quote:

---

Originally posted by lordsknight185
I feel like this is the curse of someone who has been as Realms obsessed as us for the past 20 years (or 30+ for alot of the people here!).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordsknight185
Sometimes it feels like it would take a game run by Ed Greenwood himself to experience something fresh and exciting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lordsknight185
I know that when I am a player I will never feel like I am playing in the "real" Realms because most newer players just don't understand or care about anything that hasn't been slapped into a 5e product, and I have come to terms with that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighOne

Honestly, it's not even the surface details that make it the Forgotten Realms for me. It's the sense that the DM actually likes the setting and is doing his/her best to bring it to life. Whether they get all the details right isn't as important as whether they're genuinely having fun with the lore (exploring it, that is, not purposely re-writing it).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelcimer

So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah. With 30000 years of recorded history, no matter how well guarded you have some info, there is certain info that must have to be spread no matter what, or the setting will have no verisimilitude. One of such kinds of info is that of interaction with other peoples. Specially in a setting where merchants are as important as they are in the Realms. Again, the problem is the timespan of the recorded history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Also, alignment is another thing that takes away verisimilitude of D&D in general. Even in Planescape they say alignment is what people interprets it is (alignments are not objective, definite things in D&D, as someone more knowledgeable in Planescape than myself explained to me). So really, people judging others by labels such as "evil" based on alignment only paints the Realms in a negative way, seeing that the Evil alignment is just what people determine is evil.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gelcur

I continue to use the 3E population demographic break downs when I need to randomly fill a room or even when I'm at a loss as to what race to make an NPC. I loved that those were published. There are some regions that have Orcs or Lizardfolk or even Yuan-ti populations large enough to have their own percentages. But for the most part every region has a 1% other catch all where all these non-traditional even some of the rare traditional races fit. Even Waterdeep with its metropolitan nature and its high abundance of non-human races still breaks down since there is an even higher density of humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings living there.

To the points made above there are regions where things are very different than the Heartlands. If you look in the Underdark book from 3E, you get some interesting places like Gatchorof 98% githyanki and 2% Red Dragon or Ch'Chitl its free population is 98% illithid and 2% illithilich and its thrall population of 95% quaggoth, 1% drow, 1% duergar, 1% human, 1% shield dwarf, 1% svirfneblin. It goes on, there are plenty of hidden places with populations large enough of goblins, kobolds, azers, trolls, beholders, grimlocks, minotaurs, and ogres all to be enough to get their own percentage. Found one where outsider was 5% rather than being lumped into the other category. Undrek’Thoz has a 1% tiefling population.

---

In places like Waterdeep, I picture it to be like some bars and such in our world where they become known as gathering points for a group from elsewhere or with certain lifestyle views. So, like in New York there's bars that cater to Canadians, etc... We know that in Waterdeep there's at least one bar that caters to elves. I'd bet Waterdeep has a few bars where it might be common to find a mix of cultures (even moreso in Skullport though). However, these places would probably be known for this feature, so people going there would likely know what to expect. If a party is going to a place like this, it would be something that the DM should stress "this might be a culture shock" OR if members of the party are from these groups "it feels like coming home".

---

Read up on the Misty Beard, in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep. There's also the Crawling Spider, for those that find comfort in an Underdark-like setting. And IIRC, the Bowels of the Earth has a primarily dwarven clientele.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelcimer

So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?

---

-I can't speak for him, but that would 100% impact my enjoyment of the game. I've never DMed a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, when I do play it is in my own homebrewed world. Part of my enjoyment as a DM is to share my world via the game to the players and to see them then take it in, learn about it, interact with it, and enjoy it. Playing in a pre-made world that you love, I would assume the feeling is very much the same, feeling enjoyment by sharing your love of the world and seeing the players get enjoyment from it and also love it.

-Obviously, you need to know your players. I've played with people who didn't really give much of a damn about anything that wasn't combat or combat-related (buying/selling gear, questing for items, leveling up, etc.). I got less enjoyment with those players because the level of emotions that I was putting into things weren't reciprocated equally (even though they were having fun). I've played with people who, in the course of the game, wanted details and information of things that I didn't even prepare for, because I didn't think those kinds of details would be needed/relevant. Everybody has to be on the same wavelength in terms of playing styles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelcimer

Hello Lord Karsus!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelcimer

So what if other players are not taking a deep interest in the lore? Their characters wouldn't know all of that lore. As long as they are playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore? Why should that impact your enjoyment of the game?

---

-I can't speak for him, but that would 100% impact my enjoyment of the game. I've never DMed a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, when I do play it is in my own homebrewed world. Part of my enjoyment as a DM is to share my world via the game to the players and to see them then take it in, learn about it, interact with it, and enjoy it. Playing in a pre-made world that you love, I would assume the feeling is very much the same, feeling enjoyment by sharing your love of the world and seeing the players get enjoyment from it and also love it.

-Obviously, you need to know your players. I've played with people who didn't really give much of a damn about anything that wasn't combat or combat-related (buying/selling gear, questing for items, leveling up, etc.). I got less enjoyment with those players because the level of emotions that I was putting into things weren't reciprocated equally (even though they were having fun). I've played with people who, in the course of the game, wanted details and information of things that I didn't even prepare for, because I didn't think those kinds of details would be needed/relevant. Everybody has to be on the same wavelength in terms of playing styles.

---

I think there is a minor bit of confusion. He wasn't saying that the other players were not into roleplaying. You can have players who are totally into the roleplaying, they find the world interesting, but they don't spend any time out-of-game learning about FR beyond maybe character creation. It is just not on their list of priorities. Basically the majority of the info they get about FR is what is presented to them in-game. They are medium to great role-players, just they don't have more than a passing interest in learning about the Realms.

For clarity, as long as the players are into the world, roleplaying, and playing their characters consistent with the world as presented by the DM, then what does it matter that the players don't have a deep appreciation of the lore?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar
Kelcimer, I would argue that a Forgotten Realms DM doing their job right will naturally incentivize players* - be it subconsciously or consciously - to take an active interest in the lore.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar

3,000 or 30,000 or 300,000 is all a blink of an eye. The exact figure is - quite frankly - immaterial. Those zeros backing what we perceive to be an impressive span of time don't matter much when a setting is comfortably abiding by Medieval Stasis. Any change to the status quo is often an event of epic proportions instead of "business as usual". People fear fiends and dragons "today" the same way they did millennia ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar

I know that a few settings* like to play fast-and-loose with Alignment (Planescape is focused on Law versus Chaos...there are CELESTIAL BEINGS making literal deals with the devil and somehow keeping their Good Alignment, for Pete's sake), but The Forgotten Realms still has black-and-white good versus evil in addition to the wide range of moral greyness. There are unabashedly evil "mortal" races in the mix. Detect Evil is a well-established spell/power. One cannot cheat the cosmic forces of ethics and morality forever.

At the end of the day, people want their escapism. Even if another world awash in murky morality makes for an occasionally interesting diversion, the classics - dare I say, fundamentals - will never be abandoned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hah, here is the thing. You can't ask for verisimilitude and then use justifications like "medieval stasis". Those two things are mutually exclusive, specifically in the Realms, were there are no actual reasons for such stasis to be maintained. Because, yes, medieval stasis needs a logical reason to happen, as the page you linked points out.

And, like the last century has enough RSEs to justify any changes to the status quo. The last one a mere decade ago, by the current Realms' year in 5e.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromark X

And the so-called "fundamentals" are changing, whether we like it or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas

Just one thing about good/evil and fundamentals and things changing, etc.... it should be noted that concepts like a spell that detects good and evil is no longer part of the game. Spells that detect people's alignments are no longer a part of the game. You can still do spells that might let you read someone's mind for instance, but you can't get a "hello, this guy's evil so its ok to stick him with a sword" detection. You have to sift through what they think, and may get an unclear picture, or may be lied to and not realize it, etc.... and then use your judgment over whether it is right or wrong to kill them.

New monsters being written up aren't even given alignments. That being said, few of them are being given clear motivations, etc... I won't say alignment will go away, but it being a placard that clearly delineates a person's mindset is going away.... and honestly, I'm of mixed feelings on that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomCosta

It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomCosta

It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.

---

What does "The Forgotten Realms" mean to you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomCosta

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomCosta

It's not my intent to be rude or dodge the question, but I don't like litmus tests. The cool thing about D&D and the Realms is you can make them your own. If I run a game, I try to involve a fair bit of lore, but I don't balk if someone else runs a Realms game that reimagines things.

---

What does "The Forgotten Realms" mean to you?

---

It's a well developed setting with a lot of history and lore, which I try to incorporate into my characters and when I'm a DM, the game. For example, most of my characters have at least a page of background history that integrates them into the Realms. And when I ran Ghosts of Saltmarsh as a DM, I placed it along the northern border of Turmish. I researched Turmish, the Pirate Isles, etc, and modified character names and place names to have it all fit. I do that because its fun for me and hopefully those I play with. But I've played plenty of fun games where the DM didn't know and didn't care much about the lore and history, which worked out just fine. Heck most of the 5E hardcover books despite being placed in the Realms are fairly light on lore, but have still been excellent to play through. It's all the Realms. It doesn't have to be the way I would do it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

For example, if Waterdeep never existed, that's one thing. If it existed but was destroyed by a flight of dragons during the Rage of Dragons storyline, that's another thing. The end result for both is no Waterdeep -- but how it happens is as important as what happens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar


Back during those 3.5e heydays, I would read both PBP games and regular tabletop gaming diaries/journals/logs as a way of getting myself psyched for a potential Forgotten Realms campaign of my own. There was this DM that removed the big ones...Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Tantras and the like. Basically, if the city was populous, especially famous or both, it didn't exist. From what I can recall, he did this to enforce a Faerun where there was less consolidated power and where the formidable NPCs were less tethered to any one nation.

Were I to play in a campaign limited to a single mid-sized region, it is entirely possible that my character would never come close to the vicinity of a grand city. However, knowing in advance that the major population centers had been edited out would have elicited at least a moderate reaction from me, considering my sensibilities. "Knockoff" doesn't quite fit...no, I think "diet-" or "-lite" is a more apt descriptor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by Azar


Back during those 3.5e heydays, I would read both PBP games and regular tabletop gaming diaries/journals/logs as a way of getting myself psyched for a potential Forgotten Realms campaign of my own. There was this DM that removed the big ones...Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Tantras and the like. Basically, if the city was populous, especially famous or both, it didn't exist. From what I can recall, he did this to enforce a Faerun where there was less consolidated power and where the formidable NPCs were less tethered to any one nation.

Were I to play in a campaign limited to a single mid-sized region, it is entirely possible that my character would never come close to the vicinity of a grand city. However, knowing in advance that the major population centers had been edited out would have elicited at least a moderate reaction from me, considering my sensibilities. "Knockoff" doesn't quite fit...no, I think "diet-" or "-lite" is a more apt descriptor.

---

At that point, it is no more effort to just build a campaign setting from scratch. Eliminating populations centers has some major ripple effects in terms of economies. Long distance caravans basically go bye-bye because there are no roads connecting no-longer-extant waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. No more Cormyr, or least Cormyr would have to be reworked to something unrecognizable because the Crown and central government are neutralized.

No need or funding for standing armies. You probably do not necessarily need the existence of Harpers, Zhentarim or major temples. Religious edifices are basically shrines.

---