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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2023 : 18:39:31
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quote:
But since the sundering effects stretched back in time (probably to at least -36000 dr) the single continent will never have been known by any sentient race on toril.
Based on the map in Grand History of the Realms and the timeline notations, it looks like the (First) Sundering became temporally linked with the Tearfall in 31,000 BDR, but before the Tearfall everyone was clear there was only one single supercontinent and that's where everything was happening, hence the Creator Race nations being noted on the map of Merrouroboros.
Between the Tearfall and the proper date of the Sundering it appears to be a sort of quantum flux, hence references to things going on on at the Chultan Peninsula when the Chultan Peninsula does not even exist at the time. Or at least, that's my take on it. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2023 : 23:48:36
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| Hi, Werthead. I was wondering if I could use your maps as a reference to create my own map. Specifically, I want to make an updated map of Unther to fit my campaign (adding Tymather stuff and that). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Sep 2023 23:49:02 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2023 : 14:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Hi, Werthead. I was wondering if I could use your maps as a reference to create my own map. Specifically, I want to make an updated map of Unther to fit my campaign (adding Tymather stuff and that).
No problem with anyone using any of the maps for their own home use. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2023 : 05:24:35
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| Well. is not exactly home use. I'm writing a player's guide (sort of) to Tymanther, and the map will be in the guide. I don't intend to charge anything for it, but it will be shared on the Net (here and in other forums). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 01:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
As long as you give credit, sure.
In the meantime, on a request I made a map showing the locations of the fallen enclaves of Netheril, where known.
That is awesome... But I have two questions and a comment.
Question 1: If Doubloon disappeared, what is the logic behind its placement on the map? Have I forgotten lore indicating where it was found?
Question 2: Were you aware that Ed provided the location of three crashed enclaves, that are nowhere near the Heartlands? This was on Twitter a while back
Comment: There is rumored to be a Netherese enclave in Tethyr's Firedrake Bay.
(Ed has also indicated there is at least one enclave that is still inhabited, but it was parked and didn't fall -- so no one living there now knows it was an enclave, and he did not identify it) |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 18:59:17
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That was where Doubloon was last sighted.
Excellent point on that, I just found their locations. All off this map, but I updated the text with their information. I also updated my Kara-Tur map with their location (plus fixed some long-standing issues I had with it re: the Utter East).
Could the surviving enclave be Selunarra? Or possibly a reference to Sargauth/Skullport (which was a "ground enclave")?
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Edited by - Werthead on 04 Oct 2023 21:31:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 15:41:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
That was where Doubloon was last sighted.
Excellent point on that, I just found their locations. All off this map, but I updated the text with their information. I also updated my Kara-Tur map with their location (plus fixed some long-standing issues I had with it re: the Utter East).
Could the surviving enclave be Selunarra? Or possibly a reference to Sargauth/Skullport (which was a "ground enclave")?
I would rather see the exact wording from Ed, but based on Wooly's statements that "it was parked and didn't fall" .... I would take it another way... it wasn't a "ground enclave" but it may have been an enclave that for some reason "had landed temporarily on the ground". While I could see many enclaves that might have always stayed aloft, if there were some that weren't "chopped off mountaintops"... but cities on disks like what was described in the recent adventure in the north... I could see them landing in some situations to take on materials being delivered via caravans. I could also see them landing
in a relatively shallow lake to take on fresh water that includes fish. Some Netherese might view this as a weaker enclave as a result mind you.
For those interested, here's my take on Doubloon
On doubloon, I have my own personal story that leads it through history first to Halruaa with the Netherese survivors (because while it was last seen in the North, it may have been establishing territory in Halruaa prior to the fall and may be partially WHY the Netherese diaspora were able to quickly relocate there). I then have it leaving as a part of the Leirans leaving to Nimbral (cloaked mind you). Then once on Nimbral, I have it getting an experimental Netherese "helm" placed on it (since they had been building their own fleet) that enabled it to go into orbit, but would not allow it to achieve spelljamming speeds. This helm would be similar to the dwarven forge helm that achieves its mobility through acts of dwarven creation, but instead working through spellcasters creating minor magic items (scrolls, potions, etc...)
From that point, I have these doubloon riding Leirans getting involved with the inhabitants of Selune and bringing their religion with them. Another take could be that they are the ones who inhabited the moon, and that the elves on the moon and that the fey of Nimbral have a kinship. I personally prefer a more complex relationship that involves a mix of this and ALSO an influx of "Ellefolk" refugees being rescued by Leiran AND Selune worshippers from the plane of shadows. These Ellefolk are paranoid in the extreme that they will be discovered and effectively returned to slavery, and so they actually hide their true nature and pretend to be "Elf Folk". To note, I would have it that these "ellefolk" are not the ones that become the Arak in Ravenloft... but rather a prior group that escaped that inspired that group's rebellion, and which knows zero about the Arak's later escape.
Time passes. Inhabitants of the Doubloon enclave in orbit becomes more insular from the surface. They hide their enclave under a cloak near continually, but eventually they start getting infiltrated. Ironically, the enclave of Leirans starts getting their leadership replaced by greater doppelgangers who create further paranoia in order to establish control. Later, the doppelgangers are infiltrated by illithids who take greater doppelgangers and perform ceremorphosis upon them, resulting in a slow moving shadow war between the greater doppelgangers and the illithids of Glyth.
Ironically, the rescue of this enclave came not from within, but rather from an exterior influence. Mythrell'aa Vianul, Zulkir of Illusion, had spent decades unraveling the mystery of Doubloon until she finally found the city. To her suprise, she also found the city under the secret grip of doppelgangers at war with half-illithid doppelgangers. She used her power and that of her thayan servants to infiltrate both groups and finally revealed them to the human populace of the orbiting enclave, and quickly killed or displaced the monstrous invaders... resulting in a significant population loss to the enclave. As a result, she was welcomed as the new ruler of the enclave, partly out of fear, but also respect and appreciation.
Learning from her own past and knowing that renaming is perhaps one of the greatest forms of obfuscation, she renamed the enclave Luneira, and even passed a law against referring to the colony as Doubloon. Acquiring this colony also included an influx of Netherese knowledge regarding the creation of their own helms. This aided the Thayan Guild of Foreign Trade to develop (behind the backs of many of the other zulkirs not allied to Mythrell'aa) a new form of spelljamming helm. The Quad of Thay, with its "Grand Helm", was expensive, useless for travel between crystal spheres, and required multiple spellcasters to fly.... but it didn't require the aid of the Mercane. Nor did it require the Mercane to even know of its existence, and Mythrell'aa and the Guild of Foreign Trade were intent to make this secret stay a secret. They made sure their ship was fast enough to simply retreat if trouble appeared, and so essentially their Quads became a ship meant for smuggling goods and personnel. When it came to personnel, it was not unusual for them to drug or magically put people to sleep to ensure that they never even knew how they had been transported... in all things, Mythrell'aa believed in secrecy.
So, when the Szass Tam started the war that turned into the Thayan Rebellion, Mythrell'aa received a warning from the Zulkir of Divination that would change her intent to remain in place. Mythrell'aa took her knowledge that renaming things is often the best form of obfuscation, and so she enacted a powerful ritual that made the inhabitants of Faerun think her name was something different. They began to think her name was Mythrellan, and that it had always been Mythrellan. She also faked her own death and removed herself and many of her most faithful followers to Luneira.
In the intervening time between freeing Luneira and the spellplague, she had also been busy regarding spelljamming. She had uncovered Kara-Tur's own spelljamming involvement with the Mercane, and she had uncovered the activities of the country of Wa to develop its own spelljamming engines in the form of Ki Helms and their rudders of propulsion. Once again, using the theory that obfuscation is the best form of infiltration, she staged assaults of spelljammers of both countries and framed their rivals. As a result, she also secretly captured a small fleet of nearly a half dozen Kara-Turan dragonships and even a Wa Tsunami with a complete complement of locusts.
The Zulkir of Illusion however did not stop there. Using her magic and her wiles, she and her loyal red wizards actually managed to ride inside the mind of several Wa courtiers to their emperor and gained intimate knowledge of what his throne room looked like, the mannerisms of the emperor of Wa, and WHO many of his most important contacts were. They constructed a facility resembling his palace and further dressed it out to resemble its most expensive or hard to duplicate features by covering them with illusion. They captured several instrumental wu jen, artificers, and craftsmen involved with Wa's spelljamming endeavours for short terms, replacing them with individuals who would feign sickness or claim a need for rest temporarily (some of these being doppelgangers who had been forced into servitude). They used this subterfuge to uncover secrets involving the facilities, techniques, and even some unique materials used in the construction of their spelljammers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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DewnMoutain
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2023 : 02:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
dude!! i love your maps! i used your WOT map as the map for my WOT campaign. Loved that thing! the detail you applied to it! |
Yes, i am a Blacksmith |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2023 : 01:18:18
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A new and updated map of Toril, the whole planet.
I was dissatisifed with my 2019 effort so ent back and reworked it into this. I tapped the "other" maps in the Interactive Atlas to add more islands, and make some of the coasts a bit less artificial. I also chucked out the non-canon names previously included (Aurune and Braaklosia) but retained the one that was a bit more canon-adjacent (Myrmidune) and added the name Ed dropped a while back (Arandron). I also added latitude lines from Markus Tay's research way back in the day, and a qualifier to Osse that the continent's size may be exaggerated (as Ed also noted a while back).
I also stuck it on a globe so people can take it for a (literal) spin.
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Edited by - Werthead on 30 Dec 2023 16:37:33 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2023 : 21:30:20
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Simply awesome maps...I've loved all of these!
Any chance for maps of the Dales and the Moonsea? =) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2024 : 21:33:12
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I completed a fairly significant revision of the entire Nations article series. I added a second map to every article showing the location of the nation in Faerûn (which helped with the "big picture" some felt was missing from the articles). I also added links to every article so the first time another nation is mentioned, people can click to go to that article. Should help with navigation.
A "Regions of the Realms" article series could follow, although I'd be wary of too much overlap with the nations series, so might be interesting to take a different tack with that. I should continue the "History" series first though, and doing these updated maps gave me some ideas on how to handle that in a more efficient manner.
I did have suggestions that some areas of Faerûn may still qualify as nations even if they aren't in the normal definition of things, so the Dalelands, the Border Kingdoms and the Great Dale might count for further exploration, or even covering nations on the other continents. |
Edited by - Werthead on 30 Mar 2024 22:48:40 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2024 : 20:51:37
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As part of rebooting the History series (which I left on hold for a year whilst doing other things), I had to significantly redraw my 10,000-pixel megamap of Faerûn to accommodate for this being Ye Olde Anciente Times.
I think I caught all the major changes that happened after this point so the continent looks roughly right for the start of the Crown Wars in 12,000 BDR:
- The Narrow Sea exists and, obviously, Anauroch does not.
- The Great Glacier does not exist, but the Cold Ocean does.
- The Vilhon Reach has not yet been formed. The Jhaamdathi coast (though of course this is long before Jhaamdath) is based on the map in Grand History of the Realms
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- Raurin does not exist and the Raurin Basin is more fertile, with the River Amis (from Desert of Desolation) running through it.
- The coast of Sembia is smoother, without the big bay indentations formed by exploding Netherese enclaves (I have a feeling that maybe only one of the bays was formed that way rather than all of them, so I might have to fix that).
So far this is just an outline to show the borders dynamically shifting, as I was trying to avoid having to redraw all the forests to reflect the much greater coverage of the time (I have a lower res map here showcasing that, but the map is too small to show the thrust of the wars themselves). I think I'll have to bite the bullet on that and do that for more "zoomed in" areas of the conflict themselves. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2024 : 05:47:13
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The river Agis formed after the fall of Imaskar. It did not exist in -12000 DR.
But given that the area is a large basin it would no doubt have several rivers flowing into it from the surrounding mountains. Some might even reach the Gbor Nor to the north.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2024 : 18:41:07
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River Athis, rather. My brain failed on that one. I also forgot the river started from the spring in Terabakar rather than somewhere else (I put it in Lonely Lake). Was it formed after Imaskar fell, presumably when Bakar was founded? Interesting. That makes sense.
Good point that the topography of Raurin would encourage rivers to probably flow north into Brightstar Lake. The map of Imaskar in Grand History of the Realms doesn't show any rivers in the area, but they'd presumably have to exist (otherwise Raurin would have been a desert long before Imaskar...unless it was, and the Imaskari tamed it with magic? Nice idea but I don't think supported by any canon). |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2024 : 04:38:06
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| That's nice. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2024 : 07:08:08
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| I don’t want to veer the discussion off but I would like to play a campaign or even a wargame set in those crown wars. Tricky tactics and total, 30yw style destruction is what I envision. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2024 : 23:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Giant Snake
I don’t want to veer the discussion off but I would like to play a campaign or even a wargame set in those crown wars. Tricky tactics and total, 30yw style destruction is what I envision.
I think it'd be interesting but difficult. A war fought by elves who have zero problem spending thirty years fighting a single campaign over a small geographic area, replenishing and reinforcing and then attacking again. I see it as massive, violent battles with horrendous magic, interspersed by years or decades of boredom.
I think it would be hard for humans to relate to, but a necessity given elves' much lower and slower birthrate (as it stands it appears the Crown Wars seriously depopulated the elven species as a whole). |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2024 : 12:37:42
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Sounds pretty apocalyptic but I could envision it. If you’ve read a lot of sci fi or even maybe really outstanding examples of historical total war (ancient Chinese Warring States eclipses all in my opinion) then, yeah I think I can picture it.
Now what would be the question: would the elves be bringing all of the crazy weaponry and mounts they are noted for having on Evermeet or would they have more commonly armed rank and file? Also would the Drow be basically armed the same way at this time? I can’t picture them having massive lizard riding forces.
In all it would be a really fun and worthwhile endeavor for a campaign and I can picture in my head all sorts of artistic differences between the elves of that time. Subtle differences except with the Drow they probably would look more like ‘evil high elves’ in this case rather than their later incarnations after millenia underground. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2024 : 23:55:09
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They're not drow until the descent, although they are "dark elves" (apparently the descendants of wild and wood/jungle elves who were corrupted by Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur very early on, and later basically converted to the worship of Lolth). So before the descent they certainly are using evil magic, but the whole Underdark orientation we see in the drow is not present. As Lolth worshippers, the spider thing would be around though (and IIRC driders did show up during the Crown Wars, possibly for the very first time).
I suspect the elves would have a fair bit of the hardcore stuff we see Evermeet having, but all sides having access to it, and possibly more. There's no mention of spelljammers, so the Crown Wars may have been pre-contact with the wider elves of wildspace, so they might not have spelljammers available at that point but quite a lot of other things. Really insane magic, like Elven High Magic, does seem to have not been in everyday use, from practicality (High Magic rituals being long, complicated and vulnerable) and also from morality, the Seldarine not likely approving of the use of High Magic to kill fellow elves (at least until the true depravities of the dark elves and later the Vyshaan become clearer). |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2024 : 02:17:05
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| I like a well written story where elves are both highly advanced and capable and bring all sorts of wild methods to bear, but I also like to have them grounded still. I like limitations on magic items in the game for the same reason as I think it could be very easy for even a powerful elf master to get crushed underneath a chariot or something. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2024 : 02:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
They're not drow until the descent, although they are "dark elves" (apparently the descendants of wild and wood/jungle elves who were corrupted by Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur very early on, and later basically converted to the worship of Lolth).
Just the dark elves.
There are few details on pre-Descent dark elves, but see in Ed Greenwood's Q&A (2007).
quote:
I suspect the elves would have a fair bit of the hardcore stuff we see Evermeet having, but all sides having access to it, and possibly more.
The main difference was that High Magic was a lot safer, especially when not pushed beyond reasonable limits (creation of Evermeet, etc).
But also, quite an obscene amount of accumulated resources.
Consider Telantiwar.
The strain of a centuries-long war against Aryvandaar presumably taxed Ilythiir. Sure, they made new weapons of all sorts, but those were thrown into the war.
Then they were suddenly deprived of their High Magic. A big bunch of the desperate refugees grabbed what they could and ran. At which point they had enough of mojo to decisively overrun the dwarves in their own terrain.
Then they settled for a while and began to fight for dominance, and still had enough of raw power to make Great Rift when all this went in one big spellstorm.
So, what could they have before the war and during the quieter parts of it?
quote:
Really insane magic, like Elven High Magic, does seem to have not been in everyday use, from practicality
There's a great difference between "not spamming Killing Storms or curses" and "not been in everyday use". Defensive and utility spell-fields, landscape modification, binding various critters, altering wildlife (including that blue moss thing), item creation... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2024 : 07:42:49
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| Have you done territories of the same elves on Faerun in the 1300s/1400s? |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2024 : 00:45:51
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That moment of mounting horror when I realised that 1) Imaskar spans both Faerûn and Kara-Tur and 2) my Faerûn and Kara-Tur maps are at completely different scales, requiring the creation of a brand-new map spanning the area that is consistent with both.
Still, mostly done now.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2024 : 15:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Historical Maps of the Forgotten Realms 07: The Elven Reconstruction and Era of Skyfire
In which we learn of Lord Calim, Supreme Master of Branding. If he was more modern-minded, he would totally have a merch store selling expensive clothing with his name and face emblazoned on it.
Love that you did this. Historical era maps are a great thing to develop given all the moving parts in this world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Topic |
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Nations & History of the Forgotten Realms (Maps)
