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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 05:41:27
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| Give it some time, and AIs will be able to come up with good enough stories. But damn, $30/month per player? At this point, someone who wants a VG-like experience would probably rather go for a much cheaper MMORPG subscription. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jan 2023 05:42:06 |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 02:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could be mistaken, but I can't see this move being well-received by the fanbase.
I've noticed a huge surge in people checking out Pathfinder 2e. Which I'm sure is perfectly coincidental.
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 22:35:46
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They seem to still be planning to deauthorize 1.0 for all future works. Maybe this is phase II of "the big ask" tactics.
Moreover, the feedback thing sounds like a trick to me. Not many people are going to be able to read a 9000 words legalese document and provide meaningful feedback or find loopholes that WotC's lawayers will surely hide in it. At that point WotC will have a major psychological weapon on their side, i.e. "but you contributed to this document too, and you said this was ok!".
I'd still not set back for anything less than 1.0 being still in place, and the new OGL just covering 6e+ |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Jan 2023 22:53:29 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 22:46:46
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Wizbro has already tipped their hand, revealed their ultimate intent.
Whether they follow through now or later or not at all isn't really relevant anymore - the people who relied on the old OGL (the same people Wizbro is trying to screw with the new OGL) have already been planning their own OGL counterpart/replacement. A smarter, safer, cheaper alternative to dragging the "irrevocable" "de-authorized" OGL1.0a through court.
OGL 2.0 (or whatever) is coming. Wizbro might make it an evil, greedy catastrophe. Or they might make it a friendly, altruistic masterpiece. But their "target audience" have already learned that accepting it is an unacceptable and potentially costly risk. Betrayal of implied trust broke the bubble forever.
If/when there's a better alternative to OGL 2.0 then I wonder who exactly would choose to publish under OGL 2.0? WotC itself would be the only publisher interested in it (even though it doesn't apply to them), everyone else will obviously prefer the truly open, shared, perpetual, safe, and free license. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Jan 2023 23:18:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 23:38:04
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Btw, this isn't just the suits, it's also the lead game designers now.
A comment regarding the "we don't read surveys" thingy:
quote:
I worked for Wizards in 2011-2012, as a contractor in the now-defunct Game Support department. During that time we had a wall up, on which we were directed to print out and post 'feedback emails'. These emails would not be reviewed by anyone. Instead, they would be posted for us to laugh at. These emails were anything from a young child earnestly asking for us to put Batman in D&D, all the way to skilled DMs sharing issues with balance, accessibility, and content discrepancies in the hopes of improving the game. Again, these emails would be printed to make fun of. Was this a behavior that was mandated by the C-Suite executives? Of course not. Was it something other departments, including upper management, were aware of and ignored? Absolutely.
At no point in the R&D process did we review player feedback. We didn't even have feedback channels available at any of the actually important development stages! When feedback was solicited it was automatically filtered by our email system. We, the staff, literally never saw feedback unless it came through the wrong channels, at which point it would be ridiculed. I'm glad it was mentioned, but it needs to be reiterated for folks thinking this is a new trend under new leadership - it's not. WotC has a long history of not only ignoring but making a joke of player feedback, while soliciting it as a way to control communication.
Yeah man, maybe calling WotC evil isn't particularly useful, but you can't deny it makes a lot of sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Jan 2023 23:46:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 23:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
https://twitter.com/DnD_Shorts/status/1615806825198194708/photo/1
This is gold. I'm ashamed and I know it's awful of me, however I can't help but enjoy this drama.
I've known that for a long time. Back before I was banned from the WotC forums, there was a discussion on some of the free web content they gave us back then. A lot of people, myself included, were talking about article series that we'd enjoyed but had been ended.
And then I suggested that maybe WotC could do a survey, and simply ask what people wanted. I was answered almost immediately by a WotC staffer who said they didn't need surveys, they had their own ways of deciding what we wanted.
I thought that was an incredibly arrogant statement then, and I still think that.
And this was in like 2004ish. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 23:54:32
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| A fun idea could be taking the survey, typing "make 1.0 irrevocable" in every field, screenshot every answer, then send it to WotC through all possible social media. JUst to see them annoyed and unable to manipulate results. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 16:53:30
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Heh. Jo is poking fun at the dragon, too.
But also, consider: why would anyone need OGL to begin with?
Because they use some D&D materials... but they do not write for D&D settings (then they would need more than OGL).
This usually means they are churning out products that are:
A. unimaginative, generic cookie-cutter, and/or
B. so uninteresting they are likely to be purchased only when hitched to a huge bandwagon, i.e. as a form of lottery.
Does this sound like a great loss? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 19 Jan 2023 17:00:06 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 19:02:26
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quote:
they do not write for D&D settings (then they would need more than OGL).
This usually means they are churning out products that are:
A. unimaginative, generic cookie-cutter, and/or
B. so uninteresting they are likely to be purchased only when hitched to a huge bandwagon, i.e. as a form of lottery.
Does this sound like a great loss?
To be fair, most D&D stuff kinda is the definition of generic, cookie-cutter fantasy. Those creators may also be writing for their own setting, like Pathfinder does.
Regardless, that's kinda beyond the point. Setting a precedent where a company can randomly walk back on a decades old agreement, and claim to have the rights to everything that people will make (commercial or not) and have made, that just so happen to have any ties with said decades old agreement, isn't good. Setting a precedent where a company can just decide one day to put creators out of business, isn't good either.
You or I may not care about the TTRPG scene, but there are people who've been hit hard by this. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Jan 2023 19:06:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 19:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Heh. Jo is poking fun at the dragon, too.
But also, consider: why would anyone need OGL to begin with?
Because they use some D&D materials... but they do not write for D&D settings (then they would need more than OGL).
This usually means they are churning out products that are:
A. unimaginative, generic cookie-cutter, and/or
B. so uninteresting they are likely to be purchased only when hitched to a huge bandwagon, i.e. as a form of lottery.
Does this sound like a great loss?
There's a lot of value in being able to be a third-party gaming company and not having to develop and publish your own ruleset.
As Privateer Press explained it:
"The value in the OGL has never been about tapping into a free game system. The advantage to publishing under the OGL is about reaching a community that speaks a common language. This language gives players the ability to explore realms far and wide without restriction. It gives publishers the ability to introduce players to new worlds without the friction of learning a whole new language. The OGL provides the infrastructure for an ecosystem that supports community, creators, and ultimately, its origin."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 19:44:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"The value in the OGL has never been about tapping into a free game system. The advantage to publishing under the OGL is about reaching a community that speaks a common language. This language gives players the ability to explore realms far and wide without restriction. It gives publishers the ability to introduce players to new worlds without the friction of learning a whole new language. The OGL provides the infrastructure for an ecosystem that supports community, creators, and ultimately, its origin."
The main advantages of the OGL - the "language", the "community", the "infrastructure", etc - would still be provided by any open license.
But (if Wizbro has their way) the OGL is not "free" anymore. In terms of money, in terms of ownership, in terms of control.
So now it's polarizing into Wizbro vs everyone else, each side with their own "open" license. WotC's competitors are not even bothering to challenge WotC's "irrevocable" "de-authorized" OGL 1.0a - it would cost time and resources, it would never settle the conflict forever.
Wizbro screwed itself, I expect they'll get exactly what they deserve. Wizbro's competitors suffered a setback but are gaining a better foundation to stand on, I expect they'll recover and emerge stronger than before.
But what bothers me is that this polarization trickles from top to bottom. The RPG consumer just wants a good RPG product but will soon be forced to choose which one of two (legally) incompatible product lines they'll keep buying into. Consumer fragmentation always sucks, always introduces segregated fans and basic incompatibilities in what should (ideally) be a single unified market. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Jan 2023 20:41:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 20:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
So now it's polarizing into Wizbro vs everyone else, each with their own "open" license. They're not even bothering to waste time and resources challenging the "irrevocable" "de-authorized" OGL 1.0a.
It's understandable why most companies won't challenge it in court -- it's all about the money it takes to fight it.
WotC has got the financial resources to fight for years. Most other gaming companies would not be able to afford to fight that long -- so even if they had a very solid case, WotC could keep appealing until the other side ran out of money and wasn't able to fight any more. It's a preferred legal tactic, in the US, sadly -- just prolong things until one side has to drop the suit for one reason or another.
Also, even if one of these third parties was to successfully challenge WotC on this and win -- what would be the point? WotC has already shown their colors, here -- they've decided the OGL is a problem that must be removed. If they lost a court case on it, they'd simply try another tactic to get rid of it. (That's the beauty of the ORC -- that it's going to be in the hands of a non-profit and not under any company's control)
What we're looking at here is the same situation Lando Calrissian found himself in, on Bespin, in The Empire Strikes Back. WotC is Darth Vader, telling Lando that the terms of the deal have been altered. Third party gaming companies are Lando, realizing they've either got to leave the OGL behind or be forever under the Empire's boot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jan 2023 20:49:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 22:34:11
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| but does WotC get to tell Paizo.... "Paizo, I am your father"... and then chop off their hand? Does Paizo get to replace the missing hand with a cooler one? Will we find out that kobold press is Paizo's sister? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 22:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
but does WotC get to tell Paizo.... "Paizo, I am your father"... and then chop off their hand? Does Paizo get to replace the missing hand with a cooler one? Will we find out that kobold press is Paizo's sister?
Congratulations, you have made me facepalm.
(although, given the number of WotC alumns at Paizo, and the fact that Paizo made it big by capitalizing on something WotC had abandoned, it really could be said that Paizo is the offspring of WotC) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jan 2023 22:49:24 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 23:11:17
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A lot of shady stuff in there.
The deauthorisation of the OGL 1.0a is still in there, and some of the stuff on hateful content has loopholes that could go after politically divisive content.
If I wanted to publish, say, a Pride of Faerûn sourcebook that detailed queer culture in the Realms that could be something that might go after for political points in the current atmosphere having become very adversarial towards LGBTQ+ people under Republican and Conservative governments on both sides of the Atlantic. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 00:06:50
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They decide what is hateful. You have to put the badge on your product that is trademarked by WotC (could they later claim it as their content since their trademark is on it?). They are still trying to deauthorize 1.0a, and using the excuse of it being a loophole that hateful/discriminatory works could avoid the 1.2 OGL and still publish. BUT, they are releasing the base rules under Creative Commons, so people won't even need the 1.0a OGL to make a D&D-like game.
Never mind that you can't copyright or trademark game rules. That's the reason you are able to see things from The Op Games like Britney Spears Monopoly, Scooby-Doo Clue, or even DUNGEONS & DRAGONS TRIVIAL PURSUIT. Copyright law does not allow you to copyright mechanics. You can copyright "Clue", "Mr. Boddy", "Community Chest", etc. but you can't copyright going around a board, collecting money and paying rent. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 20 Jan 2023 00:07:47 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 00:41:24
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Bah!
I'm done with them.
EDIT: this is what they want for me to even sign into my Publisher's page now...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 20 Jan 2023 00:43:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 00:48:12
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| My point only being, that is already too much. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 02:32:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Well, the new OGL is out....
That is all I am going to say about it for now.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1432-starting-the-ogl-playtest
I think, had they released this version initially, that we'd not be discussing the ORC or Project Black Flag.
As others have pointed out, the part about "we decide what is bad, mmmkay?" is problematic, and I find some of the stuff about lawsuits and such questionable.*
Overall, though, I think this isn't too bad... But I also think that they're trying to undercut the ORC and Project Black Flag, and I'd not be surprised if the final version has a couple of subtle tweaks that benefit WotC and no one else. I'm disinclined to trust WotC, and I think they've got something else up their sleeve.
*I'm no lawyer and I don't play one on TV. That stuff may be boilerplate and something no lawyer would blink at. Also, I'm not a content creator and I skimmed over the file pretty quickly. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 03:11:49
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I'm also wondering if "harmful, discriminatory, or illegal content" has really been that much of an issue. I know there's been recent issues with Star Frontiers and that dude Justin LaNasa, but that seems to be over trademark infringement and blatantly racist content, and not involving the OGL in any way.
I'll ready admit to not having delved deeply into all the available OGL content, but I don't know of anything else that could be considered questionable, except maybe for The Book of Erotic Fantasy. And honestly, from flipping through that book and the 3E Book of Vile Darkness from WotC, I found the latter to have more questionable content.
(It must be noted, though: I am not the target audience for Book of Vile Darkness; I don't care for that kind of content, in any media. I had a copy of that book before the fire, but it was something I did not bother to replace. And I'm not really the target audience for The Book of Erotic Fantasy, either; if a game has to have sex, I prefer to fade to black and move onto the next thing.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 04:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What we're looking at here is the same situation Lando Calrissian found himself in, on Bespin, in The Empire Strikes Back. WotC is Darth Vader, telling Lando that the terms of the deal have been altered. Third party gaming companies are Lando, realizing they've either got to leave the OGL behind or be forever under the Empire's boot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 08:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering if "harmful, discriminatory, or illegal content" has really been that much of an issue. I know there's been recent issues with Star Frontiers and that dude Justin LaNasa, but that seems to be over trademark infringement and blatantly racist content, and not involving the OGL in any way.
I'll ready admit to not having delved deeply into all the available OGL content, but I don't know of anything else that could be considered questionable, except maybe for The Book of Erotic Fantasy. And honestly, from flipping through that book and the 3E Book of Vile Darkness from WotC, I found the latter to have more questionable content.
(It must be noted, though: I am not the target audience for Book of Vile Darkness; I don't care for that kind of content, in any media. I had a copy of that book before the fire, but it was something I did not bother to replace. And I'm not really the target audience for The Book of Erotic Fantasy, either; if a game has to have sex, I prefer to fade to black and move onto the next thing.)
Yes, it has been a problem. WotC put out a lot of content that is problematic according to their own standard. Oh wait... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 08:41:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Has anyone checked the new "draft" to see if there is anything to stop them from changing the terms again in the future.
If not then i would expect the additional charges and WoTC claim to 3rd party content to be added back in in a few months or years time.
There's nothing saying that they can't revoke the license and replace it with a different one. There's also a part about non-reliance. According to a lawyer, it means that if they revoke the license, you won't be able to say that you relied on it for your published material. As far my understanding goes, it means that if they choose to revoke this, you'll be SOL and forced to agree to the new stuff. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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"One D&D" is coming
