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Hemvar
Acolyte
7 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2021 : 20:17:31
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I'm sorry if this is already a topic, but I was unable to find it if it does exist.
I run a blog for the Forgotten Realms and I was interested in making a post about things that use to have different names to what we are generally use to hearing. Examples would be Saerloon was once Chondathan, Selgaunt once Chancelgaunt, the Moonsea once The Dragon Sea, or even Erevis Cale once being Vasen Coriver or House Do'Urden's ancient name being Daermon N'a'shezbaernon. I that's all I can think of off the top of my head, well I suppose Waterdeep being Aelinthaldaar may count too.
Surely I am missing some, any help?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6669 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 02:16:28
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Bezantur = Kensten
Neverwinter = Eigersstor
Darromar = Ithmong
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 02:50:32
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What was Luskan called at first? I thought it had a different name.
Undermountain...? Hmmm...can't recall right now. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6669 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 10:56:36
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Illusk.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 16:22:42
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Sulduskoon = Berdusk
Silent Wood = Snakewood
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
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Hemvar
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 19:29:04
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| Thanks for all the help sagely scholars! These will help tremendously, keep 'em coming if there are any more. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2021 : 21:11:13
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Heliogabalus became Helgabal.
In my opinion, the name Heliogabalus did need to be changed -- it's awkward and directly lifted from real-world mythology/history -- but Helgabal is not really an improvement. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2021 : 15:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heliogabalus became Helgabal.
In my opinion, the name Heliogabalus did need to be changed -- it's awkward and directly lifted from real-world mythology/history -- but Helgabal is not really an improvement.
There are countless classic monsters, deities, cultures lifted from RW history and mythology in both D&D and FR. I think this attitude of "Oh this is from the real world, no good!" gets a bit carried away. As long as it is done well, and is distinguishable in it's own right, there should be no problem. What relation does the city of Heligobalus have to the Roman sun deity anyway? Nothing, save the name.
Having said that I like the name Helgabal better since it's more concise and less of a mouthful.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2021 : 16:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Heliogabalus became Helgabal.
In my opinion, the name Heliogabalus did need to be changed -- it's awkward and directly lifted from real-world mythology/history -- but Helgabal is not really an improvement.
There are countless classic monsters, deities, cultures lifted from RW history and mythology in both D&D and FR. I think this attitude of "Oh this is from the real world, no good!" gets a bit carried away. As long as it is done well, and is distinguishable in it's own right, there should be no problem. What relation does the city of Heligobalus have to the Roman sun deity anyway? Nothing, save the name.
Having said that I like the name Helgabal better since it's more concise and less of a mouthful.
I don't mind it for monsters or gods, but that's as far as I go -- real-world names for characters or cities is out. You can explain away monsters and gods, but it's harder to explain having a city named after someone that's never been present in the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2021 : 23:45:08
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The thing which bothers me with Heliogabalus isn't the general origin on our world ... it's the specific regional origin.
The city is in Damara - which (in my mind) has always evoked imagery of places like Ukraine, Romania, Moldova. Or rather, the imagined B-movie imagery of cold mists, dark forests, howling wolves, lurking monsters, sullen suspicious superstitious peasants. A more generally Ravenloft (or Season of the Witch) sort of setting flavour.
But on our world Heliogabalus is associated more with ancient Roman and ancient Persian things. A temperate Mediterranean clime, or perhaps a sunny Arabian crescent - beautiful people, beautiful beaches, beautiful cities - radiant, shining jewels of the world, the hearts of learning and civilization and conquest - along with peoples and cultures vastly different than anything I'd expect to see in the ruggedly self-reliant Bloodstone Lands. My focus ignores the deity or the person historically associated with the name, it's more about the "setting" associations being wrong.
Should've named the place something pseudo-Germanic like Wyrmshold or Griswold or Vulkshaven, or better yet something pseudo-Slavic like Vorhorod or Sriblogorsk. A better fit to the setting (as I imagine it). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2021 00:13:56 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6669 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 00:34:44
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Or just named it without any nod to real world linguistics. I love Elaine Cunningham, but her decision to lean on her Polish heritage when describing Rashemen in terms of names was not the best call ever. That "Eastern-European" slant has been present evermore in the lands of the Unapproachable East.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 02:00:35
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| -At the end of the day, our real world..."biases" (I guess that would be the best word) are always going to leak and bleed into any fantasy creation to some degree or another, since that's all we literally known and can conceptualize. I am of the opinion that as long as it is not blatant to the point of being eye rolling, that as long as it's using the cultures we know as a base to work with and building off of that to create a fantasy culture, I'm fine with it. With most places in the Realms (not including the add-on continents that are supposed to be obvious cultural analogues), I think they do a good job building something different from those bases. The Bedine stick out as being a culture/group that really struggled with getting there for me. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 14:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-At the end of the day, our real world..."biases" (I guess that would be the best word) are always going to leak and bleed into any fantasy creation to some degree or another, since that's all we literally known and can conceptualize. I am of the opinion that as long as it is not blatant to the point of being eye rolling, that as long as it's using the cultures we know as a base to work with and building off of that to create a fantasy culture, I'm fine with it. With most places in the Realms (not including the add-on continents that are supposed to be obvious cultural analogues), I think they do a good job building something different from those bases. The Bedine stick out as being a culture/group that really struggled with getting there for me.
I definitely agree. And quite often you do want the themes of a particular culture (say Vikings, Celts, Ancient Egyptians), but you don't want it to be a lazy and blatant copy-paste either. You want it to be interesting and unique in it's right, but to evoke the feeling of a certain distinct culture. I.e. Set-worshipping Stygia of the Hyborian Age (which is obviously inspired by Egypt).
I struggle with the Bedine as well, since the name and culture resembles the Bedouin too much, and I don't like there being an Arabic themed culture where it doesn't make sense, and where there are others that are better written and more thought out (like Calimshan). Same with Semphar, which is ruled by a "Caliph" called Abu Bakr, which is just... too much, as he was a very significant figure in the history of Islam, being one of the Prophet's companions. It's a bit like a having a character called Paul the Apostle or Peter the Apostle walking around in Faerun. Completely out of place. And other than that Semphar is basically Khwarazm getting stomped by the Mongols. Would have love to have known what Semphar actually was like in Ed's FR.
So I can sympathize with the aversion to having RW inspired cultures, when there are so many examples of badly written ones in Forgotten Realms. But I still think it can be done right, and is in of itself, not a deficiency nor does it detract from the setting, as long as it is done passionately, thoughtfully and respectfully. The Moonshae Isles and the Old Empires are good examples in my mind, but of course they've been very little touched since 2nd edition (excluding some good albeit brief updates on the region done in the various Dragon magazines) and definitely have room for improvement. The Endless Waste was also well brushed up in the Dragon magazine that dealt with it. Ah, if only Wizards brought in FR designers in the current Dragon magazine to polish, expand and improve various lands of Forgotten Realms that rarely ever get covered. |
Edited by - deserk on 26 Jan 2021 14:20:40 |
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Hemvar
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 17:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Ah, if only Wizards brought in FR designers in the current Dragon magazine to polish, expand and improve various lands of Forgotten Realms that rarely ever get covered.
Hear, hear!
I think I thought of another one; Baldur's Gate was once Gray Harbor ( realize this is still part of the city but the whole settlement used to me be named so) |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 19:21:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hemvar
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Ah, if only Wizards brought in FR designers in the current Dragon magazine to polish, expand and improve various lands of Forgotten Realms that rarely ever get covered.
Hear, hear!
I think I thought of another one; Baldur's Gate was once Gray Harbor ( realize this is still part of the city but the whole settlement used to me be named so)
Waterdeep is supposed to be an analog of Seattle, right? If so, there is a Grays Harbor south of Seattle on the Pacific Coast. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 21:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Hemvar
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Ah, if only Wizards brought in FR designers in the current Dragon magazine to polish, expand and improve various lands of Forgotten Realms that rarely ever get covered.
Hear, hear!
I think I thought of another one; Baldur's Gate was once Gray Harbor ( realize this is still part of the city but the whole settlement used to me be named so)
Waterdeep is supposed to be an analog of Seattle, right? If so, there is a Grays Harbor south of Seattle on the Pacific Coast.
No, it's just that Seattle is the closest real-world analogue, in terms of climate. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11855 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 22:48:37
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| Rashemen was variously known as the Lakelands of Shemen, the Lands of Shemen, and the Lakelands |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Hemvar
Acolyte
7 Posts |
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maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 05:58:57
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Not sure if this is part of the old vs new, but I was looking through Powers & Pantheons yesterday and there is Appendix A: Aliases, which is a list of aliases of the gods.
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Newer Names for Older things
