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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 00:19:52
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I have to say, the success of Wrath of the Righteous (currently sitting at a cool 1.7mil and growing on Kickstarter) does make me wish the Realms tried as hard as Pathfinder does to be inclusive; the adventure path prominently features a transgender lesbian and her wife, who will be in the game as your trusted advisors. Pathfinder itself has taken great pains to have a broad, queer cast (special shoutout to the iconic Oracle being a trans woman, and several of the iconics are gay or bi), and the comparative lack in D&Dland stings.
This brought to you by a lovely Reddit argument about Edwina in BG2. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 18:10:40
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Too long a thread to read everything so I'll just put my two cents out there:
Firstly, Ed has stated in the past that, in the absence of an over-arching monotheistic Church pushing one set of beliefs, for the most part gender-bias hasn't developed in the Realms.
Note that I said for the most part. There are communities that have developed 'problems' with non-cis genders/relations. Also, nobles/royals are expected to marry and have children to carry the family legacy. It's up to the couple to decide how their personal relations will work beyond that.
There are stories (written and in canon) that feature, at least to a small degree, gay/bisexual characters (no trans that I'm currently aware of). One such character was a (I believe) elven diplomat (last name was Summerwind) who kissed king Azoun and then turned and kissed his queen as well. By kissed I mean deeply and passionately.
And Erin Evans had a dragonborn that was gay (can't recall the name off the top of my head) but it really didn't feature in the story.
For my campaigns I largely adhere to Ed's take on the Realms regarding sexual/gender norms. But there are certain regions where it's less acceptable. Typically, areas that are more dangerous, such as the Moonsea North, have less tolerance for it. Not because people particularly care, but because they see a real need to keep the population (re)growing.
Ironically, orcs in the Moonsea region are more tolerant of it because, for my game, Moonsea orcs are very similar to orcs from Elder Scrolls. That is, the chief of a tribe is the only one allowed to mate with the females. This sort of 'forces' other males to relieve their tensions with non-females. It also means there are a lot of half-orcs in the region. And, since no one orc can really 'keep up' with dozens of females, the she-orcs also relieve their tensions together. But that's just for my game and it has never been a focus in any campaign I've run (and I don't think it every should be).
I see Mulhorand as a bit more conservative in this area of thought/belief (again, for MY games). I only see it this way because the pantheon is more organized and focused than the Faerunian pantheon. The entire Mulhorandi pantheon pretty much works closely together to maintain it's base of power in the region and its clergy tend to preach a doctrine that will increase the number of followers for their deities. In other words, they don't want to keep playing second fiddle to the Faerunian gods.
I also see the Dwarven pantheon as being rather conservative in this area while the elven gods are wide open with it. In fact, if there's a pantheon that truly embraces LGBTQ-ness it will be the elves. But even here, the noble/royal houses are expected to bear children to continue family lines.
That's just a quick rundown of my two cents and how things are in my games but the topic really isn't addressed that much in the lore. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:44:06
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I'm practical and have no issues with any extreme, really. Both realism and GLBT friendliness is ok. I just find the 3.5 title listing in the main book a bit hilarious if I try translating it to my native language, as Lady Lord sounds as "Womanman" or Dameherren for german speakers... or a bit like saying Baroness Count, or Princess Duke, in a way…
Outside that, got no issues at all, we got a medieval world, translated to modern times for gaming. That makes a ton of issues. Just look at Warhammer 40k if anyone think D&D got issues!   |
Edited by - Starshade on 09 Mar 2020 23:44:51 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 07:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
I'm practical and have no issues with any extreme, really. Both realism and GLBT friendliness is ok. I just find the 3.5 title listing in the main book a bit hilarious if I try translating it to my native language, as Lady Lord sounds as "Womanman" or Dameherren for german speakers... or a bit like saying Baroness Count, or Princess Duke, in a way…
Outside that, got no issues at all, we got a medieval world, translated to modern times for gaming. That makes a ton of issues. Just look at Warhammer 40k if anyone think D&D got issues!
I'd push back a little on the idea that "realism" and "LGBT friendliness" are in some way opposed. Without an Abrahamic-equivalent with those specific biases, there's no real reason to have queerphobia. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 19:44:13
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Learned Scribe Starshade,
quote:
I'm practical and have no issues with any extreme, really.
So, by this, are you meaning that realism and/or "GLBT" are extremes, or are you meaning that you have no issues with any extreme of any kind?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2020 : 20:24:13
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| Dawned on me last night that a drow coming out as non-binary is a pretty revolutionary act, given both the starkly gendered nature of Lolthite culture and the fact that Corellon (her most hated foe) is non-binary themself. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2020 : 10:16:09
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| Surprisingly related to the post above: I had no idea there was a drow trans man in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist! And he has a gun, to boot. He doesn’t get a ton of detail, but it certainly seems like his joining the mercenary band was tied to his transition. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 04 Apr 2020 05:02:48 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 13:30:24
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I'd push back a little on the idea that "realism" and "LGBT friendliness" are in some way opposed. Without an Abrahamic-equivalent with those specific biases, there's no real reason to have queerphobia.
While history is a lot more comprehensible and emotionally satisfying with clear villains and simplistic storylines, note that gender inequality and prejudices based on sexual behviour existed long before the first Abrahamic religion emerged and continue to exist in countries where very few espouse any Abrahamic religions.
It's simply and obviously untrue that such societies as historical China at any period (nor indeed any other Asian societies), proto-Indo-Europeans, Fertile Crescent cultures or pre-Christian Rome were Paradises of equal rights, without the oppressive Patriarchy and a benevolent, enlightened view on sexual relations, preferences or orientations. Indeed, women were shockingly oppressed in nearly all societies, all through history, regardless of religion, and any deviation from culturally sanctioned sexual roles and activity have been condemned.
The default human state is hatred and prejudice against everyone who doesn't fall into a specific in-group. All human cultures have ostracised and discriminated against some groups, often based on gender roles, sexual activity and the violation of arbitrary taboos.
Religions are shaped by this tendency, but the idea that any one religion causes it is a naive fantasy that reduces a complex problem to a simple one of Good vs. Evil. Also, ironically, it allows the group espousing it to ritually ostracise another group of people, thus obtaining an outlet for the innate human drive for tribal in-group behaviour.
Tolerance for other people being different from us, in any significant way, especially as relates to spheres of self-identity and the taboo-rich subject of sex, has historically been a fringe view. Today, it is popular only among a minority of people on Earth, most of them from societies where the majority still espouses Abrahamic religions.
In huge areas, like China, India, some African countries and many other places, the vast majority of people don't see any reason to accept other gender roles or sexual behaviour than what is standard in their culture. Which, despite the lack of Abrahamic religions as a major force, is still pretty much in line with those specific biases.
Tolerance and equal rights are values humans can work toward, but they are not any kind of innate state for people. Human history should be ample proof of that. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 21 Jul 2020 13:31:21 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 16:56:02
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Well yes, what you say Icelander, is in a large part true.
Still fictional worlds, don't have to follow what happened in our world exactly, and there are reasons they diverged (ie for example elven influence on humanity in Toril, among things).
It is also noted societies became more sexist World's history (ie women having at least in many ways greater rights and power in Celtic, Egyptian, Sumerian, Scytian, Sarmatian, Germanic societies, largely than in Rome, Athens or overall most or all of Europe for well over a millennium).
And yes, Christianity was not the sole reason for lack of women rights, or prejudice towards people on the LGBT spectrum. Greeco-Roman culture, being so important in forming in pat also the Western culture, was also crucial, if know what Ancients Greeks (especially Athenians) and Romans though of women.
Athenians in Greece itself, were known as being more sexist than many other Greek states.
It is known in Sumer, Egypt, Canaan there might had been even more tolerant towards people in same sex-relationships than Ancient Greece.
Priesthood of Ishtar/Inanna, Gala, were known to have complex non-standard gender identities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gala_(priests)
And also possibly connected to rituals were a persons legal gender was changed, or at least to people identifying as the other gender than their biological sex:
https://hornet.com/stories/how-a-sumerian-goddess-turned-gender-on-its-head/
Pre-Christian Slavic culture had apparently a form of same sex weddings, pr at least ritual celebration of a same sex relationship, that was for centuries retained even after Christianization:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Poland#Early_history
Even Ancient Jewish religion, it apparently weren't originally homophobic (or at least not as much, as latter), just the the oldest religious texts (specifically Leviticus) being edited so that it would be homophobic, when originally the infamous "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." is most probably a probably intentional corruption of a general rule against incest.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hWiW8eooF0
With all of this, it's at least quite easy to imagine that with some changes, there could be a visibly more tolerant if not perfect (towards women and people on the LGBT spectrum) 400s to 1600s in our our world, no matter a different world. |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jul 2020 17:05:03 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 18:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Still fictional worlds, don't have to follow what happened in our world exactly, and there are reasons they diverged (ie for example elven influence on humanity in Toril, among things).
Fictional worlds can differ from reality, yes. The thing I objected to was the incorrect anthropology used to explain the difference.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
It is also noted societies became more sexist World's history (ie women having at least in many ways greater rights and power in Celtic, Egyptian, Sumerian, Scytian, Sarmatian, Germanic societies, largely than in Rome, Athens or overall most or all of Europe for well over a millennium).
Eh, the most we can say is that there has been variation. We can't exactly track a trajectory in any direction, aside from the recent aberration of history that has people actually tolerating each other.
The less that is known about a given culture, the more likely that people will project their own personal desires and prejudices on it. Most Utopian fantasies about pre-historic cultures have been disproven with further research. As it turns out, humans have always been pretty bad.
You're right in pointing to Scytho-Sarmatian cultures as outliers (warriors were around 20% female and the warrior class was clearly socially dominant), but note that medieval Europe actually had higher status and more rights for women than the majority of the world, as well as less discrimination on the basis of sexual behaviour. That's not to say that it was a shining beacon of equality, just that the standards in most of the world have been so awful that medieval Europe was actually better than average. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 18:27:49
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Well, yes there always has been a visible violent and intolerant side to humanity, bur we also don't know all about our past yet, not even close, before 4000 BCE.
While there certainly was no Matriarchal utopias in Prehistoric Europe (and the the World), it there are hints there were greater rights towards women, which most often waned in later societies, with hints though it might be cyclical, rather than a steady decline.
With Medieval (and a lot of Early Modern) Europe, yes I don't mean they were worse than most contemporaneity societies. In multiple ways, Medieval Europe gave women greater rights than Athens and Rome.
This is what I meant when writing women having at least in many ways greater rights, not writing that absolutely or even in general. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.
Female warriors were also more accepted if not maybe to the degree as among Scythians and Sarmatians among Germanic (including Norse here) (and possibly to a degree Celtic) societies, as well as women in important clerical/sacral and political (this one connected often with the previous of course) positions.
Yes, there were female warriors or women in involved with warfare in Medieval Christian European, and early modern European societies, but it was more of a taboo to say the least.
What I meant, was that with even certain changes in history, there could be a society in medieval Europe were female right were better, the same with rights towards people on the LGBT spectrum.
And to compare how in a world with it's own separate history, society with more (or even actual) gender equality or acceptance of people in the LGBT spectrum in Antique, Medieval or Early Modern (ish) settings is probable.
(If we agree on that) |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jul 2020 19:48:33 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 22:36:36
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Some ancient cultures accepted (or even celebrated) homosexuality--at least male homosexuality. I've studied this to some extent, as queer history is an area of interest to me. I'm no expert, and most of my focus has been on Japan, where, pre-Meiji era, male homosexuality was at times even celebrated. Same with places like ancient Greece. And there are many instances of "gender-bending" throughout history. I recommend the book Homosexuality and Civilization, if anyone is curious. A bit dated and sensationalist at times, but informative.
Sorry, just discovered this thread. I haven't read through the entire scroll. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 22:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Dawned on me last night that a drow coming out as non-binary is a pretty revolutionary act, given both the starkly gendered nature of Lolthite culture and the fact that Corellon (her most hated foe) is non-binary themself.
The "gender-bending" nature of the Seldarine is nothing new, they've just drawn more attention to it recently. Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, described the city having statues of the elven deities in both their male and female forms, as the elves can't imagine the gods only having one gender. Corellon, being particularly androgynous, though "he" often appears male. is the most known for it. The one thing I like about MToF was that it emphasized that the Seldarine could be male and female. It described Sehanine, Corellon's beloved, as being both male and female, which put both a non-binary and a homosexual aspect on things, which I found lovely. Sehanine has been primarily portrayed as female, even though, again, the Seldarine being both is nothing new, but it was nice to see more of an emphasis on it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 23:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The "gender-bending" nature of the Seldarine is nothing new, they've just drawn more attention to it recently. Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, described the city having statues of the elven deities in both their male and female forms, as the elves can't imagine the gods only having one gender. Corellon, being particularly androgynous, though "he" often appears male. is the most known for it. The one thing I like about MToF was that it emphasized that the Seldarine could be male and female. It described Sehanine, Corellon's beloved, as being both male and female, which put both a non-binary and a homosexual aspect on things, which I found lovely. Sehanine has been primarily portrayed as female, even though, again, the Seldarine being both is nothing new, but it was nice to see more of an emphasis on it.
It goes even father past than that - since Corellon Larethian first appeared he was described as of androgynous/gender fluid, as were Hanali Celanil and Labelas Enoreth since their first appearance in Dragon #60.
(Although you most probably know this)
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 02:11:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The "gender-bending" nature of the Seldarine is nothing new, they've just drawn more attention to it recently. Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, described the city having statues of the elven deities in both their male and female forms, as the elves can't imagine the gods only having one gender. Corellon, being particularly androgynous, though "he" often appears male. is the most known for it. The one thing I like about MToF was that it emphasized that the Seldarine could be male and female. It described Sehanine, Corellon's beloved, as being both male and female, which put both a non-binary and a homosexual aspect on things, which I found lovely. Sehanine has been primarily portrayed as female, even though, again, the Seldarine being both is nothing new, but it was nice to see more of an emphasis on it.
It goes even father past than that - since Corellon Larethian first appeared he was described as of androgynous/gender fluid, as were Hanali Celanil and Labelas Enoreth since their first appearance in Dragon #60.
(Although you most probably know this.
Actually, I did not, so thank you! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 02:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Some ancient cultures accepted (or even celebrated) homosexuality--at least male homosexuality. I've studied this to some extent, as queer history is an area of interest to me. I'm no expert, and most of my focus has been on Japan, where, pre-Meiji era, male homosexuality was at times even celebrated. Same with places like ancient Greece. And there are many instances of "gender-bending" throughout history. I recommend the book Homosexuality and Civilization, if anyone is curious. A bit dated and sensationalist at times, but informative.
Sorry, just discovered this thread. I haven't read through the entire scroll.
To say nothing of the fact that many cultures have gender identities beyond the cis binary: Indian hijra, the two-spirits of some Native American nations, or the muxe of the Zapotec people, just to name a few. There's also room for those identities even in cultures staunch Western sexists glorify, like the cult of Cybele/Magna Mater, whose self-castrating priests lived and dressed as women and practiced widely across the Greek world and Roman empire. Odin was a crossdresser and Loki was a mother.
The idea that everyone on the entire planet has been cis and straight is pure colonialist fantasy. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 22 Jul 2020 02:25:23 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 02:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Some ancient cultures accepted (or even celebrated) homosexuality--at least male homosexuality. I've studied this to some extent, as queer history is an area of interest to me. I'm no expert, and most of my focus has been on Japan, where, pre-Meiji era, male homosexuality was at times even celebrated. Same with places like ancient Greece. And there are many instances of "gender-bending" throughout history. I recommend the book Homosexuality and Civilization, if anyone is curious. A bit dated and sensationalist at times, but informative.
Sorry, just discovered this thread. I haven't read through the entire scroll.
To say nothing of the fact that many cultures have gender identities beyond the cis binary: Indian hijra, the two-spirits of some Native American nations, or the muxe of the Zapotec people, just to name a few. There's also room for those identities even in cultures staunch Western sexists glorify, like the cult of Cybele/Magna Mater, whose self-castrating priests lived and dressed as women and practiced widely across the Greek world and Roman empire. Odin was a crossdresser and Loki was a mother.
The idea that everyone on the entire planet has been cis and straight is pure colonialist fantasy.
Exactly! And we haven't always had the staunch views of cis and "straight" we do now, at least not in every society. Oh, there was certainly misogyny and oppression of certain groups, but even "Western" civilizations weren't always homophobic. As I said, homosexuality (at least male) was celebrated, or, at the very least, tolerated. Oh, you were still of course expected most of the time to marry and produce an heir, but that doesn't mean you couldn't also have a male lover.
The history of human sexuality and gender is complex, and we can't fit it into a box or say that all societies held the same views on gender and sexuality. The history of "LGbTQ" is interesting. Again, I am no expert, but history is full of tales of same-sex love. Just look at Greece. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Jul 2020 02:54:15 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 13:39:49
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I think some posters are reading tolerance into cultures where the idea would literally not be understood. Harsh enforcement of different gender roles or sexual behaviour than we are used to is not tolerance, it is simply a different social organization.
The key here is to look whether non-standard gender identity or sexual orientations were accepted in that society. If someone wanted to commit to a romantic relationship with a man rather than a woman or live as a woman rather than a man, were these regarded as personal choices that did not affect social or economic standing?
Or were they not available as choices anyone could make in life, but rather existed only in the context of special religious roles, which may have been barred from most people and/or involved onerous duties which precluded a normal life?
It's also important to realize that the very concept of homosexuality would have been unfamiliar to most Western, Middle-Eastern and North-African people through most of history. The issue wasn't whether a man engaged in sexual relations with men or women. For the most part, that wasn't all that important (assuming that the culture was accepting of sex for pleasure at all, which was not universal).
No, the important part, to most of these cultures, was that penetrating someone was masculine and virile, hence not shameful, but being penetrated feminine and hence deeply shameful (all right for women, though, who were regarded as 'less than' in all of these societies and barely human in some). The line was simply drawn in a different place.
Young boys, not being fully people yet, could engage to some degree in sexual behaviour considered feminine. Note that even in Greece, stereotypically associated with erastes-eromanes romances, it was usually considered shameful and vulgar for a freeborn boy to be penetrated. Slaves, yes, penetrate them in any way you please, but only a brute would penetrate someone who'd grow up to be a free man.
Crucially, men who fell in love with their peers and wanted to live with them in committed sexual relationships were rarely, if every, accorded that opportunity. While romantic love for a boy was acceptable in numerous societies from the dawn of history, romantic love for a male peer was usually shameful.
These values are not tolerance. They are simply harshly enforced and bigoted gender and sexual roles that draw the line in a different place than modern people are used to.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
To say nothing of the fact that many cultures have gender identities beyond the cis binary: Indian hijra, the two-spirits of some Native American nations, or the muxe of the Zapotec people, just to name a few. There's also room for those identities even in cultures staunch Western sexists glorify, like the cult of Cybele/Magna Mater, whose self-castrating priests lived and dressed as women and practiced widely across the Greek world and Roman empire.
Considering how many of these roles also involved harsh social restrictions, mutilations and near-total abandonment of any other prospects, that's hardly the same as an enlightened attitude of tolerance for differences between people and the right to self-determination. Not to mention that consent and choice were not always present, as slaves or captives were sometimes mutilated for religious purposes.
In any case, the degree to which even this horrific choice was available to the average person is doubtful, as the selection of religious representatives was often in the hands of the elites.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Odin was a crossdresser and Loki was a mother.
Odin dressed as a woman in order to be able to commit rape, Thor disguised himself as a woman as part of a scheme designed by Loki to humiliate him and Loki was forced to submit to a male stallion as his comeuppance in a ribald story about the Norse gods.
In all cases, this is presented as something shameful and darkly humorous to the audience. Citing the existence of trans- or homophobic jokes is not evidence of tolerance in that culture.
By far the most serious insult in Norse culture was being called 'argur', which had shades of meaning including effeminacy (including being the receptive party in sex), untrustworthiness and cowardice.
As with other taboos, those who violated it were both hated and sometimes feared, hence the connection with witchcraft (seiğur) and dangerous magic.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The idea that everyone on the entire planet has been cis and straight is pure colonialist fantasy.
The addition of irrelevant buzzwords is not helpful.
Not to mention that no one has said anything about the existence of gender identities and people with sexual orientations that differed from the standards accepted in their culture. My point was that few, if any, historical cultures have much tolerance for anyone who violates gender or sexual norms, even if those norms themselves may be different from what we expect.
There are cultures (e.g. in New Guinea) where it's not only normal, but mandatory, for boys to engage in sexual behaviour with other boys and, later, as part of a manhood ritual, with all the men in the tribe. That doesn't mean that there is perfect tolerance for people expressing their gender or sexuality in ways that don't fit the prevailing paradigm.
Indeed, boys who secretly seek to engage in relation with girls are condemned as deviants (and harshly punished), as are men who show any signs of sexual attraction towards adult men after their manhood ritual. Interestingly, the percentage of people who violate these sexual norms is about 10%, which is fairly close to many estimates for the percentage of people in Western societies who identify as 'queer' in some way.
Just because a culture has different standards from us for what men and women are supposed to be and what constitutes acceptable sexual behaviour, it doesn't mean that they are any more liberal about people who don't want to follow those standards.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The history of human sexuality and gender is complex, and we can't fit it into a box or say that all societies held the same views on gender and sexuality. The history of "LGbTQ" is interesting. Again, I am no expert, but history is full of tales of same-sex love. Just look at Greece.
It's exactly right that the history is complex, which is why we must take special care not to project modern conceptions of sexuality or gender backwards in time. An ancient culture that enforces different rigid gender roles and acceptable boundaries of sexual and romantic behaviour than Western culture is not more tolerant. We need to look at how that culture perceived and treated those who stepped out of the defined sphere.
My point is that the almost universal constant of human culture is that human societies invent taboos and shibboleths in order to exclude out-groups and being able to ostracize, often ritually, members of their own society who don't follow the rules. This is done to strengthen the bonds among the in-group, who do follow the arbitrary rules and fit into the assigned categories.
In no sphere of activity is this tendency more common than in the sphere of gender and sexuality. So, fantastic societies which propose different taboos and shibboleths can still be plausible, but it strains plausibility to simply expect humans to abandon such a core part of makes them human as the tendency to divide the world into an in-group and the Other, with savage social condemnation for the Other. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 15:08:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, I did not, so thank you!
No problem.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
To say nothing of the fact that many cultures have gender identities beyond the cis binary: Indian hijra, the two-spirits of some Native American nations, or the muxe of the Zapotec people, just to name a few. There's also room for those identities even in cultures staunch Western sexists glorify, like the cult of Cybele/Magna Mater, whose self-castrating priests lived and dressed as women and practiced widely across the Greek world and Roman empire. Odin was a crossdresser and Loki was a mother.
The idea that everyone on the entire planet has been cis and straight is pure colonialist fantasy.
Good to see back keftiu.
With non standard gender identities, Sumerians and Ancient Egyptians were already noted to have concepts of gender other than male or female:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#History
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Considering how many of these roles also involved harsh social restrictions, mutilations and near-total abandonment of any other prospects, that's hardly the same as an enlightened attitude of tolerance for differences between people and the right to self-determination. Not to mention that consent and choice were not always present, as slaves or captives were sometimes mutilated for religious purposes.
In any case, the degree to which even this horrific choice was available to the average person is doubtful, as the selection of religious representatives was often in the hands of the elites.
Not really, with many, many of this non standard gender roles, there was a partial or entire choice on the part of the person who assumed such role. IE the Gala priests I mentioned.
And so you will ignore how many marriages, even most of women, with men through history, were pretty much Marital rape combined with Stockholm syndrome.
Or how many girls, even younger than 10 were forced legally into sexual relationships with much older men?
How boys were for masculine roles were essentially conditioned to kill easier?
How there were and even are many forms of mutilation of sexual organs in societies that enforce only or mostly relationships of people of opposite sex. Including even stuff like circumcision?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Young boys, not being fully people yet, could engage to some degree in sexual behaviour considered feminine. Note that even in Greece, stereotypically associated with erastes-eromanes romances, it was usually considered shameful and vulgar for a freeborn boy to be penetrated. Slaves, yes, penetrate them in any way you please, but only a brute would penetrate someone who'd grow up to be a free man.
Crucially, men who fell in love with their peers and wanted to live with them in committed sexual relationships were rarely, if every, accorded that opportunity. While romantic love for a boy was acceptable in numerous societies from the dawn of history, romantic love for a male peer was usually shameful.
This is why I mentioned other cultures that the Ancient Greek one, that were more tolerant of same sex relationships.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Odin dressed as a woman in order to be able to commit rape, Thor disguised himself as a woman as part of a scheme designed by Loki to humiliate him and Loki was forced to submit to a male stallion as his comeuppance in a ribald story about the Norse gods.
In all cases, this is presented as something shameful and darkly humorous to the audience. Citing the existence of trans- or homophobic jokes is not evidence of tolerance in that culture.
By far the most serious insult in Norse culture was being called 'argur', which had shades of meaning including effeminacy (including being the receptive party in sex), untrustworthiness and cowardice.
As with other taboos, those who violated it were both hated and sometimes feared, hence the connection with witchcraft (seiğur) and dangerous magic.
Loki intentionally seduced the stallion when transforming into mare. The karmic aspect if anything, can be argued, was that it got out he slept with a stallion, when he became pregnant gave birth to Slepnir.
Loki also spent at least eight years in the shape of a milkmaid, and beared several children then (Lokasenna).
In the same text, as response, Loki states Odin taken a female witch guise (or even shape) many times.
(Yes, these were treated as insults, but are also shown as something true, with neither god being able to deny it)
Loki also takes the traditionally female role of the mother of many/a primordial mother, were he was pregnant with many monsters in Hyndluljóğ, were he became the mother of all of the flagd (ogresses/witches/hags) through that birth (and also having by this a relationship with witches and female monsters), as well as being exclusively described by his matronymic (Laufeyson), rather than patronymic, all of which pointed out to a feminine side of Loki, alongside of his masculine side.
Homosexuality was also complicated among Norse, and it was unshameful, apparently as long as one was still masculine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi
Christian influence is also noted on the texts describing Ergi, or even on the Norse heathen traditions, when they interacted with Christians, and parts of them wee converted.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
The idea that everyone on the entire planet has been cis and straight is pure colonialist fantasy.
The addition of irrelevant buzzwords is not helpful.
These are not "irrelevant buzzwords" - Christian expansion, European colonial expansion, and the Europeans trying and often succeeding to force their Christian or Christian based beliefs often succeed in destroying the previous non standard gender identities.
We talk here about real cultural and social damage.
(The same with Muslim expansion)
To this day, many people are ignorant of the existence of conceptions of third gender, or gender identity other than male or female, seeing it as an invention of "decadent and/or stupid millennials".
(Even though scientifically those were researched and found since the first half of 20th century by psychology too)
Or think transgenderism, is also something that only happened in the 20th century.
And yes, many cultures that accepted homosexuality (more), or had non-standard gender roles/identities, still had visible flaws.
But they still gave more chance for non-straight, transgender, and genderqueer people to express themselves, and be themselves, something impossible or close to that beyond some exceptions in Abrahamic and post Abrahamic communities.
Therefore, yes, they were more tolerant, if not and often far from truly tolerant. |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jul 2020 16:17:51 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 16:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Not really, with many, many of this non standard gender roles, there was a partial or entire choice on the part of the person who assumed such role. IE the Gala priests I mentioned.
That's projecting modern concepts of individual choice and self-determination into societies which never recognized such things. Throughout the Mesopotamian cultures (and wider ancient world), the head-of-household was generally the sole dictator over his children, wife, concubines and chattel. The concept of choosing a path in life, career, religious vocation or gender identity would be foreign to most ancient people, particularly Mesopotamians and their Semitic neighbours.
A religious vocation wasn't something you decided on, not if you belonged to a society like the various Mesopotamian ones. You were sold, given or otherwise transacted to one of the temples, the most important economic units in the state, aside from the King. This might be done for any number of reasons, but few, if any of them, had anything to do with what you wanted. No more than nobles in Europe sending their daughters into convents had anything to do with the daughters' desires.
I know it's very popular today to make up comforting fantasies about the past, but when people are ignoring evidence in favour of their Utopian visions, it's just harmful to scholarship.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
And so you will ignore how many marriages, even most of women, with men through history, were pretty much Marital rape combined with Stockholm syndrome.
Or how many girls, even younger than 10 were forced legally into sexual relationships with much older men?
How boys were for masculine roles were essentially conditioned to kill easier?
How there were and even are many forms of mutilation of sexual organs in societies that enforce only or mostly relationships of people of opposite sex. Including even stuff like circumcision?
I'm not ignoring these things. I'm pointing out that the default human society, no matter where or what religion, enforces gender roles with violent ferocity and reacts with horror to those who break away from cultural norms around sexuality.
We can find societies with differing norms, but unless they are very rich and cosmopolitan, we rarely find societies where ignoring or violating the norms around gender and sexuality is tolerated.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
This is why I mentioned other cultures that the Ancient Greek one, that were more tolerant of same sex relationships.
The only correlation we can find, in a historical sense, is that toleration increases with wealth and cosmopolitanism in a society. It seems fairly irrelevant what religion holds sway.
Rome had a law on the books that made sexual congress between free adult men punishable by death. This law as actually enforced in earlier times, quietly ignored in favour of social condemnation later on and considered old-fashioned by the time Rome was a wealthy, cosmopolitan superpower, with an educated elite exposed to a wide range of different cultures.
All cultures are strongly bigoted, each in their own way, and the only way to reduce it is to expose the people in them to as many different things and worldviews as possible. This requires wealth, education and travel.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Loki also spent at least eight years in the shape of a milkmaid, and beared several children then (Lokasenna).
In the same text, as response, Loki states Odin taken a female witch guise (or even shape) many times.
(Yes, these were treated as insults, but are also shown as something true, with neither god being able to deny it)
Loki also takes the traditionally female role of the mother of many/a primordial mother, were he was pregnant with many monsters in Hyndluljóğ, were he became the mother of all of the flagd (ogresses/witches/hags) through that birth (and also having by this a relationship with witches and female monsters), as well as being exclusively described by his matronymic (Laufeyson), rather than patronymic, all of which pointed out to a feminine side of Loki, alongside of his masculine side.
Homosexuality was also complicated among Norse, and it was unshameful, apparently as long as one was still masculine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergi
Homosexuality, as a concept, is anachronistic for the period and society. The relevant factor was penetrating or being penetrated. In most Western (and other historical societies), penetrating a submissive male was often not regarded as something that had any bearing on your masculinity or identity as a virile man, father of sons and husband to a wife.
Taking any kind of feminine role, in sex or in society, however, was shameful for a man, which is why it had a strong magical significance, as the violation of a powerful taboo.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Christian influence is also noted on the texts describing Ergi, or even on the Norse heathen traditions, when they interacted with Christians, and parts of them wee converted.
I'm aware that some 'researchers' are very eager to reach conclusions that fit their preconceptions, but there is no actual evidence that supports this. Indeed, the arguments usually start by begging the question, i.e. presuming without evidence that pre-Christian Norse culture had no sexual or gender-based prejudices and assuming that any hint of negativity toward non-standard gender roles or sexual activity must therefore be Christian influences.
In actual fact, an accusation of ergi was regarded as a deadly insult that justified killing in pre-Christian Iceland and, it appears, all the Old Norse cultural sphere.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
These are not "irrelevant buzzwords" - Christian expansion, European colonial expansion, and the Europeans trying and often succeeding to force their Christian or Christian based beliefs often succeed in destroying the previous non standard gender identities.
We talk here about real cultural and social damage.
(The same with Muslim expansion)
To this day, many people are ignorant of the existence of conceptions of third gender, or gender identity other than male or female, seeing it as an invention of "decadent and/or stupid millennials".
(Even though scientifically those were researched and found since the first half of 20th century by psychology too)
Or think transgenderism, is also something that only happened in the 20th century.
The very ideas of individualism, personal choice and tolerance for differing views and customs are historical outliers only possible in fantastically rich (and thus able to afford education, leisure and travel) and cosmopolitan societies.
They haven't been common in any culture, historically, because the default state of humanity is xenophobic hatred of outsiders and the constant struggle to belong, mostly through ritually shunning those who are different in any way.
It's naive to link condemnation of the Other and taboos surrounding gender and sexual behaviour to a specific religion or culture, when all the evidence indicates that this is a feature of all cultures and the only thing which counteracts it is travel, education and wealth. Only recently in human history have ordinary people become wealthy enough for the conditions for widespread tolerance to emerge and allow even the theoretical possibility for peaceful acceptance of people who don't follow local cultural standards.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
And yes, many cultures that accepted homosexuality (more), or had non-standard gender roles/identities, still had visible flaws.
But they still gave more chance for non-straight, transgender, and genderqueer people to express themselves, and be themselves, something impossible or close to that beyond some exceptions in Abrahamic and post Abrahamic communities.
Therefore, yes, they were more tolerant, if not and often far from truly tolerant.
Despite the fact that Christian influences are not really a political factor in India, homosexual relations are literally a crime there. In 2020. The evidence simply doesn't support the popular, but naive, idea that bigotry is somehow a monopoly for societies with Abrahamic religious influences.
What you call 'visible flaws' in historical societies, I call economic, social, political and religious persecution far worse than any of the things that outrage people in Western societies. Again, having different rigidly enforced social roles in no way means having true freedom.
The availability of the 'option' of having your family decide that you should be castrated and barred from any legitimate employment, forced into prostitution and/or religious vocation that you didn't choose is not the same as the idea that people should be free to choose how to express their gender and sexuality. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Jul 2020 16:29:16 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 17:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
That's projecting modern concepts of individual choice and self-determination into societies which never recognized such things. Throughout the Mesopotamian cultures (and wider ancient world), the head-of-household was generally the sole dictator over his children, wife, concubines and chattel. The concept of choosing a path in life, career, religious vocation or gender identity would be foreign to most ancient people, particularly Mesopotamians and their Semitic neighbours.
A religious vocation wasn't something you decided on, not if you belonged to a society like the various Mesopotamian ones. You were sold, given or otherwise transacted to one of the temples, the most important economic units in the state, aside from the King. This might be done for any number of reasons, but few, if any of them, had anything to do with what you wanted. No more than nobles in Europe sending their daughters into convents had anything to do with the daughters' desires.
I know it's very popular today to make up comforting fantasies about the past, but when people are ignoring evidence in favour of their Utopian visions, it's just harmful to scholarship.
I think you ignore the fact male born Gala priest were noted to be able to have families and children. And In reference to latter part of your comment, you ignore there is not conclusive about people being sold into temples, especially that priesthood in Mesopotamia came from noble/wealthy families.
This also entrails multiple similar priestly/sacral roles.
Not to mention, ignores expressions of transgenderism and third gender not connected to priestly roles - like Egyptian sekhet, Indian hijra, the two-spirits of multiple Native American nations, or the muxe of the Zapotec people (most of which keftiu mentioned).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm not ignoring these things. I'm pointing out that the default human society, no matter where or what religion, enforces gender roles with violent ferocity and reacts with horror to those who break away from cultural norms around sexuality.
We can find societies with differing norms, but unless they are very rich and cosmopolitan, we rarely find societies where ignoring or violating the norms around gender and sexuality is tolerated.
To be clear, what I meant, is, healthy cisgender male-female relationships didn't really exist till 20th century, even arguably 60s-70s of 20th century, if we go by such logic, although maybe it's something you agree on.
And with the societies with different norms about gender and sexuality - yes there were norms on what behavior is right, and at least social stigma (and often at least some punishment) if they were broken, but within these norms, people attracted to people of the same gender, identifying as a different gender to their birth sex or having non-standard gender identity, had a much greater possibility of expression, especially without the threat of severe punishment or even death, as compared to under Abrahamic faiths, or societies influenced by them till fairly recently.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The only correlation we can find, in a historical sense, is that toleration increases with wealth and cosmopolitanism in a society. It seems fairly irrelevant what religion holds sway.
Rome had a law on the books that made sexual congress between free adult men punishable by death. This law as actually enforced in earlier times, quietly ignored in favour of social condemnation later on and considered old-fashioned by the time Rome was a wealthy, cosmopolitan superpower, with an educated elite exposed to a wide range of different cultures.
All cultures are strongly bigoted, each in their own way, and the only way to reduce it is to expose the people in them to as many different things and worldviews as possible. This requires wealth, education and travel.
You ignore other cultures, which I in my comment I referenced meant other cultures than both Ancient Greece and Rome, being at least in multiple ways more tolerant of same sex relationships.
IE Ancient Slavic, Ancient Egyptian, Sumerian etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Homosexuality, as a concept, is anachronistic for the period and society. The relevant factor was penetrating or being penetrated. In most Western (and other historical societies), penetrating a submissive male was often not regarded as something that had any bearing on your masculinity or identity as a virile man, father of sons and husband to a wife.
Taking any kind of feminine role, in sex or in society, however, was shameful for a man, which is why it had a strong magical significance, as the violation of a powerful taboo.
I meant homosexuality as in terms of same sex relationships. I tried to avoid the term because of it, but I forgot here.
So you changed your idea Loki's shape-shifting into females, intercourses with males, and feminine traits were not out of his own will?
In general it is also thought a function described as shameful and feminine, like seiğr, could be more accepted in the past, especially seeing the main god - Odin - practiced seiğr, and even disguised or transformed into a woman more than once.
Not mentioning Loki himself could have started out very well as an aspect of Odin, but that's another discussion.
There were notes of homosexual relationships occurred among Norse, so some men had to be as the "receiving" one.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm aware that some 'researchers' are very eager to reach conclusions that fit their preconceptions, but there is no actual evidence that supports this. Indeed, the arguments usually start by begging the question, i.e. presuming without evidence that pre-Christian Norse culture had no sexual or gender-based prejudices and assuming that any hint of negativity toward non-standard gender roles or sexual activity must therefore be Christian influences.
In actual fact, an accusation of ergi was regarded as a deadly insult that justified killing in pre-Christian Iceland and, it appears, all the Old Norse cultural sphere.
If I remember right, most or all text mentioning Ergi, from what I know, I from Christian times, or after extensive influence from Christianity.
From what I know, The secular laws of Viking Age Iceland do not mention homosexuality for example:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/gayvik.asp
I'm not claiming Norse were perfectly tolerant even before extensive contact with Christianity (they certainly had at least similar views to Greeks about same-sex relationships among men, probably worse, if varied by region), but that their attitudes were almost certainly overtime influenced by Christians, and much or all we know about Ergi, was written down/copied by Christian or Christian influenced writers.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The very ideas of individualism, personal choice and tolerance for differing views and customs are historical outliers only possible in fantastically rich (and thus able to afford education, leisure and travel) and cosmopolitan societies.
They haven't been common in any culture, historically, because the default state of humanity is xenophobic hatred of outsiders and the constant struggle to belong, mostly through ritually shunning those who are different in any way.
It's naive to link condemnation of the Other and taboos surrounding gender and sexual behaviour to a specific religion or culture, when all the evidence indicates that this is a feature of all cultures and the only thing which counteracts it is travel, education and wealth. Only recently in human history have ordinary people become wealthy enough for the conditions for widespread tolerance to emerge and allow even the theoretical possibility for peaceful acceptance of people who don't follow local cultural standards.
Aside from the fact it's a bit more complicated, if yes general individualism is fairly new, it's not what I meant.
Aside from tying to my above part of the comment, I mean among things, people rejecting in ancient and non European societies there was at least recognition of identifying as a different gender than a person's birth sex, or having a gender identity other than male or female is something very new (ie starting in 20th and 21st century respectively), which it isn't, and often was outright accepted on various levels. And that these beliefs were forced, and are now a inheritance of Colonialism and influence of Abrahamic faiths, among things.
Something keftiu also meant with her comment.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Despite the fact that Christian influences are not really a political factor in India, homosexual relations are literally a crime there. In 2020. The evidence simply doesn't support the popular, but naive, idea that bigotry is somehow a monopoly for societies with Abrahamic religious influences.
What you call 'visible flaws' in historical societies, I call economic, social, political and religious persecution far worse than any of the things that outrage people in Western societies. Again, having different rigidly enforced social roles in no way means having true freedom.
The availability of the 'option' of having your family decide that you should be castrated and barred from any legitimate employment, forced into prostitution and/or religious vocation that you didn't choose is not the same as the idea that people should be free to choose how to express their gender and sexuality.
You are aware Islam extensively influenced India? And Islam is an Abrahamic faith? Did you even hear of Pakistan and in what circumstances it was created?
Colonial British influence (hence I mentioned "post-Abrahamic") also was a further major influence, many would argue greater, seeing a major shift in Indian perspective on same-sex relationships, happen during and after it's colonization by Britain:
Source
With the laws criminalizing homosexuality were literally a holdover from British colonial times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Penal_Code#2018_Navtej_Singh_Johar_v._Union_of_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India#Legal_status
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45429664
And actually consensual Homosexual intercourse was decriminalized in 2018, by uplifting the colonial era law.
(Yes in Arthashastra there was some punishment for for same sex intercourse, but it was outright symbolic, with multiple punishments for some male-female intercourses being far harsher - ie Sex between non-virgin women incurred a small fine, while homosexual intercourse between men could be made up for merely with a bath with one's clothes on, and a penance of "eating the five products of the cow and keeping a one-night fast". And and rules and laws written down in Arthashastra was not universally followed, especially all, and there are records up until 18th century same sex relationships were fairly tolerated in India, and not punished.
Not to mention Hijra, and how they weren't at lest often to the same laws and perspective as people of same gender engaging in sexual activity and relationships, as even reflected in modern Indian laws, were identifying as Hijra in terms of gender identity is legal, if they still face discrimination.)
Yes, there examples not connected to Abrahamic faiths, or even that European influence, but in general we got a situation were there ere decreased tolerance towards same sex relationships, and genderqueer and transgender identity. (ie Japan before the Meiji era compared to Japan during and after the Meiji era. Which Meiji era itself having Western influenced, if much differently than many other cultures, and a lot of it's issues being an internal development)
The ancient Jewish religion itself became less tolerant of homosexuality, as noted how there is visible proof Leviticus was edited:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hWiW8eooF0 |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jul 2020 22:41:06 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 19:56:08
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| Just wanted to let you all know I'm finding this discussion fascinating, especially the detail on how Abrahamic faith genderized the world as binary. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 22:35:33
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I don't think anyone is arguing that ancient societies had their prejudices or were bigoted in some way to a group (or groups) of people. And yes, the term "homosexual" is a fairly recent term, being used from around the 1860s. While some ancient cultures may have recognized that some have a "preference" for their own sex (the Greeks did), "sexual orientation" did not come to be used as a description until much later. So using the term "homosexual" on ancient concepts of gender and sexuality certainly has it's flaws, but I myself am using it for simplicity's sake (even though it is anything but simple).
Many ancient cultures had some sort of "sexual taboo", and this often took the form of class differences. It is true that in societies like ancient Greece that being the male "passive" (usually younger) partner was demasculinizing, and there were "expectations" that were followed surrounding this (though it would also be erroneous to assume that they were strictly adhered to by "gay" or "bi" men). But, at the same time, same-sex love (between men) was celebrated and romanticized in stories (look at the Iliad). References to same-sex relations can be found depicted on vases, poetry, and stories not just in Greece, but in other ancient cultures, as well (not all, of course. The Aztecs were quite intolerant of same-sex relations). But in others, the relationships between men was idealized, even though men had their duty to procreate as well.
This is not to suggest that ancient societies were these homosexual paradises. But the idea of homosexuality in and of itself being "unnatural" or a "sin" was not always applicable, and certainly not in some non-Western cultures. Indeed, sexual morality itself has changed over the course of human history, and throughout cultures. Even within Abrahamic societies, there has been a fluctuation of attitudes towards same-sex relations, with early Middle Ages being more tolerant. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 22 Jul 2020 23:29:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 23:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Yes, there examples not connected to Abrahamic faiths, or even that European influence, but in general we got a situation were there ere decreased tolerance towards same sex relationships, and genderqueer and transgender identity. (ie Japan before the Meiji era compared to Japan during and after the Meiji era. Which Meiji era itself having Western influenced, if much differently than many other cultures, and a lot of it's issues being an internal development)
Yup, pre-Meiji era, homosexuality in Japan (at least male homosexuality) was fairly accepted, and in the Edo/Tokugawa period in particular, it was highly romanticized. The "love of the samurai" was more often directed towards a young man than it was a woman. Indeed, Wakashudo, the Way of Youth (it was considered a Way), was the love for young men. Cartographies of Desire by Gregory M. Pflugfelder, along with several works by Mark McLelland, go into this. They are fascinating reads. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 10:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
After reading the last two pages, this thread has gotten as interesting as it is disturbing and as of which should be moved out of the general FR chat as it seems to no longer have anything to do with the FR.
I meant the sociological observations to apply to the Forgotten Realms. As in, the absence of Abrahamic religions is not an adequate or accurate explanation for the canonical standards of sexual morality and gender relations in Faerun and it would be much more reasonable to search for explanations in cultural influence from elves, active shaping of society by one or more deities and the like.
Of course, Faerun is richer than medieval and probably even Renaissance Earth, so some of the explanation might have to do with that. Literacy is also much more common there. Basically, canon tells us that attitudes toward sex, gender and other things are a certain way, which is fine, but is also one more thing that reinforces how very wrong it would be to look at Faerun through some kind of medieval lens. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 23 Jul 2020 10:10:20 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 01:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't think anyone is arguing that ancient societies had their prejudices or were bigoted in some way to a group (or groups) of people. And yes, the term "homosexual" is a fairly recent term, being used from around the 1860s. While some ancient cultures may have recognized that some have a "preference" for their own sex (the Greeks did), "sexual orientation" did not come to be used as a description until much later. So using the term "homosexual" on ancient concepts of gender and sexuality certainly has it's flaws, but I myself am using it for simplicity's sake (even though it is anything but simple).
Many ancient cultures had some sort of "sexual taboo", and this often took the form of class differences. It is true that in societies like ancient Greece that being the male "passive" (usually younger) partner was demasculinizing, and there were "expectations" that were followed surrounding this (though it would also be erroneous to assume that they were strictly adhered to by "gay" or "bi" men). But, at the same time, same-sex love (between men) was celebrated and romanticized in stories (look at the Iliad). References to same-sex relations can be found depicted on vases, poetry, and stories not just in Greece, but in other ancient cultures, as well (not all, of course. The Aztecs were quite intolerant of same-sex relations). But in others, the relationships between men was idealized, even though men had their duty to procreate as well.
This is not to suggest that ancient societies were these homosexual paradises. But the idea of homosexuality in and of itself being "unnatural" or a "sin" was not always applicable, and certainly not in some non-Western cultures. Indeed, sexual morality itself has changed over the course of human history, and throughout cultures. Even within Abrahamic societies, there has been a fluctuation of attitudes towards same-sex relations, with early Middle Ages being more tolerant.
Yup, that's also what I meant.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Some ancient cultures accepted (or even celebrated) homosexuality--at least male homosexuality. I've studied this to some extent, as queer history is an area of interest to me. I'm no expert, and most of my focus has been on Japan, where, pre-Meiji era, male homosexuality was at times even celebrated. Same with places like ancient Greece. And there are many instances of "gender-bending" throughout history. I recommend the book Homosexuality and Civilization, if anyone is curious. A bit dated and sensationalist at times, but informative.
Sorry, just discovered this thread. I haven't read through the entire scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yup, pre-Meiji era, homosexuality in Japan (at least male homosexuality) was fairly accepted, and in the Edo/Tokugawa period in particular, it was highly romanticized. The "love of the samurai" was more often directed towards a young man than it was a woman. Indeed, Wakashudo, the Way of Youth (it was considered a Way), was the love for young men. Cartographies of Desire by Gregory M. Pflugfelder, along with several works by Mark McLelland, go into this. They are fascinating reads.
Thanks for the info, I'll check it out.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
After reading the last two pages, this thread has gotten as interesting as it is disturbing and as of which should be moved out of the general FR chat as it seems to no longer have anything to do with the FR.
Well, partly. Much of the stuff we discussed, can be used as inspiration in campaigns, including Forgotten Realms, and we also discussed how for long Seldarine members in general were presented as malleable in terms of gender, several members being so since their debut (Corellon Larethian, Hanali Celanil, and Labelas Enoreth).
I agree though we should limit (at least somewhat) real life examples as inspiration, and to explore in-Realms aspects of Queer culture. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 06:33:12
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| What do you think the odds are of a queer culture existing in Rashemen? I could easily see their genders being reinterpreted to be more than just a classic cis binary... |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 07:03:35
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Mod edit: Homophobic rant removed. Bigotry is NOT WELCOME in our halls.
-- Wooly Rupert |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jul 2020 15:59:12 |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
770 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 07:24:10
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CEV, this is the second time you've gone into full-on a****** meltdown on these forums.
The first time, you were warned and came crying and crawling back and making meaningless apologies. I sincerely hope you won't get a second opportunity. I can't speak for the ownership of these forums, but having read enough of Ed Greenwood's words over the years, I can sincerely say this: you and your views are anathema to the Realms and all the good things they stand for.
[ quoted content removed ]
Get out, stupid bigot.
EDIT
Removed two quoted bits to conform to Wooly's instructions.
And also because I don't want scribes thinking the two sentences I quoted were the sum total of what was a far lengthier and far more vitriolic rant.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 25 Jul 2020 18:11:12 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 07:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Mod edit: Homophobic rant removed. Bigotry is NOT WELCOME in our halls.
-- Wooly Rupert
My dude, Ed says in clear black and white that you’re wrong on this a few pages back. Chill it with this weird fragility. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jul 2020 15:59:59 |
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Topic |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
