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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  03:21:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Fair enough. I'll log it into the annuls.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  03:32:47  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While it is possible to add a basket of apples with a basket of oranges, you will still have apples and oranges.

Conflating two statistics together to support what would amount to genocide is not the same as simply saying two things are equally well known...not equal.

Willing something to be what we want is not the same as something being what it actually is.

NOTE: Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, opinions, etc., into one, often in error.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 27 Oct 2020 03:45:04
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  04:02:12  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

Thank you for your reply! I'm interested in the discussion with you, but I feel at the moment this is probably not the right scroll for it. I'd be happy to address your point further in the original scroll if you like? If not, I'll assume your point was meant to be rhetorical and agree to disagree with it here.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  16:07:39  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are correct, I was making a statement and am not interested in "debating" a topic that you are adamant concerning and unwilling to be swayed from.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  18:30:59  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

quote:
You are correct, I was making a statement and am not interested in "debating" a topic that you are adamant concerning and unwilling to be swayed from.


Thank you for your clarity about your statement; however, your presupposition that I am
quote:
...adamant concerning and unwilling to be swayed from.
, appears to be predicated upon the notion that I have yet to accept a conclusion presented so far, and therefore, I am "adamant" and "unwilling." If I am wrong, please do correct me; however, the implied nature of your statement appears to aimed at making that case.

Though, nothing could be further from the truth. I have said on many occasions in arguments I've presented that I am very willing to change my view on any issue. I feel what is leading to the belief that I am "adamant" and "unwilling" is the different argumentative positions people are using, both in style and ethic. My ethical approach (read ethical as in, the study of ethics, and an ethic I utilize to inform my decisions, actions, choices, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics {sorry to use Wikipedia, but it is easier than the alternative}) and reasoning is likely different than others who have argued from what I feel is a different position. To be clear, that is not to imply better, but rather, to acknowledge that people argue differently, with a great variance in how they do so. It's an acceptance, not a judgement.

It's why for example you often see a fundamental disagreement between atheists and devoutly religious folk: my experience is that most atheists evaluate their actions and beliefs through a secular morality ethic, whereas religious folk, of course, subscribe to a process that they evaluate their actions and beliefs through divine command theory.

So, to be very clear here: just because I have not accepted a critique of my argument as presented as a valid counter, doesn't preclude my willingness to change my outlook. It just means I have yet to have an argument that is persuasive.

Based on my declaration, I am very willing to discuss this further in the other scroll and change my view on anything related to the topic at hand, as long as the argument being presented is well reasoned and laid upon the basic rules of argument.

Best regards as always,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  19:16:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For there even to be a discussion, you would have to find support for your argument...which you have not. You have only conflated two things together which are not equal. Two things being equally well known does not mean that they result in the same thing.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  22:23:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

With all due respect to your intentions, I believe there may be some misunderstandings on some finer details about my argument. However, I need to address an elephant in the room.

Your comment on 27 Oct 20 @ 03:32:47 of,
quote:
Conflating two statistics together to support what would amount to genocide is not the same as simply saying two things are equally well known...not equal. Willing something to be what we want is not the same as something being what it actually is. NOTE: Conflation is the merging of two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, opinions, etc., into one, often in error.
, doesn't identify the "two statistics" you are referencing.

The "statistics" (I have presented statistics as well as data) I presented include the following:

  • In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years. (Vilhon Reach, pg.4)
  • In 1372, the Vilhon Reach had a population of approximately 5,705,840 (humans 95%, dwarves 2%, elves 1%, lizard-folk 1%).
  • Let's just for arguments sakes reduce that by 75% to 1,426,420.
  • Now, that is of course silly to do so, but let's see what 50% of that is...oh my, it appears to be 713,230.
  • Being generous I reduced that to an absurdly low number whereas the high value would be 2,852,920
  • So, the Emerald Enclaves violence is so legendary and ruthless that it is stated to be on par with a death toll of between 713k to 2.8 million?


Of those (6) forms of statistics/data, which "two statistics" are you referring?

As to your assertion that conflation is occurring, I argue that I am doing what people do when they don't have 100% data to confirm something: they use explanatory induction. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321596989_Abduction_and_Induction_Essays_on_their_Relation_and_Integration

There is nothing wrong with using inductive reasoning to determine outcomes when deductive analysis is not feasible. Deductive analysis is not feasible here, so this logical tool is being used instead.

Additionally, I've seen nothing to indicate that the argument is being taken into account in its entirely, which argumentatively is a contextual issue from the onset. I've seen nothing to demonstrate that the entire, and original, argument found at http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=controversy has been understood. As I made a point regarding Ed's "So Saith Ed, Jul - Sep 2005) answer in my rebuttal to you in the scroll, "Non-Weave Magic", having the full context is valuable.

As I continue to say though: if I am wrong, confirm the conflation. There is absolutely nothing wrong or shameful about being wrong. I welcome it as an opportunity to correct an incorrect outlook, and for it to help me interact with the material better as well as grow as a person.

I welcome your rebuttal good sir.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  22:44:55  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Plainly stated:

The Emerald Enclave's REPUTATION is legendary and ruthless. Meaning it is well established fact that they are a way (which does not denote an additional action).

DOES NOT EQUAL

The plague that killed half a region's population.

Your inability to see this basic distinction is astounding to me because it has been shown to you several times. I'm left only with the possible conclusion that you take things very literally and this impedes your ability to properly use logic. Knowing the definition of a thing word for word is not the same as being able to use the thing.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  23:04:28  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

quote:
The Emerald Enclave's REPUTATION is legendary and ruthless. Meaning it is well established fact that they are a way (which does not denote an additional action).


I appreciate the response as always.

While you are certainly correct that a reputation does exist about them (because reputations are attained in one manner or another), you are missing the part that does denote action:

quote:
That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."(Vilhon Reach, p.17)

In this case, 'as' is an adverb describing the degree of violence in fact being equal. Their violence is on par with the plagues that swept the area, in otherwords.

They have had the "additional action." The words (definition of the word, 'words': a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning usually without being divisible into smaller units capable of independent use) say so.

So, with the words that say the Emerald Enclave are in fact, verifiably violent and ruthless, to such a degree that is "...as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon", that is the evidence.

[quote]I'm left only with the possible conclusion that you take things very literally and this impedes your ability to properly use logic.


I respectfully disagree with your conclusion there. It is inductive reasoning being utilized. If you're unfamiliar with it, you can read up a little on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  23:25:54  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

I also wanted to thank you for the ongoing, and spirited debate. They can certainly get hot, but your time and involvement is appreciated and respected.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2020 :  23:29:25  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Attacks to the man...

Very well...

I'm assuming you have read Hume's works on the flawed nature of Inductive Reasoning? You understand the vulnerability of your entire premise in your arguments is your vaunted throwing about of

INDUCTIVE REASONING

...when you don't even recognize your own biases are undermining your use of inductive reasoning?

As for me, don't presume I need to "study" inductive reasoning. I know well what it is. Your implication is insulting...especially if you are relying on Wikipedia.

If inductive reasoning is going to be the sum total of your platform in logical debate, you have lost any sense of credibility to me. It is tantamount to saying "I said this thing...so this thing is true because I thought it is based on my own reasoning."

That borders on the realm of absurd.

I'm a college educated man (with a double major in Psychology and Central and Southwest Asian Studies) who has worked as a language instructor for major world corporations (PetroChina for one) who at this point is done with trying to show you any modicum of patience.

Your logic is flawed; based on non-existent premises.

I won't engage you further because I suspect you are unable to refrain from further insult veiled in discourse.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2020 :  04:56:13  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Darden,

First off: sorry about the delay in my response. My son was dying to go to the park (even in the snow), and then dinner time! That being said, let's press on, shall wel? :)

quote:
Attacks to the man...


It's unfortunate that that is the belief in this situation, as that is not why I offered the information about inductive reasoning. It was certainly not meant as an ad hominem when I wrote,
quote:
It is inductive reasoning being utilized. If you're unfamiliar with it, you can read up a little on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning
. I can certainly appreciate why it came across that way, but I want to make clear that wasn't my intent at all. I have no motive at all to offer such an insult as I have no personal issues with you. Though we've had a spirited debate, I have had no cause that would justify insulting you with an ad hominem. While I can't change your opinion, I at least wanted to make clear my intentions. The reason it was offered is that few people have had familiarity with it, so I've become accustomed to sharing some quick, basic information, which is what I shared. You fortunately indicated your familiarity with it though, and as well, with Mr. Hume.

It sounds like though, you are not interested in continuing the conversation, so I'll certainly respect that by not eliciting any further comment by you in this scroll.

However, it is fantastic to know that you are familiar with British empiricists and specifically Mr. Hume. No doubt you've as well studied Mr. Kant and his related works too. If you ever feel the desire to discuss some Realms issues through the lens of such works by those gentlemen, or others, I'm always interested and would gladly take the opportunity: no ill will or frustration on my end.

quote:
I'm assuming you have read Hume's works on the flawed nature of Inductive Reasoning? You understand the vulnerability of your entire premise in your arguments is your vaunted throwing about of
INDUCTIVE REASONING ...when you don't even recognize your own biases are undermining your use of inductive reasoning?


Though this appears to be the final conversation you're interested in with me at the Keep, I'll happily answer the questions you posed to me, and thank you for those questions! Thank you!

As to the vulnerability of my "entire premise" by "throwing about of INDUCTIVE REASONING", I am unsure as to the vulnerability that you speak of, beyond throwing words about; however, I'll address that point alongside the, ironically so, implied nature of the reference to Mr. Hume and his work on the "Problem of Induction. As you know, the idea of an apriori presupposition was anathema to Mr. Hume. So, it makes sense that you would argue, consistently I might add, that inferences regarding the "violence and ruthlessness" of the Emerald Enclave being associated inferentially to the plagues of the Vilhon Reach would be a problematic and appear to be conflated. I take no umbrage with empiricism, as experience is how most people make sense of the world. However, the facts and circumstances don't support a purely empirical approach, so I am utilizing an inductive approach. Additionally, you stated that,
quote:
...based on non-existent premises.
, so I'll start there:

  • Premise: The Emerald Enclave's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues in the Vilhon Reach
  • Premise: The Vilhon Reach plagues killed approximately 713,000 people
  • Conclusion: The Emerald Enclave is responsible for approximately 713,000 deaths by their actions


quote:
As for me, don't presume I need to "study" inductive reasoning. I know well what it is. Your implication is insulting...especially if you are relying on Wikipedia.


I didn't presume as much; rather, I conditionally stated that if you are unfamiliar with it, here is some basic information. You're the first person I've debated with on here that has expressed their familiarity with Hume and inductive logic by declaration. AS to the citation of Wikipedia, I can certainly appreciate the frustration there. As a person with a double master's in business economics and public administration, I get the point you make for sure. Wikipedia is hardly the most credible source for information! lol However, the trade-off is it is easy to go through for a summary. Since I was unaware of your background in formal argumentation, I clearly wrongly assumed that might be a good, quick reference point. Thank you again for clarifying! :)

quote:
If inductive reasoning is going to be the sum total of your platform in logical debate, you have lost any sense of credibility to me.


I didn't see any deductive solution to the problem, with the lack of quantifiable and absolutely presented forms of information to be analyzed as possible data. Since an inductive argument is successful predicated upon the strength is a function of the degree, as opposed to deductive arguments. So, effectively, the data I provided regarding the percentile of death in the Vilhon Reach from 75DR to 85DR was a necessary condition to take a step further and analyze possible death tolls, by taking an adjusted population total of the Vilhon Reach, for approximately 1,300 years earlier. Since no census date was available for the population of the Vilhon Reach, I speculated about that population total. In so doing, I took the population total from 1372 DR, reduced it by 75% (to be generous and allow for a large error tolerance) and then halved that, to come to the approximated death total, that is purported to be commensurate with the "violence and ruthlessness" of the Emerald Enclave.

quote:
It is tantamount to saying "I said this thing...so this thing is true because I thought it is based on my own reasoning."


Hmm, I have to disagree with that. The idea of taking whatever the maximum amount of information and/or data that is available, and using clearly defined approaches to reasonably extrapolate an outcome is exactly what happens in statistical analysis, such as doing surveys for political polling. You take a sample, treat it, create a set of poll questions, test, and evaluate. While certainly it is reasonable for someone to come back and evaluate the approach in order to criticize the validity of the process and thus outcomes, it is unreasonable to argue that unless absolute empirical data exists so that extrapolation is unnecessary, is non-sensical.

quote:
I'm a college educated man (with a double major in Psychology and Central and Southwest Asian Studies) who has worked as a language instructor for major world corporations (PetroChina for one) who at this point is done with trying to show you any modicum of patience.


Very nice. That's an impressive educational pedigree. Congratulations on your success!

quote:
I won't engage you further because I suspect you are unable to refrain from further insult veiled in discourse.


I think I have with reason, honesty, genuineness and authenticity, conveyed that a misunderstanding has occurred about your having taken offense at an earlier statement of mine. I was happy to clear that up. Hopefully it will suffice such that you will be open to further debate! :)

As always, I appreciate the opportunity for a spirited debate Great Reader Darden.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2454 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2020 :  23:52:03  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  00:02:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Zeromaru X,

quote:
I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.


You know, that is a fine point, good sir. I grew up with the old, and as far as I know (minus novels) I own all of the old stuff (maybe missing something here or there, but unsure). It's hard to have that kind of thing changed for a new setting change.

It sounds like there is a contested idea about some obelisks perhaps being set up to turn back time (Summon Cher IX).

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  03:30:44  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.




I'm not a big fan of destruction unless there is a good story behind it. "Yup Halruua was destroyed, yup Lurien is drowned" broke my soul" but the smashing of Myth Drannor made sense to me. I don't mind so much "moving on" but the blatant disrespect for regions that just aren't currently important really saddened me.

I'm still waiting to hear what happened to Lagdarma in the spellplague :-)

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2454 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  14:17:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr


I'm not a big fan of destruction unless there is a good story behind it. "Yup Halruua was destroyed, yup Lurien is drowned" broke my soul" but the smashing of Myth Drannor made sense to me. I don't mind so much "moving on" but the blatant disrespect for regions that just aren't currently important really saddened me.

I'm still waiting to hear what happened to Lagdarma in the spellplague :-)




Well, that's my point: I don't know what Lagdarma is supposed to be?

As for Myth Drannor, its destruction made no sense to me. It was destroyed just to please fans of 2e, who cling to outdated fantasy concepts such as "only humans are allowed to have full kingdoms in fantasy".

I do agree with you about Halruua, its destruction was for the sake of it, but Luiren? I'm fine with that. We need to get rid of these stupid fat hobbits

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  15:00:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Zeromaru X,

quote:
I do agree with you about Halruua, its destruction was for the sake of it, but Luiren? I'm fine with that. We need to get rid of these stupid fat hobbits


Halruaa definitely didn't need to go. Luiren makes the best cheese! No way should it go!

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3738 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  15:38:39  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Langdarma is basically the Forgotten Realms analogue of Shambhala.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11734 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  16:40:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Personally, when it comes to Var the Golden and the other shining lands that "sank beneath the waves", I think it would be a good idea to just use the same mechanic for a lot of things. Portions of it went to Abeir (...) Rather than just "status quo" it with some destruction, I would have what happened following the spellplague (and yep, I can hear some people complaining already).



You were talking about me,

But I feel that sending everything to Abeir just to preserving the old status quo is lazy. Sometimes, just plain old destruction is good, as it allows the Realms to evolve and give ground to new concepts.

But that's just me. I didn't grew with the old Realms, and don't have the money to buy 200 lorebooks to read about the place and get to learn why you want to preserve it.

That said, I'm all about bringing stuff from Abeir to the post-Sundering Realms. Though, I would go for coexistence rather than mutual annihilation.




Actually, for as much as you say you don't like my idea, it sounds like you'd have no problem with it. Remember, I said "bring it back with changes". I'm very much talking about "how can we bring things back, but bring them back different".

The one part where we're a little different is the idea that people from Abeir would come over and there wouldn't be some kind of conflict as two cultures collide. Now, it doesn't have to be "total war", but if we're talking adventuring, that's one way to add adventuring options. That being said, I'm open for ideas. What kind of Abeirans would you put there and what would you do with them (to note, I didn't say what kinds of people's I'd put there... as I don't have a preference just yet).

I'd also add that all 3 countries of the shining lands were only mildly interesting to me BEFORE the spellplague, and the 4e changes only mildly improved them. So, honestly, I was never a big proponent of either version, so in my book this is an opportunity to do something with the region that both builds on prior lore and gives a relatively free hand to design something new.

Oh, and on Langdarma, since it was brought up.... even many in-the-know old realms sages don't know what it is, because it was featured in one novel and a dragon article relating the NPC's of that novel. Its a land of extreme peace hidden high in the mountains of the Utter East, where committing murder be inconceivable. Shangri la would possibly be the best comparison, and the place was some place that Sune was highly interested in. That being said, I too wonder about the place ever since the spellplague (and that can be extended to the entirety of the utter east, which saw precious little lore in the first place).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Oct 2020 16:51:26
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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
2285 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  17:34:12  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

I definitely had not heard of it. I just started looking into it. Thanks for the mention of that to both Great Reader's sleyvas and Lord Karsus.

I'll be digging into that today! :)

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  18:30:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


As for Myth Drannor, its destruction made no sense to me. It was destroyed just to please fans of 2e, who cling to outdated fantasy concepts such as "only humans are allowed to have full kingdoms in fantasy".




My issue isn't that Myth Drannor was destroyed (AGAIN), it was that there shouldn't have been all that much to destroy.

The place was a ruin for literally centuries... And then, in the epilogue to the trilogy where elves decided to go back, it appears to be a thriving place just five years after they kicked out the fey'ri -- and the fey'ri had somehow "cleansed" Myth Drannor of centuries' worth of nastybads and such, in the few months they were there.

If it was up to me, at most, at the 5 year mark, there would have been a few blocks that were recovered, and the rest of the place would have been the same ruins it was in the boxed set. A century later? Yeah, much more would be recovered -- but there would still be a long way to go.

And it's not about who the occupants were -- I was never a fan of the Retreat, anyway. It's about centuries of neglect and magical weirdness and nastybads lurking under every rock, all in a city shattered by war. You don't just bounce back from that immediately.

Not only that, but making it an active recovery thing gives the PCs a lot of options. They can stay in the safe zone -- which would be more of an armed camp than anything else -- make forays into the ruins, and get back to safety when necessary.

There were years of adventuring potential in Myth Drannor, and first WotC chucked it out the window, then decided to bring it back (but not really!) in another clumsy, "oh, come on!" manner.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Oct 2020 18:32:05
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Seethyr
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Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  19:41:50  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  19:54:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)



If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
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Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  20:09:14  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Perhaps itís time for a Langdarma Adventurers Guide :-)



If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.



It would definitely help for me to read Faces of Deception again though the copy I bought long ago was only half finished (inside joke for anyone who has read it).

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cpthero2
Great Reader

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Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  23:28:08  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
If you've got good ideas on what to do with it... personally, its SUCH an odd place that's "anti" adventurer that I'd not know exactly what to do with it to make it true without ruining it. Then again, maybe some devils or something have discovered the paths leading to it and they plan to capture the people there and sacrifice them or turn them or something.



After now having read up on this place (not a lot to read), I don't think the adventure is as much "there", as it is getting there. West of Langdarma is plenty of "adventuring" possibilities, and with the dearth (caveat: I have not read the novel yet) of information about Langdarma, there could be so many cool opportunities there, like the oft discredited Eldath, as one of many notions.

Anyhow, thanks again for sharing about that. That is amazing.

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Seethyr
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Posted - 30 Oct 2020 :  23:49:02  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is what I love about the realms so much. Iím not sure how many years youíve been reading Realms lore CptHero, but isnít it amazing how easy it is to find out about something youíve never heard of before? You can be 40 years in and have missed an entire region.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 31 Oct 2020 :  00:57:41  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Senior Scribe Seethyr,

quote:
This is what I love about the realms so much. Iím not sure how many years youíve been reading Realms lore CptHero, but isnít it amazing how easy it is to find out about something youíve never heard of before? You can be 40 years in and have missed an entire region.


Since 1986 for me. Yeah, I agree with you. It is amazing!

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 01 Nov 2020 :  01:39:37  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Faces of Deception was the last FR book I read, and it was so bad that I stopped in the middle of it. Still have out out, didn't pack it away with my other Forgotten Realms books since I got it off of eBay a couple of years ago.

-As far as Langdarma, I might still have that chapter from the Kara-Tur Re-Dux that I did. I'll have to find my external hard drive and hook it up to see.

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cpthero2
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 01 Nov 2020 :  03:23:39  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Lord Karsus,

Wow. I didn't expect to hear that. What was so bad about it?

I'd love to see what you have about Langdarma. I don't know much about it at all.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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Posted - 01 Nov 2020 :  04:36:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Faces of Deception was the last FR book I read, and it was so bad that I stopped in the middle of it. Still have out out, didn't pack it away with my other Forgotten Realms books since I got it off of eBay a couple of years ago.



There are two Realms novels that when I got done reading them, I wanted to hurl them across the room in sheer anger. Faces of Deception is one of them.

It's been years since I read it... But from what I recall, I didn't like the main character, and I felt, upon reaching the end of the novel, that absolutely nothing had changed and it had all been a waste of time.

I'll grant that it's been a long time -- 20 years, probably -- and there's a fair chance that there was some nuance in the book that I missed. But all these years later, that book still leaves a bad enough taste in my mouth that I'm not willing to give it another chance.

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