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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  03:06:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've shared my thoughts on Bane 2.0 and Iyachtu Xvim many times in the past, here.

However, I was recently given a couple more things to add to my list of reasons to speculate.

I've decided that instead of continuing to post and repost my thoughts, it would work better if I collected them all in one place.

And I've cleaned up the list a bit, too; it should be easier to read it all, now.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  03:07:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are some things about Bane 2.0 that have bugged me. And it's a lot of things, scattered all about.

  • Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.


  • Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Iyachtu Xvim favored green and black. Bane 2.0 favors Xvim's colors, not Bane 1.0's colors.


  • There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.


  • The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands.

    Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Anyone who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. Think about that. Bane's existing and former worshippers didn't get the vision -- only Xvim's followers, most of whom did convert to Bane. So Bane 2.0 gets those who were already faithful to him, and Xvim's followers, as well -- making a combined base of worshippers larger than what either deity had, before that vision was sent.


  • Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity other than Bane, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.


  • Xvim pretending to be his father is already an established thing, in Realmslore. The Empires of the Shining Sea boxed set repeatedly references Teldorn Darkhope, saying that he believes he's serving Bane, but that he's actually serving Xvim. For example, on page 153, his info is given as: "Teldorn Darkhope (LE hm P9 of "Bane" [really lyachtu Xvim]; really an authlim, but thinks he is a dreadmaster), Conqueror of Mintar, Tyrant of Kzelter. Lord of the Knights of the Black Gauntlet."

    It also says, on page 155:

    "The Temple of the Dark Lord, the temple at which Teldorn Darkhope received the visions that launched him on his schemes of conquest. Unknown to Darkhope, it was not Bane who was whispering tales of conquest and reward into his ears—it was actually Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson of Bane. Darkhope remains unaware of the deception to this day, but he suspects Bane may not be of the power he once was."


  • There is also, in canon Realmslore, a heresy that point-blank states that Bane 2.0 is Xvim pretending to be his father. In "Monument of the Ancients" (Dungeon 170), on page 80:

    "The priests of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan subscribe to the heresy that Bane was utterly destroyed by Torm during the Time of Troubles. The being they worship as Bane today, the heretical priests say, is in fact none other than the Godson of Bane, Iyachtu Xvim, having adopted his father’s name to more quickly achieve the status and power of a greater god."

What does all of this mean?

As I see it, there are three possibilities.

1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit.

2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and some aspects of him remain dominant and still have influence over the whole.

3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation.

It is my opinion that option 1 is unlikely enough to be dismissed. Option 2 was my original theory. Option 3 is the one I currently favor. I like the idea the most, and it is my opinion that it is the option most strongly supported in the lore.

Of course, it's all theories, and none of this evidence is conclusive. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture that works for me, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things.

It also is likely moot, with the current trend of less lore and nothing being canon unless the current design team wrote it.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Aug 2021 03:15:56
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Gelcur
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  07:16:34  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wonderful write up gathering all your info and sources in one place. I'm convinced of option 3. Though I'd still leave Bane lurking somewhere, Myrkul hid in an object, Bhaal split amongst his spawn, what if Bane hid in a location.

So in the book "Undead", Szass Tam summons an audience with Bane. We could assume this is Xvim as well, or maybe this was Bane 1.0, I don't have a copy of the book but apparently it is in Chapter 8. Maybe the imagery there could lend to which Bane it was. But if it were 1.0 then maybe he is hiding as part of Thay. Bane did covet Mystra's power often enough. And Thay is a land strong in magic because of the Athora, see "Tyrants in Scarlet" by George and Ed. Part of the deal struck with Szass Tam was that Bane would be the new official religion of Thay, and the Banite priests would be there to "help". Maybe Bane learned of the Athora or was trying to learn as to why Thay was so magical. With Mystra's agents having been told specifically to leave that area alone Bane could be left to his devices for say a thousand years, also part of his deal with Szass Tam.

*Note the lore and history of the Eastern part of Faerun isn't a strong suit of mine, I might be missing something obvious.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.

Edited by - Gelcur on 17 Aug 2021 07:17:39
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  13:23:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Wonderful write up gathering all your info and sources in one place. I'm convinced of option 3. Though I'd still leave Bane lurking somewhere, Myrkul hid in an object, Bhaal split amongst his spawn, what if Bane hid in a location.



I'm not a fan of the Dead Three returning. I've reluctantly come to accept the current canon, but I think bringing the Dead Three back was a mistake (one of many).

Partially, this is because I came into the Realms during the ToT. None of the three was presented favorably, then. Bane was evil for evil's sake, Myrkul was a "ooh, death is scary" cliché, and Bhaal was "gotta kill 'em all!" I don't have the attachment to them from before then that some others have, and nothing I've seen since then challenged that initial bad first impression.

Plus, I think that Myrkul in the Crown of Horns offers far more role-playing potential than him going back to a divinity that it is established in canon he didn't want back.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  14:23:02  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul's brand of evil is hilarious.

In NWN2: MotB, you're possessed by a fraction of a sentient soul-eating curse that was a former high priest of Myrkul that ended up being cursed by his god, and eventually have the chance to subsume Myrkul's soul. Later on, you meet the woman said high priest betrayed his god for, and if you're feeling particularly vindictive (she's the reason you're saddled with the curse to begin with), you can attempt to devour her soul.

The part of you that's the high priest struggles to resist, recognizing his lover even in his maddened rabid state.

Myrkul's devoured spirit then simply overwhelms the high priest with his sheer spite and wrath, and you end up devouring the lover's soul.

That's a special kind of evil.

And, well, to be fair, the high priest only rebelled against Myrkul (whose priesthood had taken him and his brother in when they were abandoned at the church's doorstep as infants) because his lover was Faithless. He then ended up invading Bone Castle before Myrkul simply slaps him and his army down.

Edited by - LordofBones on 17 Aug 2021 14:29:13
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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  19:22:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm favored of option 4

4) Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. Bane 1.0 is back in a fleshy body, and that body is the "godflesh of Gilgeam", and he's actually trying to build up enough power to retake his old throne. While he was in Abeir, he was raising an army to help him kill a primordial (Karshimis, the tyrant of Shyr) in a similar bid to rise in power as he and the dark 3 did their first time around.

Meanwhile, Myrkul is back in the godflesh of maybe Nergal and Bhaal is back in the godflesh of one of the Bhaalspawn. Using this idea to explain away the hinky story that the 3 are back by choice in some form of lesser avatar form and only because they introduced that oddity.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  20:09:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm favored of option 4

4) Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. Bane 1.0 is back in a fleshy body, and that body is the "godflesh of Gilgeam", and he's actually trying to build up enough power to retake his old throne. While he was in Abeir, he was raising an army to help him kill a primordial (Karshimis, the tyrant of Shyr) in a similar bid to rise in power as he and the dark 3 did their first time around.


I would say that's more of a 3+ than a separate option.

Is it canon that Bane was in Abeir? I'm not recalling that one.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Meanwhile, Myrkul is back in the godflesh of maybe Nergal and Bhaal is back in the godflesh of one of the Bhaalspawn. Using this idea to explain away the hinky story that the 3 are back by choice in some form of lesser avatar form and only because they introduced that oddity.




I prefer to think that the three are no more than avatars, given a chance to work back up to full divinity, but claiming for PR purposes that it's a choice.

That's my way of spinning that bit of canon without tossing it aside. My preference is to toss it aside; it's very problematic, otherwise, and I'm willing to put money on this element having been introduced without any thought to how it fit in with prior lore or how it may further develop.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  20:37:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm favored of option 4

4) Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. Bane 1.0 is back in a fleshy body, and that body is the "godflesh of Gilgeam", and he's actually trying to build up enough power to retake his old throne. While he was in Abeir, he was raising an army to help him kill a primordial (Karshimis, the tyrant of Shyr) in a similar bid to rise in power as he and the dark 3 did their first time around.


I would say that's more of a 3+ than a separate option.

Is it canon that Bane was in Abeir? I'm not recalling that one.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Meanwhile, Myrkul is back in the godflesh of maybe Nergal and Bhaal is back in the godflesh of one of the Bhaalspawn. Using this idea to explain away the hinky story that the 3 are back by choice in some form of lesser avatar form and only because they introduced that oddity.




I prefer to think that the three are no more than avatars, given a chance to work back up to full divinity, but claiming for PR purposes that it's a choice.

That's my way of spinning that bit of canon without tossing it aside. My preference is to toss it aside; it's very problematic, otherwise, and I'm willing to put money on this element having been introduced without any thought to how it fit in with prior lore or how it may further develop.



It's "canon" via novels that GILGEAM was in Abeir in physical form and leading an army to attack Karshimis, but its noted that there's "something different about him". There was also some stuff about him being called the "son of victory".

On that other piece... I have a feeling that they had some goal in mind with the 3, but whether they continue it, I'm unsure. I agree, they should be "avatars", but I like the idea of making them "lesser avatars" .... which is my own term for a situation where the god must occupy some kind of "vessel" like they did during the ToT (versus a regular avatar that they can just create from magic energy).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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rangerstranger
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Posted - 17 Aug 2021 :  23:13:28  Show Profile Send rangerstranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

Wonderful write up gathering all your info and sources in one place. I'm convinced of option 3. Though I'd still leave Bane lurking somewhere, Myrkul hid in an object, Bhaal split amongst his spawn, what if Bane hid in a location.

So in the book "Undead", Szass Tam summons an audience with Bane. We could assume this is Xvim as well, or maybe this was Bane 1.0, I don't have a copy of the book but apparently it is in Chapter 8. Maybe the imagery there could lend to which Bane it was. But if it were 1.0 then maybe he is hiding as part of Thay. Bane did covet Mystra's power often enough. And Thay is a land strong in magic because of the Athora, see "Tyrants in Scarlet" by George and Ed. Part of the deal struck with Szass Tam was that Bane would be the new official religion of Thay, and the Banite priests would be there to "help". Maybe Bane learned of the Athora or was trying to learn as to why Thay was so magical. With Mystra's agents having been told specifically to leave that area alone Bane could be left to his devices for say a thousand years, also part of his deal with Szass Tam.

*Note the lore and history of the Eastern part of Faerun isn't a strong suit of mine, I might be missing something obvious.



Its been about 10 years since reading "Undead" but wasnt there some sort of mist vestige Szass Tam could conjure that was a temporary gift from Bane? Tam conjured it and used it to fight the other Zulkiirs if I remember correctly. This seems oddly similar to the Tyrant Fog.
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George Krashos
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  00:13:34  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erin Evans kept it just that little bit vague. Certainly a powerful entity that called itself Gilgeam came to Toril from Abeir ... but the jury is out as to whether it was the "real" Gilgeam.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  01:15:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Erin Evans kept it just that little bit vague. Certainly a powerful entity that called itself Gilgeam came to Toril from Abeir ... but the jury is out as to whether it was the "real" Gilgeam.

-- George Krashos



Yep, there's a lot of things we can do with it. It's really Gilgeam. It's Bane. It's a son of Gilgeam. It's Xvim. It's a mortal portraying himself as Gilgeam. It's Druaga possessing Gilgeam. It's another demon in Gilgeam's flesh. But, whoever he is, he's not good, and he was willing to work with demons.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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ericlboyd
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  03:19:01  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  03:24:36  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's another kicker:

Bane 2.0 was revealed to have gained Maglubiyet as an exarch in 4e.

Maglubiyet was, in a Dragon article published during the same edition, revealed to have been an exarch of Dawn War Bane.

Bane 2.0 and Dawn War Bane were confirmed as separate entities in a Dragon article, also published in 4e.

Add to this my proposal that there are two different types of aspects - convergent and divergent, with convergent aspects being the traditional avatars that serve as echoes of the original deity, while divergent aspects are separate entities split off from the original deity, with the potential to surpass the original in strength (ex. Tiamat - Takhisis)




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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 18 Aug 2021 03:25:39
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  04:05:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



My theory is that she was a tiefling paladin. She fell and turned to evil (perhaps because of Bane's influence), and it was sometime after that that she hooked up with Bane. Being pregnant with his child kicked her tiefling heritage into overdrive and she wound up becoming full-on fiend.

At least, that's my spin, considering she's been referenced as both a paladin and some flavor of fiend.

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ericlboyd
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  04:19:20  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Specifically, she was described as a demon, which is an interesting choice for Bane.

Also, where was Xvim hiding before he invaded Westgate in the 700s?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



My theory is that she was a tiefling paladin. She fell and turned to evil (perhaps because of Bane's influence), and it was sometime after that that she hooked up with Bane. Being pregnant with his child kicked her tiefling heritage into overdrive and she wound up becoming full-on fiend.

At least, that's my spin, considering she's been referenced as both a paladin and some flavor of fiend.


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Baltas
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  04:22:19  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.


quote:
[i]Originally posted by Wooly

My theory is that she was a tiefling paladin. She fell and turned to evil (perhaps because of Bane's influence), and it was sometime after that that she hooked up with Bane. Being pregnant with his child kicked her tiefling heritage into overdrive and she wound up becoming full-on fiend.

At least, that's my spin, considering she's been referenced as both a paladin and some flavor of fiend.



My own theory is both a bit simikar and different. I think Xvim mother, might be a fallen Paladin, that died and became a fiend.

Kinda like Szuriel in Pathfinder
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Szuriel

Edited by - Baltas on 18 Aug 2021 04:41:17
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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  04:23:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



Wasn't she a succubus paladin of Sune?


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  11:47:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ways of gods are mysterious. They should stay that way.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Aug 2021 :  15:04:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Specifically, she was described as a demon, which is an interesting choice for Bane.

Also, where was Xvim hiding before he invaded Westgate in the 700s?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



My theory is that she was a tiefling paladin. She fell and turned to evil (perhaps because of Bane's influence), and it was sometime after that that she hooked up with Bane. Being pregnant with his child kicked her tiefling heritage into overdrive and she wound up becoming full-on fiend.

At least, that's my spin, considering she's been referenced as both a paladin and some flavor of fiend.






So, just for the fun of it... let's see the actual wording we have and what edition.... from 2e Faiths and Avatars

Iyachtu Xvim, the Godson, is said to be the result of a union between the Black Lord and a greater or a true tanar’ri, and thus the blood of Bane runs through his veins. (Another tale says he is the spawn of the Lord of Darkness and a corrupted paladin.)

So, I THINK at that time for THAT ruleset that there were other beings in the abyss besides tanar'ri (and succubi were still considered tanar'ri).

also, what does he look like

Iyachtu Xvim, in his natural form, is a giant but broad-shouldered 12-foot tall man with brown-black, scaly skin who often goes scantily clothed. He has glowing green eyes and long, unruly black hair. In fact, he looks rather like a large troll, though he is said to be the offspring of Bane and a tanar’ri.

So, just to throw out some really far fetched but fun ideas

He's the son of Bane and Talona, from when Talona was a tanar'ri travelling with the dark three (which adds the concept that Talona was a tanar'ri travelling with the dark three during their rise to power). Talona had been a paladin, who fell from grace for falling in love with Bane. She died, and her soul was transformed into a tanar'ri.

or for something that didn't exist at the time of the writing, and is a "demon" and not necessarily "tanar'ri... but fits the look to a good degree. I venture everyone will hate this one with a passion

He's the son of Bane and a female Mur-Zhagul, or demon troll. The Mur-Zhagul was the daughter of Eltab and a half-troll (the half-troll was the child of an ice troll and a Bheur hag). The Mur-Zhagul was taken in by the wychlaran of Rashemen, specifically a group that would become durthans, and raised to be good after they removed Eltab from rulership of their land. The female Mur-Zhagul became a paladin of a now fallen deity of Raumathar, but as she came of age and travelled on dajemma, she encountered fear of her by all that met her. This hardened her, and Bane began to tempt her from the righteous path. Finally, he seduced her and she became a bloody anti-paladin in the faith of Bane.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TKU
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Posted - 19 Aug 2021 :  06:37:59  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



Wasn't she a succubus paladin of Sune?




Not a Paladin of Sune, but there was Eludecia in 3.5, who was a Succubus Paladin-as unusual a combination as that is.
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DeBasilisk
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Posted - 26 Aug 2021 :  16:17:30  Show Profile Send DeBasilisk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if the current Bane currently in the pantheon is Xvim acting as Bane 2.0 but the Bane demigod/avatar referenced in BG Avernus is Bane 1.0?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Aug 2021 :  16:47:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DeBasilisk

What if the current Bane currently in the pantheon is Xvim acting as Bane 2.0 but the Bane demigod/avatar referenced in BG Avernus is Bane 1.0?



It's not a bad idea. It'd be a great conflict - Bane 1.0 trying to convince people he's the real deal, Bane 2.0 claiming he is (and having the power to back it up).

I expect in that scenario that Xvim would be doing everything he could to stop Daddy Bane -- discrediting him, showing off the power that 2.0 has and 1.0 doesn't, assassins to deal with the issue... Bane 1.0 would be trying to reclaim his power, but he'd have to move far more carefully, because anything he did to weaken Xvim would mean less power for Bane to have once his plots are successful.

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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
297 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2021 :  02:40:02  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm firmly a one here. It is Bane 1.0, the Classic God of Evil. I LIKE the pure dark bloody evil horror of Bane 1.0. The Bane we got only vague shades of, as D&D has mostly been Rated G. I hated Cyric, the idiotic Joker clone and Xvim was just a dull demon thing.

The way I see it, a GREATER POWER deity is somewhere near "all powerful" so they can't die from some silly "pew pew" actions, EVEN during the Time of Troubles. They would be ready for such a "death" and have at least one back up plan. Like Mystra did.....even with Mystra being the worst most awful cheating waste of type and paper being in the whole Realms.

In my Realms Bane was just "wounded" and chose to lay low for a while an let Cyric and Xvim run dumb wild. Then when he came back he squashed Xvim like a bug and gave Cyric a box with a bow on it...and it exploded when he opened it and obliterated that JOKE of a non god forever.

Of course, I was never happy with the sad "oh, no the Realms is 'too adult' for younger gamers so we must alter the reality of the Realms to make it below silly rated G."
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2442 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2021 :  05:44:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was a "late" comer to FR, so I never understood why Xvim has so many fans. For me, he was just a plot of Bane for his eventual return, for a metaplot that was background to me. I'm with bloodtide here: Bane is Bane. Either his 1.0 form, or Achra (NV Bane) taking his place.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2021 :  17:25:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I was a "late" comer to FR, so I never understood why Xvim has so many fans. For me, he was just a plot of Bane for his eventual return, for a metaplot that was background to me. I'm with bloodtide here: Bane is Bane. Either his 1.0 form, or Achra (NV Bane) taking his place.



What I saw in the novels was that Bane 1.0 was the "evil for evil's sake" type. Maybe that's not what was intended, but that's how he came across -- the kind of deity that'd drop-kick a kitten simply because it was evil to do so.

Xvim, when we saw him in action, at least had style. Sure, he was also evil, but he wasn't evil just to be another Evil Overlord™, and his plots and activities made sense.

That's why I like Xvim.

I would wonder, for those who think Bane 2.0 is Bane 1.0, what explanation they would offer for Bane 1.0 changing so many things to match Xvim? Not trying to argue; it's those changes that make me think Bane 2.0 is either some gestalt entity or Xvim faking it. If Bane 2.0 acted like Bane 1.0, I'd accept them as the same entity -- I'd've never considered any other options.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
889 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2021 :  17:35:10  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Scribes,
Assuming Bane 2.0 is Xvim masquerading as Bane, how would he handle specialized divine spellcasters, most specifically authlim.
1. Would they be grandfathered into the new church of Bane?
2. Would they be converted to comparable dreadmasters or standard clerics?
3. Would they have an entirely new role?
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2442 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2021 :  22:14:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

What I saw in the novels was that Bane 1.0 was the "evil for evil's sake" type. Maybe that's not what was intended, but that's how he came across -- the kind of deity that'd drop-kick a kitten simply because it was evil to do so.

Xvim, when we saw him in action, at least had style. Sure, he was also evil, but he wasn't evil just to be another Evil Overlord™, and his plots and activities made sense.

That's why I like Xvim.

I would wonder, for those who think Bane 2.0 is Bane 1.0, what explanation they would offer for Bane 1.0 changing so many things to match Xvim? Not trying to argue; it's those changes that make me think Bane 2.0 is either some gestalt entity or Xvim faking it. If Bane 2.0 acted like Bane 1.0, I'd accept them as the same entity -- I'd've never considered any other options.



Well, since I got to the Realms nearly at the end of 3.x/the start of 4e, I already experimented the changed Bane. I didn't knew that there was a difference until read some posts here, years later. So, when I used Bane in my earlier campaigns, he was Bane 1.0. Xvim to me was some random NPC I even didn't knew much about.

Now I tend to believe that the Bane 2.0 is either Bane fused with Xvim or, as mentioned before, that Achra took Bane's domain in the Realms. My players don't care, so the topic has never become something relevant in my campaigns. I don't know much of Xvim to say if he is really something like Bane 2.0, tho.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe

USA
136 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2021 :  06:56:48  Show Profile Send Kelcimer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
My players don't care, so the topic has never become something relevant in my campaigns. I don't know much of Xvim to say if he is really something like Bane 2.0, tho.



I kinda feel the same. It seems like one of those real world religious schisms. To people inside the schism it is a matter of life and death, but to those people outside of it, they can't really tell what it is about.

I recognize that there is continuity in that direction. I don't do anything to reference it, and neither do I do anything to contradict it. If I should ever have a player who cares about it, then it is there.

I vaguely remember when the Bane was brought back. What I thought at the time was that this was a way of undoing one of the unsuccessful consequences of the Times of Trouble. Basically, it seemed to me like "Oh we killed Bane and Cyric isn't working out! We didn't really think that one through. Lets find a way to bring Bane back!" It seemed pretty weak to me, so why not (as a DM) just ignore that whole Time of Troubles thing and just act as if Bane has been here all along?

Not having a dog in this fight, I find Wooly Rupert's analysis pretty interesting. I am persuaded that his option 3 makes for the best story, given the continuity, in and of itself.

That said, I don't think I could find a way to make this piece of information a useful part of an adventure. As a practical matter, why should a player character care? Xvim's deception extends to his own priesthood, so how should the player characters even find out? And what does it matter to any god or priest that this is so? They still have to deal with the Church of Bane as it is.

If I had a player character who was a priest of Bane 1.0, had gone through Cyric and Xvim, and then moved right on to Bane 2.0, how would it even matter to that player character? I don't think it would. Either Bane 2.0 is the kind of God he wants to dedicate himself to or he isn't, and if he worked his way through the previous three gods, then I shouldn't think he'd have a problem with Bane 2.0.

Now if I had a player character who was a priest of Bane 1.0, had sat on the sidelines for a few years during Cyric and Xvim, and came back to the fold with Bane 2.0, how would it even matter to that player character? It might matter a bit. Because he didn't just jump on to the next bandwagon. There could be some interested roleplaying experiences between NPC's and the player about the philosophy of it all. It might be that the player character has to make a choice of "is this god close enough or is it a matter of accept no substitutes?".

Beyond that, how would you bring that detail into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11690 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2021 :  19:11:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding Kelcimer's statements of not quite knowing how to use it in game, from an adventure/plot standpoint and how to use it, this is why I like to get into the nitpicky details of HOW I think Bane 2.0 is xvim and "Gilgeam" is Bane 1.0 wearing "Gilgeam's" meatsuit (and that the "lesser avatar" of Bane that we're told exists of the dark 3 are different than Bane). So, as I see it, "Gilgeam"/Bane 1.0 has a temple of Bane in the city of Mourktar on the borders of northern Unther prior to the spellplague. It's known as "The Black Lord's Cloak" because it is believed to have a "cloak" of the black lord (a divine artifact that he supposedly wore) that's sentient and is said to fly around in secret and drink blood. Perhaps this artifact had willing servants which (like a vampires in stories) allowed it to feed from them (and these were ardent worshippers of Bane.

So, as a story, that portion of Mourktar goes to Abeir (as not all of every city is necessarily affected). The sentient artifact takes this opportunity to retrieve the godflesh of Gilema and... like a vampire... bleeds into the godflesh and animates it. Meanwhile, it starts a heresy while in Abeir that "Gilgeam has always been Bane" (which may have in fact had SOME truth to it... but that's another story for another day). In order to gain power, he intends to slay the primordial tyrant, Karshimis - ruler of the citadel of Ice & Fire in Shyr, and become the tyrant of Shyr in his place. Then the worlds change again. He finds himself back on Toril just as he was about to attack, and he blames Ao for ripping the carpet from beneath his feet yet again. He is now intending to rebuild Unther as a new tyrannical empire.

Where to go from here might have a lot of avenues. It might be that he intends to seize Threskel and portions of Chessenta, meanwhile possibly trying to return to some of his old places of power by revealing his "heresy" that the current Bane is not the true black lord to groups that are currently loyal to Bane 2.0. Possibly he goes into Thay, proposing to Szass Tam that his "agreement" is with Xvim, and that it will be null and void if he helps "Gilgeam"/Bane 1.0 kill Xvim/Bane 2.0. In return, he would allow a return of other deities to Thay (and he makes this known as a means to encourage other dark gods to aid him). In the end, the god of tyranny in the southern and eastern realms might become Gilgeam/Bane 1.0 and areas in the heartland and Moonsea might remain loyal to Xvim. Meanwhile, both deities set their eyes on Telos and his warlock knights.... thinking to conquer the primordial and the power of his body/felliron.

Hmmm, and perhaps the location where Telos' body is located is another link in the portal network recently created by Eric and George (this Garuut-Omrum) that has links at Castle Perilous/Sorceror's Isle/Ironfang Keep. If those are locations with gold, copper, and silver .... this one could be the "felliron portal"... much like I was proposing another link in the citadel of conjurer's with the adamantine seal and some other link in Dun-Tharos (the chardalyn seal? The electrum/brass/bronze/mithril seal? Maybe somewhere in the area is "the bloodstone seal").

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Aug 2021 19:20:30
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2442 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2021 :  20:41:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the only thing that goes against your theory is the name. If Bane 1.0 was Gilgeam, he would have renamed him Banegeam or something like that

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2021 :  20:51:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer

Beyond that, how would you bring that detail into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with?



Well, there's already a canon heresy about it -- which means you could have conflict between those who like Bane 2.0 and those who think Bane 1.0 was better or that there's no way Bane 2.0 could be anything other than Bane himself. You could even have a surviving Banelich, somewhere, on one side of that conflict or the other.

And if Bane 2.0 is Xvim, maybe he doesn't know everything Bane 1.0 knew. Maybe some past arrangement/agreement made by 1.0 comes up, and 2.0 doesn't handle it correctly or doesn't know how to address it. Maybe the culmination of a centuries-old plot is at hand, but no one knows the final step to bring it to proper fruition. Maybe one of the Lost Gods thrown down by the Dark Three manages to come back, and this lost deity causes trouble that Bane 1.0 could have handled, but Bane 2.0 can't (he doesn't know a key weakness, or the deity won't listen to Xvim because the deal was with Bane 1.0, etc).

And the 5E mess that has Bane as an avatar, for reasons -- maybe this avatar is Bane 1.0, and he's seriously not happy that Junior has taken over. As previously noted, this could be a fun mess, because Bane 1.0 would have to be careful not to weaken 2.0 too much, because that would make things harder for 1.0 once he resumed the top spot -- but of course he'd work very diligently towards deposing Junior and getting back in there.

So how could you use this in a way that would involve players? Oh, let me count the ways!

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Aug 2021 20:52:16
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