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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2024 : 14:13:57
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So, after some recent discussions, my mind has returned to the Raurin desert and the shoehorning of desert of desolation into the realms.
I remembered the name of the gem "Star of Melos-Pelar" and I started wondering.... who or what is Melos-Pelar? So, I went off on a bit of a googling, and realized that there were multiple "Pelar" named gems that Martek used in that module. Link below gives some good info from the FR Wiki
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Star_gem_of_Martek
So, my first thoughts after reading this is that "Pelar" might be some kind of primordial, and these gems were part of its body. Another could be that "Pelar" was some deity (such as the hawaiian goddess Pele, goddess of volcanoes and fire and creator of land/islands). Sounds "kewl" .... might be more powerful than we need though?
My second thoughts are that "Pelar" might have been a realm, and these gems were its royal jewels. That's less fun at first, but much more believable. It could easily be a ruined realm of say Imaskar or the sarrukh or batrachi, or some other group entirely (giants, dragons, etc...).
One option that appears in my mind is that Pelar is a shortening/corruption of Pelevar (as in the Shaaran realm of Peleveran that was destroyed when Gargauth was freed). May or may not be a good idea, but its my first thought.
If it was a realm, then what's up with the 5 different names (i.e. Mo-Pelar, Aga-Pelar, Khan-Pelar, Shah-Pelar, and Melos-Pelar)? Are these the names of different rulers (i.e. Mo, Aga, Khan, Shah, and Melos)? Are these the names of different cities in the realm? Is there some other explanation?
Any other bents that people might have in mind?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Jul 2024 14:47:48
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2024 : 05:28:57
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The dates for the DoD series talk about "a thousand years ago" etc, noting Imaskar fell in -2488 DR, a long time before that. I think Pelar was the term for the Raurin region after -1500 DR when GHotR (p.36) tells us that Mulhorand expanded into these regions. It's likely that Mulhorand set up a vassal kingdom here and that it fell apart after the Orcgate Wars.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Jul 2024 05:29:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2024 : 22:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The dates for the DoD series talk about "a thousand years ago" etc, noting Imaskar fell in -2488 DR, a long time before that. I think Pelar was the term for the Raurin region after -1500 DR when GHotR (p.36) tells us that Mulhorand expanded into these regions. It's likely that Mulhorand set up a vassal kingdom here and that it fell apart after the Orcgate Wars.
-- George Krashos
I'm inclined towards this explanation. I also just found something that make me know with certainty more of what "Pelar" is about. We at some point meet the ghost of Amun-Re and he says
I am Amun-Re, son of Takosh-Re of the House of Mo-Pelar.
So, it is something of a family name, much like the incarnations and priests of Horus-Re in Mulhorand is the House of Helcaliant.
Since we know that multiple incarnations of a deity could exist (we're told at one point that "all the incarnations of Horus-Re are killed" during the Thayan uprising), maybe there was an expansion of active incarnations. By that I mean something like "the incarnation of Re that rules in Mulhorand" and "the incarnation of Re that rules in Pelar". Each incarnation would of course be the mouthpiece for the manifestation that they rule in name for, handling the day to day administration.
If this were the case.... then each of these might correspond to an incarnation family similar to Mulhorand.
something like
Mo-Pelar - maybe Re's bloodline since Amun-Re's family held it, and it works for a plotline. My other thought was Osiris's bloodline, only because Amun-Re was fixated upon death and called down a curse in Osiris' name that ended up stopping the flow of the River Athis (he was facing a civil uprising and said if his heart should stop, so show the flow of a magical healing river granted by the power of Isis). Gem was a fist-sized opal.
Aga-Pelar - Maybe Re's bloodline, and when Re died the gem turned black. Gem was a huge midnight black star sapphire with an inner asterism of pure white.... and the gem was used to entrap an efreeti noble, so fits that it might be related to a sun god. Could also be Seker's bloodline, as Seker is mentioned in Desert of Desolation, and Seker could be a Mulan deity who chose to not serve under Re.
Khan-Pelar - Osiris.. Anhur... Geb... or even a female god like Isis/Nepthys/Hathor/Bast.. all would work. Gem was an enormous clear crystal, but it was placed by Martek the archmage in a hidden temple of Set beneath the Oasis of the White Palm
Shah-Pelar - Maybe Set as this belonged to a "Desert Pharaoh" and was then stolen by a bandit. Gem was a huge faceted ruby.
Melos-Pelar - Thoth's bloodline (Gem was egg shaped, deep purple amethyst, and the one favored to the archmage Martek)
From the DoD module, we have it that Amun-Re was a "godking" with an active priesthood, and that upon his deaths his priests are buried with him. The buried "godking" is then expected to ascend to godhood. This is a slightly different take on Mulhorand's ideas of the godkings ruling as the mouthpieces, but not themselves being the gods. What if this is because Amun-Re got it in his head that he could somehow use HIS BODY to let Re come back to the world (ala a new manifestation). So, while the Mulhorandi had just accepted Horus as the new "Re" .... maybe the rulers of Pelar did not .... maybe even because Set was whispering in their ears through advisors to do things that would essentially turn on them.
Specifically, the adventure says
The Pyramid and the Temple
The tombs of the pharaohs were not just burial grounds. They were complex religious places that were used to change the dead pharaohs into gods. Temples such as this one were used in the sacred processes that readied the pharaohs for their trips to heaven and the next world.
and
Halls of the Upper Priesthood
This level was to be the final residence of Amun-Re's Higher Priests. These priests were to be sealed into the pyramid after bringing Amun-Re to his final resting place. The priests would then live out the remainder of their lives in these halls.
Further, in the adventure, there's the "Book of Amun-Re" and it talks about his belief that he would travel "the river of death" to "Heaven Westward" in a boat to be judged by Osiris, and that his father was supposed to do similar, but grave robbers had stolen his offerings and destroyed his chances.
We then further find that Amun-Re died, his "High Priest" was effectively a mage named Munafik who used necromancy to remove his heart from his body to become immortal, and who turned Amun-Re into a mummy. We also have some hints that Munafik had planned on betraying Amun-Re all along, stealing his immortality somehow, and may himself be responsible for the curse on the River Athis. We also discover that there is in fact a burial boat with the Star Gem of Mo-Pelar on it, and this boat flies and is 2 miles above the pyramid and reachable via a magic painting.
So, what if the true story of what happened is that Munafik the necromancer was a servant of Set. Munafik stole the immortality of Amun-Re and turned him into a mummy. Munafik cursed the magic water of Isis flowing from the temple that formed the River Athis. Amun-Re had a flying ship which was meant to carry his "empty but divine flesh" to "Heaven Westward"... which may be in the Teyla Shan or Godswatch Mountains... where Amun-Re BELIEVED that his body could become the vessel for Re to return to the realms.
This might have become a prevalent thing. I know that there's an idea that Myrkul was a Prince of Murghom for instance. We've had some discussion that Bane might be a child of Gilgeam. These incarnations may have got it in their heads that they could become gods themselves because they were divine of body after some ritual (such as
imbibing the Khaledshran elixir of Immortality given to incarnations of Horus composed of some of Re's blood that you created
in the Tyrants in Scarlet, Zulkirs of Thay document). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 02:30:40
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| The Star Gem of Mo-Pelar sounds to me like some ur-Spelljamming helm or even a more powerful talisman of the spheres that were used by the reigar to bypass the phlogiston as their esthetic “ships” couldn’t enter it. Maybe Ptah had to get a reigar device to assist the manifestations travel to Realmspace as even though they were physical manifestations, they were too tied to the outer planes to enter The Flow. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 23:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
The Star Gem of Mo-Pelar sounds to me like some ur-Spelljamming helm or even a more powerful talisman of the spheres that were used by the reigar to bypass the phlogiston as their esthetic “ships” couldn’t enter it. Maybe Ptah had to get a reigar device to assist the manifestations travel to Realmspace as even though they were physical manifestations, they were too tied to the outer planes to enter The Flow.
Hmmmm, I could buy that since it was attached to a ship that was meant to carry the "godking" bodily to "heaven westward".... I had been kind of picturing it bringing them back somewhere where the body could be "used"/"filled" with a divine manifestation and then "shipped back" to Toril. Actually since they were said to follow the "river of death".... what if instead of the Phlogiston they used the shadowfell to travel to the divine domain of the Mulhorandi Gods (Heliopolis), and once there the spirit is allowed to dwell based on its offerings.
Alternatively... instead of the shadowfell, perhaps the plane of radiance as the path back to Heliopolis. Since the Stars on Toril's Crystal Sphere were not STARS... but portals to the plane of radiance. Normally, a vessel and anything on it entering one of these portals, upon reaching the other side, is utterly destroyed... but perhaps these star gems are the key to successfully passing through.
We might even tie the divine artifact from Pirates of the Fallen Stars (known as the Beacon of Light on pg 65-66) that is considered a divine artifact of Anhur and valued by the entire Mulhorandi Pantheon. It is also found in VGtatM page 95 where it specifically says that Ptah used the Beacon of Light aboard the Matet (the great boat of the Sun) to steer through the "dark depths of space".
So, these various "Star Gems" might be something akin to helms that are maybe specific to each god... and thus the mention of the House of Mo-Pelar.... and maybe they help guide a ship to the specific house of the deity in question in Heliopolis ... but maybe the godkings didn't realize they needed to be used along with the Beacon of Light to traverse the Plane of Radiance safely. I very much like the idea of the mortals not truly understanding "how it works". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 22:13:39
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| I had always assumed that Ptah had used wildspace as the vector as he was the only deity that is considered a "space god." |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2024 : 15:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
I had always assumed that Ptah had used wildspace as the vector as he was the only deity that is considered a "space god."
Yep, I see wildspace as the "endpoint" and Heliopolis as the other "endpoint". From wildspace they then flew into Toril's atmosphere and landed at the Teyla Shan mountains. The question is what was the conduit between them. Most spelljamming is between Crystal spheres by the phlogiston, but it would actually make more sense if they're coming from an outer plane to use a different intermediary.
The obvious path would be the astral, and that fits with Anubis helping..... but I'm betting that that's exactly what the Imaskari Godwall was blocking.
Since 4e lore states that all souls pass through the shadowfell to the outer planes... its got to be a valid path (which is kind of odd if its technically an inner plane.... makes me think that the sages that know don't know). Radiance also makes since in a similar way if one to say that "outer planes that have shadows have links to the shadowfell" then correspondingly "outer planes with a source of radiance have links to the plane of radiance".
In some ways, it could make a lot of sense if they came From Heliopolis to realmspace via radiance as the intermediary, but they "return" via the "river of death" using the shadowfell. I think this even matches to Egyptian lore where they sail in the light during the day, but then at night they must defend their ship from Apophis/Apep (the serpent of the night). In this instance, the manifestations just travelled TO Toril/realmspace via radiance and never left unless they died. The Untheric gods may have used another intermediary path entirely.
This even matches up with the canon lore that there are "celestial stairways" that are rainbows that you walk up to the outer planes (much like the bifrost mind you). So, the exits might have been "celestial stairways" extending out from the stars on the crystal sphere that are portals to the plane of radiance.
Dragon 321 article on Plane of Radiance even has a rainbow bridge that crosses the plane, starting at a waterfall on "the isle of Prisme" that pours from a gigantic crystal prism (and where this waterfall hits the rainbow bridge can be a portal to anywhere in the multiverse - even to other times).
Hmmmm, and I'm inclined to wonder... Pelar .... Pelor, Greyhawk sun deity.... if these star gems do link to the plane of radiance, might they have had some involvement with that deity (I know we can already see similarities between Pelor and a Re and/or Seker. Betting that the original desert of desolation which was in Greyhawk was making ties to Pelor, and the naming didn't shift when it got shoved into the realms. But, hey, take an idea and shift it... maybe the Pharaonic gods made a "trade" of sorts with Pelor for these gems, and so the gems were still named for Pelor. Maybe they were mined from some mines held by Pelor's servants within the plane of radiance, and said mines are on something like "Pelar Island". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Jul 2024 16:30:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2024 : 19:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
I had always assumed that Ptah had used wildspace as the vector as he was the only deity that is considered a "space god."
Ptah is not a "space god" as much as Ptah is an "everywhere god".
There is no place in the universe that Ptah cannot go, that Ptah's power cannot reach. Aside from the domains of other deities and powers, lol.
I thought Ptah was imported to the Realms along with the rest of the Mulhorandi pantheon? |
[/Ayrik] |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2024 : 21:26:56
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| First, Ptah just as any other deity cannot enter the Flow. Second, Ptah did not become part of the Mulhorandi pantheon. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2024 : 21:26:57
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So.... just to kind of summarize thoughts here, since I know we were throwing out a lot of things. Here's what I see as what I'd say is the current path for what to do with this.
From Heliopolis, the Mulhorandi gods created manifestations and used the Matet to sail up the River Isis. Using the beacon of light, they sailed through to the Rainbow Bridge on the Plane of Radiance. From the Plane of Radiance, they exited into wildspace via a "celestial stairway" and flew to the Teyla Shan mountains.
Possibly there were star gems corresponding to each "color" of the Rainbow Bridge, or possibly one to each manifestation. Each Star Gem that we know of was associated to some familial lineage in the later formed kingdom of Bakar. The people of Bakar worshipped not only the gods of the Mulhorandi pantheon, but also gods from numerous other pantheons (greek, norse, celtic, etc...). However, it would appear that they were RULED by God kings who believed that after their deaths, they would use boats powered by the star gems to send their bodies back to Heliopolis. Their bodies may then be returned to the world as gods (i.e. so they hoped maybe that their bodies might become new manifestations, possibly for gods that fell during the war with Imaskar.... or possibly for gods that fell during the orcgate war). Just because they believed this did not necessarily make it true mind you, and possibly the current Torilian manifestations either didn't even realize there was a misunderstanding OR they had other intentions for the returned "special" bodies. For that matter, even the godly manifestations, since they were separated from their outer planar selves, may not have truly understood whether this plan would work, and perhaps they were allowing it as an experiment to see if they could get Re to return to the world.
Bakar being able to exist was founded on the fact that the River Athis, healing waters blessed by Isis, poured from the central pyramid in the city of Terbakar and provided life in the wastelands of Raurin. This river was stopped when a god-king, Amun-Re, cursed it because his people rose up and killed him over taxes meant to enhance his pyramid so that he would be worthy to return from the dead as a god. Amun-Re's curse called upon the power of Osiris, his Staff of Ruling, and the Star of Mo-Pelar, and it just broke the "portaling" of the water from one part of the pyramid to another. It is possible that this god king was confused by his "High Priest", an arcane spellcaster who later turned himself undead, who himself may have been a servant of Set focused on expanding Set's power in the region. Amun-Re may have believed that his body could restore Re, but he may have been absolutely wrong.
SIDENOTE: since the water heals within the pyramid, it might be interesting if its a conduit to the River Isis on Heliopolis that loses its magical nature after passing through the portal. I believe in canon this river gets fixed per the end of the module. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Italian Archmage Karsus
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2024 : 20:24:18
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Bit of background, perhaps meaningless...
In I3 Pharaoh, the Gem of Mo-Pelar was a gem of true seeing. I4 Oasis of the White Palm includes two more gems, the gem of Shah-Pelar and the gem of Khan-Pelar, which turn up in I5 Lost Tomb of Martek. Shah-Pelar's gem had the power of casting Cure Moderate Wounds 3/day. The star of Khan-Pelar allowed a mage to regain 1 spell level's worth of memorized magic per turn of remaining still.
The gem of Aga-Pelar, and the gem of Melos-Pelar, are added in Desert of Desolation, they do not boast new powers- save in the Spellfire Master the Magic game, which are too abstract for me to get anything. The Gem of Aga-Pelar is part of Khalitarius' prison in Eilish, and Melos-Pelar is hidden in Medinat Muskawoon.
All 3 or 5 gems are required to access the Grand Hall in the Lost Tomb of Martek. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2024 : 16:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Italian Archmage Karsus
Bit of background, perhaps meaningless...
In I3 Pharaoh, the Gem of Mo-Pelar was a gem of true seeing. I4 Oasis of the White Palm includes two more gems, the gem of Shah-Pelar and the gem of Khan-Pelar, which turn up in I5 Lost Tomb of Martek. Shah-Pelar's gem had the power of casting Cure Moderate Wounds 3/day. The star of Khan-Pelar allowed a mage to regain 1 spell level's worth of memorized magic per turn of remaining still.
The gem of Aga-Pelar, and the gem of Melos-Pelar, are added in Desert of Desolation, they do not boast new powers- save in the Spellfire Master the Magic game, which are too abstract for me to get anything. The Gem of Aga-Pelar is part of Khalitarius' prison in Eilish, and Melos-Pelar is hidden in Medinat Muskawoon.
All 3 or 5 gems are required to access the Grand Hall in the Lost Tomb of Martek.
Yeah, more and more leaning towards these being minor divine artifacts that were later used as royal jewels.... and I'm inclined towards the idea that each jewel is said to be a certain type (ruby, etc...)... but that the given information is maybe wrong (just like how some of the crown jewels of England were mis-typed) and picked solely based on color...
I also think it might be interesting if we find out that there's one that is the link to the River Isis/River Athis and basically acting as a portal between them. This may have helped them "sail" onto the rainbow bridge via the waterfall at Prisme in the Plane of Radiance.
I'm also inclined that these jewels were essential to SAFELY traversing the plane of radiance via the rainbow bridge... maybe working in concert, and maybe their special abilities helped with this (i.e. true seeing helped the person pilot through a plane of blinding brilliance, maybe healing protected them from the energies there, maybe the one that renewed spells allowed one to pilot the helm without losing their spellcasting, etc...). This should only be known to the manifestations themselves, and possibly only certain of them even (i.e. maybe Thoth knew, probably Re, Isis, etc... ). Maybe the manifestations purposely separated them up after landing for the same reasons that some explorers centuries ago burned their own boats after landing in the Americas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Pelar and the Star Gems of Martek
