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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 08:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Mod edit: Homophobic rant removed. Bigotry is NOT WELCOME in our halls.
-- Wooly Rupert
My dude, Ed says in clear black and white that you’re wrong on this a few pages back. Chill it with this weird fragility.
Okay, I can do that. Regardless of the outcome.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jul 2020 16:00:35 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 14:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
What do you think the odds are of a queer culture existing in Rashemen? I could easily see their genders being reinterpreted to be more than just a classic cis binary...
Rashemi society is among the most cis binary in the Realms, at least as far as the witches and warriors are concerned. It's actually canon that the Iron Lord is supposed to embody all masculine virtues and that the witches are specifically female (the name of their order translates to 'Wise Old Women and they bear the title 'Learned Sister'). In fact, Rashemi society, along with such things as drow matriarchies, is one of the few societies in the Realms that Ed Greenwood specifically mentions as an exception to the usual gender equality in the Realms.
Given how magic is sex-segregated for the most part, the few Vremyonni (male members of the Wychlaran order) could be interpreted as a third gender, however. After all, they engage in a stereotypically female pursuit, reject typical male accomplishments and pursuits, don't seem to marry or procreate, but belong to a category distinct from the female witches.
Aside from the issue of canonical gender roles, however, I believe that there is nothing indicating that Rashemi society limits or stigmatizes sexual behaviour. I'd be inclined to believe that this meant that their behaviour was fairly standard for the Realms, i.e. that more or less all sexual attraction was considered normal and that all consensual sexual activity was accepted.
Or, at least, that things that might cause problems in society were not related to the sex of the participants, but more likely differences in social status, jealousy of any uninvolved parties, broken promises or marriage contracts, etc.
That being said, now that I think about it, I think there is some support in the Starlight and Shadows for the idea that Rashemi society is more sexually restrictive than most Realms societies. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 25 Jul 2020 18:04:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 16:01:52
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| Folks, I've removed some homophobic content from this discussion. Such commentary is entirely unwelcome in our halls. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 17:45:57
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CEV, homosexuality and nonbinary genders do indeed have a place. Look at the elves you and I both love so much. The entire Seldarine is known for being androgynous and fluid. This means that the gender of your lover could be male or female, or anywhere in between. That is canon, and has been for a long time. Elves, and really most races on Faerun, can have relations with others of the same or opposite sex.
Ed has confirmed on a number of occasions that the Realms is more sexually open, with bisexuality or pansexuality being the norm for most races. So yes, it had a place, and an important one. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 25 Jul 2020 18:15:34 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 20:14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
CEV, homosexuality and nonbinary genders do indeed have a place. Look at the elves you and I both love so much. The entire Seldarine is known for being androgynous and fluid. This means that the gender of your lover could be male or female, or anywhere in between. That is canon, and has been for a long time. Elves, and really most races on Faerun, can have relations with others of the same or opposite sex.
Ed has confirmed on a number of occasions that the Realms is more sexually open, with bisexuality or pansexuality being the norm for most races. So yes, it had a place, and an important one.
He’s been banned, I believe. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 00:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
That would depend on how many warnings he got.
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
As someone who reads a lot of books with Lgbtq+ representation in them, I can say that most of the time, it isn't presented in a preaching kind of way, especially not in fantasy. For example, two men falling in love is just two people falling in love, and they happen to be men. This will depend on the setting the author chooses to create, of course, as some suffer from homophobia, like the real world, and other settings don't.
Some fantasy of course suffers from tokenism (like two men getting it on in a common room, which not only is tokenism, but feeds into the stereotype of gays constantly being horny). I felt Death Masks fed into the "bury your gays" trope a bit, tbh, as their relationship ended tragically, but I applaud Ed for trying.
Having LGBTQ+ characters isn't inherently a political statement (as orientation itself isn't political in the real world, it's just been made that way because minorities have had to fight for their rights). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 00:22:38 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 00:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
That would depend on how many warnings he got.
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
A gay character existing is not “being political.” Why don’t straight, cis people’s place in a narrative need to be justified? This whole idea that characters being queer needs to be justified that feels like open homophobia under the thinnest possible curtain. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 00:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
That would depend on how many warnings he got.
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
A gay character existing is not “being political.” Why don’t straight, cis people’s place in a narrative need to be justified? This whole idea that characters being queer needs to be justified that feels like open homophobia under the thinnest possible curtain.
Agreed.
You can't simultaneously cry "Keep politics out of entertainment!" and literally define the existence of some people as political. Then you're just attempting to edit people that make you uncomfortable out of reality and that is an inherently political act. Not to mention exclusionary and uncool. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 00:51:47
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Yeah, this.
Besides, why would, for example, a M/F romance be relevant to the plot and automatically justified, but a M/M romance would need extra steps or setup to be justified?
Heck, you don't even need to add a romance subplot to a story to show that a character is queer. To make a really trivial example, your male PoV going to a place and thinking that the male innkeeper is attractive would be perfectly natural and wouldn't break PoV (it happens to everyone to sometimes think that a given person is attractive, so it wouldn't be something like an external narrator coming down and telling you "see, the PoV is queer"--which is suboptimal writing for *any* kind of information). Even a small detail like that can provide info on the fact that a character is queer, and the story would be unchanged. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jul 2020 00:53:25 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 01:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, this.
Besides, why would, for example, a M/F romance be relevant to the plot and automatically justified, but a M/M romance would need extra steps or setup to be justified?
Exactly. I have had this argument on a number of occasions with people. They complain that having a gay character (or couple) in a book is feeding into "woke" culture, but queer people enjoy reading fantasy too, and they have been reading about straight characters and couples forever, having to go to special sections (or even a special bookstore entirely) if they wanted to read about characters like themselves. Reverse it though, putting a queer character or couple in a "mainstream" book, and people lose their minds. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 01:37:57
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| Pay me $5 for every time I’ve had to read about straight characters feeling love or lust and then we can talk about justifying the existence of characters with a particular orientation. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 02:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yeah, this.
Besides, why would, for example, a M/F romance be relevant to the plot and automatically justified, but a M/M romance would need extra steps or setup to be justified?
Exactly. I have had this argument on a number of occasions with people. They complain that having a gay character (or couple) in a book is feeding into "woke" culture, but queer people enjoy reading fantasy too, and they have been reading about straight characters and couples forever, having to go to special sections (or even a special bookstore entirely) if they wanted to read about characters like themselves. Reverse it though, putting a queer character or couple in a "mainstream" book, and people lose their minds.
I've seen this a lot, too -- any time you have even a single character that doesn't fall into the straight/white/cisgender category, some people start screaming about it and claiming it's all a political agenda.
It was a shock and a disappointment to me when I first saw this, because up until then, I'd thought that exposure to different races and cultures in fantasy meant that fantasy fans were, in general, going to be more accepting of anything that didn't fall into that particular norm. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 03:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
even if a m/f romance in a fantasy novel was going on in a novel if it was either main tone or a major undertone, I'd still not want to read it. Me and romance novels do not get along as I find them boring, over done, and a few other things that are on the tip of my tongue. This might also be why I found the 3.x 3rd party book known as the Book of Erotic Fantasy to be in bad taste too....
What I'm trying to say and failing at is that imo the story plot should not revolve around that bit of detail. That detail should be done over several novels and still not revolve around it.
oh and it is political when you work for a company as a free lancer lets say for Wotc and are forced to toe the line and write one that way, when you either don't like writing about anything that goes on behind closed doors, don't feel you can do it justice. live in a muslim country where that is illegal anyway. Toe the line or look for a new job, but that's a the penalty with working as a freelancer...
So if the plot shouldn’t revolve around it, but it should fit the story and not be thrown in as an unimportant detail... what amount of gay /do/ you think is acceptable? Because you’re using a lot of words to say 0%, and I’d rather you just say that. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 03:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
even if a m/f romance in a fantasy novel was going on in a novel if it was either main tone or a major undertone, I'd still not want to read it. Me and romance novels do not get along as I find them boring, over done, and a few other things that are on the tip of my tongue. This might also be why I found the 3.x 3rd party book known as the Book of Erotic Fantasy to be in bad taste too....
No one is saying it has to revolve around it. In fact, if you make it a natural part of the character and story, it won't (such as a man finding the male innkeeper attractive. It doesn't mean he is going to bed with the innkeeper). Most fantasy has some element of romance, with some focusing more heavily on it than others. For some, it's subtle, and develops over the course of the book/series. To use the Realms as an example, some relationships don't really even develop until the end of the story. Having romance in a story, whether m/f, m/m, or f/f, doesn't mean you have to describe what goes on behind closed doors in any detail. There doesn't have to be a sex scene at all, for that matter.
A character being gay, trans, bi, etc, should just be part of who they are, treated the same way straight characters are. I've read several books where this is done quite well. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 03:46:11 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 04:48:29
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I read a lot of m/m romances (as in the actual genre), and I don't mind some romance in books, but I don't always want the story to revolve around it, either. Some books have romance as a major element, and others it's there (characters have emotions, after all, and develop and interact with others, though of course platonic relationships are important, too) in the "background".
I have read some fantasy that is sexually explicit, but others are much more tame about it. While the Realms novels (when we had them) were getting more...mature, shall we say, there was still nothing explicit in the scenes. If someone complained on Twitter that a sex scene wasn't explicit enough, I would say that is more on them than the author/designer of the book/product. In fact, in something like a Realms novel (though you could apply this to other fantasy, as well), having, say, an m/m or f/f relationship but not have any sex scenes would actually help break away from the stereotype that all gays are promiscuous and sex-driven. As a queer person, I can tell you that a sweet scene with the couple holding hands, perhaps sharing a kiss, and just living/adventuring together and fighting whoever the "bad guy" is together is equally as powerful to me as a steamy bedroom scene. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 10:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
Well said. The point of the game in most people's games involves solving riddles, killing monsters, maybe arranging some clandestine criminal activity, maybe saving some people, maybe crafting some magic item, etc... When they see this becoming the focus of the game, they get A) bored and B) feel weird because they feel like someone is just trying to use the fact that they are in control of a plot to express their political views. I also find in a corollary to B) that that kind of DM turns out to be intolerant when a player doesn't want to let them play out their little whims or when a player can't be made the center of attention. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 12:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
the plot of the novel should not revolve around it no. Does not mean it can't be put in a subtle way. Does not mean gay novel characters should not exist either. Keftiu you really should not read too much into someone else's posts. You come off as reading things the way you want them to be. If it fits the character and comes off naturally I can agree with it, should it come up to where it leads to that in the reader's mind, than the author did the job right. I also did not say that it should not be thrown in as a detail on said character either, I only said it should not revolve around it. Now if you have a plot that could revolve around it like the entire plot is someone is being black mailed and that is the presumed reason between that character and one in the novel or pnp game's pcs...
Corellonsdevout that is true the sex scene does not have to be there, but sooner or later someone on Twitter will criticize Wotc/Paizo/white wolf/ etc etc etc wanting it because of delusional head canon. For the most part that is also true done well the feelings for the other develop over the series/ book.
Oh and something else Keftiu, I have a cousin that in his life was gay, so I would not say that zero is what I would accept in novels. Think there is a lesbian too off of one of my mom's cousins....
From what I understand, keftiu is kinda on the edge with you sfdragon, as you literally called a same-sex relationship or encounter in a game a "real world political issue" insertion, and only latter (partially) backtracking from that, telling every story with to much romance would be not up to your taste.
And latter still try to argue same sex romance is political, as it could be political/looked down in several countries, or a writer of an RPG supplement/module could be "forced" to write a same sex romance, or characters in a same sex relationship in the modules story.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
oh and it is political when you work for a company as a free lancer lets say for Wotc and are forced to toe the line and write one that way, when you either don't like writing about anything that goes on behind closed doors, don't feel you can do it justice. live in a muslim country where that is illegal anyway. Toe the line or look for a new job, but that's a the penalty with working as a freelancer...
So as I mentioned at the start, this is why I think keftiu, interpreted so your comments.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well said. The point of the game in most people's games involves solving riddles, killing monsters, maybe arranging some clandestine criminal activity, maybe saving some people, maybe crafting some magic item, etc... When they see this becoming the focus of the game, they get A) bored and B) feel weird because they feel like someone is just trying to use the fact that they are in control of a plot to express their political views. I also find in a corollary to B) that that kind of DM turns out to be intolerant when a player doesn't want to let them play out their little whims or when a player can't be made the center of attention.
Sorry sleyvas, but I cannot really agree, maybe due to differing experiences.
Sfdragon basically stated gay romance as a "real-life political issue" insertion, which it really isn't.
No more (arguably less) than conflicts between nations, religions, interpretations of how to worship a deity, ideologies, nationalities, nations or ethnic groups, of which there is plenty in D&D.
I guess you mean basically a DM would force this as a central plot (with basically NPCs taking over the story from players), getting into an unnecessary and/or overblown conflict with players, or trying to manipulate a player's character characterization without the consent of the player, but sfdragon here at least so worded it, that an existence of NPCs having same sex romance or sexual encounter is "political" or insertion of real life politics.
(I anything, it would be at worst cringey as a badly inserted male-female encounter would be). |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2020 14:32:37 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 15:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
Well said. The point of the game in most people's games involves solving riddles, killing monsters, maybe arranging some clandestine criminal activity, maybe saving some people, maybe crafting some magic item, etc... When they see this becoming the focus of the game, they get A) bored and B) feel weird because they feel like someone is just trying to use the fact that they are in control of a plot to express their political views. I also find in a corollary to B) that that kind of DM turns out to be intolerant when a player doesn't want to let them play out their little whims or when a player can't be made the center of attention.
The point of YOUR game anyway, NOT "most games". Just because you don't play that way doesn't make it the majority, and it's thinking like that that turns off new players that are looking for a role-playing game.
Oh. And what Baltas said too...
And another thing...
If romance and PC/NPC relationships are soooooo boring in the game, why it the most popular game right now (Critical Role) about 75%-85% about their relationships? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 26 Jul 2020 15:31:59 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 19:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
What a lot of people don't like with escapism is having real world political issues brought into it in such a way that it adds nothing to the plot ( IE:blatantly written male npc + male npc getting it on in the commons room in the Yawning Portal during the night)(You want to run or write a campaign where this happens be my guest, official products not so much wanted)
For instance, the Last book that Ed wrote(I forget its tittle, whatever it was, it was a great read and I recommend everyone read it) had a gay couple in it, how it was done I can get behind as it was done brilliantly.
Basically nobody likes being lectured to.
Well said. The point of the game in most people's games involves solving riddles, killing monsters, maybe arranging some clandestine criminal activity, maybe saving some people, maybe crafting some magic item, etc... When they see this becoming the focus of the game, they get A) bored and B) feel weird because they feel like someone is just trying to use the fact that they are in control of a plot to express their political views. I also find in a corollary to B) that that kind of DM turns out to be intolerant when a player doesn't want to let them play out their little whims or when a player can't be made the center of attention.
Again the insistence that a queer character existing is political. Why?
Also, plenty of games feature romance as a plot element. It’s not that hard to have honest conversations at the table about what you do and don’t enjoy in a game, and to tailor play appropriately. My group likes varying degrees of romance, and often plays systems that feature it as a central mechanic.
I think you’re misrepresenting the average D&D game in a lot of ways here, not least of which by acting like straight attraction never comes up in the average game. Is the king married to a queen? Does the Fighter have a wife back home? Does the Bard ever roll a Diplomacy check to see if he can flirt with the barmaid? Hell, does anyone have a mom and a dad? Congrats, you’re just as in-your-face as any queer character you claim to be upset about. So maybe your issue isn’t ever having romance nodded to at the table, and more about queer people existing. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 26 Jul 2020 19:24:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 19:30:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well said. The point of the game in most people's games involves solving riddles, killing monsters, maybe arranging some clandestine criminal activity, maybe saving some people, maybe crafting some magic item, etc... When they see this becoming the focus of the game, they get A) bored and B) feel weird because they feel like someone is just trying to use the fact that they are in control of a plot to express their political views. I also find in a corollary to B) that that kind of DM turns out to be intolerant when a player doesn't want to let them play out their little whims or when a player can't be made the center of attention.
Sorry sleyvas, but I cannot really agree, maybe due to differing experiences.
Sfdragon basically stated gay romance as a "real-life political issue" insertion, which it really isn't.
No more (arguably less) than conflicts between nations, religions, interpretations of how to worship a deity, ideologies, nationalities, nations or ethnic groups, of which there is plenty in D&D.
I guess you mean basically a DM would force this as a central plot (with basically NPCs taking over the story from players), getting into an unnecessary and/or overblown conflict with players, or trying to manipulate a player's character characterization without the consent of the player, but sfdragon here at least so worded it, that an existence of NPCs having same sex romance or sexual encounter is "political" or insertion of real life politics.
(I anything, it would be at worst cringey as a badly inserted male-female encounter would be).
What you said on the second part. I've been in many a roleplaying game that just went weird because DM's want to push some personal bias that they have. Perhaps if I gave some examples it might help.
About 20 years ago, I came into a Cyberpunk campaign, and to be upfront, I'm very anti-drugs (moreso now than even then) and it has everything to do with how much I've seen people ruin their lives over them (and I'm not talking a couple incidents... I can count four definitive deaths off the top of my head). I can deal with the concept of drugs in a game mind you, and in fact, I understand the concepts of using them for a criminal organization, etc.... However, in that game, the person was just focusing the entire game around drugs and an NPC that he was calling "the candy man". I never went back.
Similarly, in games I the past, I've had DM's who had some weird bondage fetish, and we kept finding people in bad situations (including young kids who were captured). It got very creepy for me. I don't think the DM was "that kind of person" mind you, and I think he was just trying to use it for shock appeal. Still, I didn't go back.
I've seen gay stuff pulled out in games too, and my point was about SFDragon pointing out DM's using plot points just to show you that because they felt it makes the realms believable (in the instance he presents, it was a some background gay activity). However, I've seen DM's that continually have people propositioning players that are straight "just to show that the world is like that". It didn't do anything but make the player feel weird, and honestly it felt like that DM was unprepared and just making up roleplaying encounters to occupy player time while he tried to figure out how to run the game. But still, he had the player getting hit on by characters that they blatantly would not be interested it just because "that's the way the world is". So, that's why I agreed with sfdragon about people just putting on a show that doesn't even matter to the game and it having no other reason that to push that person's personal political or social beliefs.
Also, to be clear, I live just outside New Orleans. While its not my cup of tea, I've been around gay person's for a lot of my life. The French quarter has a yearly festival, and I think its great that they can come to the city and be themselves. However, just as I don't go around talking about sexual fetishes with them, they don't sit around trying to express them to me either. In short, if someone were to show a gay relationship in my games, I'd have no problem with it, until the DM feels the need to describe to me what they're over there in the corner doing in some graphic detail. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jul 2020 19:37:37 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 19:32:40
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I am going to echo what Baltas and Ashe said. Depends on how you want to play. Some games are more about the hack-and-slash and get the treasures, others are more about the roleplaying aspect. In these latter games, like in Critical Role, relationships can develop. Some people really like to roleplay, after all.
About escapism: queer people play D&D and read fantasy, too. We also want to escape reality sometimes--you know, the reality that tells us we're wrong, that says we don't belong in X or Y. We also want to play in a world where we can be who we want without homophobia, transphobia, acephobia, etc. Our very existence isn't a political statement (we've always existed), therefore, wanting to see ourselves represented isn't a political statement, either. By playing a queer character, I am not making a political statement; I'm playing a character. If I play a gay character, and I develop feelings for another character or an NPC, that isn't political, that's bringing in emotion and character development to the story. You know, roleplaying. Instances of same-sex attraction or romance really does not need to be portrayed that differently than heterosexual romance. Think of all the times a man has looked at a cute barmaid. No one makes a big deal of it. A man appreciates the male innkeeper, and suddenly it's a political statement and thus doesn't belong in escapist literature or games? That makes no sense. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 20:26:38 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 19:38:18
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I’m not saying your Paladin needs to have a steamy intimate scene with a hot guy every single session, or that the next twelve sessions of your game need to revolve around finding the magic Chalice of Transition for the poor trans girl in town. I’m saying that there shouldn’t be anything shocking about the innkeep having his husband run the bar, or the farmgirl in town having a crush on the local priestess of Sune - not least of which when we have Ed saying that most folks in the Realms are closer to bi by default anyway, and there’s very few sources of cultural queerphobia to stem from in the world. People like me exist, and have just as much fun pretending to throw fireballs, rob evil dukes, and duel pirates as anyone else, so the insistence that we either shouldn’t exist in escapist fantasy, that our inclusion is a political statement, or that our fun needs to be tempered with “realistic” bigotry falls flat as hell for me.
Hence my being on-edge these last few pages. You can only read so many thin, circular arguments about how much your existence is allowed or acceptable in fiction before you start to suspect people’s opposition goes beyond the fantastical, and Copper Elven Vampire neatly showed that opposition to fictional queer folks is often a bedsheet over the head of real queerphobia.
People like you get to exist without a second thought in fantasy worlds. Do try and share that. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 26 Jul 2020 19:41:32 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 20:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What you said on the second part. I've been in many a roleplaying game that just went weird because DM's want to push some personal bias that they have. Perhaps if I gave some examples it might help.
About 20 years ago, I came into a Cyberpunk campaign, and to be upfront, I'm very anti-drugs (moreso now than even then) and it has everything to do with how much I've seen people ruin their lives over them (and I'm not talking a couple incidents... I can count four definitive deaths off the top of my head). I can deal with the concept of drugs in a game mind you, and in fact, I understand the concepts of using them for a criminal organization, etc.... However, in that game, the person was just focusing the entire game around drugs and an NPC that he was calling "the candy man". I never went back.
Similarly, in games I the past, I've had DM's who had some weird bondage fetish, and we kept finding people in bad situations (including young kids who were captured). It got very creepy for me. I don't think the DM was "that kind of person" mind you, and I think he was just trying to use it for shock appeal. Still, I didn't go back.
I've seen gay stuff pulled out in games too, and my point was about SFDragon pointing out DM's using plot points just to show you that because they felt it makes the realms believable (in the instance he presents, it was a some background gay activity). However, I've seen DM's that continually have people propositioning players that are straight "just to show that the world is like that". It didn't do anything but make the player feel weird, and honestly it felt like that DM was unprepared and just making up roleplaying encounters to occupy player time while he tried to figure out how to run the game. But still, he had the player getting hit on by characters that they blatantly would not be interested it just because "that's the way the world is". So, that's why I agreed with sfdragon about people just putting on a show that doesn't even matter to the game and it having no other reason that to push that person's personal political or social beliefs.
Also, to be clear, I live just outside New Orleans. While its not my cup of tea, I've been around gay person's for a lot of my life. The French quarter has a yearly festival, and I think its great that they can come to the city and be themselves. However, just as I don't go around talking about sexual fetishes with them, they don't sit around trying to express them to me either. In short, if someone were to show a gay relationship in my games, I'd have no problem with it, until the DM feels the need to describe to me what they're over there in the corner doing in some graphic detail.
Well I thought so, but it's good to hear.
Still, the thing is sfdragon's comment didn't exactly come as just meaning what you described, especially in the light of his latter comment I also cited.
As Keftiu and others mentioned, his comment did come of criticizing adding same-sex relationships in the background, and as others mentioned, it's a norm for straight relationships being used as such, but it isn't singled out, especially in discussions.
And as you mentioned, DM's also insert various things into campaigns, that aren't connected to the campaign, including pretty bad ones.
[EDIT]
What I meant by the last line, is that I also not sure if discussing the "issue" brought up by sfdragon, is that tied to this thread's topic.
As we could as well bring up there some fairly tone-deaf to homophobic DMs and players. Two examples from RPG horror stories as narrated and analyzed by CritCrab (second is very NSFW and trigger warning as it includes rape in storyline by the DM):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjsxLy97T5Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZRWI74h2dc
Again, we could say it has as much place in this discussion though.
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Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2020 21:31:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 20:52:01
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There also seems to be a burning misconception (not just here, but in general) among those opposed to queer representation in escapist literature that gay=porn, which just isn't true. It's not just sexual fetishes any more than being heterosexual is.
At the risk of diverging from the Realms, I will point out the fandom response to inclusivity on the show The Dragon Prince . There is a scene where two adult male elves kiss (they are married). The fandom lost its mind over this scene, screaming "but the children!" as if somehow a kiss had equated fo a full-on bedroom scene. Yet, two teenagers in the same show, a boy and a girl, kiss, and it is oh so adorable. There were no "but the children!" arguements, even though the heterosexual couple is younger than the gay couple.
I bring this up because a queer couple being represented automatically seems to equate to steamy bedroom scenes, and that is inaccurate and a poor representation of queer identity. People seem to shy away from having gay characters in their game or literature because somehow that automatically means erotica.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 21:08:22 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 20:55:54
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| We literally have “I’m okay with gay people as long as they don’t talk to me about their fetishes” last page, which is yet again acting like queer people can’t exist without being hypersexual nightmares. It’s exhausting to act like much of this thread has been in good faith. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 21:16:59
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| Exactly why I bring up the misconception that gay=porn. The amazing epic fantasy series Nightrunner by Lynn Flewelling has an m/m relationship. The series is seven books long, and the two characters officially acknowledge their feelings at the end of book two. Reviewers, of course, were up in arms about the whole thing, completely ignoring the fact that the somewhat younger character's "first time" was with a woman who magically coerced him. Coercion apparently wasn't a problem, but two men (with a few years age difference) being in love? Oh, heavens forbid. When I recommended the first book to someone, they pointed out that one character notes the other's "pretty face". This is somehow equated to promiscuousness, even though nothing happens between them until later, and male characters note the "pretty faces" of women all the time. Actions taken by heterosexual characters are never called into question, but make them queer, and suddenly it's porn, pedophilia, a fetish, or what have you. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 21:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
At the risk of diverging from the Realms, I will point out the fandom response to inclusivity on the show The Dragon Prince . There is a scene where two adult male elves kiss (they are married). The fandom lost its mind over this scene, screaming "but the children!" as if somehow a kiss had equated fo a full-on bedroom scene. Yet, two teenagers in the same show, a boy and a girl, kiss, and it is oh so adorable. There were no "but the children!" arguements, even though the heterosexual couple is younger than the gay couple.
Really? Guess I've gotten so used to seeing it that I didn't even notice or care. To be clear, I loved Dragon Prince. (SIDEBAR: was this from a book... I ask because I didn't know the witcher was a book series until I saw the series, and I thought it was just a video game adaptation). I'd be surprised to hear that response, because most of the people I work with actually loved the show (I work with geeks from the age of 25 to 60, as I'm in IT... but my group is more geek than any of them).
What I do find annoying is that nowadays it seems like nearly every show I'm watching HAS to have several predictable things. It seems every time I turn around a show is portraying either two men or two women kissing, usually it does both. The third thing is that no matter what, there will be a white female that is in love with a black male (to note, sometimes its the reverse). What's annoying to me about these things are two things. First, based on what I see in society, these things are not that prevalent that every show needs to have it. Second its that its PREDICTABLE (To be clear, I find it annoying because I'm getting to a point that I can predict what's going to happen... not that it happens.). When I see things becoming THIS predictable, it feels like an agenda being pushed. That's when I get irritated when I hear people saying there's not enough representation and things like that. I feel like its been so accepted that noone even thinks twice when they see it anymore. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 22:04:30
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| And yet you’re here arguing about how you don’t want to see it, so how accepted are we? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 22:11:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
At the risk of diverging from the Realms, I will point out the fandom response to inclusivity on the show The Dragon Prince . There is a scene where two adult male elves kiss (they are married). The fandom lost its mind over this scene, screaming "but the children!" as if somehow a kiss had equated fo a full-on bedroom scene. Yet, two teenagers in the same show, a boy and a girl, kiss, and it is oh so adorable. There were no "but the children!" arguements, even though the heterosexual couple is younger than the gay couple.
Really? Guess I've gotten so used to seeing it that I didn't even notice or care. To be clear, I loved Dragon Prince. (SIDEBAR: was this from a book... I ask because I didn't know the witcher was a book series until I saw the series, and I thought it was just a video game adaptation). I'd be surprised to hear that response, because most of the people I work with actually loved the show (I work with geeks from the age of 25 to 60, as I'm in IT... but my group is more geek than any of them).
Oh, the The Dragon Prince fandom is sadly incredibly toxic. Maybe it's better irl, but online it's a clusterf--ck. Part of that is the nature of the internet, I suppose, but it's rife with homophobia and overall nasty behavior.
it isn't based on a novel, but they are making a novel adaptation to the series, with more insights to characters and such (the first book came out earlier this year). I comic book that takes place between season 3 and 4 comes out in October.
quote:
What I do find annoying is that nowadays it seems like nearly every show I'm watching HAS to have several predictable things. It seems every time I turn around a show is portraying either two men or two women kissing, usually it does both. The third thing is that no matter what, there will be a white female that is in love with a black male (to note, sometimes its the reverse). What's annoying to me about these things are two things. First, based on what I see in society, these things are not that prevalent that every show needs to have it. Second its that its PREDICTABLE (To be clear, I find it annoying because I'm getting to a point that I can predict what's going to happen... not that it happens.). When I see things becoming THIS predictable, it feels like an agenda being pushed. That's when I get irritated when I hear people saying there's not enough representation and things like that. I feel like its been so accepted that noone even thinks twice when they see it anymore.
I am starting to see queer representation more and more, but I wouldn't say it's normal, at least in my experience. I don't have to hunt for books with representation as much as I used to, but it still takes searching. I haven't seen it that much on tv, but then again, I don't watch a huge chunk of television.
I look at it this way: for decades, the "norm" has been cis, straight romance (and usually white. Interracial relationships were groundbreaking). Turn on any show, pick up any book, and you will see some variation of boy-meets-girl, with, I would argue, equal amounts of predictability. Queer people have watched these shows, and read these books, too, with probably the same bored thought of, "I wonder what's gonna happen next? [insert sarcasm]". The same amount of predictablility has always been there, it's just now we're seeing more queer characters in the scenario, rather than straight.
While you could argue that in some cases, this feels like it's pushing some political agenda, and perhaps some producers are doing it for attention (this goes back to the tokenism I mentioned earlier), it's also because society is slowly realizing that queer people exist, and have a place in media. We're a lot more common than most realize. But for a long time, it hasn't been safe for us to be "out" (and in some areas, it still isn't. As sfdragon said, in some countries, it's still illegal, and as some past responses in this thread show, we still have a long way to go). But if it seems like there is a sudden "influx" of queers, it's because we don't have to hide as much anymore. We've always been here, but we've long been the villains or the comic relief, if we're represented at all. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 22:13:09 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 22:16:06
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Dunno sleyvas, from what I saw, far from every show has now a same sex couple, especially among main or important side characters.
The same with couples with people from different ethnicities.
I also wouldn't say it occurs, if we take all modern series (dunno from the last 5-6 years?) and all characters, if the percentage of characters on the LGBT spectrum or engaging in same-sex romance would higher, or that higher than how many people on the LGBT spectrum there are (especially that research finds over 10% of people are bisexual or homosexual, with younger people being more open and willing to accept their own sexuality).
Similarly with characters from other ethnicities romancing.
Especially that within the fantasy genre itself, for a long time, this is very prevalent - if not exactly with human ethnicities/races - I mean, how many characters of different races (usually human or another race - especially elven races), romanced in Fantasy, or even Forgotten Realms? Even in the background producing various mixed races?
I don't know if you are a Warcraft fan (and also risking diverging from the Realms), but Warcraft fans joke seemingly all three Windrunner sisters fallen for humans, and it means their family must have some human fetish, or other similar jokes.
(well, with Sylvanas and Nathanos, it's a bit unclear, but even with her there are visible clues she might not just use him, or at least didn't originally. And Alleria and Vereesa did canonically fallen for, and had children with humans)
[EDIT]
I especially don't think same-sex romances are "predictable" in comparison to for male-female ones - I mean, if anything very, very often in fiction, an closer interaction and relationship of a male and female characters, even if it's originally presented as a friendship, end up becoming a romance or at least having strong romantic undertones.
There were and even jokes male-female friendship (especially a very strong one, without romantic undertones) is one of the most underrepresented relationships in fiction. |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2020 22:54:31 |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
