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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 11:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
There's nothing saying that they can't revoke the license and replace it with a different one. There's also a part about non-reliance. According to a lawyer, it means that if they revoke the license, you won't be able to say that you relied on it for your published material. As far my understanding goes, it means that if they choose to revoke this, you'll be SOL and forced to agree to the new stuff.
Or just produce stuff without using the OGL. Something about this whole mess that is kind of hilarious as I delve more and more into copyright and trademark law is that the OGL was never really necessary to begin with. WotC cannot copyright game mechanics [including] the methods, procedures, processes and routines. Not to mention that ideas aren't copyrightable either.
Sure, you can't use Melf's acid arrow, but Acidic Arrow or just Acid Arrow or Arrow of Acid are perfectly fine and not subject to copyright. Copyright simply doesn’t cover abstract systems or methods such as a game whose dice-tables follow well-established mathematical formulae to create a system for combat.
So essentially WotC put out a license to permit you to use things you already didn't need permission to use in the first place. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 14:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering if "harmful, discriminatory, or illegal content" has really been that much of an issue. I know there's been recent issues with Star Frontiers and that dude Justin LaNasa, but that seems to be over trademark infringement and blatantly racist content, and not involving the OGL in any way.
I'll ready admit to not having delved deeply into all the available OGL content, but I don't know of anything else that could be considered questionable, except maybe for The Book of Erotic Fantasy. And honestly, from flipping through that book and the 3E Book of Vile Darkness from WotC, I found the latter to have more questionable content.
(It must be noted, though: I am not the target audience for Book of Vile Darkness; I don't care for that kind of content, in any media. I had a copy of that book before the fire, but it was something I did not bother to replace. And I'm not really the target audience for The Book of Erotic Fantasy, either; if a game has to have sex, I prefer to fade to black and move onto the next thing.)
The US double standard towards sex and violence never fails to amaze me. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 15:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
There's nothing saying that they can't revoke the license and replace it with a different one. There's also a part about non-reliance. According to a lawyer, it means that if they revoke the license, you won't be able to say that you relied on it for your published material. As far my understanding goes, it means that if they choose to revoke this, you'll be SOL and forced to agree to the new stuff.
Or just produce stuff without using the OGL. Something about this whole mess that is kind of hilarious as I delve more and more into copyright and trademark law is that the OGL was never really necessary to begin with. WotC cannot copyright game mechanics [including] the methods, procedures, processes and routines. Not to mention that ideas aren't copyrightable either.
Sure, you can't use Melf's acid arrow, but Acidic Arrow or just Acid Arrow or Arrow of Acid are perfectly fine and not subject to copyright. Copyright simply doesn’t cover abstract systems or methods such as a game whose dice-tables follow well-established mathematical formulae to create a system for combat.
So essentially WotC put out a license to permit you to use things you already didn't need permission to use in the first place.
Ok, but I really doubt tens of thousands of people, including lawyers, would be saying that this is gamebreaking if you could actually just use D&D while renaming "magic missile" to "arcane bolt" and be done with it.
I suspect Wizards might have grounds to go after people who use D&D mechanics in their work if the new license passes, and even if they lost in court, the expenses would still be a huge blow to most creators. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 15:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
There's nothing saying that they can't revoke the license and replace it with a different one. There's also a part about non-reliance. According to a lawyer, it means that if they revoke the license, you won't be able to say that you relied on it for your published material. As far my understanding goes, it means that if they choose to revoke this, you'll be SOL and forced to agree to the new stuff.
Or just produce stuff without using the OGL. Something about this whole mess that is kind of hilarious as I delve more and more into copyright and trademark law is that the OGL was never really necessary to begin with. WotC cannot copyright game mechanics [including] the methods, procedures, processes and routines. Not to mention that ideas aren't copyrightable either.
Sure, you can't use Melf's acid arrow, but Acidic Arrow or just Acid Arrow or Arrow of Acid are perfectly fine and not subject to copyright. Copyright simply doesn’t cover abstract systems or methods such as a game whose dice-tables follow well-established mathematical formulae to create a system for combat.
So essentially WotC put out a license to permit you to use things you already didn't need permission to use in the first place.
Ok, but I really doubt tens of thousands of people, including lawyers, would be saying that this is gamebreaking if you could actually just use D&D while renaming "magic missile" to "arcane bolt" and be done with it.
I suspect Wizards might have grounds to go after people who use D&D mechanics in their work if the new license passes, and even if they lost in court, the expenses would still be a huge blow to most creators.
The threat of frivolous lawsuits that they know would fail but still take an exuberant amount of money is really all the leverage they would have and, honestly, I doubt they would target anyone who wasn't a serious competitor in the market.
For more info, here's a very compelling article about what we really got with the original OGL. Link |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 15:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The threat of frivolous lawsuits that they know would fail but still take an exuberant amount of money is really all the leverage they would have and, honestly, I doubt they would target anyone who wasn't a serious competitor in the market.
For more info, here's a very compelling article about what we really got with the original OGL. Link
Interesting article. So now I wonder, was the outrage more geared towards WotC breaking trust, and trying to sneakily appropriate other people's work (and then gaslighting and lying to people, or the leaks about them seeing their own customers as obstacles)?
I guess that may be the case at this point. Though I must say that the potential of Wizards being able to target anyone, regardless of size, could easily fee like a sword of Damocles to people whose job is on the line, and is also scummy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Jan 2023 15:40:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 16:08:52
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Apparently, this thing is full of shady loopholes that allow them more scummy stuff, according to a lawyer's analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DKTKI_Kr5k |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 16:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
There's nothing saying that they can't revoke the license and replace it with a different one. There's also a part about non-reliance. According to a lawyer, it means that if they revoke the license, you won't be able to say that you relied on it for your published material. As far my understanding goes, it means that if they choose to revoke this, you'll be SOL and forced to agree to the new stuff.
Or just produce stuff without using the OGL. Something about this whole mess that is kind of hilarious as I delve more and more into copyright and trademark law is that the OGL was never really necessary to begin with. WotC cannot copyright game mechanics [including] the methods, procedures, processes and routines. Not to mention that ideas aren't copyrightable either.
Sure, you can't use Melf's acid arrow, but Acidic Arrow or just Acid Arrow or Arrow of Acid are perfectly fine and not subject to copyright. Copyright simply doesn’t cover abstract systems or methods such as a game whose dice-tables follow well-established mathematical formulae to create a system for combat.
So essentially WotC put out a license to permit you to use things you already didn't need permission to use in the first place.
Ok, but I really doubt tens of thousands of people, including lawyers, would be saying that this is gamebreaking if you could actually just use D&D while renaming "magic missile" to "arcane bolt" and be done with it.
I suspect Wizards might have grounds to go after people who use D&D mechanics in their work if the new license passes, and even if they lost in court, the expenses would still be a huge blow to most creators.
The threat of frivolous lawsuits that they know would fail but still take an exuberant amount of money is really all the leverage they would have and, honestly, I doubt they would target anyone who wasn't a serious competitor in the market.
For more info, here's a very compelling article about what we really got with the original OGL. Link
As I mentioned before, Hasbro isn't able to sue those people that are using their game mechanics, or the -OPOLY game company would have been shut down over a decade ago. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 18:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering if "harmful, discriminatory, or illegal content" has really been that much of an issue. I know there's been recent issues with Star Frontiers and that dude Justin LaNasa, but that seems to be over trademark infringement and blatantly racist content, and not involving the OGL in any way.
I'll ready admit to not having delved deeply into all the available OGL content, but I don't know of anything else that could be considered questionable, except maybe for The Book of Erotic Fantasy. And honestly, from flipping through that book and the 3E Book of Vile Darkness from WotC, I found the latter to have more questionable content.
(It must be noted, though: I am not the target audience for Book of Vile Darkness; I don't care for that kind of content, in any media. I had a copy of that book before the fire, but it was something I did not bother to replace. And I'm not really the target audience for The Book of Erotic Fantasy, either; if a game has to have sex, I prefer to fade to black and move onto the next thing.)
The US double standard towards sex and violence never fails to amaze me.
The Book of Vile Darkness isn't just violence. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with it before jumping to conclusions.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 18:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
As I said, its evil hasbro being evil.
They arent protecting their IP at all (it already has the maximum level of protection they are legally allowed). They are trying to steal other peoples work, like those patent companies that pay for patents on nonsense and then sue everything that has a vague resemblance to their patent.
Is it possible for you to go even one day without acting like a corporation is being actively malicious, instead of just having greedy leadership?  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 20:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not sure there is a difference. Malicious greed at the expense of others is still malicious.
A business trying to make more money is not malicious. Their tactics may be shady, immoral, or even illegal, but businesses exist to make money and trying to make more is not evil.
And it's leadership pushing this. The company is not some sentient entity that decided to do this, it's some people at the top.
You want to call WotC execs evil? I won't say a word -- unless it's done ad nauseum, like your attacks on WotC as a whole.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 02:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Apparently, this thing is full of shady loopholes that allow them more scummy stuff, according to a lawyer's analysis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DKTKI_Kr5k
That's a good analysis. I'd noticed some of the vagueness, but not being a lawyer, I obviously missed a lot. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 02:31:49
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Spitting in the wind, I'm sure, but I've made my opinion clear.
My final comment to them:
quote:
The OGL 1.0a should not be revoked.
WotC was once a company ran by gamers for gamers. Now it's run by corporate execs for shareholder profits, and it shows both in the quality of material put out and in anti-industry moves like this one.
Once upon a time, I could not give WotC my money quickly enough. Now, my gaming money flows to other companies. It is clear that WotC intends to change this not by offering quality content, but by hamstringing and destroying any competition.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 04:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The OGL 1.2 survey is live.
Given their already-stated stance on surveys, though, it's prolly just for show.
Yes, and I would not be surprised if the community accepted a bad offer simply on the basis that it's better than the last one. Consumers are notoriously bad about these things, just as they are bad at maintaining their outrage when it interferes with their vices. Really all WotC needs to do in this case is let a little time pass then announce a shiny new product that will capture their audience's attention and put the OGL thing out of everyone's mind. Then they can revoke the OGL and sneak in a new one while everyone is distracted. Creators will continue to raise heck but -- hey, SHINY NEW PRODUCT! |
Edited by - HighOne on 21 Jan 2023 04:17:00 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 04:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Spitting in the wind, I'm sure, but I've made my opinion clear.
My final comment to them:
quote:
The OGL 1.0a should not be revoked.
WotC was once a company ran by gamers for gamers. Now it's run by corporate execs for shareholder profits, and it shows both in the quality of material put out and in anti-industry moves like this one.
Once upon a time, I could not give WotC my money quickly enough. Now, my gaming money flows to other companies. It is clear that WotC intends to change this not by offering quality content, but by hamstringing and destroying any competition.
I made a LOT of comments, but the final one was similar to yours. I included about how I was looking forward to seeing the movie on the opening weekend, but this whole situation has now made me change my mind and wait for it to be free on a streaming platform. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 04:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The OGL 1.2 survey is live.
Given their already-stated stance on surveys, though, it's prolly just for show.
Yes, and I would not be surprised if the community accepted a bad offer simply on the basis that it's better than the last one. Consumers are notoriously bad about these things, just as they are bad at maintaining their outrage when it interferes with their vices. Really all WotC needs to do in this case is let a little time pass then announce a shiny new product that will capture their audience's attention and put the OGL thing out of everyone's mind. Then they can revoke the OGL and sneak in a new one while everyone is distracted. Creators will continue to raise heck but -- hey, SHINY NEW PRODUCT!
The only thing is, they haven't made any good shiny new products in a while. Curse of Strahd came out, they had to pull it back due to the Romani stereotypes. Spelljammer came out, they had to pull it back due to the Hadozee stereotypes. Dragonlance came out, but since Hickman & Weiss weren't involved, there hasn't been that much interest.
The best products coming out have been produced by the 3PP, which is why they were going for the money grab. They won't pay freelancers well enough to make good material, and it shows. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2023 : 05:11:42
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And Spelljammer was by no stretch of the imagination a good product -- one review described it as a "campaign setting without the setting." The Dragonlance one, I don't have and can't comment on -- but going back to the exact same time and place we first learned of the setting, 30 or more years ago, is just tweaking old content.
I'll agree that outrage is hard to sustain, but I think WotC really stepped on it, here, and that waiting it out is going to take longer than they're willing to take -- especially with more than 1500 companies committing to ORC and the strong interest in a ruleset that isn't D&D. WotC has made a lot of missteps over the years, and even letting the outrage die down won't make people think more favorably about WotC. If ORC lives up to its promise -- and I see no reason to expect otherwise -- people will happily embrace it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 06:24:04
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But again I ask ...
We can scrutinize and analyze Wizbro's treacherous legal language all we like, but who cares about any cost, limits, restrictions, problems, and loopholes built into Wizbro's new OGL other than Wizbro itself?
This entire OGL debacle revealed Wizbro's unethical intentions and motivated everyone else in the industry to create their own shared open license(s). Nobody will publish under Wizbro's OGL anymore when they have access to a better alternative. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 07:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But again I ask ...
We can scrutinize and analyze Wizbro's treacherous legal language all we like, but who cares about any cost, limits, restrictions, problems, and loopholes built into Wizbro's new OGL other than Wizbro itself?
This entire OGL debacle revealed Wizbro's unethical intentions and motivated everyone else in the industry to create their own shared open license(s). Nobody will publish under Wizbro's OGL anymore when they have access to a better alternative.
Eh, I've seen a few people thinking that this version is a step in the right direction, which implies that they could consider signing a future version of the OGL. Though, thinking about it, it probably doesn't make sense to post it here. Guess I did so because this is the only place where I'm active. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 13:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But again I ask ...
We can scrutinize and analyze Wizbro's treacherous legal language all we like, but who cares about any cost, limits, restrictions, problems, and loopholes built into Wizbro's new OGL other than Wizbro itself?
This entire OGL debacle revealed Wizbro's unethical intentions and motivated everyone else in the industry to create their own shared open license(s). Nobody will publish under Wizbro's OGL anymore when they have access to a better alternative.
Eh, I've seen a few people thinking that this version is a step in the right direction, which implies that they could consider signing a future version of the OGL. Though, thinking about it, it probably doesn't make sense to post it here. Guess I did so because this is the only place where I'm active.
There are quite a few of the "celebrity" gamers (not actual celebrities, but known for gaming) that have commented that this is a step in the right direction. And it comes down to this: D&D is the "known" brand. If you tell a random stranger you play Pathfinder or Fate or Blades in the Dark, they smile and back away. Even I'm guilty of telling people I play D&D to explain gaming, even though the last time I threw dice in a D&D game was over a decade ago. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 14:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But again I ask ...
We can scrutinize and analyze Wizbro's treacherous legal language all we like, but who cares about any cost, limits, restrictions, problems, and loopholes built into Wizbro's new OGL other than Wizbro itself?
This entire OGL debacle revealed Wizbro's unethical intentions and motivated everyone else in the industry to create their own shared open license(s). Nobody will publish under Wizbro's OGL anymore when they have access to a better alternative.
Eh, I've seen a few people thinking that this version is a step in the right direction, which implies that they could consider signing a future version of the OGL. Though, thinking about it, it probably doesn't make sense to post it here. Guess I did so because this is the only place where I'm active.
It is a step in the right direction -- but only a step. It remains to be seen if WotC will take any more steps in the right direction.
But even if they do, the damage is done. They may get some people aboard their new OGL, but they've destroyed a lot of their trust and faith in the overall gaming community. It's going to be a long time before people trust WotC not to try something shady. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 15:24:38
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There's a Twitter response to some of the rumors:
quote:
Hey, everyone. We’ve seen misinformation popping up, and want to address it directly so we can dispel your concerns.
Rumors of a $30 subscription fee are false.
No one at Wizards is working on AI DMs. We love our human DMs too much. If you’re looking for a DM, we suggest heading to our Discord where DMs and parties are looking for players.
We have designers whose core job it is to compile, analyze, and then act upon your feedback. Your feedback has made the game better over the past decade, and your feedback is central to D&D’s future.
Homebrewing is core to D&D Beyond. It's not going away, and we're not going to charge you for it. Your homebrew is, and always will be, yours. We’ve always been excited to see your creations both on and off D&D Beyond!
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 15:47:24
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That is nice an all but, as you yourself said, that trust is now severely damaged. They wanted control of all things D&D. They may have got their wish by destroying the ecosystem that is what made it great.
Edit: Fixed the wording that my pre-caffeine brain said looked great. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 22 Jan 2023 16:14:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 16:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That is nice an all but, as you yourself said, that trust is now severely damaged. They wanted to control of all things D&D. They may have got their wish by destroying the ecosystem that is what made it great.
Indeed.
And some of the responses I saw, in regard to that Tweet, were good indicators of that shattered trust.
One person pointed out that $29.95 is not $30 (I've always hated it when companies pull that particular trick).
Someone else said that Wizards didn't have to work on AI DMs -- they could outsource it.
And another person said that just because feedback is looked at and analyzed, it doesn't prove they're not spinning it to suit themselves or applying it in ways that are free from bias. A great example is the feedback against revoking the OGL 1.0a -- feedback that WotC is clearly not responding to. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2023 : 17:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is a step in the right direction -- but only a step. It remains to be seen if WotC will take any more steps in the right direction.
Not really, anything that deauthorizes the previous OGL is the same crap. OGL 1.2 in particular is still very malicious--yes, malicious--it's just better packaged horsedung. They're even slimier than before, because they've upped their deception game.
Not that much, though, they're still very hamfisted in regards to major points. For example, they gave themselves the right to cancel you because they don't like you--not even your content, you as a person and your everyday activities.
At this point, however, it seems to me that the community has lost. I guess this is a game that can only be won by not playing--as soon as people start providing feedback that isn't "make 1.0a irrevocable", it's a slippery slope from there. And if D&D personalities start saying that 1.2 is a step, you know tons of people will follow suit. Moreover, WotC still has the right to replace this new license with their original intent once it's approved.
WotC execs may very well be right that this is just a temporary fad and things will return to normal quite soon. For example, I expect most people to entirely forget about this once the movie drops. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Jan 2023 18:06:57 |
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"One D&D" is coming
