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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2023 :  03:30:21  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Irennan,

lol... I love your post overall.

quote:
"All you have created using the permission that we gave you for the past 20 years now belongs to us, because we say so. Also, made a good product? Are you a fan that created something cool? Too bad, now it's ours, and if you were selling it, we'll steal it from you and sell it ourselves. Sucks to be you LMAO"


If fandom had even a hint of a spine enough to pursue this issue with significant effort, WotC might fold. The sad, storied history of fandom though is that they are loud, low commitment level people that either go away because they realize there will truly never be a movement to usurp 'x' bad guy (in this case WotC), or they just blather on for a bit on social media to a point of having zero effect, and the company continues to do exactly what they intended to do while fandom has a big ole glass of deal with it.

quote:
This sh*tshow makes me even happier that my group got bored of D&D tropes a *long* time ago, and decided to ditch the system altogether.


My group still uses 3.5/PF1. We're good. I've owned the entire FR collection for a while now, and I just use everything there is, because let's face it: 4e/5e is a garbage dump of non-Realms lore material. Nothing good from a lore perspective, so keeping the previous system works beautifully.

Best case scenario I think here is that both camps entrench themselves firmly, enough financial damage is done with Hasbro's bad financial situation, and in the tanking of it all, someone buys up D&D in the fire sale as happened with TSR & WotC.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2023 :  06:31:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They might go after Paizo and anything 3pp based on 3.5e, as those both use the original OGL. This won't take away your books ofc, but it may impact the availability of new products made for those systems. Ofc, there already is a wealth of material for them, so it's probably whatever for the DMs/players that use PF/3.5e. Creators will suffer a lot, though.

As for fandoms, it may look like the 4e debacle, but possibly worse. If I read the article right, the new OGL will prevent anyone from providing new material for the "old" 5e system as alternative to 6e, as it will force anyone wanting to prublish stuff from 5e (or older editions) from now onward to accept blatantly idiotic terms, that no one would accept. And even if someone were to accept those terms and grew to be a major alternative to 6e (like Pathfinder did during the 4e time), WotC would own all they created, and they would have waived any right to sue.

But there's a possiblity that they're just using the "big ask" trick (ask for unreasonable stuff, FAR more than you actually want to get, then pretend to be conceding and compromising till you reach what you actually planned on getting, while also looking like the good guy). Even if they are, I can only raise my eyebrows at people still willing to support WotC after this.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jan 2023 06:39:33
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2023 :  07:42:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They wont look like the good guy, most people with half a brain know the smoke and mirrors tactics that companies and politicians use by now.

Poop sticks (and stinks) forever.

There is a reason why WoTC still dont have a present at Gencon (not since 4e days i believe), because they cannot justify their actions and people still have not forgotten or forgiven.

Yes there is a new generation of fans that dont know about the 4e debacle, but they are learning that Wizbro are not the good guys (can anyone name a big business that is?).

Thankfully, as a general rule, rpg fans tend to be more intellectual in their thinking and so are more likely to spot evil for what it is and remember the evil actions of others.


Hasbro are in financial trouble (and yes, in big business you can be making a profit and still be in financial trouble thanks to shareholder expectations and profit forecasts and shareprice, etc). WoTC are now a major money maker for them and it looks like corporate greed might just have sunk its own ship yet again. I'm sure many fans might cancel the super new expensive movie due out because of this debacle, 6e might tank as well, and existing fans might desert to rivals. There are only so many financial shocks a business can take before its shareprice nosedives and the auditers move in and start selling off assets and IP.

An event i'm somewhat looking forward to, because we couldnt have a worse owner of the Forgotten Realms IP than what we currently have.

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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3240 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2023 :  11:11:23  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm pretty sure even the law is up for sale to the highest bidder these days (especially non criminal related laws).

Unless someone can out I'd Hasbro and its ultra rich share holders, this wont go the way people hope.

I'm pretty sure Paizo and Critical Role have enough money and enough at stake to take on a corp of Hasbro's size.

Oh, by the way, registering your product with WotC and reporting it to them? That gives them the right to reprint your stuff in one of their books without giving you credit or royalty. Hence why CR will want to fight it (with Amazon's backing, possibly).

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

Ashe's Character Sheet

Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2023 :  12:19:41  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So due to any resale of the Knights of the Old Republic video game and KotOR 2 - at a value of $14.99 on the Play Stor- does that mean that Disney would get involved since those games are based off the OGL1.0a?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  06:14:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC could easily negotiate stuff with Disney and CR, or even give them conditions equal to OGL 1.0. I doubt they're THAT shortsighted.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 10 Jan 2023 08:46:37
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  07:10:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never underestimate the stupidity of big business.

Lawyers and accountants never make good decisions longterm

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  08:48:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In that case it'll be popcorn time for us, but if D&D actually goes down, Hasbro may decide to just shelve it, and tons of creators would lose their income--which sucks.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 10 Jan 2023 08:49:59
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  09:05:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hasbro are in trouble, especially with WoTC now being their major source of revenue (from WoTC being one of the lowest sources of income a few years ago). THe oncoming recession / depression will make this worse (who can afford to spend £60-80 on a boardgame these days)

If the shareholders decide that Hasbro is no longer financially viable, they will call in the auditors and Hasbro will be sold off into smaller companies with their own portfolios. D&D might be one such entity, Magic the Gathering may be a separate company. The auditors already proposed Hasbro sell off WoTC and D&D but it refused (presumably with shareholder backing), but that suggestion looks more likely to take place if Hasbro perform poorly.

It is doubtful the existing directors and CEOs of WoTC would remain, as new shareholders would be found for the new companies and they would quickly appoint new directors to revitalise the product / brand.

Hasbro doesnt have to be losing money for this scenario to occur, it just has to fail to meet its revenue and profit forecasts enough times for shareholders to feel they will not be making maximum profits.

Hasbro are not the secure monopoly they were 10 years ago, and I doubt they can afford to sit on IPs and starve them of attention only to reboot them much, much later.

Of course i could be wrong, but modern history has shown us that nothing lasts forever and corporations are especially vulnerable during recession times.

I personally want D&D under new ownership, i havent liked WoTC's actions since they suddenly removed access to pdfs that were already paid for or freely available some 20 years ago.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  10:51:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
D&D going to someone else would definitely be an improvement, as long as it continues to thrive. Or maybe the tabletop hobby as a whole would benefit from it dying off, as people would be more willing to try more and more systems and narratives. OTOH, as I said, D&D dying off means tons of people without a job, so let's just hope it passes to a company that has writers who can... you know, write.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  14:53:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not convinced that online petitions are worth the paper they're not printed on, but it doesn't hurt to share this one...

https://www.opendnd.games/


quote:
#OpenDnD is a rallying cry under which creators and fans have unified to demand that WotC revoke the draconian 1.1 OGL and pledge to support the existing 1.0 OGL into future editions of their games. This isn’t an opportunity to litigate and tinker with a new license, but to return to the values of open gaming. Our community deserves an open future if we want our favorite games to not only survive, but thrive!!

If you are a creator, #DontSign the new agreement. If you love roleplaying games, let WotC know we won't support them without an #OpenDnD!

WotC has shown that they are the dragon on top of the hoard, willing to burn the thriving village if only to get a few more gold pieces. It’s time for us to band together as adventurers to defend our village from the terrible wyrm.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  15:09:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given their repeated abuses of trust and tendency to ignore previous agreements, I would be hesitant to believe anything WoTC promised.

Far more effective to vote with ones wallet and force change that way.

If oned&d is not the success WoTC have promised its paren corporation and shareholders I do not see a future for them.

Of course, a petition is not going to hurt, but i would expect any agreed principle to last 3-5 years tops before they renege on it.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  16:53:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Never underestimate the stupidity of big business.

Lawyers and accountants never make good decisions longterm

I disagree. Lawyers and accountants tend to be given limited decision-making powers outside of legal or accounting firms.

It is the executives and managerials who make the decisions, who define the objectives, who direct and allocate the resources, who implement the policies. Many of these are good decisions, after all the Powers That Be must generally have enough competence to attain and sustain their lofty high-salary positions. But some of these are bad decisions, some are even awful decisions, driven by ignorance and arrogance and greed.

[/Ayrik]
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  22:02:47  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kobold Press has announced that they are going to stop producing stuff for D&D because of OGL1.1 and make their own RPG.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/dungeons-and-dragons-publisher-kobold-press-making-new-roleplaying-system/ar-AA16behQ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=c0b7fcb928654730a1fbe2e54eb21a88


"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2023 :  23:08:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More on the Kobold Press thing: https://koboldpress.com/raising-our-flag/

quote:
As we look ahead, it becomes even more important for our actions to represent our values. While we wait to see what the future holds, we are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.


There's a link on their page where you can sign up for announcements and playtesting.

I have two thoughts:

1. Holy carp, shots fired!

2. WotC is, once again, through their own missteps, creating a competitor. I'd be really surprised if other companies don't get involved in Project Black Flag.

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Scots Dragon
Seeker

United Kingdom
86 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  02:21:01  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Matt Colville has just announced on a stream that he'll also be making his own RPG.

Given the de facto monopoly D&D has had on the industry over the past few years, I can't help but see some of this as a good thing. The hobby finally being able to diversify and break WotC's stranglehold is a godsend.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  02:35:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon

Matt Colville has just announced on a stream that he'll also be making his own RPG.

Given the de facto monopoly D&D has had on the industry over the past few years, I can't help but see some of this as a good thing. The hobby finally being able to diversify and break WotC's stranglehold is a godsend.



It's going to be tough to break that stranglehold. D&D may or may not the best ruleset, but they've got the name recognition going for them. Fifty years of near-total dominance carries a weight all its own, and something like that isn't easily overcome. Even when Paizo was outselling WotC during the days of 4E, it didn't last long.

Also, this makes at least three announcements that I know of, where they've said "screw this, we're going our own way." More options is great, but all these known designers going their own way is going to further divide the non-D&D market. They're going to be competing with each other, as well as with WotC. It'd be better to get all these folks working together.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jan 2023 02:38:54
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  04:50:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Saw this suggestion on the Twitter...

quote:
Since offices just opened on the West Coast, it's a great time to call WotC and share your respectful concerns about the reported changes to the OGL.

Wizards HQ: 425-226-6500
Toll-free: 800-324-6496
Investor relations: 401-431-8697

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  04:56:21  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder if all these variant D&D-like game systems will fragment the D&D market. The same way Android OS has become a fragmented market - where consumers must sometimes make device choices based on app/software (in)compatibilities.

Or perhaps these new game systems will evolve the market. Make "D&D" more into a generic idea than a specific branded IP and product line. I genuinely hope this will happen - that Wizbro will fail to adapt and become another fossil drowned in the tarpits - because I think their talented and passionate staff will still be able to find or create work in other places. Those who lack the passion and talent can take their smooth-brained jealousy, blunders, legal insults, and microtransactions elsewhere.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Jan 2023 05:06:05
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  07:16:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cancel culture is still the best tool a group of consumers possesses. It just requires a little coordination and solidarity.

Given the universal strength and depth of feeling around this, i would suggest we all stop buying WoTC and Hasbro products until we get what we want.

The question is do we want the new OGL stopped or do we want D&D to no longer be owned by a super evil corporation.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  07:59:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most players aren't aware of what happens to DnD outside of the game they're paticipating in, and I suspect most of those few who are aware don't give half a sh*t about the isse. As far as DMs go, even if some may care about this, if they enjoy the new ruleset, you can stay sure that in the end they'll be back buying WotC stuff. The outrage will probably die off soon enough, especially if WotC makes some concessions. After all, outrage often dies off for massive issues that lots of people are invested in, let alone for a TTRPG. It's really hard to form a movement and keep it going--for once, you need to be always doing something material, and for that you need to have multiple lines of actions and targets, and so on. It requires organizers who know what they're doing, but here were mostly have RPG makers, DMs, and players--some of them might also be organizers, but I wouldn't put my money on them deciding to undertake such a huge effort.

So, I don't expect people's anger to be enough to make WotC fall back to the OGL 1.0, or even make 1.1 fair to creatos and customers. Competition *might* affect them, but it probably won't. DnD is so big (in the context of TTRPGs) that WotC might as well be the whole industry now.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  08:36:58  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apathy only helps the guilty.

Cancel away and do something to try and influence the outcome.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  09:50:19  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apathy may be the most widespread reaction, though. Personally, I don't use mainstream social media in any meaningful way, but I and my group (of just 2 people, admittedly) have stopped buying their stuff and using DnD/d20 a long time ago, so I guess we're set as far as "boycotting" goes. I'm the only one in my group who keeps following FR authors on the DMGuild and here. But that's just because FR still holds a special place for me, if only for nostalgia (some characters or places give me the same feeling of wonder as when I discovered TTRPGs, or as when I first played some D&D VGs).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  11:50:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

The question is do we want the new OGL stopped or do we want D&D to no longer be owned by a super evil corporation.



Okay, I'm getting more than a little tired of this. We get that you hate WotC -- you never miss an opportunity to tell us.

But this is getting ridiculous. This move is misguided and motivated by greed, yes -- but it's a move to make money, which is what ANY company exists to do.

I'm happy to join in on condemning WotC's actions, and I've got more than a few negative things about them to say, myself. But calling a company "super evil" for looking for more ways to do something all companies exist to do is going too far.

Also, D&D has been too much of a money-maker for Hasbro. It's going to take years of poor sales to get Hasbro to dump WotC, and while we can do things like turn to other systems or call WotC at the numbers above and complain, it would take a years-long, sustained effort to kill D&D. And success would not necessarily mean someone else would pick it up, because it wouldn't look like a good investment, then.

We need to be realistic about all of this.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jan 2023 11:54:51
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  12:44:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To me it's just a turn of phrase and obvious truth. Companies always prioritise profits over people, exploiting them for money, that can never be defined as good.

Hasbro is by no means the most evil, in fact its moral breaches (removing access to previously purchased pdfs - twice, breaking the spirit of agreements, all in the name of money) have been relatively minor, but they will never be good.

Regardless of my opinions of them, a boycott is the only way to affect change. Boycott until you get what you want.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  17:10:54  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think gamers should be universally opposed to what WotC is doing in regards to the OGL, even if it doesn't affect them. If gamers lose the right to use the OGL, they will NEVER get it back, not in this day and age. I may not be running a company or selling a game product, but I'd prefer to have the option to do so as it currently exists under the original OGL.
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2023 :  19:02:22  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Make "D&D" more into a generic idea than a specific branded IP and product line.

If you want a taste of where this is heading, just look at the OSR space, which has so many unique game systems that it's frankly overwhelming and nigh impossible to find a group. Relevant XKCD:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards_2x.png
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2023 :  14:30:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just got an email from Frog God Games. In addition to announcing a 50% off sale on OGL stuff on their site and on DriveThruRPG (no coupon code required), they had this to say about the new OGL:

quote:
Dear Loyal Gamers,

Frog God Games and Necromancer Games will not sign the new Open Game License (OGL) Version 1.1. We believe that what Hasbro is doing is wrong, in bad faith, and likely not legal. We fully believe that the strength of the industry is based on multiple people with diverse approaches making rules,settings, and adventures for our favorite game.

Twenty-three years ago, Clark Peterson and I started a tiny company called Necromancer Games. At midnight on the day 3rd Edition released, we published The Wizard’s Amulet, the first third-party adventure to support it. Our company then worked with Wizards of the Coast (WOTC) to put together the 1.0a OGL. The promise that we could start, grow, and operate a business creating adventures for D&D was in the bedrock of what has become my life’s work. We have published for D&D 3.0, 3.5, and 5th Edition.

We have published for Pathfinder, Swords & Wizardry, Old-School Essentials, and Castles & Crusades. We have published more than 500 unique products over the years, and even built our own warehouse. All of this was done with the blessing of WOTC through the 1.0a OGL and a contractual promise that we could do this. Third-party publishers like us made the D&D brand larger and more universal. We helped make them money for the past 23 years.

We are not offended by their desire to make money off the third-party publishing market. We are offended that unless we give them the permanent right to use and sell our intellectual property with no compensation,we cannot continue to operate. We are offended that unless we give them the right to let them revoke our ability to publish at any time with only 30-days notice, we cannot make any more books. We are offended that even though we have spent thousands of dollars on making virtual tabletop versions of our games, we can’t do it anymore. WOTC sounds like Darth Vader talking to Lando Calrissian in The Empire Strikes Back: “I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further.”

WOTC, in bad faith, is breaking a promise, clear and simple. After we have invested 23 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars into our company, they want to pull the rug out from under us. They are intentionally damaging Necromancer Games and Frog God Games, as well as the entire industry.

If they proceed and succeed in deauthorizing the 1.0a OGL,we will have to stop production. We will lay off staff and quit hiring and paying 70 or so freelancers. We will have to cancel projects we have spent tens of thousands of dollars on already. This will put us and several dozen other companies out of business. Putting third-party publishers out of business will create a monoculture of work in D&D that prevents diversity of thought and makes it so only one company has input into the hobby. This has a real effect on people — real people — not just companies.

We do not care about One D&D. What we do care about is our ability to use the perpetual 1.0a OGL granted to us in 2000 by WOTC, as they promised we could.

So,what does all this mean for Necromancer Games and Frog God Games?

First, it means we need to stand up to them, fight, and continue working under our existing license. In this case, by “we” I mean everyone who is a creator in this industry. Second, we need to band together to create a non-OGL and non-WOTC version of a System Reference Document (SRD) that can forever be used by anyone. Why, you ask? WOTC has proven themselves to be untrustworthy and we all need to wean ourselves off them as soon as we can. We will work with our friends in the industry and have been in conversation with many of them already about doing this. Go Black Flag!

What you can do to help is to buy books from us and other third-party publishers right now so we can afford to continue to operate, pay our people, and keep our pool of artists and writers from starving. Look for opportunities to let WOTC know that what they are doing is wrong, be it with social media or with your wallet.

Have no fear, we are sticking around. We know it’s going to be a bumpy ride for a while, but if the fans support us, Necromancer Games and Frog God Games, as well as dozens of other companies like us, we will win this war and continue to make great products for the hobby.

Bill Webb
CEO Frog God Games

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Irennan
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Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2023 :  14:48:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good to hear that creators seem to be banding together and cutting ties with WotC.

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Brimstone
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USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2023 :  14:50:02  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC wants all of the $$$$$$$$$. Corporate greed is going bite WotC in the arse.


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