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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2004 : 03:06:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
And the campaign update, which could have been so promising, was laughably wasted explaining the events of only two series of novels... where was an attempt to give the DM some plot hooks with some new events made specifically for in game use? They could have been so much more bold and daring. 
Yeah, I know it wasn't much and focused on only two novel series. But, there was a time I thought it wouldn't be included at all. So, <shrug> something at least. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 20:14:00
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Has anyone got a comprehensive list of all the Planes detailed in the Cosmology section of the Player's Guide, and their corresponding layer within the Great Wheel?
That could help us all reconcile the two cosmology together...
Way I see it, I was happy that FR designed their own cosmology because I found it too easy for a character to plane shift rub shoulders with "foreign worlds'" deities (like Greyhawk or Krynn).
Now, there's the added hurdle of going through the Shadow Plane, which is exciting in its own.
However, on a cosmic scale, in order to reconcile the old cosmology with the new, one could say that all the FR Planes are STILL within the Great Wheel, but that the FR gods (through Ao or a concerted effort of the gods within the Cynosure) have effectively isolated their domains from all non-FR souls... FR Planar travelers must now go through the Plane of Shadow to bypass the "Phaerimm-like Soul Barrier" (PSB) and visit the old Great Wheel planes surrounding the Tree Cosmology.
In other words, the FR Tree cosmology could be a "subset" of the Great Wheel, some sort of private god domains that have been fenced out from the rest of the Great Wheel, for cultural preservation...
Now, I know most of the FR planes were listed in Planescape, but some of them have new names within the 3.5 Cosmology, so is there someone here who has done the arduous work of finding assigning each 3.5 PGtoF plane to a specific plane or layer of the Great Wheel? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 20:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Has anyone got a comprehensive list of all the Planes detailed in the Cosmology section of the Player's Guide, and their corresponding layer within the Great Wheel?
That could help us all reconcile the two cosmology together...
Way I see it, I was happy that FR designed their own cosmology because I found it too easy for a character to plane shift rub shoulders with "foreign worlds'" deities (like Greyhawk or Krynn).
Now, there's the added hurdle of going through the Shadow Plane, which is exciting in its own.
However, on a cosmic scale, in order to reconcile the old cosmology with the new, one could say that all the FR Planes are STILL within the Great Wheel, but that the FR gods (through Ao or a concerted effort of the gods within the Cynosure) have effectively isolated their domains from all non-FR souls... FR Planar travelers must now go through the Plane of Shadow to bypass the "Phaerimm-like Soul Barrier" (PSB) and visit the old Great Wheel planes surrounding the Tree Cosmology.
In other words, the FR Tree cosmology could be a "subset" of the Great Wheel, some sort of private god domains that have been fenced out from the rest of the Great Wheel, for cultural preservation...
Now, I know most of the FR planes were listed in Planescape, but some of them have new names within the 3.5 Cosmology, so is there someone here who has done the arduous work of finding assigning each 3.5 PGtoF plane to a specific plane or layer of the Great Wheel?
That's the problem most of us have with the Tree. According to the designers, FR HAS NEVER been a part of the Wheel/Ring, so there is no need to make such a list.
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm2.showMessage?topicID=812.topic |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 May 2004 20:44:58 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 00:52:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
That's the problem most of us have with the Tree. According to the designers, FR HAS NEVER been a part of the Wheel/Ring, so there is no need to make such a list.
http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm2.showMessage?topicID=812.topic
Hmm... after reading the SKR thread, I think SKR's point of view makes sense. Yes, it would have been nice to have an official reason as to why the new cosmology came along, but if FR was forced into the Great Wheel in the first place, then it's less of an issue for me. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 01:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Hmm... after reading the SKR thread, I think SKR's point of view makes sense. Yes, it would have been nice to have an official reason as to why the new cosmology came along, but if FR was forced into the Great Wheel in the first place, then it's less of an issue for me.
His view doesn't make since since there are over almost 20 years of FR material that deals with the Wheel/Ring. Hells Ed even wrote the original article for the Nine Hells in Dragon. :) So now the FR material is forced to conform to the Tree and thus leaving glaring holes in FR lore. Consistency is a word WOTC needs to learn but that won't happen because they seem to just like changing things willy nilly each time a new sourcebook comes out. The new Tree breaks what Ed said way back in 1e in the first box set. Tyr, Mielikki, Lovatiar, Tyche, and Oghma were all part of the pantheon's that are found here on Earth. Now 3e has to retcon that even more since "We don't want to pollute FR with deities that come from other settings." BAH! This also goes back to the 3e designers removing deities from FR (like the fey deities) "Because thier were to many."
Yes TSR was as bad but at least they usually gave us a reason WHY such things changed, not "It's always been this way, or it was a race that no one has ever heard of before, but abracadabra, it just returned from a place it has been hiding out at for all these years."
Also if they really wanted to get away from the Wheel/Ring, then stop shoe horning in features from that cosmology. Sigil, the Staircase, the Worldtree, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 May 2004 01:51:19 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 02:01:17
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Well, I guess I do not feel as strongly as you on this subject. I still think it would be neat if someone with a list of "where do these FR planes fit within the Great Wheel" would share it with us... 
If nobody has such a list here, I might dust off my old Planescape material and try to figure this out...  |
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Sachiel
Acolyte
Australia
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 03:45:17
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I have yet to purchase this sourcebook (lack of gold pieces  ), but could I ask someone here with the book to provide me with a brief listing of the prestige classes presented inside?
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"Maybe all those people who think me a fool are onto something."
-- Danilo Thann, "Elfshadow" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 04:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiel
I have yet to purchase this sourcebook (lack of gold pieces ), but could I ask someone here with the book to provide me with a brief listing of the prestige classes presented inside?
Arcane Devotee
Divine Champion
Divine Disciple
Divine Seeker
Evereskan Tomb Guardian
Eye of Horus-Re
Hammer of Moradin
Harper Agent
Hathran
Incantatrix
Justiciar of Tyr
Monk of the Long Death
Morninglord of Lathander
Purple Dragon Knight
Runecaster
Shaaryan Hunter
Shadow Adept
Shadow Theif of Amn
Spellguard of Silverymoon
Zhentarim Spy |
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Sachiel
Acolyte
Australia
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 06:05:26
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Thankyou SiriusBlack .
I have one additional question about the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian'. How many class levels does it have?
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"Maybe all those people who think me a fool are onto something."
-- Danilo Thann, "Elfshadow" |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 06:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiel
Thankyou SiriusBlack .
I have one additional question about the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian'. How many class levels does it have?
5. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 06:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiel
Thankyou SiriusBlack .
I have one additional question about the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian'. How many class levels does it have?
I'd like to add to that, if I may.
Has anyone actually used this class yet? I'm just wondering about player experiences concerning this PrC, and whether or not it is really as effective in hunting exercises as the stats make it sound?
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 08:50:21
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It's a five level class. And one that I think could not be used very far from Evereska, and certainly not as a PC.
I personally consider it a silly excuse for a prestige class. It's so extremely specialized that I can't imagine may ways that it could come into a campaign. Though I suppose it's easily adapted to being an elite temple guard.
But really. They're never supposed to let people touch the tombs, but apparently it happens often enough for them to have a class ability to track the evildoers down.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
But really. They're never supposed to let people touch the tombs, but apparently it happens often enough for them to have a class ability to track the evildoers down.
LOL! Well, I guess the mindset there being, if the characters take this prestige class, the DM is eventually going to give them someone to track who has robbed a tomb. Otherwise, endless guard duty will be very boring. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sachiel
Thankyou SiriusBlack .
I have one additional question about the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian'. How many class levels does it have?
You're welcome. Kuje31 and Bookwyrm have answered your question on the Evereskan Tomb Guardian's levels. However, if you have any other questions regarding the PGTF, just let us know. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:20:43
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
But really. They're never supposed to let people touch the tombs, but apparently it happens often enough for them to have a class ability to track the evildoers down.
LOL! Well, I guess the mindset there being, if the characters take this prestige class, the DM is eventually going to give them someone to track who has robbed a tomb. Otherwise, endless guard duty will be very boring.
You think a character is going to take this? No way. After all, there's no unbalancing combat powers to be found-the best would perhaps make for a nigh-unstoppable sneak attack. It's on my "I'd like to try this" list, but I'm not sure when it will see play, or even if. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
You think a character is going to take this? No way. After all, there's no unbalancing combat powers to be found-the best would perhaps make for a nigh-unstoppable sneak attack. It's on my "I'd like to try this" list, but I'm not sure when it will see play, or even if.
Good point. I would have enjoyed much more some write ups detailing NPCs that were Evereskan Tomb Guardians as I felt it was something more encountered solely when interacting with an NPC. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
It's a five level class. And one that I think could not be used very far from Evereska, and certainly not as a PC.
I personally consider it a silly excuse for a prestige class. It's so extremely specialized that I can't imagine may ways that it could come into a campaign. Though I suppose it's easily adapted to being an elite temple guard.
But really. They're never supposed to let people touch the tombs, but apparently it happens often enough for them to have a class ability to track the evildoers down.
It's comforting to see that I was not the only one thinking this. When I first read the entry, the first thought that struck me was, "How exactly will this class be useful in a non-elven tomb campaign?". If and when I run an FR campaign, and if and when the party make their way to Evereska (depending upon the year of course), this class might be useful, but really, how many times are characters going to try and breach an elven burial chamber to get at the treasures inside. It's really a poor excuse for adventure material really, and I'm still surprised that it was actually allowed to be included.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 14:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
You think a character is going to take this? No way. After all, there's no unbalancing combat powers to be found-the best would perhaps make for a nigh-unstoppable sneak attack. It's on my "I'd like to try this" list, but I'm not sure when it will see play, or even if.
Good point. I would have enjoyed much more some write ups detailing NPCs that were Evereskan Tomb Guardians as I felt it was something more encountered solely when interacting with an NPC.
Yes-it's perhaps the most narrowly focused of the FR PrCs so far, and really needed explanation to show how it could be used beyond guarding tombs, if at all. It's interesting to note how different it is from the average PrC-tied to a specific event, in a specific area, and designed expressly for that event.(And ow, this monitor is making my eyes hurt.) |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 21:25:48
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I don't believe it was ever intended for players use. Which is a good thing in my book. I've always been a strong supporter of the idea that many prc's should be npc only. Dedicating one's life to fulfilling a very specific niche would lead to the sort of specialization that prestige classes represent.
Many of the demihuman races have specific guardian prc's designed for them (dwarven defender, halfling outrider, and Breachgnome for example). These prc's represent people who have dedicated their lives to defending their homes and people. This sort of obligation and dedication do not lend well with gallavanting around looking for trouble through adventuring.
As a result, it would take a very convincing background to play a dwarven defender or tomb guardian in a game I run.
Sarta |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 10:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I don't believe it was ever intended for players use. Which is a good thing in my book. I've always been a strong supporter of the idea that many prc's should be npc only. Dedicating one's life to fulfilling a very specific niche would lead to the sort of specialization that prestige classes represent.
Many of the demihuman races have specific guardian prc's designed for them (dwarven defender, halfling outrider, and Breachgnome for example). These prc's represent people who have dedicated their lives to defending their homes and people. This sort of obligation and dedication do not lend well with gallavanting around looking for trouble through adventuring.
As a result, it would take a very convincing background to play a dwarven defender or tomb guardian in a game I run.
Sarta
That's also the way I've interpreted many of the PrCs presented in the various D&D materials from time to time. I'd just naturally assumed that the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian' was supposed to be seen as a viable NPC class, useful only for when the party was visiting Evereska and such. This would easily answer why the class would be so ineffective once the party leaves Evereska, especially if the 'Evereskan Tomb Guardian' was being used by a PC.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 14:59:44
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I agree about the use of PrC's for NPCs. I believe the correct use of PrCs is to explain their chosen specialisation through role-play, which is something that PCs often can't afford to do.
PrCs can jazz up an NPC, but should be given justification for their use of the PrC through background/role-play. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 18:10:17
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D20 Magazine Rack has a new review up for this product:
http://www.d20zines.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1084&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
Overall, a positive review. I did find the following excerpt interesting:
quote:
I was very disappointed that the sidebars on Faerûnian names, monastic orders, paladin orders, and the like had been omitted. Though arguably the province of the DM, I found that these sidebars really added a lot of flavor to Realmsian characters and I was sorry to see them go. They were especially well-served for newcomers to the Forgotten Realms.
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Edited by - SiriusBlack on 21 May 2004 18:12:32 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 18:19:46
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It must be Player's Guide Friday as an ENWorld reviewer also has a review up for this product:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=JoeGKushner&product=FRPGtF
The following is a portion from this review
quote:
Now one chapter that I pretty much skipped over is Campaign Journal. I know that some may find it hard to believe that I didn’t give it a solid reading but to be honest, it’s my Forgotten Realms when I GM. I hardly need WoTC to tell me what’s going on, especially since my fiction reading has fallen way behind. While I’m sure that there are many who want to know about the Return of the Archwizards and the War of the Spider Queen, I don’t. It’s great information for fans of the fiction and for those who want to incorporate it, but from what friends have told me, these series haven’t concluded yet despite going on for over a year in some cases. To me, this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the Realms.
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 10:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
It must be Player's Guide Friday as an ENWorld reviewer also has a review up for this product:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews/index.php?sub=yes&where=active&reviewer=JoeGKushner&product=FRPGtF
The following is a portion from this review
quote:
Now one chapter that I pretty much skipped over is Campaign Journal. I know that some may find it hard to believe that I didn’t give it a solid reading but to be honest, it’s my Forgotten Realms when I GM. I hardly need WoTC to tell me what’s going on, especially since my fiction reading has fallen way behind. While I’m sure that there are many who want to know about the Return of the Archwizards and the War of the Spider Queen, I don’t. It’s great information for fans of the fiction and for those who want to incorporate it, but from what friends have told me, these series haven’t concluded yet despite going on for over a year in some cases. To me, this is one of the biggest weaknesses of the Realms.
Well from this portion of the review, ill read no more! Must be one of those "novels arent canon" people! Whilst the Campaign Journals chapter could have been much bigger and better, it was wise to include it. It would just have been better to have it expanded to include other events rather than just the WotSQ and Shade return.... a section like the old "Current Clack" from older FR products. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 10:38:20
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"Biggest weakness"? 
 Hel-LO! That's how the Realms got started!
Stupid [censored] little [censored].  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 10:43:50
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Well, this last review doesn't surprise me .
Joe Kushner has a reputation for penning bad FR product reviews. He lets his bias show through nearly every time he puts finger to keyboard, especially with regard to FR and DL.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 10:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
"Biggest weakness"?
Hel-LO! That's how the Realms got started!
Stupid [censored] little [censored].
::quickly clamps on the chains and shackles around Bookwyrm::
Quick, Scribes, the resident dragon is about to unleash his anger
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 11:00:35
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::The Bookwyrm simply sniffs at Lord Rad, and walks right through the chains. He sits down at his desk and starts working, one hand fingering the charm of lesser ironguard in his pocket.::
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 14:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Well from this portion of the review, ill read no more! Must be one of those "novels arent canon" people!
I can't recall if from messages he has posted if that reviewer has expressed such sentiment. I will say this much, ENWorld and its reviewers are very "interesting."
quote:
Whilst the Campaign Journals chapter could have been much bigger and better, it was wise to include it. It would just have been better to have it expanded to include other events rather than just the WotSQ and Shade return.... a section like the old "Current Clack" from older FR products.
Nothing mentioned of any events that took place in the Sembia novels, correct?
Yes, I remember the sections that used to be in older FR products. I just feel that is a time that has passed and will not be returning to any time in the near future. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 14:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Stupid [censored] little [censored].
I can't recall if that "reviewer" is an ENNIES judge as well. |
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Player's Guide to Faerun - Comment
