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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 20:59:28
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According to the FRCS, 3% of the population in Unther in 1372 DR was composed of dwarves (and 2% of halflings). I'm assuming that in a slave-society that values Mulan purity, most of these would be slaves.
What would be their origins and subraces, though? What percentage are duergar from the Riders to the Sky? How many are gold dwarves? Are there shield dwarves?
And are there any settlements with a lot of dwarves, in Unther? Noble families known for favoring dwarf slaves, perhaps settling them in smith towns, where they manufacture high-quality tools and arms?
And what about Chessenta? A full five percent of Chessentans are dwarves. That's one in twenty! Or almost 200,000 dwarves!
How many of them are free and how many slaves? How do they break down by subrace? There's still duergar in the Riders to the Sky mountains, the Great Rift is there to the southeast and there's huge abandoned dwarvesn mines in the Akanapeaks.
Are the free Chessentan dwarves mostly rural or urban? Do they live segregated lives, in dwarves towns or neighbourhoods, or are they fully integrated into Chessentan society? Do they worship dwarven or Chessentan gods, speak their own language or that of the humans among they live?
Are there cities, towns or areas in Chessenta where dwarves are more common than elsewhere?
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Edited by - Icelander on 13 Aug 2020 21:01:16
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 22:07:29
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To my knowledge, there's nothing to support this information other than numbers in the 3e FRCS In Unther, so the following take is must my gut feel, and I'm sure you will have a different gut feel in some form from my own. I'd imagine that at least some portion of those numbers are working as intermediaries such as merchants for the dwarves in the great rift, but that might only account for 0.1-0.5% or so.
In Unther, I'd put the numbers coming split between the duergar and the Great Rift for the slaves, but not in the form of captured slaves. Perhaps they have a sizable population of dwarven slaves BRED into slavery over generations. To note, Unther may even trade slaves with the Duergar, with Unther being willing to give them slaves that are useless to them (such as some goblinoids, etc...) in return for their own citizens or humans from surrounding cultures.
In Chessenta I'd very much go in another direction. Mercenaries, merchants, skilled engineers and laborers. Old Empires notes most to be mercenaries, and a lot may be in Mordulkin as its notedly "cosmopolitan" and has a lot of guilds related to crafting, etc... I'd imagine most dwarves are following their racial gods. I'd imagine few to be duergar, and the duergar that do show up here may be on slave runs or seeking a fight with regular dwarves. They might seek out fights with the flaming spike tribe of orcs (and they may seek to recover the old dwarven mines that they occupy).
From Old Empires pages 50 and 51
The peoples of Chessenta are of many races: common humans are the Mulani (Unther/Mulhorand), Turami (Turmish), Rashemi (Rashemen), and Amnite (Amn); there are also more than a few elves, half-elves, half-orcs, orcs, dwarves, and halflings mixed in the cities. Airspur and Mordulkin are particularly well-known for their cosmopolitan mix of races.
The second source of demihumans in Chessenta are the mercenaries. While all of the peoples of the Old Empires share a congenital wariness of and unease with all things elven, half-elves are considered to be fully human and are rarely the object of discrimination. Dwarves are also commonly found in mercenary companies, though southern dwarves consider Chessenta to still be part of Unther and thus an enemy. "Even the most drunken dwarf never forgets, even when he does not remember correctly" is a common (if unfair) saying in Chessenta.
Just to note some population differences, but to note most populations were increased 20%
Luthcheq in Old empire 50k, 3e frcs 61k
akanax in OE 20k +50k surrounding, 3e frcs 24k
Soorenar in OE not noted, 3e frcs 74k
Cimbar in OE not noted, 3e frcs 110k
Mordulkin in OE 35k, 3e frcs not noted |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Aug 2020 22:24:13 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 23:29:10
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Well, I had to research into that for my Tymanther campaign, so:
For the dwarves in Unther, it seems there are a few gold dwarf settlements in the Smoking Mountains. It seems these dwarves were free people that came from the Great Rift, miners there prospecting gold and other precious ore, though they had to deal with the dragon population of the area (Unther has a surprisingly large population of dragons, as well).
As for the halflings, they were ghostwise living in the Methwood.
I guess that any individual of these peoples who left their secluded hometowns, would get either enslaved or killed by Gilgeam and his lackeys, or the Mulhorandi post-Gilgeam's death. Obviously, their luck improved a lot by the time of the more open dragonborn. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2020 23:37:40 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 23:33:40
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Some settlements of dwarves hidden in the Smoking Mountains and Ghostwide halflings in the Methwood sound like a few thousands at most.
Unther had around 130,000 dwarves and 80,000 halflings in 1372 DR. It's most probable that the vast majority of both were slaves, probably more valued and expensive slaves than most human ones. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2020 : 23:39:03
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| As for Chessenta, I remember the Chessentans hate dwarves (at least, by 1479 DR). In the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, the dwarf protagonist is discriminated for being an "earth sorcerer", because all the people in Luthcheq believed all dwarves had magical powers related to earth. However, this is in the time of the Karanok's ruled Chessenta (4e era). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 00:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Chessenta, I remember the Chessentans hate dwarves (at least, by 1479 DR). In the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, the dwarf protagonist is discriminated for being an "earth sorcerer", because all the people in Luthcheq believed all dwarves had magical powers related to earth. However, this is in the time of the Karanok's ruled Chessenta (4e era).
Well, I'm in 1373 DR and Chessenta has almost 200,000 dwarves, so the average citizen is probably as familiar with them as anyone in the US is with Asian-Americans. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 00:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for Chessenta, I remember the Chessentans hate dwarves (at least, by 1479 DR). In the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels, the dwarf protagonist is discriminated for being an "earth sorcerer", because all the people in Luthcheq believed all dwarves had magical powers related to earth. However, this is in the time of the Karanok's ruled Chessenta (4e era).
That was entirely local to Luthcheq. It was a DECIDEDLY unfriendly to non-humans and spellcasters area. This was a huge difference between it and its relatively nearby neighbor in Mordulkin. The rest of Chessenta pretty much had no problem with dwarves or even half-orcs (and half-elves were treated as full human), though dwarves had long memories and didn't trust them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 01:20:50
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I cannot say if it was just Luthcheq or not, as Khouryn never went to Soolabax or Mordulkin (the other Chessentans cities visited in the novels). However, the Backdrop: Chessenta article mention this as something that happens in all of Chessenta.
Just, keep in mind that the Chessenta of 4e is a unified country, not the independent city-states of other editions. So, I guess the Luthcheq PoV was quite widespread during the Karanoks' reing. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 05:05:45
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Regarding Unther, to quote FR10 Old Empires:
P.10
quote:
The dwarves . . . have a historic enmity against Unther, due to the wars two millennia ago. The adage about dwarves never forgetting or forgiving a wrong done to them is especially true when it concerns the dwarves of the Great Rift.
P.35
quote:
The upper classes of Unther consist almost entirely of Mulans, descendants of the lords of all. They have bred almost exclusively within their own families and claim to be "pure" Mulan (as opposed to those of Mulhorand). The middle classes of Unther consist of merchants and freeholders, whose forefathers were originally traders from many lands; they are always human, but vary greatly in racial type. The lower classes are either poorly paid servants of freeholders or slaves. These can be of any race -- human, demihuman, or even humanoid (enslaved ogres are sometimes used to construct buildings).
So, dwarves in Unther in 1372 DR are most likely slaves.
As far as Chessenta, in 2e the anti-demihuman racism was limited to Luthcheq, ruled by the Karanok family, so it would be similarly limited in 1372 DR. However, the 4e uniter of Chessenta was Ishual Karanok in 1399 DR, whose family then maintained rule, so an imposition of that family-and-city's traditional hatred of arcane magic, elves, and dwarves is predictable. In 5e, Chessenta's no longer united anymore, and it's likely that those attitudes have been reversed everywhere outside of Luthcheq as part of the locals' reassertion of independence (ICly) and the reversion of 4e changes (OOCly). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 08:08:37
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Regarding Unther, to quote FR10 Old Empires:
P.10
quote:
The dwarves . . . have a historic enmity against Unther, due to the wars two millennia ago. The adage about dwarves never forgetting or forgiving a wrong done to them is especially true when it concerns the dwarves of the Great Rift.
P.35
quote:
The upper classes of Unther consist almost entirely of Mulans, descendants of the lords of all. They have bred almost exclusively within their own families and claim to be "pure" Mulan (as opposed to those of Mulhorand). The middle classes of Unther consist of merchants and freeholders, whose forefathers were originally traders from many lands; they are always human, but vary greatly in racial type. The lower classes are either poorly paid servants of freeholders or slaves. These can be of any race -- human, demihuman, or even humanoid (enslaved ogres are sometimes used to construct buildings).
So, dwarves in Unther in 1372 DR are most likely slaves.
Agreed.
Probably originally seized in wars prosecuted by Unther against Gold Dwarves of the South, in various halls and mines defeated by Unther and then against the Great Rift, which maintained their independence. Now, probably, born into slavery and most of them have done so for the past 2,000 years, meaning it's unlikely such dwarves born into Untheri slavery would retain a language or religion of their own.
quote:
Originally posted by see
As far as Chessenta, in 2e the anti-demihuman racism was limited to Luthcheq, ruled by the Karanok family, so it would be similarly limited in 1372 DR.
I agree. I'd have it be concentrated in areas controlled or influenced by Luthcheq, though I note that novels set in Chessenta have featured rural, backwoods people with bigotee views toward all magic and anyone too different from the local extended family of humans. Probbly representative of rural people in many locactions, really, strangers and anything outside their experience are things to be wary of, if not more.
quote:
Originally posted by see
However, the 4e uniter of Chessenta was Ishual Karanok in 1399 DR, whose family then maintained rule, so an imposition of that family-and-city's traditional hatred of arcane magic, elves, and dwarves is predictable. In 5e, Chessenta's no longer united anymore, and it's likely that those attitudes have been reversed everywhere outside of Luthcheq as part of the locals' reassertion of independence (ICly) and the reversion of 4e changes (OOCly).
Distant future, unlikely to ever become relevant to my campaign where the current date is edging into summer of 1373 DR. Indeed, butterfly effects and all that, with everything the PCs have chanced in sixteen real life years of gaming, I can't imagine that the future of their timeline in the Realms will be identical to the published one.
For one thing, the PCs form part of an uneasy military allegiance of factions that rules 'Free Unther' from the River of Metals down tothe siege lines around Unthalass, with privateers and cavalry raiders harrying Mulhorandi garrisons even further south (and into Mulhorand) to ruin their logistics, free their slaves and break their wills for a war of conquest. So, the end of the Mulhorand-Unther War / Great Patriotic War / Untheric Crusade bids fair to be different in our campaign than the official Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 09:33:26
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Here's my idea how the almost 200,000 dwarves in Chessenta might break down:
Urban dwarf populations
Akanax: 2,000 dwarves, mostly slave smiths
Cimbar: 10,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Soorenar: 7,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Airspur: 3,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Luthcheq: N/A
Mordulkin: 7,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Rural dwarf populations
The Akanul: 50,000 dwarves, farmers and craftsmen
The Maerwatch / Hills of Maerth: 15,000 dwarves, miners, farmers, shepherds, stockmen and craftsmen
Akanapeaks: 2,000 gold dwarves, living in small clanholds
The Riders to the Sky: 2,000 duergar, living in their own settlements
Adder Peaks: 1,000 gold dwarves, living in their own holds
The remaining 80,0000+ dwarves in Chessenta are spread through the rural human population, living, farming or crafting on freeholds, in villages or towns, in the hinterlands of one of the cities or even far from the influence of any of them.
Few, if any live in the hinterlands of Luthcheq or any of its allied towns, and dwarves are almost as uncommon in the hinterlands of Akanax, although some towns near the Adder Swamp have a few hundred dwarves each.
In the hinterlands of Cimbar and Soorenar, there is the normal concentration of about one dwarf for every twenty people. The agricultural land that feeds Airspur and Mordulkin is home to a slightly higher proportion of dwarves, perhaps one in fifteen, often working as blacksmiths, miners, masons or craftsmen of some kinds, but some of them own farms as well.
In general, dwarves that are part of Chessentan society, not members of an independent dwarven hold, are more likely than humans to live in cities, towns or villages than they are to live on a farm. Dwarves are a well-to-do minority in most of Chessenta and represent a part of the prosperous middle-class. Those rural dwarves who do live on a farm nearly invariably own it as a freehold. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 14 Aug 2020 10:02:06 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 10:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Probably originally seized in wars prosecuted by Unther against Gold Dwarves of the South, in various halls and mines defeated by Unther and then against the Great Rift, which maintained their independence. Now, probably, born into slavery and most of them have done so for the past 2,000 years, meaning it's unlikely such dwarves born into Untheri slavery would retain a language or religion of their own.
Given those assumptions, my thoughts are:
1) A lot of them, after 2,000 years, are likely going to be half-dwarves, which, per FR11 Dwarves Deep:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. . . . "Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pure-blood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pure-blood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.
Presumably the "head taller" means in the case of dwarf-human crosses, as amusing as the idea that "halfling blood makes dwarves taller" might be.
2) That dwarves are still enslaved by Unther in fairly large numbers is a much better reason for active dwarven enmity than a war 2,000 years ago.
3) While the language is likely dead among them, religion is probably less so. The Morndinsamman are likely to have some interest in a population of 130,000 or so dwarves, and they have the power to send signs, portents, visions, and dreams. An underground faith, with a lot of "What good are they?" scoffing from skeptical fellow dwarves, sure. But also likely the nucleus of any dwarven resistance or Underground Railroad. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 13:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Slaves in Unther do not appear to last long. I get the impression that slaves are of almost no value and while they are not deliberately worked to death like in Thay, their health and wellbeing is not considered unless they have an essential skill.
That's economically unlikely. Considerations of humanity aside, a healthy adult slave without any rare special skills is still probably an investment equivalent to something between a tractor or a new machine to milk the cows for a modern farm.
Only the very richest courtiers, nobles and priests in Unther could theoretically afford to care nothing about the lives and health of their slaves, but practically speaking, most rich people would waste their fortunes in only a few years (and certainly within a generation or two) if they made it a habit to carelessly ruin such expensive tools. There are people in the real world who could afford to crash their cars instead of parking them, but very few people who are that rich consistently work to throw away their money for no purpose.
For most Untheri farmers wealth enough to have their own land and a slave to work it, a single slave will be the most expensive possession they own. Indeed, in the Hellenic and Roman societies around Earth's Mediterranean, similar in some ways to the Inner Sea, owning a slave was the difference between being an unimportant nobody and being someone, even if not a very rich someone.
99% of freeborn people in Unther might not afford their slaves autonomy or respect them as people with full rights, spirit and feelings, but they are acutely aware of their health, just like a poor peasant with a single cow will watch its health very carefully. Even fairly rich country nobles still only have a few slaves and those slaves are a great part of their capital assets.
Slaves are only ever cheap if a society is in the middle of a war of conquest and is consistently winning battles which result in a lot of captives (more than the economy can really find jobs for), both warriors taken in the field and women and children taken when they no longer have anyone to protect them. And Unther hasn't won a war of conquest in a millennium.
Under more normal circumstances, slaves might be worth 50-100 gp. This is deceptive, though, because this is the price at source for a slave taken in a raid or sold into slavery by a perfidious relative or treacherous business partner. It doesn't account for transport costs, wastage on the way, the risk of rebellion, training costs and the risk that the slave will simply be more trouble than they are worth. That's basically the price for someone who might make a slave, but at the moment, is more of a speculative investment.
If you want to calculate a price for a more typical born slave, subtract the cost of feeding, housing, training and keeping them until they reach a productive age from their value as a capital asset. Their value as a capital asset is how much value they add beyond operating costs over their projected lifetime. Usually, that means the salary that someone with the skills of the slave could get minus the cost of keeping them, for a period that you estimate that the average slave will work effectively.
For young adults with some element of risk (undisclosed health problems, unforeseen psychological issues, etc.), I generally use (Yearly Salary if a Free Man - Yearly Cost of Living as a Slave) x 5, which already accounts for the cost of getting the slave to that age and proficiency. This is somewhat arbitrary, but it fairly accurately reflects the price of slaves during periods of more or less peace in Roman times.
Locally-bred slaves in Unther will be worth a minimum of 120 gp for a healthy adult* with no exceptional skill, simply someone capable of being a household drudge, farmhand, labourer or something simple. This assumes an adult who grew up a slave and therefore statistically extremely unlikely to revolt and not really requiring much supervision beyond what a similar free man would.
The more valuable their skill set and the healthier, more reliable and more biddable they are, the more a slave is worth. Slaves who could work as high-class servants, sought-after prostitutes or journeymen craftsmen will be worth 300-3,000 gp, depending on how valuable their skill set, appearance, health and personality is. An enslaved master smith is easily worth 5,000-7,000 gp.
All this is assuming someone adult at around age 15, who is likely to live to around age 65-70 if they survive childhood and various diseases, but who are unlikely to be good workers much after 60 and might be broken in body or have lost the features which makes them valuable much earlier. Dwarves, being much longer lived, tougher and less likely to die young, have an effective working lifetime that is many, many times longer. Yet they mature physically at about the same rate as humans.
So, instead of the arbitrary five years used to figure out the value of a human slave, I'd use around twenty-five years for dwarven slaves. This means that a dwarven slave who hasn't revolted or decided to die will be worth around 500 gp at the absolute minimum and more probably, something between 2,500 gp to 25,000 gp (for a robustly healthy and strong dwarven smith, skilled enough to be a master craftsman, who is born into slavery and seems content to work in his forge all day for the benefit of his master).
Sure, villains can mistreat their dwarven slaves, but it would be a display not only of cruelty, but of the kind of casual carelessness toward material possessions that would make a billionaire in the real world sink his own luxury yacht because he he got seasick in it. Or more accurately, someone burning all their stock in a profitable company, because owning a valuable slave content to work diligently is an investment that yields profits as long as the slave lives.
*Children are obviously cheaper. Below the age of two, human slave children have a negative value, as they require care and feeding, but few of them even survive to become workers. Human toddlers might be worth a few coins as a speculative investment, especially if their parents were good slaves or had desirable qualities, but if you need an average price by age (to be modified by various qualities), use the following:
Age 3 = 3 gp
Age 4 = 5 gp
Age 5 = 7 gp
Age 6 = 10 gp
Age 7 = 15 gp
Age 8 = 20 gp
Age 9 = 25 gp
Age 9 = 30 gp
Age 10 = 40 gp
Age 11 = 50 gp
Age 12 = 60 gp
Age 13 = 75 gp
Age 14 = 90 gp
Age 15 = 100 gp
This assumes a home-bred slave child. For a captured one, use the value for an adult captive and multiply it by the gp value for the child's age as a fraction of 100, i.e. a six-year-old human child captured in a slave raid is (10/100 * 50-100 gp) is worth around 5-10 gp.
As a rule of thumb, adult dwarven slaves will be worth five times what an otherwise equivalent human slave would be. This means that even dwarven infants and toddlers might be worth a speculative investment, as if you can successfully raise them into steady workers, they'll keep producing for your children's children's children (for 300+ years).
Note that because dwarven adults are so much more valuable than human adults, but they don't take longer to mature or require wildly different feeding, one can't simply multiply the cost of a human child to find the price of a dwarf of the same age. They'll probably cost 200+ gp at birth and their value will rise fairly gradually to the 500+ gp they are worth at age 15+. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 16 Aug 2020 01:29:20 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 13:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Given those assumptions, my thoughts are:
1) A lot of them, after 2,000 years, are likely going to be half-dwarves, which, per FR11 Dwarves Deep:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. . . . "Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pure-blood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
If halfbloods mate with pureblood dwarves, the offspring will be a pure-blood. If halfbloods mate with another halfblood or a nondwarf, the offspring will be a halfblood.
Presumably the "head taller" means in the case of dwarf-human crosses, as amusing as the idea that "halfling blood makes dwarves taller" might be.
Well, I'm going to set forth a few precepts that I believe affect this:
a) Dwarves live about five times longer than humans and can work hard until age 300 at least.
b) Dwarves are healthier and more robust than humans.
c) Slaves generate more profit the healthier they are and the longer they can perform effective work for their owner.
d) Only heterosexual mating with slaves can result in offspring.
e) Children born to free Untheri women are not slaves and there is likely to be a taboo or at least social distaste for free women who have children with slaves.
f) Male dwarves might be attractive to human females attracted to male secondary sexual characteristics, but female dwarves do not usually conform to typical human standards of attractiveness for women.
From these precepts, we might gather that the demand for dwarves as concubines is not likely to be high, but the demand for them as skilled workers is. After all, if you teach a human slave a skilled trade, you might get fifty years of good work, if you're lucky. A dwarf will get you 250-300 years of good work for a similar investment.
However, if you dilute the dwarf blood too much, you'll reduce their valuable qualities. Therefore, you'll want your best dwarven studs covering the dwarf dams, but want to avoid breeding the dams with humans. And few enough dwarven dams will be pregnant from concubinage, there being much cheaper slaves that better fit Untheri standards of female beauty available for that role.
What you might see, however, are dwarven males put to stud among slave human females. This results in the birth of more dwarves, in the first generation, but gradually will just introduce some dwarven blood into the human slave stock, making them slightly more robust, healthy and longer-lived.
These slaves will still count as 'human' in the demographics listed for Unther, of course, but will have some partial dwarven blood. Those listed as 'dwarven' will be 50% or more dwarves by genetic heritage, but a fairly high percentage is likely to be pureblooded dwarf, for much the same reason that you don't find racehorses kept by rich people breeding with cheap nags.
quote:
Originally posted by see
2) That dwarves are still enslaved by Unther in fairly large numbers is a much better reason for active dwarven enmity than a war 2,000 years ago.
Indeed so.
quote:
Originally posted by see
3) While the language is likely dead among them, religion is probably less so. The Morndinsamman are likely to have some interest in a population of 130,000 or so dwarves, and they have the power to send signs, portents, visions, and dreams. An underground faith, with a lot of "What good are they?" scoffing from skeptical fellow dwarves, sure. But also likely the nucleus of any dwarven resistance or Underground Railroad.
Fair enough, of course.
Just that the average dwarven slave will have 10+ generations of ancestors born in Unther and thus unlikely to have even heard any reliable tales about dwarven society. They might not all worship Gilgeam, but it's likely enough that the majority of dwarven slaves seek comfort in the same sort of religions as their fellow slaves, who are 'Tethens', i.e. humans of various western and northern stock.
Dwarven blood or not and slave or not, someone with ten generations of ancestors born into Untheri society is culturally Untheri. All the dwarves in Unther who'd rather die than give up their heritage, pride, religion and identity have all died millennia ago.
We aren't talking about a few generations of slavery. We're talking about a period longer than from Roman Judea to our time, for most of them. Maybe some of them have only had ancestors in slavery for a thousand years, but most of the ancestors of the dwarves now in Unther will have been enslaved at some point in the first thousand years of Untheri history, meaning 2,000-3,000 years before the current time.
As slaves in Unther, these dwarves have a history not only longer than the history of the United States, but actually longer than the history of England. Their ancestors have been slaves for longer than there has been anything like an English language or Anglo-Saxon culture.
Mind you, of course, the counterpoint to this would be... 'Next Year in Jerusalem' and the modern state of Israel. So, I suppose it's a matter of how Jewish we want our Untheri dwarves. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 14 Aug 2020 13:58:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 14:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Here's my idea how the almost 200,000 dwarves in Chessenta might break down:
Urban dwarf populations
Akanax: 2,000 dwarves, mostly slave smiths
Cimbar: 10,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Soorenar: 7,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Airspur: 3,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Luthcheq: N/A
Mordulkin: 7,000 dwarves, mostly free master craftsmen
Rural dwarf populations
The Akanul: 50,000 dwarves, farmers and craftsmen
The Maerwatch / Hills of Maerth: 15,000 dwarves, miners, farmers, shepherds, stockmen and craftsmen
Akanapeaks: 2,000 gold dwarves, living in small clanholds
The Riders to the Sky: 2,000 duergar, living in their own settlements
Adder Peaks: 1,000 gold dwarves, living in their own holds
The remaining 80,0000+ dwarves in Chessenta are spread through the rural human population, living, farming or crafting on freeholds, in villages or towns, in the hinterlands of one of the cities or even far from the influence of any of them.
Few, if any live in the hinterlands of Luthcheq or any of its allied towns, and dwarves are almost as uncommon in the hinterlands of Akanax, although some towns near the Adder Swamp have a few hundred dwarves each.
In the hinterlands of Cimbar and Soorenar, there is the normal concentration of about one dwarf for every twenty people. The agricultural land that feeds Airspur and Mordulkin is home to a slightly higher proportion of dwarves, perhaps one in fifteen, often working as blacksmiths, miners, masons or craftsmen of some kinds, but some of them own farms as well.
In general, dwarves that are part of Chessentan society, not members of an independent dwarven hold, are more likely than humans to live in cities, towns or villages than they are to live on a farm. Dwarves are a well-to-do minority in most of Chessenta and represent a part of the prosperous middle-class. Those rural dwarves who do live on a farm nearly invariably own it as a freehold.
Don't forget, its documented that a large proportion of the demihumans of Chessenta are mercenaries, and that dwarves are called out as the specific example there. Thus, I'd take that 80,000 number that you mention as randomly spread and make 55,000 of them mercenaries and/or adventurers. That would make about 1/3rd of all the dwarves in country mercenaries or adventurers, and 2/3rd something else. Some of these groups may not be mercs for the city states either, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a great rift dwarven company of a few thousand with an encampment that raids the riders to the sky duergar OR the Flaming Spike orcs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 14:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Don't forget, its documented that a large proportion of the demihumans of Chessenta are mercenaries, and that dwarves are called out as the specific example there. Thus, I'd take that 80,000 number that you mention as randomly spread and make 55,000 of them mercenaries and/or adventurers. That would make about 1/3rd of all the dwarves in country mercenaries or adventurers, and 2/3rd something else. Some of these groups may not be mercs for the city states either, and I wouldn't be surprised to find a great rift dwarven company of a few thousand with an encampment that raids the riders to the sky duergar OR the Flaming Spike orcs.
Well, on Earth, about 98-99% of people in a medieval country were farmers. The Realms have magic, are much wealthier and effectively about a late Renaissance level of economic infrastructure, moving into Early Modern. That's still 90% of people who just produce food.
It's considered pretty high for 1% of a historical population to make their living as professional warriors. If 10% of a population are professional warriors, outsiders would probably say that 'all' of them are, because that's the most visible group of people.
So, we can have huge numbers of dwarves, proportionally, working as mercenaries, without having them be that many, necessarily. That being said, mercenaries tend to live in cities or near them, so you can consider 5-10% of the populations given as professional warriors.
In Airspur, for example, I imagine that most able-bodied dwarves serve as militia in the city, aside from any other career they have. In fact, in any city, town or other area where dwarves are not distrusted, I imagine that this holds true. Some of those dwarves will become mercenaries, as many human Chessentans do after serving their time in armour for their city. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 14 Aug 2020 14:13:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 14:34:31
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On some of the discussions I see above, I'll throw in my thoughts rather than respond to each
dwarven slaves will be treated well. Its economically feasible to treat a long lived race with skilled craftsman capabilities well. Your family down to your 10th generation of grandchildren or so might benefit from a dwarven slave. For that matter, since many Untheric people's might know this dwarven slave all their life, they may even develop a level of respect for them. Some families might even let them offer insight on issues, but only when asked. They may not want to be thought of like the Imaskari, and thus they may allow them to worship their own gods even (more the craftsmen side or home/hearth gods than war gods). Maybe they don't allow them temples, etc... but carving a symbol from wood or casting one from metal wouldn't necessarily be punished. Teaching their religion outside the dwarven community though might be punished.
As to half-breeds, I agree, the Mulan people don't even propose human to human breeding outside Mulan ethnicities. Half-dwarves might exist, but they'd be a private shame, and sadly might even get killed as a message to maintain purity. The only possibility I might see would be non-Mulan human slave females being bred to a dwarf male, which also fits Icelander's premise. If this were to occur, I would propose that it happens more with duergar stock males, for the women are not likely to be in love, and thus this would be an act of rape (yes, horrible). I can see evil duergar slaves having less of a problem with this than the more noble shield and gold dwarves. This might prove interesting if these half-dwarves show any psionic capability, such as telepathic capability, or an ability to enlarge or reduce themselves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 14:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On some of the discussions I see above, I'll throw in my thoughts rather than respond to each
dwarven slaves will be treated well. Its economically feasible to treat a long lived race with skilled craftsman capabilities well. Your family down to your 10th generation of grandchildren or so might benefit from a dwarven slave. For that matter, since many Untheric people's might know this dwarven slave all their life, they may even develop a level of respect for them. Some families might even let them offer insight on issues, but only when asked.
Sounds fair enough.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
They may not want to be thought of like the Imaskari, and thus they may allow them to worship their own gods even (more the craftsmen side or home/hearth gods than war gods). Maybe they don't allow them temples, etc... but carving a symbol from wood or casting one from metal wouldn't necessarily be punished. Teaching their religion outside the dwarven community though might be punished.
Alternatively, because the Untheri remember well what happens when slaves are allowed to worship deities that desire nothing more than their revolt and freedom, preaching about dwarven religion might be one of the most serious offenses that an Untheri slave can commit.
The Untheri takeaway from their experience under the Imaskari wasn't that slavery was wrong, but that enslaving Mulan people was wrong and that their deities were stronger than the Imaskari Lord Artificers.
I'm pretty sure Gilgeam would rather not have to fight Clangeddin Silverbeard or Moradin Soulforger, so I can imagine that his priests watch pretty hard to prevent any underground worship of the Morndisamman. Let the slaves worship deities that don't encourage them to be a separate, free people, but just accept their place.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The only possibility I might see would be non-Mulan human slave females being bred to a dwarf male, which also fits Icelander's premise. If this were to occur, I would propose that it happens more with duergar stock males, for the women are not likely to be in love, and thus this would be an act of rape (yes, horrible).
Most people, at some point in their lives, want intimacy, relationships, sexual release and even, sometimes, children. There's no pressing need to have your dwarven slaves rape female slaves, just arrange mating between them and any willing females. It's no different than arranged marriages.
Remember, slaves have lives. No decision they make is truly without coercion, which might lead you to consider everything done to them rape, but to the slaves, there are noticeable differences between masters and they form attachments, raise children and experience themselves as part of families.
So, regardless of whether the slaves are in love or not (and sometimes, they will be), not that many of them will actively object to mating with other healthy, young slaves of good stock. After all, it's their only chance for intimacy, sex, love, family and all those other things that people tend to want.
And even if a given slave wants none of those things, sexual availability is part of their duties. Why would they pick the time that they're mated with another slave to object, instead of any of the thousands of times their owner has used them sexually? So, it would be an exception if slaves put out to stud were even aware that their mates were not willing.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can see evil duergar slaves having less of a problem with this than the more noble shield and gold dwarves. This might prove interesting if these half-dwarves show any psionic capability, such as telepathic capability, or an ability to enlarge or reduce themselves.
Dwarven slaves would all be raised Untheri and unless you believe nobility of character is inherited like hair colour, independent of culture or upbringing, it's unlikely that there would be much difference between them. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 14 Aug 2020 15:00:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 17:11:18
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on the slave breeding, bear in mind that dwarven slaves may get bred in captivity, but even as you yourself indicate, it will likely be only full dwarf to occasional human breeding. Never a next generation. I'd further add to this that EVENTUALLY I would expect most dwarves to escape rather than them being captured and kept in slavery for hundreds of years. Now, it might take them 50 to 200 years to do so, but eventually I'd expect them to find some means to either escape or die in the attempt. When they do, I'd expect them to take offspring or other dwarves with them. That being said, I'd still expect that most dwarven slaves in Unther are still offspring, but they likely have a parent or two available that knows what it is to be free, and said parent also likely gives them the life lessons that make them "dwarven" and not "untheri". I believe dwarves would die before breaking as easily as humans. This also means that most of the offspring slaves likely are escaping before they themselves reach adulthood. Thus, I see captured gold and shield dwarf slaves to not be broken, and I also see duergar slaves actually having no problem creating half-breeds. I bet a lot of the conflict between the great rift and Unther revolves around dwarves coming north and freeing dwarven slaves as well, to this day. Many of the dwarven mercenary companies in Chessenta may actually be waiting for just such an opportunity.
I say all this, and I know you may disagree, but honestly while the Untheri are slave takers, I don't think they can truly stand up to dwarven resilience long term. The dwarves have a bit of luxury of being able to watch their masters age and bide their time a bit. They can earn the trust of a young Untheri, and then years later trick them into doing something stupid. The Untheri have the numbers to capture dwarves, but not necessarily the capability to KEEP them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 17:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
on the slave breeding, bear in mind that dwarven slaves may get bred in captivity, but even as you yourself indicate, it will likely be only full dwarf to occasional human breeding. Never a next generation. I'd further add to this that EVENTUALLY I would expect most dwarves to escape rather than them being captured and kept in slavery for hundreds of years. Now, it might take them 50 to 200 years to do so, but eventually I'd expect them to find some means to either escape or die in the attempt. When they do, I'd expect them to take offspring or other dwarves with them. That being said, I'd still expect that most dwarven slaves in Unther are still offspring, but they likely have a parent or two available that knows what it is to be free, and said parent also likely gives them the life lessons that make them "dwarven" and not "untheri". I believe dwarves would die before breaking as easily as humans. This also means that most of the offspring slaves likely are escaping before they themselves reach adulthood. Thus, I see captured gold and shield dwarf slaves to not be broken, and I also see duergar slaves actually having no problem creating half-breeds. I bet a lot of the conflict between the great rift and Unther revolves around dwarves coming north and freeing dwarven slaves as well, to this day. Many of the dwarven mercenary companies in Chessenta may actually be waiting for just such an opportunity.
I say all this, and I know you may disagree, but honestly while the Untheri are slave takers, I don't think they can truly stand up to dwarven resilience long term. The dwarves have a bit of luxury of being able to watch their masters age and bide their time a bit. They can earn the trust of a young Untheri, and then years later trick them into doing something stupid. The Untheri have the numbers to capture dwarves, but not necessarily the capability to KEEP them.
I disagree.
The only wars in which the Untheri are likely to have taken dwarven slaves took place 1,000-3,000 years ago. That's long enough for none of the dwarven slaves in Unther now to have known anyone who remembered the Great Rift or any fallen holds they came from.
Unther hasn't gone to war outside their country in centuries, almost a millennia. And they've lost all wars they've fought in the past thousand years. They didn't take 130,000 dwarven slaves in recent generations or even recent centuries. There's no reasonable interpretation of these numbers other than the vast majority of them are simply native-born Untheri slaves who happen to be of dwarven origin, but haven't been in contact with dwarven culture in thousands of years. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 17:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Distant future, unlikely to ever become relevant to my campaign where the current date is edging into summer of 1373 DR. Indeed, butterfly effects and all that, with everything the PCs have chanced in sixteen real life years of gaming, I can't imagine that the future of their timeline in the Realms will be identical to the published one.
For one thing, the PCs form part of an uneasy military allegiance of factions that rules 'Free Unther' from the River of Metals down tothe siege lines around Unthalass, with privateers and cavalry raiders harrying Mulhorandi garrisons even further south (and into Mulhorand) to ruin their logistics, free their slaves and break their wills for a war of conquest. So, the end of the Mulhorand-Unther War / Great Patriotic War / Untheric Crusade bids fair to be different in our campaign than the official Realms.
I'm aware of this. However, there is so little info of this area in 3e, that I guess you can extrapolate the info the was given in 4e, even if you never play "in the future".
As for "half-dwarves", I was under the assumption that the muls (half-human, half-dwarf) are better suited to be slaves because of their physical attributes and such. Yeah, I know they are a Dark Sun thing, but they later got "exported" to core and their backstory was just that: drow creating them to be better slaves than humans.
So, if you want, you can export them to FR as well. I can picture someone as heartless as Gilgeam doing something like that. Or his priesthood... of course, all these muls will not have an inch of mulan blood. Perish the thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I'm pretty sure Gilgeam would rather not have to fight Clangeddin Silverbeard or Moradin Soulforger, so I can imagine that his priests watch pretty hard to prevent any underground worship of the Morndisamman. Let the slaves worship deities that don't encourage them to be a separate, free people, but just accept their place.
Now, I have this mad theory about Moradin ripping away Tymanchebar from Laerakond and sent it like a boulder over Unther during the Spellplague, to ensure the freedom of his dwarves. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 18:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for "half-dwarves", I was under the assumption that the muls (half-human, half-dwarf) are better suited to be slaves because of their physical attributes and such. Yeah, I know they are a Dark Sun thing, but they later got "exported" to core and their backstory was just that: drow creating them to be better slaves than humans.
Ed wrote about half-dwarves in Dwarves Deep, which predated Dark Sun by about a year. Half-dwarves in the Realms have nothing in common with muls.
From page 6 of that source:
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Aug 2020 18:22:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2020 : 18:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
on the slave breeding, bear in mind that dwarven slaves may get bred in captivity, but even as you yourself indicate, it will likely be only full dwarf to occasional human breeding. Never a next generation. I'd further add to this that EVENTUALLY I would expect most dwarves to escape rather than them being captured and kept in slavery for hundreds of years. Now, it might take them 50 to 200 years to do so, but eventually I'd expect them to find some means to either escape or die in the attempt. When they do, I'd expect them to take offspring or other dwarves with them. That being said, I'd still expect that most dwarven slaves in Unther are still offspring, but they likely have a parent or two available that knows what it is to be free, and said parent also likely gives them the life lessons that make them "dwarven" and not "untheri". I believe dwarves would die before breaking as easily as humans. This also means that most of the offspring slaves likely are escaping before they themselves reach adulthood. Thus, I see captured gold and shield dwarf slaves to not be broken, and I also see duergar slaves actually having no problem creating half-breeds. I bet a lot of the conflict between the great rift and Unther revolves around dwarves coming north and freeing dwarven slaves as well, to this day. Many of the dwarven mercenary companies in Chessenta may actually be waiting for just such an opportunity.
I say all this, and I know you may disagree, but honestly while the Untheri are slave takers, I don't think they can truly stand up to dwarven resilience long term. The dwarves have a bit of luxury of being able to watch their masters age and bide their time a bit. They can earn the trust of a young Untheri, and then years later trick them into doing something stupid. The Untheri have the numbers to capture dwarves, but not necessarily the capability to KEEP them.
I disagree.
The only wars in which the Untheri are likely to have taken dwarven slaves took place 1,000-3,000 years ago. That's long enough for none of the dwarven slaves in Unther now to have known anyone who remembered the Great Rift or any fallen holds they came from.
Unther hasn't gone to war outside their country in centuries, almost a millennia. And they've lost all wars they've fought in the past thousand years. They didn't take 130,000 dwarven slaves in recent generations or even recent centuries. There's no reasonable interpretation of these numbers other than the vast majority of them are simply native-born Untheri slaves who happen to be of dwarven origin, but haven't been in contact with dwarven culture in thousands of years.
Wars don't have to happen to take slaves. It is in recent memory as documented in Old Empires that Chessenta is NOT taking dwarven slaves, but the dwarves there still think of them in the same terms. That somewhat implies that Unther is still taking dwarven slaves. It may be that they take whole dwarven merc companies that they catch travelling to Chessenta. They may have deals worked out with the bandits in the Shaar to capture dwarves. They may buy dwarves from slave traders amongst the inner sea pirates. They may get them by other means. If they then breed any captive slaves to get offspring, they may produce a score or more children within a few decades. In essence, whereas dwarves aren't inclined to turn their women into a breeding factory, the Untheri might be. If for each dwarf taken there are 10 offspring, you would only need about 10 thousand dwarves taken over the last hundred years (so maybe a hundred a year). If we turn around and assume that half the dwarves are also escaping at any given time, we simply increase this number to say 200 per year. This is assuming that the average captured dwarf takes about a century to escape (or serving 5 generations of humans). Now, there may be some portion that are multiple generations deep in servitude, but we're not told about this in a large scale. So, in the absence of any documentation, I choose the more noble struggle and the idea that the Untheri are not such amazing slavers that they aren't having to constantly renew slave stock because of rebellions, escapes, etc...
You may disagree, and that's understandable. Its all about what kind of game you want to run. But I say that we have nothing that forces the issue in either direction. In the end, its about what type of world do you want to describe. There's the option of horrible oppression wherein the people apparently are lackadaisical and unwilling to stand up. Then there's the other where the people are being oppressed but they're fighting against it, sometimes at the cost of good lives. I recommend the latter. Its important to show the darkness and the light in my book. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 08:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What you might see, however, are dwarven males put to stud among slave human females. This results in the birth of more dwarves, in the first generation, but gradually will just introduce some dwarven blood into the human slave stock, making them slightly more robust, healthy and longer-lived.
These slaves will still count as 'human' in the demographics listed for Unther, of course, but will have some partial dwarven blood. Those listed as 'dwarven' will be 50% or more dwarves by genetic heritage, but a fairly high percentage is likely to be pureblooded dwarf, for much the same reason that you don't find racehorses kept by rich people breeding with cheap nags.
The bit I quoted from FR11 Dwarves Deep specifically said that when you mate a half-dwarf to a human in the Realms, the next generation is a half-dwarf; someone who has one dwarven grandparent and three human is someone who is in appearance and all game terms a dwarf, except for height.
So the result of putting dwarven males to stud among human females is not just somewhat sturdier humans. Even if the children all mate with 100% humans, all the grandchildren are, effectively, dwarves. Including the lifespan and all the other things you mention that make dwarves valuable slaves.
An additional reason also comes from FR11 Dwarves Deep page 6, though I didn't quote it above: "About 70% of all births are males." So even if you leave your slaves to pick their mates entirely on their own, a majority of your male dwarves don't have a female dwarf to pair with. Unless you're carefully segregating male dwarves from contact with other slaves, simple propinquity indicates you're going to have lots of half-dwarves.
That's why I think it's likely that 3% figure in the FRCS includes lots of "halfbloods"; every "pureblood" male that winds up begetting with a human woman creates two generations of "half"-dwarves, and there are lots of excess dwarf males. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 12:35:28
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That's a good point, see.
I don't want to imply that Untheri dwarves will never have part-human heritage. Rather, I imagine that unlike the Tethen human slave population, dwarven slaves are valuable enough to justify carefully husbanding everything about their breeding. Not only will the rare and treasured dwarven dams only be covered by the most prized drawven studs, but anyone in possession of a male dwarf with sought-after traits will probably be able to charge a stud fee for him to cover female slaves.
Basically, I imagine that dwarven slaves are valuable enough so that they are bred like purebred dogs or racehorses. Of course, while a dwarven adult slave is worth five times a human, at least, it occurs to me that this doesn't apply to the children. They're worth their adult price minus the cost of raising them until useful and the risk that they'll die, escape or turn unmanagable before that. So, dwarven slave infants might be worth 200 gp, while human ones don't even have a value for the first couple of years.
And, yes, I know Dwarves Deep says to treat half-dwarves and even quarter-dwarves as dwarves in game terms. Which I do. But I still think that within the range of possible values for robustness, longevity and desirable dwarven traits possible for a dwarf, those with more human ancestry tend to be closer to human norms. Still a dwarf in game terms, but probably less likely to achieve remarkable length of life or exceptional vitality than someone from two purebred dwarf parents chosen for these traits.
Of course, there will be breeders who believe in introducing exceptional human blood into the line occasionally, to prevent in-breeding traits and because they believe in the theory of hybrid vigour. So, sure, after thousands of years, most of the 130,000 dwarves in Unther will have some human ancestry, but rather like greyhounds or Arabian horses, many of them will be bred for apparent purity of breed. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 15 Aug 2020 12:36:20 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2020 : 13:13:40
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What are some thoughts on race relations in Airspur?
It's noted as a cosmopolitan city and half-orcs are not only a significant minority of 30% there, they are integrated into society to the point that one of their own leads the government.
If there are dwarves and halflings in Airpur as well, , humans might only make up half of the population there, making it a truly multi-ethnic city. Does it strike anyone as implausible that a couple out of every hundred dwarves in Chessenta might be open-minded enough to choose to live in a city with that many half-orcs and accept them as fellow citizens?
Not that there was not friction and complete lack of prejudice, because that's not plausible in any society with people (whether human or otherwise), but generally, that dwarves who choose to make their living in the city of Airspur were much less prejudiced against orcs (or at least half-orcs) than dwarves generally were. |
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Dwarves in Old Empires and Chessenta
