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PurpleYin
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 11:40:54
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Dear sages, are there any specific details to the planar range of Mystras Ban?
I understand it is broadly limited to realm space, but does it reach planes that are ever so close to the realms, like the ethereal? Or what of extra dimensional spaces? Does the inside of a bag of holding count as the realms? What about the interior space of a Rope Trick?
In planar terms do we know the exact bounds of the Weave?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 14:48:36
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Interesting question, but based on it I bet you already know the answer. No, we have no such guidance other than "its tied to realmspace". Which the idea of "realmspace" is even more nebulous now in 5th edition when there is no longer a crystal sphere but rather its literally "smooth sailing" from realmspace to the astral.... so as with all things "it's a DM's call".
I will also add here that even within "realmspace" its questionable just how far her control extends. By that I point out that technically by definition Abeir has the "same" sun and moon and it occupies the same space as Toril, yet she doesn't extend her control there. But, to my knowledge we've yet to get an answer for how exactly Abeir exists (example, it shares the same sun and moon, but can one travel to the same planets that you can from Toril if one had something that can traverse wildspace... are there different planets surrounding it?... is it the ONLY planet in phase with itself?). Is it a demiplane, an alternate prime, etc...
On extradimensional spaces in particular, I'm not even sure if we've ever had a good answer for what the heck that is. I mean can you create an extradimensional space in the outer planes, the inner planes, the astral plane, etc....? I know there are some planes that they intrinsically say that it won't work (which ones, offhand can't say). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Jul 2024 15:05:58 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2419 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 15:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by PurpleYin
Dear sages, are there any specific details to the planar range of Mystras Ban?
I understand it is broadly limited to realm space, but does it reach planes that are ever so close to the realms, like the ethereal?
Presumably her power extends to the "territory" covered by the Weave, plus her "home away from home" on the Outer Planes.
So the real question boils down to
quote:
In planar terms do we know the exact bounds of the Weave?
IIRC there was no clera definition given, but...
The most obvious common-sense answer is that layers of other planes intrinsically attached to the Realmspace continuum probably are considered part thereof in most regards that matter.
That is, the Border Ethereal of Realmspace would be included. Along with its Veil of Dreams, though why would the gods care much about things that happen in dreams, beyond their usual "dream phone" thing and a few oneiromantic spells (cast on relevant Prime or Border anyway)?
Deep Ethereal proper is "a little" too big for that. Also, it equally affects all worlds of Prime and the Inner planes, thus there would be enough of potential competition that the only stable outcome is for everyone who does not have this explicitly in the portfolio to agree on not messing with it.
Same goes for the Shadow fringe (as used in shadow travel within Realmspace) vs Deep Shadow proper.
quote:
Or what of extra dimensional spaces? Does the inside of a bag of holding count as the realms? What about the interior space of a Rope Trick?
A very good question.
If an EDS is even capable to support time flow, spellcasting is going to happen, and then from where the power comes?
By the way, Realms have (on the level of published Ed's Own canon) larger, permanent, definitely inhabitable and spellcasting enabled EDS: safeholds.
A more general question is: how they are related to the rest of planar mechanics as we know it? Are they an entirely unique thing?
EDS are not proper demiplanes, they are something less.
A possible answer is that EDS are effectively small layers of the plane where their primary interfaces lead. Generally a layer counts as "another plane" in some regards (e.g. being out of reach for most spells), but not others.
quote:
Safeholds have identical planar traits to the Material Plane (the Realms they connect with)
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from and to invisible links with the Material Plane that are places where the creator of the safehold has earlier cast particular spells ... invisible airflow portals the size of the stones come into existence elsewhere in Faerûn ... and they connect with the interior of the safehold. The wall of the safehold influences temperature and humidity in the safehold interior, creating convection currents and imbalances that encourage airflow. (A safehold created without airflow portals will soon twist out of shape, and ultimately collapse.)
- Safeholds (Part Two)
Spells are then cast on the wall (the "skin" or "sphere" of the extradimensional space) to give it specific temperature and humidity characteristics, to link it to Material Plane sources of fresh air, and to give it some measure of permanence and stability.
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In a safehold collapse, creatures and items inside the safehold are hurled out of its confines through one of its portals (the portals "suck" at the interior as they collapse, because they collapse out from the safehold to their "other end" destinations).
- Safeholds (Part Three)
supports these points.
I mean,
1. We know wizards can make demiplanes, those can be customized at creation, but have certain common properties (the mechanically described way is level 8 Demiplane Seed from The Planeswalkers Handbook and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, limitations: the result always has Border and environmental effects are equivalent of 3rd-level spells or less).
2. In Cormanthor High Magic is on the table, thus it's reasonable to assume limitations are property of the effect, rather than methods (specific spells).
3. Since the safeholds in general are more limited than demiplanes created by a specific spell (size and no intrinsic environmental effects) without any note of exception, they are something less versatile by their very nature.
4. We could expect contents of a dying demiplane to either spill at Ethereal or dissolve (turn to unstable forms of ether). Instead, "the only ways out are back to the originating Prime, no matter what" seems to be a hard rule here.
If we assume extradimensional spaces are "deeper" layers of Prime and safeholds are as good as extradimensional spaces can be practically made (again, because HM was available to some of their creators) "always the same Prime (with distinct Realmspace properties), but does not count as the same plane for most spells, and all external links are explicitly back to the original Prime" follows from this.
Edit: clarity... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 19 Jul 2024 19:50:16 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2419 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 17:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On extradimensional spaces in particular, I'm not even sure if we've ever had a good answer for what the heck that is. I mean can you create an extradimensional space in the outer planes, the inner planes, the astral plane, etc....? I know there are some planes that they intrinsically say that it won't work (which ones, offhand can't say).
IIRC of all the proper planes items and spells that operate extradimensional pockets don't work on Astral and in the Flow. That's it. Possibly also within an existing EDS (it’s not necessarily the same as trying to drag one active ED interface through another, which tend to have catastrophic results) and on some peculiar demiplanes. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 18 Jul 2024 17:50:20 |
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PurpleYin
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2024 : 14:06:56
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Thank you both so much for such speedy and comprehensive answers!
I'd suspected it was very much a grey area but AMD always so surprised at the depth of the lore that thought it was worth checking in case there was a nugget of canon anywhere!
I've been in the realms since 3.x and this is the first I've heard of strongholds! Thank you! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2024 : 18:53:52
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The Netheril box set described Mystryl's death from Netheril's typically self-centered perspective - any impact on the rest of the world and the rest of the cosmos was utterly ignored. So you can basically make any ruling you like. Remember that Mystra is a goddess of the Realms and has no power outside of the Realms - the gods and goddesses of magic on other worlds hold absolute dominion over magic on those worlds with or without a meddling Mystra's permissions - while Planescape lore pointedly notes that Mystra is just another goddess of just another mudball Prime (albeit one that's more impressive than most others), she has no great divine power outside of the world she's worshipped on and in the (not particularly large) planar realm which is her home.
The Time of Troubles - old Mystra died, new Mystra born - had significant impact on the Realms but seemingly was hardly even noticed by any worlds outside of the Realms.
4E's Spellplague claimed that the death of Mystra touched every world in the cosmos. Including Earth and other "low magic" or "no magic" places. If you accept then perhaps Mystra's Ban has nearly cosmic reach. On those worlds which have spells and spellcasters, at any rate, since it is basically meaningless if there's no magic and no spells for mortals to use. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11798 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 15:14:18
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| On the statement that "it touched everywhere" .... my preferred referee'ing of that is "it affected the portals attaching the realms to that place, possibly removing them, possibly shifting them elsewhere, and possibly shifting their connectivity to a different era of the realms timeline". Since we "know" that earth is connected via portals somewhere, that gives an out for how we may have "suddenly" been connected to the realms of 100 years later.... essentially making the change purely chronomantic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Jul 2024 16:38:06 |
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Planar range of Mystras Ban
