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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2022 : 21:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Ulgarth and the Utter East.
I love this information on the underutilized Utter East. I am particularly curious about this quote...
quote:
Some believe that the area of the Utter East and the Yehimal was originally the home of the dwarven race on Toril. They either were first created here by their gods, or arrived on Toril from some other world, possibly long prior to 35,000 BDR (Before Dalereckoning). According to legend, the dwarves established vast, gigantic cities under the Yehimal before moving (or being displaced) westwards into Faerûn proper. The truth of the matter remains unknown, as human settlement of the region is so sparse that not much exploration has taken place.
I’m curious if this is just a “unreliable narrator” from one source or something that has been verified in multiple sources. The origin of dwarves on Toril is really a BIG deal and I find it odd to just be a throwaway concept that came from just a singular source. |
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paintphob
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2022 : 00:52:21
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| Now that you are getting towards the end of the nations of the Realms, any chance that you might visit some of the regions, like the Daleslands, Dragon Coast, or the North? |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2022 : 03:10:09
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I like the Yehimal idea because it paints this narrative of generations of some dwarves being pushed out of the bounds of their territory, leading to all the different monster manual entries for strange wild dwarves in forests on the surface of the world- especially east of the sea of fallen stars. Dwarves who weren't adapted for the mountain and/or cultures that were ostracized from the cavern dwelling society would be shaken off the mountain and into the far corners of the world. Then you get the Gold Dwarves be the first ones to pull off leaving the mountain without dissolving into surface tribes and while resisting the underdark's threats.
We can follow a kind of 'sanctioned migration' of the gold dwarves west, and of the shield dwarves north thereafter. Then portals and gates enable distant migrations to make Sarphal, and eventually claiming territory in Sossal and naming a mountain after Sundabar. But every time these 'civilized' dwarves expanded out into the world, maybe, they found 'dwarves' in many places all over the surface. The kinds you see peeking out of bushes in rare realms monster manuals. Many kinds of wild dwarves wouldn't survive the historical record over 25,000 years. I love the idea of Shield Dwarves colonizing the great northern realms- and having to fight with dwarves who have lived in the cold for generations already. Change up the way you tell stories of 'snow dwarves'.
"You kicked us out of the mountain ten thousand years ago, and so we have lived on the surface of the world. You insist on living within stone realms until you too become the one pushed out into the sunlight. And now you chase us by our heels? Shield dwarf settlers, what if the Gold dwarf realm falls? Would you chase us to the shores of the great ice sea and drown us in its waters only for some other dwarven migration to push you into the icy waters soon after?"
I maaaay be listening to too many history podcasts about domino migration. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2022 : 23:59:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Ulgarth and the Utter East.
I love this information on the underutilized Utter East. I am particularly curious about this quote...
quote:
Some believe that the area of the Utter East and the Yehimal was originally the home of the dwarven race on Toril. They either were first created here by their gods, or arrived on Toril from some other world, possibly long prior to 35,000 BDR (Before Dalereckoning). According to legend, the dwarves established vast, gigantic cities under the Yehimal before moving (or being displaced) westwards into Faerûn proper. The truth of the matter remains unknown, as human settlement of the region is so sparse that not much exploration has taken place.
I’m curious if this is just a “unreliable narrator” from one source or something that has been verified in multiple sources. The origin of dwarves on Toril is really a BIG deal and I find it odd to just be a throwaway concept that came from just a singular source.
The Yehimal origin point for the dwarves of Faerûn is canon - Demihuman Deities, p.74.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 02:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Yehimal origin point for the dwarves of Faerûn is canon - Demihuman Deities, p.74.
-- George Krashos
Are you sure of that page number? I've gone over it a couple of times, and I'm not seeing any references to Yehimal on there. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Thuumhammer
Acolyte
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 15:56:24
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| I love your maps Werthead! So detailed yet easy to read. Just a quick question: Why is the Well of Dragons excluded from your map of Faerun? I see you've got Ladydove, but the Well of Dragons which should be slightly to the northwest is missing. |
Currently living in a version of 1372DR that operates under 5e mechanics. Strange indeed! |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 17:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Are you sure of that page number? I've gone over it a couple of times, and I'm not seeing any references to Yehimal on there.
Page 47, Wooly.
Not the example I would point to as canon, though:
"It is unknown when or where dwarves appeared in the Realms, but most dwarven legends trace the earliest settlements of the Stout Folk back tens of thousands of years to the great mountain range known as the Yehimal. It is believed that in a great exodus from the Yehimal, the Stout Folk split into two (or possibly three) major branches as they spread across Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. Those who came to Faerun are believed to have first settled beneath modern-day Semphar before spreading westward, eventually fragmenting into four dwarven subraces." (emphasis mine)
Fortunately, The Grand History of The Realms has it in the definitive (p.12):
"c. –16000 DR
The first dwarf settlements appear in the great mountain range known as the Yehimal, which lies at the juncture of the three great continents of Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. From there, the earliest dwarves migrated into all three lands."
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AJA
YAFRP
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 21:45:15
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Waterdeep
quote:
I love your maps Werthead! So detailed yet easy to read. Just a quick question: Why is the Well of Dragons excluded from your map of Faerun? I see you've got Ladydove, but the Well of Dragons which should be slightly to the northwest is missing.
I think I was looking at the source saying it didn't exist, or wasn't discovered, until 1372, which is one year after the map series is "set."
Although I see I also disagreed with myself and put it on the Cormyr map. Ha.
I probably need to redo the Faerun map because I uncovered a lot of new locations which could also fit onto the larger-scaled map without too much trouble.
quote:
Now that you are getting towards the end of the nations of the Realms, any chance that you might visit some of the regions, like the Daleslands, Dragon Coast, or the North?
Potentially, but this is has been very tiring. Also, I just started a new job which has completely eliminated my map-making side-time, so it won't be for a while, and the output will be much lower.
I have a different project in mind, possibly a narrative history of the entire Realms complete with historical maps. That's partially complete but needs a lot of revising.
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Edited by - Werthead on 11 Nov 2022 21:51:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 23:17:14
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| I love your maps (and the write-ups!), but I gotta say, I'm just a bit disappointed to not see your treatment of Waterdeep itself. (I realize there's about 10,000 named locations, there, but I was just hoping for the basic layout, streets, most notable features, etc) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Nov 2022 23:20:32 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2022 : 23:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I love your maps (and the write-ups!), but I gotta say, I'm just a bit disappointed to not see your treatment of Waterdeep itself. (I realize there's about 10,000 named locations, there, but I was just hoping for the basic layout, streets, most notable features, etc)
My base map showing Waterdeep in sufficient detail for my (admittedly insane) standards is 10,000 x 10,000 pixels, which is the same size as my map of all of Faerun.
I want to give it a go but it will not be an overnight job! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2022 : 00:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I love your maps (and the write-ups!), but I gotta say, I'm just a bit disappointed to not see your treatment of Waterdeep itself. (I realize there's about 10,000 named locations, there, but I was just hoping for the basic layout, streets, most notable features, etc)
My base map showing Waterdeep in sufficient detail for my (admittedly insane) standards is 10,000 x 10,000 pixels, which is the same size as my map of all of Faerun.
I want to give it a go but it will not be an overnight job!
I will be a happy camper indeed if you do it!  |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2022 : 03:15:37
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Mount Angaroth/Heavenfire and the rest of the Star Mounts and their waters are so mysterious.. Some elder Greenwood secret lies inbetween meteors and unicorns and that book-cover symbol.
Also- this is now the most sensible and comprehensive map of the Ardeep's surrounding settlements. EVERY map drew this whole area wildly differently in everything I found. Now I can just say "Yes the ruling floshin lives on the road and the estates are a bit off the road and the forest proper is ways away". |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2022 : 04:12:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Yehimal origin point for the dwarves of Faerûn is canon - Demihuman Deities, p.74.
-- George Krashos
Are you sure of that page number? I've gone over it a couple of times, and I'm not seeing any references to Yehimal on there.
Sorry, p.42 - 74 is the footnote number. My bad.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2022 : 16:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will be a happy camper indeed if you do it!
I managed to get it down to 6000 x 9000 so will probably take a punt at it. It's definitely going to be a monster.
I did update the article with a ward outline of the city. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2022 : 16:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will be a happy camper indeed if you do it!
I managed to get it down to 6000 x 9000 so will probably take a punt at it. It's definitely going to be a monster.
I did update the article with a ward outline of the city.
Downloaded! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2022 : 14:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Sorry, p.42 - 74 is the footnote number. My bad.
-- George Krashos
Shouldn't it be page 47? |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2022 : 15:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Shouldn't it be page 47?
p.42 for those who have a physical copy. p.47 for those who have a .pdf of questionable provenance.
Also, Werthead, count me in on looking forward to seeing your take on Waterdeep (city)!
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AJA
YAFRP
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2022 : 12:54:04
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| Updated the Waterdeep & Surrounds map with the locations from Neverwinter Nights 2, around the Mere of Dead Men. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2022 : 22:49:23
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Waterdeep map progress so far.
Need to change the "shallow cliff" colour, it looks too much like vegetation from a distance. Otherwise starting to look promising. It's taken a long time to get this far though, so when I start doing streets and individual buildings...yikes. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2022 : 21:52:35
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Finished Deepwater and Stormhaven Islands. The main city is underway. Done all the cliffs, trees, ponds, beaches (and mud flats) wells, wall towers and the forts. Just started on the walls.
I'm using the City of Splendors (2E) map as a base, maybe a bit too closely. Need to mix up the colours more and might change the wall design a bit to not get into trouble! |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2022 : 13:16:15
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This is cool.
Ed talking about Realms cartography, including I believe the first-ever look at his original Moonshae Isles |
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2022 : 20:52:21
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Really good video. I also like how he talks about how despite WOTC/Hasbro mentioning anything before 2014 isn't canon - it actually is, legally, and they have to make stuff that supercedes it. Also anything he writes is canon.
Ed is a treasure.
(also Werthead I have loved your maps and area lore compilations, I'd been working on something like that myself sans maps.) |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2022 : 19:14:20
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| Out of curiosity, a small question. Why did you place the Desolation Desert to the west of the Raurin Desert when the map accompanying the revised module (I3-5) places it to the east? |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2023 : 16:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Asharak
Out of curiosity, a small question. Why did you place the Desolation Desert to the west of the Raurin Desert when the map accompanying the revised module (I3-5) places it to the east?
Because that's where the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas places it. There are also some indications in Desert of Desolation that it is on the west side, such as caravans from Phannaskul in Murghom and Gheldaneth in Mulhorand coming that way, and they are both on the western side of the desert. The maps in the module don't seem to be conclusive beyond a general NE-trend in the Dustwall Mountains in the area.
There's also the fact that Bralizzar seems to be well-connected to the civilised lands of Durpar to the south. In Durpar all the major cities and civilisation are on the western side of the nation, the north-eastern area along the Dustwall beyond the Scarlet Jungle seems very desolate in comparison, and the only pass in the eastern Dustwall is supposed to be closed off by the impenetrable Gate of Iron. |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2023 : 10:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Because that's where the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas places it. There are also some indications in Desert of Desolation that it is on the west side, such as caravans from Phannaskul in Murghom and Gheldaneth in Mulhorand coming that way, and they are both on the western side of the desert. The maps in the module don't seem to be conclusive beyond a general NE-trend in the Dustwall Mountains in the area.
There's also the fact that Bralizzar seems to be well-connected to the civilised lands of Durpar to the south. In Durpar all the major cities and civilisation are on the western side of the nation, the north-eastern area along the Dustwall beyond the Scarlet Jungle seems very desolate in comparison, and the only pass in the eastern Dustwall is supposed to be closed off by the impenetrable Gate of Iron.
Thank you for these very instructive clarifications.
And congratulations again for this enormous work. |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2023 : 22:17:16
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And we're back with the first Historical Maps of the Forgotten Realms! Starting with the Days of Thunder.
This was a tricky one to get the sequence to events right: the Narrow Sea being rotated 90 degrees by the sarrukh (for phaerimm-defeating purposes), then the four separate Inner Seas becoming the one big one in the Tearfall. I also remembered to include the Cold Sea (the pre-frozen Great Glacier), which a lot of prehistoric maps of the Realms tend to forget.
The main map draws heavily on Brian James' original map for Grand History of the Realms, but I tried to go into more detail. It was also fun slamming the continents together to try to work out how Brian did it fifteen years ago to get the same results (I think I got it right, more or less). It was also fun to do the eastern side of the planet and figure out how Osse attached to Kara-Tur (badly, in my case, but I did have fun combining Kozakura, Wa and Koryo into a new landmass). One oddity from the Grand History Map is a massive extension of Zakhara to the east, whilst in the present day there's nothing there, it's just the Segara/Foreigners' Sea. I assume it was low-lying land that just vanished under the sea altogether, but still a bit odd.
Also, obviously, the locations of the coastlines, rivers etc should be massively more different from the modern makeup of the Realms, but I kept a lot of things the same so people can see where the locations correspond to the modern day.
This is an off-shoot of a project I've been tinkering with for years, the appalling-badly named Abeir-Torillion (with apologies to Tolkien), a narrative history of the Realms from their creation to the present day (and, with teeth gritted, I realise that had to mean 1497 DR, so Spellplague warts and all). Having maps to go along with it felt like a fun move.
Regarding the Waterdeep map, I did spend about a month working on it, which is about eight times longer than any of the previous Nations maps, and was still only maybe 20% of the way done with it, so decided to put it on the backburner for now. |
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
270 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2023 : 13:27:02
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| Awesome, I love it, congratulations. |
"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2023 : 11:12:19
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Map 2: The Dawn Age
Some awkwardness here because of the (IMO, awkward) dating of the Sundering to 17,600 BDR rather than, as feels a better fit, significantly earlier. Still, it more or less holds together. |
Edited by - Werthead on 19 Mar 2023 11:12:41 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Nations & History of the Forgotten Realms (Maps)
