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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:18:46
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| So just curious, could this mean they might be able to cut into profits of things like "Stranger Things" if they got this passed? (which for all I know, they already do get some cut from that in order to make references to the game). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Jan 2023 18:20:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And I don't see how WotC could possibly try legal maneuvers to stop this. It's going to be a competing system, and non-D&D competing game systems have existed for almost as long as D&D has.
Legal conflicts on this scale don't have to be resolved by formal legal judgements. They just have to stay in court long enough to bleed the weaker opponent dry. Wizbro seems like it would be antagonistic and tenacious, willing to hurt itself if its destroys those it believes are trespassers on its property.
The thing is, there is absolutely no legal standing at all for them to try to stop ORC. It'd be like Ford suing Chevy because Ford was making cars first but now they both do. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:30:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl
Tons of lies, patronizing/gaslighting, and as the icing on the cake we have this:
quote:
Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This stuff is FAR more entertaining that any storyline they've managed to come up with.
They also claim it was just a draft and that they were going to solicit feedback -- despite the leaks saying "you have a week to sign up" and them already distributing the OGL 1.1 with licenses.
Either way, WotC has blinked. But the damage is done, and no one is going to trust them for a long time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So just curious, could this mean they might be able to cut into profits of things like "Stranger Things" if they got this passed? (which for all I know, they already do get some cut from that in order to make references to the game).
No, because it was a TV show and had nothing to do with the OGL. The only money WotC could get from that was from that boxed set they did, and whatever agreement was already in place allowing the use of D&D content in the show. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl
Tons of lies, patronizing/gaslighting, and as the icing on the cake we have this:
quote:
Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This stuff is FAR more entertaining that any storyline they've managed to come up with.
*wipes away a tear* What they said was beautiful. Just heartwarmingly beautiful. To commemorate the event, I would like to get that printed on some toilet paper. You know, just to commemorate their love letter to the community... |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:39:53
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| I just realized... They make a point of saying "Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected. " -- but they specifically don't say that the 1.0a version will remain valid. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jan 2023 18:40:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 18:54:30
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| Yes, they apparently still intend to revoke 1.0. They also lie about 1.1 being a draft (it was sent to creators with contracts attached and a deadline--Jan 13th--and Kickstarter also signed an agreement based on it). They lie about their intent (if they wanted to get feedback, why was it leaked? Why didn't they just ask? Why was the deadline so early)? And they're trying to spin it all as a "we did it for you, the community", which is gaslighting at its finest. I don't know if they can recover from this, tbh. One thing is certain, though: they firmly established themselves as spiteful clowns. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Jan 2023 19:02:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:11:18
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Software creators have learned what can happen when they rely on licenses written by others.
That's why the licenses themselves have evolved into a formal hierarchy of many options, balances, advantages, disadvantages, and caveats to select between.
I think "open" and "copyleft" licenses are now a fairly mature legal arena. They have a certain language (similar to patents) which is exacting in how generically and in how specifically it is worded.
And I think these licenses are just like patents in practical terms. They're not at all a guarantee to success and wealth. They're just the first document you need to provide when you confront transgressors in a courtroom. And they're just paper tigers if you're unwilling to escalate to the courtroom at all.
If Wizbro smells big money then they'll drag things to court, no doubt. And they'll spend whatever it takes to take a cut of that money or to ruin those who've "stolen" it from them. I hope something like the ORC does happen because if Wizbro takes their OGL claims to court often enough then they'll eventually win and get what they want, one way or another.
It seems reckless to rely on Wizbro-authored licenses if you plan to continue operating as one of their competitors. It wasn't always that way, but recent publicity has made it obvious that playing their game means letting them win. Wizbro has established quite a history of being vindictive, territorial, deceptive, and covertly hostile - why would anyone be surprised that Wizbro is also revealing itself to be opportunistic and treacherous? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2023 19:28:20 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, they apparently still intend to revoke 1.0. They also lie about 1.1 being a draft (it was sent to creators with contracts attached and a deadline--Jan 13th--and Kickstarter also signed an agreement based on it). They lie about their intent (if they wanted to get feedback, why was it leaked? Why didn't they just ask? Why was the deadline so early)? And they're trying to spin it all as a "we did it for you, the community", which is gaslighting at its finest. I don't know if they can recover from this, tbh. One thing is certain, though: they firmly established themselves as spiteful clowns.
This sums up my feelings. There's no going back now. If third-party creators give up on the ORC idea and go back to using the OGL after concessions from WotC, they're only going to regret it later. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It seems reckless to rely on Wizbro-authored licenses if you plan to continue operating as one of their competitors. It wasn't always that way, but recent publicity has made it obvious that playing their game means letting them win. Wizbro has established quite a history of being vindictive, territorial, deceptive, and covertly hostile
Well said. Relying on a megacorporation's generosity is never a good business practice especially when, as you say, you are their competitor. Third-party publishers are lucky the relationship lasted as long as it did. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:42:58
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Maybe we can hope that we'll start to see RPG products drop in price.
$100+ for a beautiful hardcopy sourcebook is just too much. $500+ for a set of a few of these books (along with a pretty box, some dice, and maybe various cardboard cutout things) is also far too much.
And similar prices for eBook versions - intangible, sometimes ephemeral books you need electricity to read - is even more ludicrous.
You need a variety of sourcebooks to play the game, enough to easily turn it into a $$$$ hobby. And I'm an old guy with sufficient disposable income - how could "young adults" afford these things? Any kids I know would rather I buy them a $$$$ smartphone or XBox or whatever than a $$$$ tabletop game.
Although of course prices would never decrease if Wizbro's "royalties" had to be included. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2023 20:00:15 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1423-an-update-on-the-open-game-license-ogl
Tons of lies, patronizing/gaslighting, and as the icing on the cake we have this:
quote:
Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This stuff is FAR more entertaining that any storyline they've managed to come up with.
That who won/lost statement they put in there is just wow. What a way to try to take the voice away from the community and tell them their efforts were what, pointless?
It's crazy. Bonkers. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 19:59:01
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| They wrote, like, 3-4 paragraphs? And yet they've somehow managed to cram so many megacorp villain clichés in such a small wordcount. I mean, you have to try REALLY hard to achieve that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 20:12:18
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Yeah, that "who won/lost" statement really makes them look like a$$es who have to always have the last word.
Just curious, what's this ORC idea? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 20:47:32
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quote:
Just curious, what's this ORC idea?
The "Open RPG Creative License"
It was announced very recently but is apparently still under construction, so details are still sparse and speculative.
https://www.polygon.com/23553389/dnd-ogl-paizo-orc-open-rpg-creative-license-announcement
It's delightful news. But I'm still a little apprehensive - because I've seen other "open RPG" and "universal RPG" attempts to define systems (like GURPS, Palladium, Rifts, OSRIC, OpenD6) which ended up becoming diluted, disjointed, generic rules environments without enough unifying theme to find wide appeal. People never seem to stay interested in these very long, admittedly because there's often no real support for these products other than a glut of fan materials lacking in consistent quality. When you buy into an "official" RPG product then you're guaranteed to find professional standards - even the worst WotC product will tend to have a pleasing veneer and a decent level of readability, playability, balance, etc. With fan materials you usually have to sort through mountains of trash before finding some precious gems, it wastes time both on and off the gaming table.
And sometimes the details which define the official IP - the specific characters, classes, skills, perks, spells, items, monsters, settings, conflicts, naratives, etc - are hard to give up. They can be replaced, but it's just not the same. The Realms has intrinsic qualities that generic D&D-like fantasy settings lack. Star Wars and Star Trek are just not the same when you replace things like ships and droids and phasers and lightsabers and Starfleet and the Evil Galactic Empire with generic and derivative sci-fi equivalents. I suppose WotC has made things a little easier for us, though, since they've been eroding unique qualities in their own IP with generic (or stolen!) features over the years anyhow.
Maybe things will be different this time ... publishers like Paizo and Kobold are far more qualified than the usual hordes of half-talented internet amateurs. They know this meta-game well enough that they're apparently writing their own rules for it now. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2023 21:16:59 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 21:18:56
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| Whatever happened to the ORC ORC ORC poster from 10 or so years back? He or she will be delighted that Paizo nicknamed it's license ORC!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 21:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Just curious, what's this ORC idea?
The "Open RPG Creative License"
It was announced very recently but is apparently still under construction, so details are still sparse and speculative.
https://www.polygon.com/23553389/dnd-ogl-paizo-orc-open-rpg-creative-license-announcement
It's delightful news. But I'm still a little apprehensive - because I've seen other "open RPG" and "universal RPG" attempts to define systems (like GURPS, Palladium, Rifts, OSRIC, OpenD6) which ended up becoming diluted, disjointed, generic rules environments without enough unifying theme to find wide appeal. People never seem to stay interested in these very long, admittedly because there's often no real support for these products other than a glut of fan materials lacking in consistent quality. When you buy into an "official" RPG product then you're guaranteed to find professional standards - even the worst WotC product will tend to have a pleasing veneer and a decent level of readability, playability, balance, etc. With fan materials you usually have to sort through mountains of trash before finding some precious gems, it wastes time both on and off the gaming table.
I don't think either of these things are issues. Sure, this is an open RPG effort, but it's not one company trying to throw it out into an already crowded marketplace -- this is a lot of the sellers in the marketplace coming together to make it. These are some of the biggest (non-WotC) names in TTRPGs.
It's going to do the same thing the original OGL did: it's going to allow companies to focus on the creative side without having to focus on the nuts and bolts. Some of these companies only exist because of the OGL, and they've put out some very good stuff. I expect more of the same, just with a different common ruleset. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2023 : 22:15:44
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New ruleset ...
Will they provide mechanics for backward-compatibility? A way to convert and migrate existing characters, monsters, etc forward to the new system? A way to continue using all those sourcebooks, adventures, modules, spells, items already accumulated over the years while playing the previous system? Indeed, would doing this violate the terms of Wizbro's new OGL?
Or we each require a new DMG, a new PHB, new monster books, new modules?
I know nobody knows the answer to these questions yet. The information is just not available at this time.
But I think it's an important answer because it will determine whether people can continue using their collection of old OGL materials or if they have to basically buy everything all over again. I doubt the ORC publishers would want to abandon all their old products or to rely on the "D&D community" to support them during this potentially ugly licensing crisis. I doubt people who've already collected a lot of OGL products would be willing to abandon the system, either ... and for many of them the natural transition forward would actually be towards WotC's product line. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2023 : 02:11:18
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| The ORC is not bringing everyone in to one mechanics/rules. It's established so if one of the group publishes rules/mechanics under the ORC, others can use them to publish Open Games. Pathfinder will still be Pathfinder, Kobold Press is creating their own, etc. With the ORC, people can publish Pathfinder books, or Kobold Press books, or any of the publishers' books, and it's protected like the Creative Commons organization/network. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2023 : 15:57:19
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| What I find "amusing" is that I have seen more than a handful of articles from different sites claiming that WotC has backed off on OGL 1.1 and attribute that to their statement. Did they read a different statement than the one I did? How did they come to that conclusion? Are they that accepting of every statement made by every company? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2023 : 17:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
What I find "amusing" is that I have seen more than a handful of articles from different sites claiming that WotC has backed off on OGL 1.1 and attribute that to their statement. Did they read a different statement than the one I did? How did they come to that conclusion? Are they that accepting of every statement made by every company?
Well, one of the things I read was that the new one, whenever they come out with it, will be OGL 2.0 instead of 1.1. This would, technically, be backing off from the OGL 1.1.
And WotC has promised to drop the license back provision and royalties -- and those were two of the biggest concerns.
Sure, the company has lied before -- like in their statement that the OGL 1.1 was a draft -- but it's a hell of a lot easier to call a company out for lying when there's an official statement like this that can be referenced.
While I -- and I'm sure many others -- expect more shenanigans, this is a victory. Maybe a temporary one, but it is a victory. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2023 : 18:35:04
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I'm going to wait it out. See if Wizbro still pushes their real intentions through once the hype dies down and attentions have moved onto other things. Even if these other things are invented by Wizbro with the deliberate purpose of decoy and distraction.
I suspect I'm not alone. There seems to be a lot of interested observers and commentators out there, just waiting for their opportunity to be the first to post the news onto a stream or blog. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2023 : 18:58:49
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| One thing I've seen a number of YouTubers and such mention (and I totally agree with) is that most higher-up muckity-mucks take the approach to stay quiet for a number of days, and then quietly release the "new" item when they think the fervor and ire of the internet has died down or been distracted by the next shiny thing. Unfortunately for them, gaming grognards aren't ones to forget or get distracted like most social media junkies. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2023 : 18:01:13
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I was just re-reading the Privateer Press statement on the OGL 1.1, and there's one part that I think really describes the original OGL quite well:
"The value in the OGL has never been about tapping into a free game system. The advantage to publishing under the OGL is about reaching a community that speaks a common language. This language gives players the ability to explore realms far and wide without restriction. It gives publishers the ability to introduce players to new worlds without the friction of learning a whole new language. The OGL provides the infrastructure for an ecosystem that supports community, creators, and ultimately, its origin." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 01:04:58
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| Well they looked me out already, charging a fee will not effect me. However it does appear to be a poor policy move, it might generate income or reduce costs of maintaining their sites (Fewer users less cost to maintain). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 02:09:26
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| I could be mistaken, but I can't see this move being well-received by the fanbase. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 03:40:35
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The AI DMs actually might work, considering hpw hard some people have funding a DM, or the rarer good DM. People might pay for the DM/
It still does not change I do not have the correct internet accounts to subscribe, unless they change that.
It might be interesting to hear how it works, after all 4th edition online tabletop became vaporware . |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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"One D&D" is coming
