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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 05:32:24
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The sanitizing is nothing new; Paizo is now throwing a fit about slavery in its campaign setting despite a substantial part of the setting being a theocratic monarchy that worships Asmodeus.
Which is kind of funny, since the Lawful Evil gnome hellknight Satan-worshipper in wrath of the righteous is widely hailed to be one of the game's best characters. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 08:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Whole pages of lore have been removed from digital copies of Volo's Guide to Monsters without the buyers' permission. This isn't errata, it's book-burning. Didn't Amazon get in trouble for this sort of Orwellian nonsense a few years ago?
There were, as I recall, issues with the way Amazon did it...
But one thing you have to keep in mind: electronic copies of files, whether it's an ebook, a movie, software that you dropped a grand on -- you don't own it. You're paying for the right to use a copy, and the owner is retaining the right to change that copy or even tell you you can't use it any more.
I'm not saying it's right; I find it highly objectionable, myself. But it's a common thing in today's digital world: you're essentially renting things, not buying them, and the EULAs/Terms & Conditions that no one ever reads give the companies the right to utterly leave you hanging with absolutely no recourse.
Their actions are the kind of unilateral garbage that help to provide pirates with ammunition.
P.S. If you (the broad "you" and not you specifically, Wooly) back up your copies for private use, I highly doubt WOTC is going to send a S.W.A.T. team to your residence in order to secure a few PDFs. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 10:04:11
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| People realize that you can go out, RIGHT NOW, and buy the books they're changing digitally to maintain the pre-changed form. If you want Volo's Guide without he redactions, go get it. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 10:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Whole pages of lore have been removed from digital copies of Volo's Guide to Monsters without the buyers' permission. This isn't errata, it's book-burning. Didn't Amazon get in trouble for this sort of Orwellian nonsense a few years ago?
There were, as I recall, issues with the way Amazon did it...
But one thing you have to keep in mind: electronic copies of files, whether it's an ebook, a movie, software that you dropped a grand on -- you don't own it. You're paying for the right to use a copy, and the owner is retaining the right to change that copy or even tell you you can't use it any more.
I'm not saying it's right; I find it highly objectionable, myself. But it's a common thing in today's digital world: you're essentially renting things, not buying them, and the EULAs/Terms & Conditions that no one ever reads give the companies the right to utterly leave you hanging with absolutely no recourse.
Their actions are the kind of unilateral garbage that help to provide pirates with ammunition.
P.S. If you (the broad "you" and not you specifically, Wooly) back up your copies for private use, I highly doubt WOTC is going to send a S.W.A.T. team to your residence in order to secure a few PDFs.
I actually do not doubt the reactionary and often ridiculously short sighted and counter productive activities of WoTC.
If Wotc found out that somebody was creating backups I'm undecided as to whether WoTC would issue a cease and desist order alongside a compensation order backed up by a team of 50 lawyers or more just because they can.
Their activities with regards to out of print books and digital copies prove they cannot see beyond the bean counters in their organisation and big business is infamous for making really stupid decisions out of pure incompetence.
Never underestimate a board room full of fools. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 10:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
People realize that you can go out, RIGHT NOW, and buy the books they're changing digitally to maintain the pre-changed form. If you want Volo's Guide without he redactions, go get it.
Apparently it's not that easy, this is from the reddit thread linked above:
quote:
Originally posted by UncleCyborg on reddit
Yes. There was a thread recently with some guy saying, "Hey, I got a new PHB and all the alignment stuff under races was removed." He got a bunch of comments to the effect of, "No, you dummy, it's all still there." Then literally a few hours later, the new PHB errata hit the web, and the alignment stuff has been removed from the PHB. So even now, reprinted editions are going out.
Also I don't know: if someone got the digital copy are they entitled a free printed one? Otherwise they would need to pay twice for something which isn't really cool ...
Anyway, and this is a general comment, not directed at Diffan specifically, this whole thing is not the end of any fictional world but it's still pretty f****d up. Would be nice to see people ordinarily in the "5E camp" actually acknowledge this f**k up for what it is instead of downplaying it's meaning. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 11:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
People realize that you can go out, RIGHT NOW, and buy the books they're changing digitally to maintain the pre-changed form. If you want Volo's Guide without he redactions, go get it.
Apparently it's not that easy, this is from the reddit thread linked above:
quote:
Originally posted by UncleCyborg on reddit
Yes. There was a thread recently with some guy saying, "Hey, I got a new PHB and all the alignment stuff under races was removed." He got a bunch of comments to the effect of, "No, you dummy, it's all still there." Then literally a few hours later, the new PHB errata hit the web, and the alignment stuff has been removed from the PHB. So even now, reprinted editions are going out.
Also I don't know: if someone got the digital copy are they entitled a free printed one? Otherwise they would need to pay twice for something which isn't really cool ...
Anyway, and this is a general comment, not directed at Diffan specifically, this whole thing is not the end of any fictional world but it's still pretty f****d up. Would be nice to see people ordinarily in the "5E camp" actually acknowledge this f**k up for what it is instead of downplaying it's meaning.
Because it's not F**K up? Lets understand that what WotC has been doing for a while - and not just this thing but MANY YEARS of it - hasn't been new or surprising. They've been going in this direction for years. I'm actually surprised people are still surprised at this point. Thing is, generally speaking, if the changes bothered people then maybe this isn't the edition/company for them (collectively speaking)?
If anything, this should help people realize if they want to continue to support or buy things from a company that does this. IF there's as big of a backlash as people are claiming on the internet - well WotC will feel it in their pocketbook. But in reality, I haven't seen any indication that WotC's sales are slowing down or taking a hit because of their directional changes. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 11:35:07
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In time, will there be mass insinuations of prejudicial behavior concerning people that prefer the original material? I wonder...
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Whole pages of lore have been removed from digital copies of Volo's Guide to Monsters without the buyers' permission. This isn't errata, it's book-burning. Didn't Amazon get in trouble for this sort of Orwellian nonsense a few years ago?
There were, as I recall, issues with the way Amazon did it...
But one thing you have to keep in mind: electronic copies of files, whether it's an ebook, a movie, software that you dropped a grand on -- you don't own it. You're paying for the right to use a copy, and the owner is retaining the right to change that copy or even tell you you can't use it any more.
I'm not saying it's right; I find it highly objectionable, myself. But it's a common thing in today's digital world: you're essentially renting things, not buying them, and the EULAs/Terms & Conditions that no one ever reads give the companies the right to utterly leave you hanging with absolutely no recourse.
Their actions are the kind of unilateral garbage that help to provide pirates with ammunition.
P.S. If you (the broad "you" and not you specifically, Wooly) back up your copies for private use, I highly doubt WOTC is going to send a S.W.A.T. team to your residence in order to secure a few PDFs.
I actually do not doubt the reactionary and often ridiculously short sighted and counter productive activities of WoTC.
If Wotc found out that somebody was creating backups I'm undecided as to whether WoTC would issue a cease and desist order alongside a compensation order backed up by a team of 50 lawyers or more just because they can.
Their activities with regards to out of print books and digital copies prove they cannot see beyond the bean counters in their organisation and big business is infamous for making really stupid decisions out of pure incompetence.
Never underestimate a board room full of fools.
A) They'd have to discover that someone is in fact engaging in behavior they find unacceptable. Obviously, there is more than one person out in the world that is keeping backups and not all of them are broadcasting their intentions.
B) They'd have to decide whether they want to allocate company funds for the necessary legal action required to address x amount of potential defendants.
C) They'd have to arrive at the conclusion that the inevitable public relations backlash is defensible and not in any way going to hurt their bottom line.
Not impossible, no, but I wonder what would motivate them to launch an inquisition of that scale. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 16:15:00
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If people make backups of files they've legally acquired, no company can touch those backups. A lot of companies will fight like hell to keep you from being able to make a copy, but in the US, you have the legal right to backup your files. The main caveat is that it's for personal use only.
So, while WotC has done some highly questionable things in the past, like pulling ALL digital files in response to 4E books being pirated, they cannot and will not go after people for making backups. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 16:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
[br
Also I don't know: if someone got the digital copy are they entitled a free printed one? Otherwise they would need to pay twice for something which isn't really cool ...
A lot of gaming companies do it the other way around. PDFs are cheaper than the printed books, and if you buy the printed book directly from them, either the pdf is steeply discounted or free.
I don't know of any companies that give you the book if you buy the pdf. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2021 : 18:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If people make backups of files they've legally acquired, no company can touch those backups. A lot of companies will fight like hell to keep you from being able to make a copy, but in the US, you have the legal right to backup your files. The main caveat is that it's for personal use only.
So, while WotC has done some highly questionable things in the past, like pulling ALL digital files in response to 4E books being pirated, they cannot and will not go after people for making backups.
That is why the EULA appended to digital files involves a primarily theoretical set of circumstances: there isn't a company - barring those with severely idiotic people at the helm - willing to waste the money, time and public image to hunt down CDs/DVDs/Blu-Rays/hard drives of everyday owners. However, if you must sign in or require a constant internet connection to access files (i.e., these PDFs), then I can understand a fussy company fiddling around with that content post-consumer purchase..."understand", mind you and not "agree with". |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 00:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
quote:
Tomb of Annihilation: Mad Monkey Fever has been replaced with Blue Mist Fever. And I can see why.
Didnt even know that was a thing.
I had to do some online searching to understand the "why". Urban Dictionary provided some juvenile yet enlightening summaries of "why" the original term could be misunderstood or perceived as inappropriate.
There are times when something that should have stayed obscure becomes more widely known/popular because of attempts such as these. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 02:29:24
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quote:
People realize that you can go out, RIGHT NOW, and buy the books they're changing digitally to maintain the pre-changed form. If you want Volo's Guide without he redactions, go get it.
quote:
Apparently it's not that easy, this is from the reddit thread linked above:
It isn't as hard as the publishers want it to be. Anything displayed on your computer can be captured and saved locally. Anything encoded in a vendor-locked or DRM-encoded format can be exported or transcoded into a standard audio or video or PDF format you're free to enjoy any way you like on any machinery you own.
You don't even have to be very tech-savvy. There's plenty of free and simple (and legal) software all over the place which can do these things for you.
Wizbro has broken (and backpedaled, and retconned) too many promises for me to entrust "my" purchases to their care. Maybe they're incompetent, maybe they're unethical, maybe they're Orwellian, maybe it doesn't matter. If I buy a book from them then I insist on having my own copy in my own home. Foolish to store "your" stuff on a cloud - clouds tend to drift and disperse every time the weather changes. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Dec 2021 02:38:58 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 03:00:18
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| Hell, if you're desperate enough, you can either take screenshots or use an external camera to capture images of your monitor. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 04:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, that was the actual Forgotten Realms lore, though maybe you were sarcastic and I didn't detect it.
What they're saying is that the drow always liked caves, and some of them decided to follow Lolth, though only a minority. No Corellon involved here.
Partly I was being sarcastic...
But I'm legit confused now about what is "Real" for the Forgotten Realms regarding Drow.
Are all Drow still suffering the curse of the Elven High God still or no? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 10:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
They probably retained the high elven god in case it offended drug users, and imposing a punishment upon an entire race sounds too much like genocidal social engineering so that's gone too.
Plus WoTC never bothered to look up the history in the first place so they actually have no clue of the current state of FR anything.
Besides their version of a race of shape changing, gender changing, kewl people that worship a cult of wizards that live on the Sword Coast is much better, so why bother with anything else.
A hole, but no bottom. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 10:06:46
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| At least we are one step closer to a family friendly politically correct game of decimating hordes, ransacking tombs, defending monarchies and trying to one-up Elminster in the wooing arena. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 10:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think you mean politically correct.
Regardless, when I see either term I immediately think "boring as f**k"
I was aiming for emphasis; after all, when we're talking "family friendly", we could be dealing with the Addams or Manson clan  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2021 : 14:41:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think you mean politically correct.
Regardless, when I see either term I immediately think "boring as f**k"
Well, this is just a preview of the books that will be released in 2024. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2021 : 10:41:44
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This scroll does not persuade me to buy more official products from WoTC, whether digital or hardcopy. Even ignoring legal or moral constraints, the material does not seem worth pirating.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2021 : 12:19:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
How likely is it that WOTC will recolor and/or remove certain pieces featured in old FR/D&D supplements?
https://i.imgur.com/wjvVclq.png
Not at all likely. Why waste time and effort changing content of something that only generates a trickle of income? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2021 : 13:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, that was the actual Forgotten Realms lore, though maybe you were sarcastic and I didn't detect it.
What they're saying is that the drow always liked caves, and some of them decided to follow Lolth, though only a minority. No Corellon involved here.
Partly I was being sarcastic...
But I'm legit confused now about what is "Real" for the Forgotten Realms regarding Drow.
Are all Drow still suffering the curse of the Elven High God still or no?
No, no curse apparently. Maybe for the better (even in the original lore, I would have much preferred that the drow were simply forcefully driven underground by the remaining elven nations after losing the Crown Wars). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Dec 2021 16:48:11 |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2021 : 16:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
How likely is it that WOTC will recolor and/or remove certain pieces featured in old FR/D&D supplements?
https://i.imgur.com/wjvVclq.png
They're more likely to stop selling them (which I think is likely at some point in the near future). They've already slapped a disclaimer on all their old products:
"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end."
But you know this disclaimer won't be good enough in a few years. We're currently living through a purity spiral, which demands more and more zealotry with each passing year. It will not end well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2021 : 17:02:14
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Enough of that "purity spiral" kind of thing, please. It's been proven time and time again that we are not capable of holding civil discourse on such topics, here.
As for ceasing sales of prior edition materials, I think it highly unlikely. The disclaimer that some already rail against covers any issues there, and ending those sales would end a revenue stream for them. Honestly, I don't think it will even occur to them to touch those books again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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New errata to the drow and other books
