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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2022 : 12:04:20
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| Thanks for your opinion. I prefer running and playing myself as well. My opinion is that it's fun to watch people have fun and tell really good stories, and learn some tricks from both the DM and the players (Sam Reigel's gnome bard Scanlon's counterspelling Vecna is legendary in season 1, as well as Laura Bailey's modify memory on a hag in season 2). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2022 : 23:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Got another term for it, and please understand I'm just stating how I've felt in watching people do roleplaying shows at night.... boring to me. I find anything else more entertaining. I guess because I'm used to roleplaying myself.
It's fine to find a form of entertainment boring; lots of people do. It's no different from finding sitcoms boring, or football boring, or any other sort of entertainment boring. So long as no one is yucking on other people's yum (and I'm not accusing anyone of doing that here), it's all good. :)
I say this all as someone who makes his living creating this form of entertainment. ;)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2022 : 15:32:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Nah, they dropped the FR metaplot years ago. They'll just implement the changes to the races' lore and that will be it, lore-wise.
No mare calls, we have a winner!
Good to see you on here T, hope all is going as well with the family.
Sam |
Sam |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2022 : 13:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Got another term for it, and please understand I'm just stating how I've felt in watching people do roleplaying shows at night.... boring to me. I find anything else more entertaining. I guess because I'm used to roleplaying myself.
It's fine to find a form of entertainment boring; lots of people do. It's no different from finding sitcoms boring, or football boring, or any other sort of entertainment boring. So long as no one is yucking on other people's yum (and I'm not accusing anyone of doing that here), it's all good. :)
I say this all as someone who makes his living creating this form of entertainment. ;)
Jeff
Yeah, that's a good point, because I don't get watching football, baseball, etc... either. The only reason I can see for watching someone else play a video game is if you're stuck and need to know how to get past X, so people that watch someone play video games also amazes me. I guess I'm all about doing it yourself rather than watching (though at my age and with the infirmities I've developed, you definitely won't see me playing sports). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2023 : 02:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Oh it gets way worse than that.
https://gizmodo.com/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-ogl-1-1-open-gaming-license-1849950634
Oh man, that's harsh. Did they not learn from the debacle of the GSL (the 4E version of the OGL)?
I expect that unless they water this down considerably, there's going to be a lot of legal pushback against it -- especially with their unilateral revocation of the original OGL.
I've long thought that the original OGL was one of the best things WotC ever did; not only did it help expand the TTRPG market in general, it was also a sound marketing move, because increasing the general market with something that said "buy WotC books" was a brilliant move.
This new OGL, especially with that clause about "oh, if you use this, we have license to use your stuff" is going to discourage adoption, much like some of the terms in the GSL did. (I'm also seeing a lot of commentary online, saying the new OGL is more like the GSL than the original OGL) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jan 2023 02:52:24 |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2023 : 11:27:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Oh it gets way worse than that.
https://gizmodo.com/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-ogl-1-1-open-gaming-license-1849950634
Oh man, that's harsh. Did they not learn from the debacle of the GSL (the 4E version of the OGL)?
I expect that unless they water this down considerably, there's going to be a lot of legal pushback against it -- especially with their unilateral revocation of the original OGL.
It's basically a transparent attempt to clamp down on competition like Pathfinder, and to try and seize some of the reins from the likes of Critical Role.
And the leak of this has basically just ensured that Wizards of the Coast is gonna face some serious negative reactions from the public. |
Edited by - Scots Dragon on 06 Jan 2023 11:28:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2023 : 22:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
It's basically a transparent attempt to clamp down on competition like Pathfinder, and to try and seize some of the reins from the likes of Critical Role.
Agreed. The corporate avarice is on full display.
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
And the leak of this has basically just ensured that Wizards of the Coast is gonna face some serious negative reactions from the public.
It's both funny and sad: for every tiny little bit of good PR that WotC manages to earn, they follow up with a really big negative PR fiasco like this "new and infinitely worse GSL!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 03:59:41
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| I'm wondering how much this will hurt the movie premiere. Gamers may not go see the movie if they are pissed about how the OGL will affect their favorite games. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 05:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm wondering how much this will hurt the movie premiere. Gamers may not go see the movie if they are pissed about how the OGL will affect their favorite games.
Even if gamers stay away, en masse, it's not going to affect the premiere, too much. We're not the target audience, and we're a small portion of the overall movie-going public, anyway.
There are movies that utterly flop at the box office that still bring in numbers (and money!) that game designers and authors of all kinds could only wish for. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 07:47:30
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I suspect that they believe the movie will send the brand into the stratosphere such that they can shed 3rd party publishers and rein in others making money off the OGL without any detriment to WotC. I'm married to the DMs Guild because my only interest is the Realms, so the changes don't affect me one iota, but I can understand the concerns of many other parties.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 17:11:41
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I've been checking the popular D&D forums lately to see how the larger D&D community is taking this whole OGL 1.1 thing, and it's not pretty. People are spitting mad and talking about boycotts, switching to other games, and airing their grievances about the quality of recent D&D products. Seems like a lot of people have been unhappy with WotC for a long time and just needed something like this to push them over the edge.
Whether this will have any effect in the long-run, I don't know, but I've never seen the fan-base this riled up. WotC really stepped in it this time. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 17:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
... it's not pretty. People are spitting mad and talking about boycotts, switching to other games ...
Many of these people "switch" to earlier editions of (A)D&D.
It seems to me that when people passionately reject and condemn your latest version upgrade in favour of an older one then you must realize you're doing something wrong. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 23:59:11
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This OGL v1.1 thing is a debacle. And Wizards is in for a big wake up call when they actually lose in court.
In 3E the idea of the OGL was to encourage people to make and sell content (which pushed sales of core books) and not worry about litigation. But the truth is creators only needed to worry about litigation if they were using someone else's IP or portions of the rules word for word. Otherwise the law is pretty clear you can't patent game rules. But the OGL just sort of gave everyone peace of mind that a mom and pop start up wasn't going to have to try to fight Wizards in court. Thing is when you look at some of these rules users, Pathfinder, Critical Roll, they have the money to throw at litigation and they will likely win (I don't know if Critical Roll uses IP I don't watch it but I'm pretty sure Mercer makes his own worlds). So just leave the OGL off your next project completely, it was never needed it to begin with.
I will say I like the concept of the DMs Guild because it cuts out the hassle of getting licenses for IP. You want to make a few bucks and not worry about being sued post it there and give Wizards their cut. I do wish they allowed for content for previous editions or even cross edition content. It would also be great if they didn't require crunch, I vaguely emember Ed trying to put up few short stories and they are no longer available. *sigh* |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 08 Jan 2023 00:00:46 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 03:13:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
This OGL v1.1 thing is a debacle. And Wizards is in for a big wake up call when they actually lose in court.
In 3E the idea of the OGL was to encourage people to make and sell content (which pushed sales of core books) and not worry about litigation. But the truth is creators only needed to worry about litigation if they were using someone else's IP or portions of the rules word for word. Otherwise the law is pretty clear you can't patent game rules. But the OGL just sort of gave everyone peace of mind that a mom and pop start up wasn't going to have to try to fight Wizards in court. Thing is when you look at some of these rules users, Pathfinder, Critical Roll, they have the money to throw at litigation and they will likely win (I don't know if Critical Roll uses IP I don't watch it but I'm pretty sure Mercer makes his own worlds). So just leave the OGL off your next project completely, it was never needed it to begin with.
I will say I like the concept of the DMs Guild because it cuts out the hassle of getting licenses for IP. You want to make a few bucks and not worry about being sued post it there and give Wizards their cut. I do wish they allowed for content for previous editions or even cross edition content. It would also be great if they didn't require crunch, I vaguely emember Ed trying to put up few short stories and they are no longer available. *sigh*
Darrington Press' (Critical Role's publishing company) books are all 5E based, using the OGL 1.0a |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 10:42:25
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| I wonder how this will affect companies like Paizo [who I believe publishes Pathfinder 2e under the OGL1.0a] and Pelgrane Press [who also publishes 13th Age and the upcoming 13th Age 2e under the OGL1.0a]? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 14:13:03
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Read the article from Scots Dragon above. Anyone making more than $750,000 using the OGL will owe 20-25% of the amount over the $750,000 to WotC. So, let's roughly say Paizo made $10 million last year (I believe it's more than that). Then they would owe 20% of $9,250,000 or $185,000 back to WotC.
Oh, any ANY product using the OGL has to be registered with WotC, no matter if you profit from it or not. Which, in my brain says that they will see what everyone is planning to make, have a chance to squash that product, then steal it for themselves.
Also, the language of the new OGL is such that you don't just paste the 900 world 1.0a at the back of your book, but paste the new 9,000 word at the back of your book and detail every item you used from the new OGL.
As for content creators that don't have crunch in their product (George K, Critical Role, etc.), they would be using the Fan Content Policy to product their material. HOWEVER, the Fan Content Policy specifically states that it must be FREE.
quote:
- You can’t require payments, surveys, downloads, subscriptions, or email registration to access your Fan Content;
- You can’t sell or license your Fan Content to any third parties for any type of compensation; and
- Your Fan Content must be free for others (including Wizards) to view, access, share, and use without paying you anything, obtaining your approval, or giving you credit.
So, DM's Guild, Critical Role's Kickstarter/Amazon Prime deal for the Vox Machina cartoon? I believe that's going to change if they are able to get away with the new OGL. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 00:56:47
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Seeker Scots Dragon,
I couldn't agree more. This situation smells worse than the 4e debacle. What a nightmare for many.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:06:37
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Master Rupert!
A fine day to you good sir!
quote:
Oh man, that's harsh. Did they not learn from the debacle of the GSL (the 4E version of the OGL)?
I was thinking the same thing myself. The fight over the OGL 1.1 is definitely going to be interesting to watch. With as much on the line as WotC/Hasbro has for clearly wanting a massive revenue uptick, I can't imagine it would be an easy fight like the Dragonlance one. Fortunately for WotC, they don't care about PR issues, as we saw from their responses/lack of responses during the 4e time. In fact, they just blatantly lied during that time, creating false narratives about how well 4e was doing, etc.
quote:
I've long thought that the original OGL was one of the best things WotC ever did;
Agreed. The unique labor inputs into the cost structure for WotC made expanding the work model out to the large masses brilliant. It also made people feel more connected to what was going on, being such a clear part of the creation of material.
The biggest problem I see with this entire issue is the gumption of fandom. Fandom loves to scream, yell, and say they'll do x, y, or z, but they carry a very small stick. Unless a company is willing to fold like a cheap suit, they'll beat out fandom every time. I mean, heck, look at 4e. Plenty of screaming, yelling, and limited boycotting [I haven't purchased a single thing from them since 2007, and likely never will again]. If the louder, wealthier crowds at the time of the 4e debacle didn't influence them until years later, I see little chance it will now.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:10:32
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Seeker Scots Dragon,
quote:
It's basically a transparent attempt to clamp down on competition like Pathfinder, and to try and seize some of the reins from the likes of Critical Role.
I couldn't agree more.
quote:
And the leak of this has basically just ensured that Wizards of the Coast is gonna face some serious negative reactions from the public.
It is already getting huge negative reactions, but WotC has been down this road so many times. They know that fandom has no spine in general, and won't actually do what it takes to make them change course: vote with their dollars, over a protracted period of time. Heck, even with 4e, we saw several years of WotC trying to stick it out with absolutely atrocious figures for sales during that time. Hubris is expensive, and entrenching. WotC will just wait it out. They have more on the line this time than a mere setting for D&D, they have D&D on the line.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:15:48
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Great Reader Ravenheart,
quote:
I'm wondering how much this will hurt the movie premiere. Gamers may not go see the movie if they are pissed about how the OGL will affect their favorite games.
I agree with Master Rupert here for his reasons given, and mine given above in response to Seeker Scots Dragon and Master Rupert.
Fandom can't help themselves. It's like putting a Snickers bar in front of a fat kid: they're going to eat it, they can't help themselves. Fandom needs their social connection, and in this case, the game that facilitates it. They'll be drinking from the Kool-Aid the whole time. Sure, there will be a certain cross section of people who leave, as in 4e, but it certainly won't be enough to compel WotC to change course. Look at all of the hate that was generated by the 4e debacle and it took them years to finally capitulate. Couple that with the financial position that Hasbro is in, and they need to go full steam ahead to get some money filling the coffers.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:19:08
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Master Rupert,
quote:
Even if gamers stay away, en masse, it's not going to affect the premiere, too much. We're not the target audience, and we're a small portion of the overall movie-going public, anyway.
Agreed. We've seen this with other movies with appeal enough. The hardcore are almost always a very small cross section of the actual target market. It kind of makes sense that fandom itself doesn't see that, because all they see are their fellow hardcore lovers of the game, etc. Looking from the outside in though, yeah, fandom is small comparatively.
quote:
There are movies that utterly flop at the box office that still bring in numbers (and money!) that game designers and authors of all kinds could only wish for.
All of those bored, hungry minds, waiting to be entertained with money in hand. It's always going to dwarf the influence of fandom.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:26:03
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Learned Scribe HighOne,
quote:
Whether this will have any effect in the long-run, I don't know, but I've never seen the fan-base this riled up. WotC really stepped in it this time.
Check out the forums here when the Spellplague happened. There was a wee bit of riled up going on then, and it still continues to this day at times, here and there, haha.
The reality is WotC isn't going to turn away from this. One thing from the draft that I take away as a declaration that they are looking to make an example out of someone with litigation is the following:
quote:
You waive any right to sue over Our decision on these issues. We’re aware that, if We somehow stretch Our decision of what is or is not objectionable under these clauses too far, We will receive community pushback and bad PR, and We’re more than open to being convinced that We made a wrong decision. But nobody gets to use the threat of a lawsuit as part of an attempt to convince Us.
**B/U/I added for emphasis**
They're battening down the hatches and preparing for war for the revenue they believe they see on the horizon, and making it clear, they'll savage anyone who opposes them with litigation to their best ability.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:31:50
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Great Reader Dallison,
quote:
They didnt realise with 4e, they wont realise now.
Man, you hit it on the head! That's what is a bit maddening for me over the rage going on right now with "new" players, who began with 5e. Most of them have no idea of the horridly wretched history of WotC, and this is hitting them as if a paladin of Torm just went dark side to Bane or something, lol. A little less naivety would definitely help the younger/newer generation that showed up with 5e to understand WotC a bit better.
quote:
Big business is not about pleasing customers. It is about making as much profit as possible through whatever means possible. That includes predatory business tactics, price gouging, and marketing campaigns to advertise low quality garbage as premium products.
Well, it is those things unless there are laws against them, i.e. dumping, and others (assuming they get caught/noticed in the first place).
As to the point of businesses' goals, certainly you are correct. What is mind boggling to me is that I've seen posts by a great many people in the reddit community making declarations that "D&D belongs to the community", or similar sentiments. It is unconscionably bizarre to see such a disconnect from the average person to come to the conclusion that a company/person's privately held assets are somehow the purview of the general public when it seemingly becomes "loved" enough? Very, very odd and disconcerting.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 01:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
Oh it gets way worse than that.
https://gizmodo.com/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-ogl-1-1-open-gaming-license-1849950634
This is not at all an open, unrestrictive, unlimited license. It's exactly the opposite - a closed, restrictive, limited license.
But I suppose "Locked Gaming License", "Restricted Gaming License", and "Limited Gaming License" would sound bad. Marketing chose "Open Gaming License" because it sounds much more altruistic.
Deliberately designed to be anti-competitive. Fair enough. Why should anyone else make money from Wizbro's hard work? Operating a large staff of unhappy game designers must be quite expensive.
I do think it crosses lines, though. Not just anti-competitive. Because of the misleading BS way it's marketed right in the title, it's also anti-consumer.
Combine with the increasing number of products segmented into microtransactions and it's rather obvious where things have gone, where things are going. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Jan 2023 02:00:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 02:10:06
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So, basically:
"All you have created using the permission that we gave you for the past 20 years now belongs to us, because we say so. Also, made a good product? Are you a fan that created something cool? Too bad, now it's ours, and if you were selling it, we'll steal it from you and sell it ourselves. Sucks to be you LMAO"
Apparently, the "all your stuff belongs to us" clause of the DMGuild wasn't enough for them. They may have realized that less and less people are buying their 0-effort, massively overpriced books, and have instead turned to 3rd parties (from my understanding, this is actually how things look like in 5e: lots of people buy 3pp products rather than WotC's stuff). I guess this is the path of least resistance for WotC: rather than making better narratives and products, or bringing forth more content for a customer base that seems to actually want more (contrary to their original predictions), they'll just try to prevent others from making anything. We'll see how it turns out, though--as a benchamrk for their business choices--I've heard they drove Magic into the ground in 2022, so much that Bank of America went to them to say that they were losing.
This sh*tshow makes me even happier that my group got bored of D&D tropes a *long* time ago, and decided to ditch the system altogether. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Jan 2023 02:17:07 |
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"One D&D" is coming
