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 Wooly's thoughts on Bane 2.0 and Iyachtu Xvim

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Wooly Rupert Posted - 17 Aug 2021 : 03:06:51
I've shared my thoughts on Bane 2.0 and Iyachtu Xvim many times in the past, here.

However, I was recently given a couple more things to add to my list of reasons to speculate.

I've decided that instead of continuing to post and repost my thoughts, it would work better if I collected them all in one place.

And I've cleaned up the list a bit, too; it should be easier to read it all, now.
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
sleyvas Posted - 15 Jul 2024 : 18:14:51
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton

The Cyrinishad and The True Life of Cyric are two separate things.

One was the artifact (relic?) that caused all who read or heard its words to become a fanatical devotee of Cyric. The latter was penned by the same author, Rinda the Scribe to counter Cyricís plot to cause the people of Zhentil Keep from falling under the spell of the Cyrinishad.

Oghma had a hand in the writing of the latter, along with Fzoul and Mask.




ah, thank you for the clarification... 30 years or so dulls the memory. I so wish I had the time, the eyes, and the will to go back and reread so many of these novels.
nblanton Posted - 13 Jul 2024 : 00:02:47
The Cyrinishad and The True Life of Cyric are two separate things.

One was the artifact (relic?) that caused all who read or heard its words to become a fanatical devotee of Cyric. The latter was penned by the same author, Rinda the Scribe to counter Cyricís plot to cause the people of Zhentil Keep from falling under the spell of the Cyrinishad.

Oghma had a hand in the writing of the latter, along with Fzoul and Mask.
sleyvas Posted - 12 Jul 2024 : 22:33:53
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton

quote:
so... basically the idea behind the Cyrinishad may have occurred before.... interesting, especially if it keeps happening to the beings that hold the office of the Tyrant (which brings up the question of if Cyric read the Cyrinishad before or after Xvim was released).


Nothing to suggest it, but your comment did make me think about the coincidence of the events.

Perhaps Xvim is the actual father of Cyric. We know that he was in Zhentil Keep at some point prior to the Time of Troubles.

We really don't know what all is actually in The True Life of Cyric either, but it doesn't seem that this information (if it were true) would have been included. Then again, assuming Cyric's true mother is accurate to the story (a bard who ultimately fell upon hard times after being knocked up by a Zhentish soldier) perhaps Oghma decided it best to leave out that part. After all, one would expect that Cyric's mother would have been a petitioner of Oghma at that point having been a bard, and perhaps even Oghma would not prefer to have this part of Cyric's background validated. After all, we the audience simply assume that the The True Life of Cyric is accurate to its title.

And looking at the rest of the companions Cyric traveled with that achieved divinity, none had the rather impressive background that Cyric did. It seemed like he, unlike Kelemvor or Midnight had some level of power beyond what a simple mortal would.

Cyric's diminishing upon the reading of The True Life of Cyric by Fzoul could have been the spark that rejuvenated Xvim allowing him to reach out to his nascent cult to free him and achieve his full deification.



Actually, we DON'T assume that the True Life of Cyric (aka the Cyrinishad) is true. That was kind of the point, correct? It was a book that when read would make one believe the lies that it presented, making one believe Cyric was much more powerful than he was.

Taking this a step further, if Xvim became the next Tyrant... for all we know, Xvim himself was entrapped by a lie that he himself wasn't who he knew himself to be ... and thus the return of "Bane". But that's probably getting way out of hand.
nblanton Posted - 12 Jul 2024 : 17:56:57
quote:
so... basically the idea behind the Cyrinishad may have occurred before.... interesting, especially if it keeps happening to the beings that hold the office of the Tyrant (which brings up the question of if Cyric read the Cyrinishad before or after Xvim was released).


Nothing to suggest it, but your comment did make me think about the coincidence of the events.

Perhaps Xvim is the actual father of Cyric. We know that he was in Zhentil Keep at some point prior to the Time of Troubles.

We really don't know what all is actually in The True Life of Cyric either, but it doesn't seem that this information (if it were true) would have been included. Then again, assuming Cyric's true mother is accurate to the story (a bard who ultimately fell upon hard times after being knocked up by a Zhentish soldier) perhaps Oghma decided it best to leave out that part. After all, one would expect that Cyric's mother would have been a petitioner of Oghma at that point having been a bard, and perhaps even Oghma would not prefer to have this part of Cyric's background validated. After all, we the audience simply assume that the The True Life of Cyric is accurate to its title.

And looking at the rest of the companions Cyric traveled with that achieved divinity, none had the rather impressive background that Cyric did. It seemed like he, unlike Kelemvor or Midnight had some level of power beyond what a simple mortal would.

Cyric's diminishing upon the reading of The True Life of Cyric by Fzoul could have been the spark that rejuvenated Xvim allowing him to reach out to his nascent cult to free him and achieve his full deification.
LordofBones Posted - 08 Jul 2024 : 03:35:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's been at least one reference to Xvim's mom being a fallen paladin, and at least one reference to her being a fiend.

My spin is that his mom was a tiefling paladin who fell, and carrying Bane's child caused her to become a fiend.



Bane must have been a monster in the sack to turn a paladin into a succubus.
Wooly Rupert Posted - 08 Jul 2024 : 03:14:32
There's been at least one reference to Xvim's mom being a fallen paladin, and at least one reference to her being a fiend.

My spin is that his mom was a tiefling paladin who fell, and carrying Bane's child caused her to become a fiend.
sleyvas Posted - 04 Jul 2024 : 01:23:55
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Perhaps Bane doesn't even know his mortal history; maybe he thinks he knows it but it is mostly a fabrication.




so... basically the idea behind the Cyrinishad may have occurred before.... interesting, especially if it keeps happening to the beings that hold the office of the Tyrant (which brings up the question of if Cyric read the Cyrinishad before or after Xvim was released).
nblanton Posted - 30 Jun 2024 : 18:08:30
I suppose to bring this back to Xvim, do we think he may not actually be any true relation to Bane as I suggested? The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that Xvim is not actually a spawn of Bane.

I suppose there could even be a possibility that Bane and Xvim don't even fully recognize their own mortal past. We know that with many fiends that were promoted from mortals as well as the information we have about petitioners a lot of the memories of their mortal past fades completely. Perhaps the same occurred with whatever Jergal did when he "hid Bane away until promoting him". Perhaps Bane doesn't even know his mortal history; maybe he thinks he knows it but it is mostly a fabrication.

Xvim could have the same issues. Or perhaps Xvim is the spawn of Bane and was willing to accept his father's story so long as he was not in any position to usurp him. Basically, being the prince of tyranny was better than not, even if he would have preferred to be the king. Once he had the opportunity and the taste of true deific power, he likely no more wanted to relinquish it than any other deity.

Then he finds that he was being "used" by someone, perhaps it was just Bane 1.0 who was using Xvim as a horcrux, maybe Bane 2.0 was some other interloper deity that has just used Bane's previous power base and seized it, or even something else. Either way, we know that Xvim wasn't completely destroyed. He still exists at some level on the Prime inhabiting the minds of some. Possibly this state is similar to the existence that Tyranthraxus is in. However, this latent spirit retains what it learned as a lesser deity. One of the major things that Xvim now knows is that Bane isn't what he has always presented himself as.

Perhaps Xvim doesn't know the whole story but got enough of it to piece together what we've established so far. We've seen Xvim show up several times in random places throughout Faerun over the years. Westgate, Icewind Dale, Thay, underneath Zhentil Keep, etc. Perhaps part of his work even during this time was piecing together some of the inconsistencies of his father's past. Finding things that would diminish Lord Bane would definitely be the types of things that would be useful for such being who would want to usurp the throne. Or possibly given that we have also suggested that Xvim may be some sort of an aspect of Nergal and allied at least at one time with the proto-Bane who was a scion of Gilgeam, that Xvim was actually actively going around and planting "evidence" of events the Dead Three used as part of their mythology.

I would think the latter would almost make more interesting backstory for a campaign. Xvim knows where the heresies are located because he was the one that was planting them. Prior to the return of Bane, there was no real benefit of unmasking his "father's" true life as it would not have served his purpose. As for Bane, he gave this task to Xvim as he was able to be trusted with it as it was not something he would have wanted his clergy to know, although it would be suspected that some of the highest would have likely been suspicious.
LordofBones Posted - 29 Jun 2024 : 02:48:38
It's likelier that Gond began as a gnome god, an independent aspect of Nebelun, that achieved a spot in the greater Faerunian pantheon and separated himself from his progenitor. It explains why he's BFFs with the Lords of the Golden Hills.
nblanton Posted - 29 Jun 2024 : 02:34:13
Well, if this is the case let either Nergalís last diminished manifestation actually be Xvim. Heís not Baneís spawn, but his mentor.

Or maybe Xvim is one of Nergalís spawn that wasnít destroyed.

You also left out a fairly important one: Oghma. Also, while thereís no evidence, to me Gond is Hephaestus with the serial numbers filed off.
sleyvas Posted - 28 Jun 2024 : 20:37:22
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton


I have came around to the idea that both Myrkul and Bane were originally scions of deific manifestations of Mulhorandi in the case of Myrkul and specifically Gilgeam in the case of Bane. Which also sort of gets to the paranoia that Gilgeam develops towards having any offspring as noted in Powers & Pantheons.
  • This latter concept sort of feeds into why these three would have been tempting for Jergals use as well as why they followed no deities, as they were in effect quasi-deific by their very nature. [/*]




  • On this statement.... yep, over time, as I've looked at things... this piece makes a LOT of sense. It fits that the Millenium Dragon in Unther knows so much about how to kill Gilgeam using "the BaneSpear". It fits that Bane's largest temple in the world is RIGHT on the border of Unther in Mourktar in Threskel.

    If we also follow that Jergal and Nergal have SOME kind of link (I honestly can link a lot of the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities to the Netherese pantheon... as in perhaps they were making backup plans for how to stay alive in the world), then the fact that he starts helping these deities probably pisses off Gilgeam. For that matter... I keep returning to WHY did Gilgeam make Nergal's tomb outside of Unther after the orcgate war? It just now occcurs to me... what if Nergal didn't actually DIE... and so moving the tomb was to hide this fact. The story in Lost Empires of the Great Barrow leads one to believe that Gilgeam may have killed all of Nergal's offspring .... and maybe this was done to remove Nergal as a rival. It very much then makes sense if Nergal starts helping Gilgeam's son to position himself to overthrow Gilgeam and/or limit Gilgeam's ability to expand outside his pantheon.


    To note, regarding the idea that some of the mulan gods are in other pantheons under other names, my theories are roughly

    Ishtar supposedly left the world and "gave her powers to Isis". I propose that she went on the lamb in her manifestation form as the previously Prime Bound goddess of streams known as Eldath.

    Anshar the god of darkness left the pantheon and became SOME kind of tie to the goddess Shar (as in deeper story there)

    Re was expanding as well as Amon-Re while subsuming the goddess At'ar (Amon-Re'at'ar ..... Amaunator )

    Ki the nature goddess BECAME THE BODY FOR the prime bound goddess Mielikki. By that I note that prior to the ToT Mielikki was prime bound. So, perhaps she used the godflesh of Ki as a means to bring herself into realmspace.

    Inana BECAME THE BODY FOR Loviatar ... and at some point she managed to escape the prime, possibly through the help of Bane. So, perhaps she used the godflesh of Inana as a means to bring herself into realmspace. Mentioning this because of the story in complete book of Necromancers where Loviatar mirrors the story of Inana's descent into the Underworld looking for her sister. Noting that the "sister" of Inana is Ereshkigal.

    Note: I mention the prior two about Finnish deities as a means to explain away how they came to the world. I note that the city of Medinat Muskawoon in the Raurin Desert held a temple to the Finnish deity Untamo, Lord of Dreams, and I propose that perhaps the Imaskari portals allowed some others from the world of the mulan to come through. These people may have worshipped the Finnish gods. Perhaps Untamo allowed dreams to bring some of his fellow gods to the world, but they needed physical bodies.... so they used the godflesh stolen from some Untheric tombs. I imagine that something similar could be done with Kiputytto and Ereshkigal, using the idea that manifestation of Ereshkigal had fled to the isle of Safu (the isle of the Necromancer Kings) since there's a city there named Ereshkigal with a bunch of "mushroom shaped" iron towers.

    To note, this theory helps tie a bit of a bow around the 4 Finnish deities we know that are definitively linked to FR. To note, Medinat Muskawoon also had temples to Balder (Norse god of beauty, light, and rebirth), Dunatis (Celtic god of mountains), Tyche (greek goddess of luck that was split into Tymora/Beshaba), as well as a ruined temple to Ra, another to Horus, and one to Prometheus. If the "planar travelers" that bring over the Finnish worship bring over a mixed pantheon, some of these similar theories could be used for some of these deities as well (i.e. Prometheus god of fire using the godflesh of Girrue, god of fire... )


    LordofBones Posted - 28 Jun 2024 : 16:15:39
    Kiputtyo being Bane's ex was mentioned by Greenwood on his Discord.
    nblanton Posted - 28 Jun 2024 : 15:52:00
    quote:
    Originally posted by LordofBones

    Bane's ex was Kiputtyo. A succubus would be a massive improvement, but does everything really need to be a byzantine conspiracy by yet another demon lord?



    I sort of like this, however, I'm curious as to where you got the idea?If I were to have picked a "female" (using quotes as I really don't feel that deities have genders any more than fiends do beyond how they wish to represent themselves) I would have thought that Loviatar would have been the more likely candidate as she was said to have served pre-ToT Bane.

    Personally, I like Wooly's Bane 2.0 as I also liked Xvim, as well as the Xvimlar/Cyricist antagonism of late 2E FR.

    After getting those quotes from Ed back in March of '23, specifically the second one https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1179564803083395072.html, it seems to me that the bulk of what we "know" about the deities is propaganda at best and outright fabrication in many cases.

    Specifically, it appears that the "Knucklebones, Skull Bowling, and the Empty Throne" story we receive in Faiths & Avatars is effectively completely false. Sure, Jergal definitely conceded his portfolios to these three deities at some point after the fall of Netheril, but everything leading up to that doesn't seem like it actually occurred given Ed's answer.

    Where this I guess gets complicated is with the stuff that Eric Boyd has done with these stories (as well as other intriguing bits of one-off lore that was likely never intended to go anywhere like the association with Tyranthraxus with Bane from the Pool of Radiance SSI game) including all of this "history" we have of The Ride and Thar involving The Dead Three galivanting around as an evil aligned adventuring band slaying primordials prior to seeking out Jergal to seize his throne. Sure, there is an ancient menhir on an island of the coast of Sembia that has both Boram's heart and the Jathiman dagger in it that states that Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal did this, but did they? Was this really how it went down? Why would Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal bother to place a placard over this place, but to then simply abandon it in such a manner? They didn't appear to do anything similar with either Ironfang Keep or the Monument of the Ancients, both of which were likewise supposedly locations where the mortal Dead Three killed or incapacitated one or more of the Lost Gods. Was the Lake of Burning Mud even originally located near Mezeketh? It seems odd that no one remembers this as it should have been within the memory of some of the oldest living elves from Cormanthyr. Given the inconsistency of the mythology, I'm starting to think it is exactly that, a mythology. Perhaps one that had these artifacts planted to bolster the origin story of the Dead Three. Or perhaps it was Jergal that planted this stuff and the Dead Three were in some cases unaware of its existence.

    What I'm getting from the tweets as well as a somewhat objective look at all this is that:

    • Bane was likely a warrior of such hubris he would have been placed into everyone's favorite, the Wall of the Faithless, so no deity would have necessarily been expecting him as a petitioner (I'm sticking with 2E Planescape canon for this as well). I'll even go so far as to suggest that Jergal devised this specifically to justify him "keeping" these souls for his plans.
    • Myrkul's backstory feels like it is likely accurate, in that he was from the Old Empires, which makes me feel that proto-Bane was also from this region.
    • I have came around to the idea that both Myrkul and Bane were originally scions of deific manifestations of Mulhorandi in the case of Myrkul and specifically Gilgeam in the case of Bane. Which also sort of gets to the paranoia that Gilgeam develops towards having any offspring as noted in Powers & Pantheons.
    • This latter concept sort of feeds into why these three would have been tempting for Jergals use as well as why they followed no deities, as they were in effect quasi-deific by their very nature.


    Now to bring this back to Xvim (this would be in the not-Wooly's version, but the one that has been presented by WotC and Ed), given that he still exists at least some of his essence does apparently reside in the minds of some mortals within the Realms, and using this information that Ed gave us about knowledge of deific beginnings being obscured as well as useful when counter to prevalent thought, I could see this diminished Xvim using the "real story" as a method of diminishing Bane by revealing him not to be some all-powerful mortal that snatched power through his iron will from Jergal, but just a cast-off foreign interloper who was manipulated and placed into the position of power he ultimately achieved.

    I feel like the latter could be a fun B-story in a long-term campaign where the players find bits of the "true story of the Dead Three" artifacts. Which even in this case wouldn't be the real truth. Likely no one really knows save perhaps Jergal and the individual members of the Dead Three; they may not even truly know the background of the others, as they may have never worked together as mortals, it was simply a story of convivence for their ascension.
    LordofBones Posted - 27 Jun 2024 : 14:05:37
    Bane's ex was Kiputtyo. A succubus would be a massive improvement, but does everything really need to be a byzantine conspiracy by yet another demon lord?
    redking Posted - 27 Jun 2024 : 11:55:41
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    quote:
    Originally posted by ericlboyd

    Who is Xvim's mom? Inquiring minds want to know.



    My theory is that she was a tiefling paladin. She fell and turned to evil (perhaps because of Bane's influence), and it was sometime after that that she hooked up with Bane. Being pregnant with his child kicked her tiefling heritage into overdrive and she wound up becoming full-on fiend.

    At least, that's my spin, considering she's been referenced as both a paladin and some flavor of fiend.



    I guess that Xvim's mother is a succubus. Bane's fraternization with a succubus is perhaps not Bane's finest moment, especially as it resulted in the birth of the Godson. Of course, this was the likely the aim of the succubus in the the first place. There could be a deeper conspiracy here - perhaps a setup by Malcanthet or Graz'zt for their own nefarious goals.
    redking Posted - 30 Apr 2023 : 07:35:01
    Wooly Rupert's Xvim-Bane is my headcanon Bane. It just makes sense. Xvim had plenty of reasons to make the change, mainly that there there still lots of orthodox banites out there getting clerical powers from Cyric, and as Xvim, he could not gain their loyalty. After Bane's apparent death during the Time of Troubles, his church was left in disarray. This would have created an opportunity for Xvim to step in and consolidate power under the guise of Bane's return, which would be more readily accepted by the church's followers than a complete takeover by Xvim himself.

    Also, the story of divine resurrection is a powerful narrative, even it it's not true.
    Charles Phipps Posted - 21 Mar 2023 : 00:46:26
    Well, my opinion here would be HEAVILY INFLUENCED by Planescape that I've always viewed as the defacto "canon" way that gods work. It's absolutely NOT how gods are treated in the Forgotten Realms novels or how Ed Greenwood has created them but it provides a lot of interesting twists on it.

    Pro-Bane replaced Xvim

    1. I don't hate the idea that Bane had a master plan from the very beginning to use Xvim as his horocrux or phylactery. Bane isn't the kind of guy who would have children that he cared about and since Bhaal canonically saw his death coming in the Time of Troubles to make a bunch of Bhaalspawn, I don't see why Bane couldn't have done the same thing. That's an interesting take on Xvim and adds a tragedy to his character that all of his attempts to get out of his father's shadow was just playing right into his hands.

    2. In-universe, we know that the worship of Cyric and Xvim never really replaced Bane worship despite the fact he was dead. For whatever reason (Baneliches, Dead Priests) there's always been people continuing to worship the Dead Three. If a deity dies because of a lack of worshipers, surely continuing to worship a "god"

    3. Another interesting possibility is that Xvim planned to just impersonate his father but you can't DO THAT without consequence. Shar can get away with impersonating a minor cavern god because she's got a massive following of their own and the same for Lolth and Moander. However, if Xvim is PRIMARILY known as Bane then he'd slowly BECOME Bane. He may not be THE Bane but he might have become so simply by assuming his father's mantle and the worship of him changing his nature.

    "What can change the nature of a man?"

    "Belief."
    TBeholder Posted - 04 Mar 2023 : 12:01:09
    Bane lore from Ed (2019).
    Before/after ToT: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1179360141793206272.html
    Background: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1179564803083395072.html
    Background and Xvim: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1179837233454555139.html
    Kelcimer Posted - 03 Sep 2021 : 06:29:40
    Hello sleyvas!

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    See, you already lay out concepts for where this "scenario" can make an interesting form of play that's not just "And here's the big bad enemy... go kill it". I quickly get tired of games where all a DM does is shove a bad guy in front of me, because half the time I quickly figure out that he made it too powerful and behind the screen he is just fudging dice rolls. I consider that lazy DM'ing.



    I completely agree.
    bloodtide_the_red Posted - 03 Sep 2021 : 00:18:06
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    I would wonder, for those who think Bane 2.0 is Bane 1.0, what explanation they would offer for Bane 1.0 changing so many things to match Xvim? Not trying to argue; it's those changes that make me think Bane 2.0 is either some gestalt entity or Xvim faking it. If Bane 2.0 acted like Bane 1.0, I'd accept them as the same entity -- I'd've never considered any other options.



    For me it's a very sad case of Teal Life Writes the Game Reality. The whole Bane is gone and, oh, um, Bane is back makes no sense. Except in the real world .

    The corporate overlords forced the removal of the "bad" stuff and forced them to make it "not so bad lame kid stuff".

    The get people who are clueless about the Realms, or worse simply don't care about the Realms...or way worse HATE the Realms. That person or persons just do whatever they want, fueled by cluelessness and hate.

    And you get the mess of the Realms. And we see it n all franchises.

    So as much as I do LOVE the "oh page X of book X says X and that means it is 100% OFFICIAL REALMSLORE FOREVER, somethings like the Bane mess I just skip over.
    sleyvas Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 13:21:43
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kelcimer
    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    so knowing the truth [that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim] behind it becomes essential to eradicating the threat.



    Is it? Regardless of what the nature of the big bad is, it needs to be put down. That doesn't change what they players have to do.

    I just thought of how to improve your scenario and make it the truth that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim actually matter. So the players are trying to kill the big bad/sentient cloak/Gilgeam/Bane 1.0, but find that Priests of Bane 2.0 have the same goal as they do. And then have the Priests of Bane 1.0 help the players. They then start to realize they might just be helping out Bane. Do they want to be doing that? Then they somehow get the info that Gilgeam is Bane 1.0 and that Bane 2.0 is Xvim. Then they have a dilemma. Knowing the true nature of these guys, what do they do? Would they prefer an end game where Xvim is the god of tyranny or Bane 1.0. They then have an informed choice. If they prefer Xvim, then they are choosing to do away with Bane 1.0 and therefore strengthen Xvim. Is that something they want? Or if they back away from it and let Gilgeam continue, he'll give Xvim a lot of headache for a good time to come. Is it in the best interest of the Realms to have these gods focused on tearing each others churches apart? Under which option would more people die? It might be good in the short term for the region to kill Gilgeam, but what about the long term? As a DM I would be interested to see how the players handle that situation.




    See, you already lay out concepts for where this "scenario" can make an interesting form of play that's not just "And here's the big bad enemy... go kill it". I quickly get tired of games where all a DM does is shove a bad guy in front of me, because half the time I quickly figure out that he made it too powerful and behind the screen he is just fudging dice rolls. I consider that lazy DM'ing.

    Regarding your question back to me of "is it critical that the party know what's going on".... all I can say is you need to really look at this from an outsider's standpoint for just a minute. Not from the DM's viewpoint where you KNOW what's going on, but from the party that needs to figure out all these details and put them together in order to figure out HOW to combat the threat. In some ways, fighting this creature is like fighting a lich, except with a lich you know "it has a phylactery, and in this edition the phylactery needs to be nearby.... or in previous editions there also needed to be a body for the phylactery to inhabit". The players don't KNOW where things will go after they knock down this threat, but they might if they figure out the back story. Partly because I want to use the bad quote... but it's like GI JOE says... "Knowing is half the battle".


    On the "types" of gods that I laid out, if I dug, I could probably find more. However, those are all examples that exist in FR canonically. Manifestations are what the mulan gods were, but it may have also been what Torm, Mielikki and Eldath were prior to the time of troubles (I've also used the term, "prime-bound gods" for this as well). The intellect within an item can be seen with like the Crown of Horns holding Myrkul, but I'm sure I can find others (and arguably, some minor church artifacts from like Prayers of the Faithful may include some reduced sentience of a god). I didn't include the final "Kind", because I don't consider them "the gods"... but more like "chosen" .... incarnations... which are only found in Mulhorand.
    Wooly Rupert Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 11:10:38
    Moving the goalposts does not change the fact that I presented several ideas that could be developed into adventures. You asked how players could be involved in a thing where Bane was actually Xvim, and I gave you exactly that.
    Kelcimer Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 07:16:48
    Hello Wooly Rubert!

    You previously asked:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
    So how could you use this in a way that would involve players?



    And then affirmed:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
    Oh, let me count the ways!



    Just ratting off that there could be some conflicts is a far thing from relating those conflicts to an adventure that you would run players in. And what you described did not hinge upon the players finding out the knowledge that Bane 2.0 is Xvim, which is ket to my criteria.

    It seems as if you consider just inserting lore into a game just to insert lore into the game, tangentially related to the conflict in game is someone making said lore "something the players have to deal with". If so, then that's pretty weak.

    Now sleyvas took up the challenge, in good faith, and presented a scenario. [Hat tip to sleyvas] With his pleasant persistence in advocating for the scenario and adding clarity where I did not understand him, he ultimately persuaded that it could definitely fit my criteria of being "something the players have to deal with". (Being the last piece of information necessary for the players to make a fully informed choice about something with far reaching consequences definitely means the players have to deal with it.)

    You have not done this.

    Bragging that you can do a thing, but being bashful about actually doing said thing, is not persuasive.
    Wooly Rupert Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 05:00:34
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kelcimer


    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
    I also listed ways to do that.



    I don't think you have.




    If all the different potential conflicts I listed don't give you something that you can use to involve players, then I'm sorry, I can't help you.
    Kelcimer Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 04:42:55
    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    You may have a problem with it, but the references you refer to about only a god can kill a god are from 2e F&A (there may be some other sources), and there's plenty of other sources that indicate otherwise whenever you're dealing with a deity who is in physical form.



    I don't have a problem with it because of the lore. I am ambivalent about that bit of lore. If a mortal were to be in a position to kill a deity then they should get full credit for it, as it were. Good to know that that bit of lore has been retconned.

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    Also, just as with any other character who is powerful, "killing" them doesn't mean they can't come back again. It might just be stopping whatever their plans were for. As I've laid out, I view "gods" in multiple varieties... the non-physical, the "avatar" body that's entirely made of magic, the "manifestation" which is like an avatar but is unable to leave to the outer planes or create additional copies of itself, the "lesser avatar" which is when the life force of a god inhabits another being's body, and finally the "sentience left over in a magic item". In the idea I describe, this version of Bane would be advancing itself up that ladder. Eventually, if unchecked, he might be able to vie with Bane 2.0 for his old position (which might involve him for instance using his new empire to assault some bastion of Banite love like Zhentil Keep or Mulmaster).... or players may even aid him in this effort to oust Bane 2.0/Xvim (the reasoning behind this might be multiple... Xvim's/Bane 2.0's clergy might be doing something the players need to stop, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc...).

    Or in short... I can keep laying out ideas, but it is like Wooly said, there's a lot of ways you can do this.



    You lay out a far more textured view of gods in a succinct manner then I have heard of before. Eh? Okay sure. If it is articulated in the adventure that he's not an actual god, but has the capacity to fast track back to being a god, then okay, that's an adventure that has proper scale.

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    so knowing the truth [that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim] behind it becomes essential to eradicating the threat.



    Is it? Regardless of what the nature of the big bad is, it needs to be put down. That doesn't change what they players have to do.

    I just thought of how to improve your scenario and make it the truth that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim actually matter. So the players are trying to kill the big bad/sentient cloak/Gilgeam/Bane 1.0, but find that Priests of Bane 2.0 have the same goal as they do. And then have the Priests of Bane 1.0 help the players. They then start to realize they might just be helping out Bane. Do they want to be doing that? Then they somehow get the info that Gilgeam is Bane 1.0 and that Bane 2.0 is Xvim. Then they have a dilemma. Knowing the true nature of these guys, what do they do? Would they prefer an end game where Xvim is the god of tyranny or Bane 1.0. They then have an informed choice. If they prefer Xvim, then they are choosing to do away with Bane 1.0 and therefore strengthen Xvim. Is that something they want? Or if they back away from it and let Gilgeam continue, he'll give Xvim a lot of headache for a good time to come. Is it in the best interest of the Realms to have these gods focused on tearing each others churches apart? Under which option would more people die? It might be good in the short term for the region to kill Gilgeam, but what about the long term? As a DM I would be interested to see how the players handle that situation.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
    I also listed ways to do that.



    I don't think you have.
    sleyvas Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 18:33:11
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kelcimer

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    So, a party of high level characters could challenge such an entity



    I kinda have a problem with that. One of the things that I like to do is not sell something short. If a being is a god, then they are a god. Here's how it feels to me: "Well, it's not really a FULL god. It's mostly a god. Okay. A part of a god. Really just a piece. And not important enough for other gods to make sure it was ended permanently." At that point the players aren't fighting a God anymore, just a leftover.

    BTW I am generally aware that the lore says only a god can kill a god. (At least that was what was in the source books I read.) I don't really have an opinion on this lore as such. Just bringing it up to better understand your interpretation. Because if you accept it, then if the players can kill the thing, then it isn't really a god, its just a leftover. Or is it really a god and you are disregarding that lore. Which is cool if you are. Just wondering which way you go on that.

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    Also, you're going way too big with "waging war on Faerun". I'm talking gathering and solidifying a piece of ground... "Returned Unther"...



    I am sorry, I was unclear. I did not mean to imply waging war on ALL of Faerun. I understood you were keeping the conquests to a confined area. That's confined area is still part of Faerun and so that is why I consider it "waging war on Faerun". Does that make sense?

    Anyway, I think we have drifted away from the point that stumps me. How would you bring the detail that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with? Yes, you have outlined a way to have a divine being being the big bad in a high level game. But how does that detail come into play?

    And Wooly Rupert said he could count the ways to do that.



    You may have a problem with it, but the references you refer to about only a god can kill a god are from 2e F&A (there may be some other sources), and there's plenty of other sources that indicate otherwise whenever you're dealing with a deity who is in physical form. Also, just as with any other character who is powerful, "killing" them doesn't mean they can't come back again. It might just be stopping whatever their plans were for. As I've laid out, I view "gods" in multiple varieties... the non-physical, the "avatar" body that's entirely made of magic, the "manifestation" which is like an avatar but is unable to leave to the outer planes or create additional copies of itself, the "lesser avatar" which is when the life force of a god inhabits another being's body, and finally the "sentience left over in a magic item". In the idea I describe, this version of Bane would be advancing itself up that ladder. Eventually, if unchecked, he might be able to vie with Bane 2.0 for his old position (which might involve him for instance using his new empire to assault some bastion of Banite love like Zhentil Keep or Mulmaster).... or players may even aid him in this effort to oust Bane 2.0/Xvim (the reasoning behind this might be multiple... Xvim's/Bane 2.0's clergy might be doing something the players need to stop, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc...).

    Or in short... I can keep laying out ideas, but it is like Wooly said, there's a lot of ways you can do this.
    sleyvas Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 18:08:44
    quote:
    Originally posted by Zeromaru X

    Yeah, Alasklerbanbastos requieres the corpse of another blue dragon to revive. He is prepped, however. In the novels, is mentioned he has many corpses ready in his cave for the eventuality. He lost his most powerful body (at the time) at the Battle of Lutqcheq, but I guess he must have had at least one or two fearsome corpses out there, just in case.

    And yeah, Aoth and Cera Eurtos got a hold of his phylactery, for a time. They lost it when they fought the fake Alasklerbanbastos in AkanŻl, and Alasklerbanbastos recovered it and used it to transfer himself to his "most powerful body" (the one destroyed later).

    AS for Tchazzar, well, there are like 8-10 years between his death and his rebirth, so, I guess his cult or Tiamat's could have resurrected him. Heck, even Tiamat herself may have done it, if she thought Tchazzar would be necessary again. I also think he should be diminished, somehow. Perhaps he is still mad, or curing his madness cost some of his powers. Or perhaps this is not THE Tchazzar we know...



    See... THIS is why I like passing ideas back and forth on these forums.... yeah... what did happen to Tchazzar's body when he "died". I had been talking about the "godflesh" of manifestations like Gilgeam, and the idea that this "fleshy" form might be somehow different from normal mortal bodies. Tchazzar in some ways might be considered a kind of lesser "godflesh" as well that gets left behind.... we know that the Millenium dragon is in a body that's so decayed it can't even leave its lair, but it can act remotely through a "magical body" of sorts. What if this dragon ascendant finally gave up his failing body after returning from Abeir, and he inhabits Tchazzar? He's a good bit different in personality (more conniving/patient, more of an information gatherer, etc...) and he apparently doesn't like Gilgeam. Could be a good story.
    Wooly Rupert Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 10:41:53
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kelcimer


    Anyway, I think we have drifted away from the point that stumps me. How would you bring the detail that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with? Yes, you have outlined a way to have a divine being being the big bad in a high level game. But how does that detail come into play?

    And Wooly Rupert said he could count the ways to do that.



    I also listed ways to do that.
    Kelcimer Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 06:07:43
    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    So, a party of high level characters could challenge such an entity



    I kinda have a problem with that. One of the things that I like to do is not sell something short. If a being is a god, then they are a god. Here's how it feels to me: "Well, it's not really a FULL god. It's mostly a god. Okay. A part of a god. Really just a piece. And not important enough for other gods to make sure it was ended permanently." At that point the players aren't fighting a God anymore, just a leftover.

    BTW I am generally aware that the lore says only a god can kill a god. (At least that was what was in the source books I read.) I don't really have an opinion on this lore as such. Just bringing it up to better understand your interpretation. Because if you accept it, then if the players can kill the thing, then it isn't really a god, its just a leftover. Or is it really a god and you are disregarding that lore. Which is cool if you are. Just wondering which way you go on that.

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas
    Also, you're going way too big with "waging war on Faerun". I'm talking gathering and solidifying a piece of ground... "Returned Unther"...



    I am sorry, I was unclear. I did not mean to imply waging war on ALL of Faerun. I understood you were keeping the conquests to a confined area. That's confined area is still part of Faerun and so that is why I consider it "waging war on Faerun". Does that make sense?

    Anyway, I think we have drifted away from the point that stumps me. How would you bring the detail that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with? Yes, you have outlined a way to have a divine being being the big bad in a high level game. But how does that detail come into play?

    And Wooly Rupert said he could count the ways to do that.
    Zeromaru X Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 01:43:04
    Yeah, Alasklerbanbastos requieres the corpse of another blue dragon to revive. He is prepped, however. In the novels, is mentioned he has many corpses ready in his cave for the eventuality. He lost his most powerful body (at the time) at the Battle of Lutqcheq, but I guess he must have had at least one or two fearsome corpses out there, just in case.

    And yeah, Aoth and Cera Eurtos got a hold of his phylactery, for a time. They lost it when they fought the fake Alasklerbanbastos in AkanŻl, and Alasklerbanbastos recovered it and used it to transfer himself to his "most powerful body" (the one destroyed later).

    AS for Tchazzar, well, there are like 8-10 years between his death and his rebirth, so, I guess his cult or Tiamat's could have resurrected him. Heck, even Tiamat herself may have done it, if she thought Tchazzar would be necessary again. I also think he should be diminished, somehow. Perhaps he is still mad, or curing his madness cost some of his powers. Or perhaps this is not THE Tchazzar we know...

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