| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 08:04:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
I must admit that I was also happy with the cosmology section. It was a definite improvement over the material presented in the FRCS. If I were to run a FR campaign now, I'd be hard pressed on deciding whether to use this new refined planar system, or the older 2e 'Great Wheel' structure.
Mi'lady, are you trying to start an argument?  .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
 |
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 11:03:45
|
Well, remember my suggestion from Eberron. You can have each mini-cosmology as part of a larger one.
After all, remember the ending of the Avatar trilogy.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 11:20:59
|
I do remember, I only wish the Lady Kazandra would realise that .
Still, I do think some aspects of the Eberron cosmology deserve more attention; like the Dreaming Dark for example. It could be useful, within a moderately psionic-based campaign.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 13:48:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
I must admit that I was also happy with the cosmology section. It was a definite improvement over the material presented in the FRCS. If I were to run a FR campaign now, I'd be hard pressed on deciding whether to use this new refined planar system, or the older 2e 'Great Wheel' structure.
Mi'lady, are you trying to start an argument? .
Why?...
Just remember, that I don't have the experience of playing in the 2e 'Great Wheel' cosmology environment. Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity to see which performs better in gameplay.
|
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 16:26:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Why?...
Just remember, that I don't have the experience of playing in the 2e 'Great Wheel' cosmology environment. Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity to see which performs better in gameplay.
Lady K, the issues people have with the new cosmology have more to do with flavor than with gameplay.
As has already been pointed out, the original idea behind the Realms was that it had many links to other worlds. These links have been part of the Realms' history for quite some time, and in some areas, like the Old Empires, have played a major part in regional history.
But the new cosmology basically states that there's the Realms, and nothing else. Toril went from being a world with many connections to other worlds to being a world alone. As this invalidates a huge chunk of Realmslore, many people, myself included, simply choose to ignore it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 16:40:52
|
I know I certainly chose to ignore it. I've never run any of my continuing Realms campaign with the 3e cosmology. It's always been the 'Great Wheel'. I did run two one-shot adventures using the FR 3e cosmological structure, but then most here already know my thoughts on that planar framework... .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 21:52:51
|
I don't know why they did this, anyway. For Eberron, I can understand it -- it's not just a different system, because everything's different. But for the Realms?  There are too many other (even 3e!) mentions of other worlds for this to hold true. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2004 : 22:52:37
|
They did it because they work alongside the same people who produced the 3.0 Manual of the Planes, and thus, decided to dig their heels in and support new concepts brought forward by this book.
Second, they also did it to realign Realms fiction with Realms gaming. If you remember reading the Avatar trilogy, the Crucible, etc., you'll agree that several planes of existence described in the novels would have required their own layer, if not Outer Plane. Just think of the Cynosure and the Fugue Plane: these two planes alone cannot exist within a Great Wheel or Planescape structure, as it would fly in the face of the whole Petitioner system, etc.
Basically, it made more sense to reboot to a new planar structure than to spend countless hours going back to 1st edition to find every little tidbits of Great Wheel the Realms had previously published. The Plane of Shadow allows for old myths such as the coming of Mulhorandi gods and others; it even allows for planar travel to other primes/planar structures (such as the Great Wheel)
Finally, it drives the nail down, proclaiming "The Realms have their own cosmology!" not some borrowed/shared cosmic layers, having to bear having the Faerunian gods rubbing shoulders with Nerull, Vecna, Pelor, or other Greyhawk guys. If it's really important for you to have Thor or Hercules in your FR campaign, then maybe the Realms are not really satisfying for you... I sure don't feel the need to top off my campaigns as such, as I find the existing pantheons satisfying, and now, the cosmology also!
Now Sigil: I've always pictured Sigil (and Planescape) as not being exactly like the originial (1st ed) Great Wheel was. 1st ed used the "Plane of Concordant Opposition", not "the Outlands". Therefore, I have ruled that Planescape has it's own cosmology (Great Wheel = Greyhawk; Planescape+Sigil = standalone; Tree = FR). I have further defined Planescape to be just between the Realms and Greyhawk cosmologies (i.e. which is why we could have portals to Sigil but not Greyhawk, IMC of course) I've ruled that while extremely hard to build, Sigil portal-smiths can make portals going to other primes existing "one prime step" away from Planescape (i.e. FR and Greyhawk). So if you have a powerful Torilian mage go through the Plane of Shadow, then finds Sigil, you could then have him build or commission the building of a Portal to Toril in order to save him the shadow jaunt next time. Mordenkainen and Melf did the same IMC, trading/selling their spells within Sigil, which later made their way into Faerunian visitors' hands. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 00:13:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Second, they also did it to realign Realms fiction with Realms gaming. If you remember reading the Avatar trilogy, the Crucible, etc., you'll agree that several planes of existence described in the novels would have required their own layer, if not Outer Plane. Just think of the Cynosure and the Fugue Plane: these two planes alone cannot exist within a Great Wheel or Planescape structure, as it would fly in the face of the whole Petitioner system, etc.
How's that now? Cynosure was written up in Planescape as was the Fugue. How did it conflict with the Wheel/Ring? Instead the designers decided to change 13 years worth of FR sourcebooks and novels, as well as all Planescape material, with the new planar tree. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 00:19:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Just think of the Cynosure and the Fugue Plane: these two planes alone cannot exist within a Great Wheel or Planescape structure, as it would fly in the face of the whole Petitioner system, etc.
Not exactly, as souls travel to the Fugue Plane; once picked up, they become petitioners. |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 00:28:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Second, they also did it to realign Realms fiction with Realms gaming. If you remember reading the Avatar trilogy, the Crucible, etc., you'll agree that several planes of existence described in the novels would have required their own layer, if not Outer Plane. Just think of the Cynosure and the Fugue Plane: these two planes alone cannot exist within a Great Wheel or Planescape structure, as it would fly in the face of the whole Petitioner system, etc.
How's that now? Cynosure was written up in Planescape as was the Fugue. How did it conflict with the Wheel/Ring? Instead the designers decided to change 13 years worth of FR sourcebooks and novels, as well as all Planescape material, with the new planar tree.
Well, I remember reading a passage describing the tower in which Helm resides... I remember telling myself: this ain't no Mechanus plane, heck, not even anything remotely similar to anything nearby Mechanus... Don't get me wrong: I loved Planescape and had all the gaming stuff for that setting, but I firmly believe that the setting could be fully enjoyed on its own, with PCs native to Sigil and the Outer Planes. Even if your Realms connect to Sigil, your PCs going there are no more than simple clueless primes anyway. You end up having to choose between a deep, well-thought out adventure on 1) Faerun; 2) Planescape setting or 3) a watered-down mix of the two. I don't like water in my whisky, so I choose either 1 or 2... |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 01:00:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Well, I remember reading a passage describing the tower in which Helm resides... I remember telling myself: this ain't no Mechanus plane, heck, not even anything remotely similar to anything nearby Mechanus... Don't get me wrong: I loved Planescape and had all the gaming stuff for that setting, but I firmly believe that the setting could be fully enjoyed on its own, with PCs native to Sigil and the Outer Planes. Even if your Realms connect to Sigil, your PCs going there are no more than simple clueless primes anyway. You end up having to choose between a deep, well-thought out adventure on 1) Faerun; 2) Planescape setting or 3) a watered-down mix of the two. I don't like water in my whisky, so I choose either 1 or 2...
That's cause Cynosure didn't exist on Mechanus. :) And I prefer the whole multiverse instead of a closed world that invalidates 13 years worth of FR material. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 03:17:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Just think of the Cynosure and the Fugue Plane: these two planes alone cannot exist within a Great Wheel or Planescape structure, as it would fly in the face of the whole Petitioner system, etc.
Not exactly, as souls travel to the Fugue Plane; once picked up, they become petitioners.
What about the Greyhawk souls? the Star Wars souls? the Birthright souls? etc. Do they all shuffle through the Fugue Plane? That's my point here...
And Kuje, I know the Cynosure wasn't on Mechanus, but I don't think it should be within any plane whatsoever. It's a meeting place of the FR gods and should have its own little dimension like the one we have now in the Tree cosmology.
Listen folks: I chomped at the bit quite a few months after I first read the Tree cosmology in the FRCS... I used Planescape quite a lot in my 2nd edition FR games. But with the PGtoF, the thing now makes quite a lot of sense. Read it all and give it a chance! it did wonders for my campaign, as the planar scholars now have a concrete, orderly cosmology to discuss amidst themselves! not some ragtag wheel where every god from every universe ends up thrown into... like into dryer tumbling at dry-low... Wanna know where Bane, Savras, Mystra or Shaundakul lives? BAM! you can now know this right away, with no fuss, using a FORGOTTEN REALMS sourcebook!!
My argument here is that we should rejoice that the FR have risen above the old D&D Core: it's now been elevated to a universe of its own. There was a lot of talk two-three years ago that FR was to become the "true D&D core world." (i.e. meaning that Greyhawk was not really cutting it anymore, given how majestic the Realms have become) |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 04:05:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Listen folks: I chomped at the bit quite a few months after I first read the Tree cosmology in the FRCS... I used Planescape quite a lot in my 2nd edition FR games. But with the PGtoF, the thing now makes quite a lot of sense. Read it all and give it a chance! it did wonders for my campaign, as the planar scholars now have a concrete, orderly cosmology to discuss amidst themselves! not some ragtag wheel where every god from every universe ends up thrown into... like into dryer tumbling at dry-low... Wanna know where Bane, Savras, Mystra or Shaundakul lives? BAM! you can now know this right away, with no fuss, using a FORGOTTEN REALMS sourcebook!!
My argument here is that we should rejoice that the FR have risen above the old D&D Core: it's now been elevated to a universe of its own. There was a lot of talk two-three years ago that FR was to become the "true D&D core world." (i.e. meaning that Greyhawk was not really cutting it anymore, given how majestic the Realms have become)
And I still don't agree. Planescape and the Wheel/Ring makes more sense to be then any thing within the 3/3.5 FR books since there is more then 20 Planescape books, over a hundred FR novels and sourcebooks that also explain how the Wheel/Ring interacts. The new planes to me make absolutly no sense what so ever and there is no need for me to rise above the D&D core because the Wheel/Ring has always been FR's planar alignment. Hells Ed even wrote up the Nine Hells way back in Dragon for the Wheel/Ring.
I happen to like having a "rag tag" wheel that makes more sense then just having the FR powers sealed away inside of thier own planar arrangement. The FR books from 2e didn't list where the gods live? Funny but there was a whole trilogy of such books, as well as a whole Planescape book and also a box set that did the same.
It's not hard to figure out where the souls of other worlds go either. I happen to think that's a poor excuse for not liking the planes. :) Do all the souls of people who die here on Earth (if you believe in the after life) go to Heaven? What if you don't worship God but the norse powers, or the egyptian powers, or the celtic powers, etc. It's still not hard to figure out where the souls of each prime world go since each prime world or even our world has different beliefs on where souls go when they die.
To be honest though there are parts of FR's afterlife that I never cared for even back in 2e. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 30 Apr 2004 04:22:26 |
|
|
|
Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 04:22:45
|
quote:
WOTC: Many of our artists do not have compasses and frankly it is easier to draw a tree freehand than a circle.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 30 Apr 2004 04:24:14 |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 05:06:14
|
Oh well...
Someone had the boldness to give me something I didn't know about the Realms, and I won't put down WotC for it. If you want to keep buying the same stuff, over and over again, every time a new edition comes out, then that's fine. I'm just saying I don't mind being surprised once in a while.
To be 100% honest with you, I've used my 2nd edition books about 4 times since the release of 3rd edition. I figure that if I spend all my money on a new edition, I ought to give it a try and stop converting the old stuff/canon/rules every time a new edition rolls out.
Like I said before: I loved the Planescape stuff. If they had converted it to 3.0/3.5, and coordinated their write-ups with the FR team, then I'd still love/use them. Now I just keep the stuff until I hit a good gaming auction... The FR team went a different, new and creative way. I'm one of the few who likes the change. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 05:48:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Oh well...
Someone had the boldness to give me something I didn't know about the Realms, and I won't put down WotC for it. If you want to keep buying the same stuff, over and over again, every time a new edition comes out, then that's fine. I'm just saying I don't mind being surprised once in a while.
To be 100% honest with you, I've used my 2nd edition books about 4 times since the release of 3rd edition. I figure that if I spend all my money on a new edition, I ought to give it a try and stop converting the old stuff/canon/rules every time a new edition rolls out.
And some one had the nerve to up and change things without explaining them except by saying "It's always been this way, but no one knew it." Yea great.
I've said it before, I wouldn't mind the changes IF they give a in game reason why such changes occur. But it insults us when they change things and the only excuse we get is "It's always been this way, but no one knew it." That's lame and a poor man's excuse.
I've used my 3/3.5 FR at the most maybe ten times since I bought it, except for parts of the FRCS. However my Planescape and older FR material gets referenced over and over because its better then the 3e material that is packed with more classes, feats, spells, magic items, etc.
I'd rather keep buying new stuff over and over then buying a sourcebook that retcon's things over and over again. There was no reason to retcon the planar structure when it was firmly established in the older material. I know many others have said, me included, if they change it, at least give us a reason beyond "It just has always been like this." Then we wouldn't have complained so much about it. Its a insult to the gamers who have been playing in FR for years when they keep retconning these things without giving a in game reason why. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 08:31:09
|
Well, you know, explaining away a little thing like a rearrangment of the planes is a little difficult.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that you can use both of them at the same time. It would need a bit of reworking of the new version, of course, but I think it's possible. The unfortunate thing is I'm not experienced enough with the old Planescape setting, so I can't really do it myself. Perhaps the fan-based 3e PS will help me . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 08:34:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I've said it before, I wouldn't mind the changes IF they give a in game reason why such changes occur. But it insults us when they change things and the only excuse we get is "It's always been this way, but no one knew it." That's lame and a poor man's excuse.
Ok, I agree with you on that one... it's hard to believe they don't have at least one good storyteller working for them. We know they DO have such great people, and it would be easy to have them whip a story that would explain a "cosmic shift of all FR planes to a new, Ao or Chauntea-spawed galactic tree." That would make for a good novel too, come to think of it... But who knows? maybe it's the editing side of the house that is more than often to blame...
quote:
I'd rather keep buying new stuff over and over then buying a sourcebook that retcon's things over and over again. There was no reason to retcon the planar structure when it was firmly established in the older material. I know many others have said, me included, if they change it, at least give us a reason beyond "It just has always been like this." Then we wouldn't have complained so much about it. Its a insult to the gamers who have been playing in FR for years when they keep retconning these things without giving a in game reason why.
Ok, I see your point. Why fix the "wheel" if it's not broken right? [ducks incoming punslayer arrows...] |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 30 Apr 2004 09:00:52 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2004 : 08:57:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I've used my 3/3.5 FR at the most maybe ten times since I bought it, except for parts of the FRCS. However my Planescape and older FR material gets referenced over and over because its better then the 3e material that is packed with more classes, feats, spells, magic items, etc.
The 2e Planescape setting was from the outset a campaign devoted almost entirely to fluff. In nearly every PS tome you pick up, the amount fluff would normally outweigh the amount of crunch. That's not to say that the PS tomes were 'crunch-lite', it's just that the designers understood what gamers were looking for at the time, and that, in such a revolutionary setting, long bouts of complicated rules could only serve to drive players away.
There's crunch in PS, but it's only in areas where it is specifically needed. In areas where parts of the setting are better explained through rules, rather than fluff.
The fluff-aspect was what originally drew me to the setting. I'm proud to admit that I've never ever purchased a game accessory for any edition (1e/2e/3e) that was based solely on the crunch content. It's part of the reason why I haven't picked up the Unearthed Arcana tome yet. Most of the content is optional, and most of it has been covered in other settings in some limited degree.
I regularly use all of my 2e PS material (which is everything that has ever been published for the setting by TSR) in my 3e campaigns regardless of the setting. This is of course excepting the Dragonlance world, which has had an alternate cosmology for nearly it's entire existence as a game world. Even my Ravenloft campaigns (both 2e and 3e) use the unaltered 2e 'Great Wheel' cosmology.
The 2e Manual of the Planes really defined the planar structure in terms of the AD&D gaming environment, and, not surprisingly, it was always a regular reference book for nearly every PS DM. I don't know of a single DM who runs a PS campaign now, in 2004, that doesn't have his/her copy of the 2e MotP sitting atop of the newer 3e version.
What does that all tell us...?
I can say more, but I have to get back to class .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 11:36:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's not to say that the PS tomes were 'crunch-lite', it's just that the designers understood what gamers were looking for at the time, and that, in such a revolutionary setting, long bouts of complicated rules could only serve to drive players away.
There's crunch in PS, but it's only in areas where it is specifically needed. In areas where parts of the setting are better explained through rules, rather than fluff.
Except for those horrible, *horrible* tables to check your priest's new caster level and each magic item's new bonus based on the distance from its 'home plane'... ARGH!  If I played PS back in 2E, those would have been put at lightspeed into the 'Sesquipedalian Dungeon of Intentionally Forgotten Pages'. |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
|
|
|
D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 07:20:20
|
I actually liked those tables. Afterall, on the planes, the effects of some abilities must be restrained, or at least regulated to a degree.
|
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
|
|
Cha0tic g0od
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2004 : 21:28:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Yes, it does seem like TSR was much better, doesn't it? I can't help but wonder what the next big excuse will be... "Gee, Drizzt is evil now because we needed more evil characters to balance out the Realms..." 
I would def. flip out if they do that. How I long for the days of TSR. I guess I was lucky enough to fall into 2 copys of PGF, but after some of the confusion and clarifing(here) I am glad I got the book |
My mini list: http://maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=Cha0tic%20g0od
|
|
|
|
Keravin
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2004 : 12:45:00
|
There are books I buy for Crunch - which is why my campaign is using stuff from both Unearthed Arcana and Arcana Unearthed - but FR books are not those books.
I had been looking forward to PGtF because I was hoping for a book I could hand to my players and for them to delve into and find strands they wanted to follow up as characters. In fact much like the old Player's Guides to Dragonlance and FR.
What I got was a mishmash of updates (which largely could have been released as erratas on the website) and a frankly pathetic timeline update that barely covered anything outside the novels.
It's the first 3e FR book I have been disappointed with. I realise some of the others may not have been as in depth as previous edition FR books, but the design was great and I found things that evoked the realms for me even in areas I do not run things in. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2004 : 13:00:56
|
I loved the 2e Player's Guides to both the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms settings. For a period they were the one solitary resource that I drew upon when I was looking for quick facts about both settings. They were also very useful as introductory aids, although I never did find anyone who thought the FR player's guide was better (in terms of information content) than the DL player's guide...
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2004 : 13:46:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I never did find anyone who thought the FR player's guide was better (in terms of information content) than the DL player's guide...
Well met
Oh, I found the FR tome much, much better, Sage
Alas, I believe this scroll has become quite off-topic of late (as have a fair number of others in the library), lets all try to keep things in order. Thank ye. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
|
|
|
|
Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 00:59:26
|
Well, here's my two cents...
I did feel that in some way the change from 3.0 to 3.5 did need to be addressed in FR and i do feel that the idea of a book to do that could have been a good one... However i'd agree that its execution left a lot to be desired. Perhaps this information could have been given away as Web material... or sold in a much smaller paperback.
I did like the update to the Regional rules (i felt they were needed), but even so they were riddled with errors and missing references (plus the odd mislabeled picture) which just strikes me as sloppy. At least there was an acknowledgement that Mountain Orcs live outside of the North.
And the campaign update, which could have been so promising, was laughably wasted explaining the events of only two series of novels... where was an attempt to give the DM some plot hooks with some new events made specifically for in game use? They could have been so much more bold and daring. 
And as for the change from the Great Wheel... well i never even played a game exploring the Planes, but i thought the cosmology of the D&D worlds was established perfectly well before, and enabled some sense of a shared existence between say, Greyhawk and FR. To just randomly change it overnight without reason was pointless and downright confusing. I for one won't be paying that change any attention and given the controversy i wouldn't be surprised if Wizards coveniently forget about the change in their future FR products as well. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 01:31:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
I for one won't be paying that change any attention and given the controversy i wouldn't be surprised if Wizards coveniently forget about the change in their future FR products as well.
Doubtful, since many, many of us have been complaining about it for at least two years. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 01:50:28
|
Ah well... we can live in hope can't we?
I don't even use the planes much in my gaming (i probably will when my current group reaches high levels) but i always felt a standard cosmology reinforced how each campaign setting was just another prime material plane and they were all interlinked.
So i'll stand in solidarity with those who want to get the whole thing changed back to the Great Wheel!  |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Player's Guide to Faerun - Comment
