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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2004 : 18:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
If any explanation is needed of the Silvermoon mythal -- assuming that Silver Marches is correct about it -- it's why older sources didn't mention it, the most obvious one being that its rulers wanted to keep information from their enemies; sometimes those fixes are fun and interesting, other times they're pedantic wastes of time.
The lack of an explanation is where I have the problem. Even though multiple sources, both about mythals and about Silverymoon, failed to mention it having a mythal, I could swallow it having one so long as there was an explanation for the discrepancy -- and the unreliable narrator is too cheap a cop-out. That ranks just below "and then they woke up and realized it was all a dream."
I like to point at the Time of Troubles as an example of how TSR handled overt changes. Though there were some changes between first and second edition, those changes were not terribly huge. And yet they staged a grand event to explain it all.
Now, with 3.x, we have all these things changing all over the place, and we get no explanations beyond "it/they were always there, but no one knew" or "well, we just decided that this needed to be different."
I'm not saying I want another Realms-shaking event. All I want is an in-game explanation for some of these things. Unfortunately, in-game explanations aren't crunch, so we're not being given them. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 06:53:52
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I'd say it ranked just above, not below, but maybe that's just me. 
I'd suggest picketing the WotC offices in protest, but considering how much attention they seem to be paying to our complaints (must less actual realmslore), they'd probably walk right through us without even noticing we're there . . . |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 16:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I'd suggest picketing the WotC offices in protest, but considering how much attention they seem to be paying to our complaints (must less actual realmslore), they'd probably walk right through us without even noticing we're there . . .
No, they'd turn to security once they entered the building and say something like:
WOTC Official: "Get those weirdos off the property. The Eberron folks will be here later today and I don't want them to be bothered in the slightest."
Guard: "Aye master. It shall be done."
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2004 : 22:43:34
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I bought the PGTF for the new material. I looked at the timeline and other errata, but I had to have the book for the PrC hammer of Moradin, of course. Even after I printed out the free preview!
Now, are some of the changes intentional, or are they mistakes. That is my first question. When another product (novel usually) covers the changes then I tend to overlook the problem as something they would have changed, but someone else was addressing the problem and they didn't want to spoil the fun. When it is clearly an editing error then, yes, it is annoying. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 00:02:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
No, they'd turn to security once they entered the building and say something like:
WOTC Official: "Get those weirdos off the property. The Eberron folks will be here later today and I don't want them to be bothered in the slightest."
Guard: "Aye master. It shall be done."
Heh, I can just imagine... 
"Joe, go cast Disperse Unruly Crowd."
"Again? That's the fourth time this week!" |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
Edited by - Shadowlord on 21 Apr 2004 00:02:50 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 00:54:09
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| Something along those lines can be found here. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 10:47:16
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Some of Mark's better work . . .
I remember reading that particular article a few weeks ago, although I was a little 'disturbed' at first when reading about the internals of Magic's R&D.
If fact, it could explain alot about MTG's current direction  .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 14:18:49
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Ok got one for you
How Silverymoon has a Mythal
Silverwood was once a part of the High Forest until loggers cut it off from the rest of the High Forest. Back in the days when the Silver Wood was a part of the High Forest an Sun Elf city called Myth Adolfhaer once located on the land that Silverymoon would one day be built. For reasons unknown the elves of the city cast a powerful spell which took the city from toril and sent it to an unknown Demiplane where its citizens await in statis.
While the High Magic spell was able to shift the city, its buildings and its population to the demi plane it was unable to move the citys Mythal. But without the city and its High Mages the Mythal began a slow decline as its magic slowly drained away. by the time Moonsilver Inn was built the Mythal had almost totaly gone, no doubt the Mythal would have faded away to nothing had not a Chosen of Mystra not taken up residence in the city. While Alustriel was unaware of the faded Mythals existence the Mythal benefited from her presence. The Chosen of Mystra have the power to hurl Silverfire an almost pure form of magic and over the years Alustriel used it on several occasions and on at least one occasion (when Sammaster was killed) at least 3 Chosen used it at the same time, the Mythal was able to absorb some of the Magic that was released everytime the Silverfire was used in the city. The Mythal was thus able to suvive and even recharge itself.
During the Time of Troubles when gods walked the land and magic went wild the Mythal was able to reassert itself as a fully functional Mythal, after the Gods returned to their homes and magic was restored Alustriel was able to harness the newly recharge Mythal and use it to protect he city.
A few historical adventure hooks
1) What would happan to Silverymoon if the conditions that would allow Myth Adolfhaer to return where met, potentially the elven city would rematerialise in the middle of the Silverymoon potentially destroying both cities
2) Can the Myth Adolfhaer return so long as Silverymoon exists? If it cant are there Sun Elves out there with a vendetta against Silverymoon ie they seek to destroy the city so Myth Adolfhaer can return?
3) Have some of Myth Adolfhaer elves already returned? I seem to reacall there was reference to some Ancient and disorientated elves as an encounter in either the old Savage Frontier or Waterdeep and the North Accessorys from 1st edition.
4) What conditions might trigger a return of Myth Adolfhaer?
Potential triggers
a) The elves never got on well with the Netherese a possiable trigger might be "If Netherese Arcanists ever return to threaten Faerun" in which case Shades return may trigger Myth Adolfhaer awakening
b) The Elven retreat has been going on for centuries, the elves of Myth Adolfhaer may have disagreed with it and put themselves into stasis instead, the condition could be "If the Elves decided to return to the mainland" then Myth Adolfhaer will return
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36794 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 15:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ok got one for you
How Silverymoon has a Mythal
Silverwood was once a part of the High Forest until loggers cut it off from the rest of the High Forest. Back in the days when the Silver Wood was a part of the High Forest an Sun Elf city called Myth Adolfhaer once located on the land that Silverymoon would one day be built. For reasons unknown the elves of the city cast a powerful spell which took the city from toril and sent it to an unknown Demiplane where its citizens await in statis.
While the High Magic spell was able to shift the city, its buildings and its population to the demi plane it was unable to move the citys Mythal. But without the city and its High Mages the Mythal began a slow decline as its magic slowly drained away. by the time Moonsilver Inn was built the Mythal had almost totaly gone, no doubt the Mythal would have faded away to nothing had not a Chosen of Mystra not taken up residence in the city. While Alustriel was unaware of the faded Mythals existence the Mythal benefited from her presence. The Chosen of Mystra have the power to hurl Silverfire an almost pure form of magic and over the years Alustriel used it on several occasions and on at least one occasion (when Sammaster was killed) at least 3 Chosen used it at the same time, the Mythal was able to absorb some of the Magic that was released everytime the Silverfire was used in the city. The Mythal was thus able to suvive and even recharge itself.
During the Time of Troubles when gods walked the land and magic went wild the Mythal was able to reassert itself as a fully functional Mythal, after the Gods returned to their homes and magic was restored Alustriel was able to harness the newly recharge Mythal and use it to protect he city.
A few historical adventure hooks
1) What would happan to Silverymoon if the conditions that would allow Myth Adolfhaer to return where met, potentially the elven city would rematerialise in the middle of the Silverymoon potentially destroying both cities
2) Can the Myth Adolfhaer return so long as Silverymoon exists? If it cant are there Sun Elves out there with a vendetta against Silverymoon ie they seek to destroy the city so Myth Adolfhaer can return?
3) Have some of Myth Adolfhaer elves already returned? I seem to reacall there was reference to some Ancient and disorientated elves as an encounter in either the old Savage Frontier or Waterdeep and the North Accessorys from 1st edition.
4) What conditions might trigger a return of Myth Adolfhaer?
Potential triggers
a) The elves never got on well with the Netherese a possiable trigger might be "If Netherese Arcanists ever return to threaten Faerun" in which case Shades return may trigger Myth Adolfhaer awakening
b) The Elven retreat has been going on for centuries, the elves of Myth Adolfhaer may have disagreed with it and put themselves into stasis instead, the condition could be "If the Elves decided to return to the mainland" then Myth Adolfhaer will return
Interesante ideas...
But the Retreat began in 1344, and it's pretty much over and ignored by now. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 16:18:29
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It depends on when you consider the retreat starting, the retreat for the Elves in the Dalelands may have started in 1344 but other elves left alot earlier and some Elven centres like Everska never retreated never happaned at all.
In hind sight it could be argued that the Retreat began when the First elf left Faerun for Evermeet. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2004 : 17:51:54
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| Yes, very interesting ideas, Dargoth. I believe Steven Schend posted something about Myth Adolfhaer in this topic. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 04:55:12
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I've bought this book now. I'll make a review later, if people would like that, the same way I did for The Complete Warrior.
Before I do, though, I'd like to point out something. Remember the stink raised here about the changing of drow skin color to "grey" in one of the books?
Well, what about the change in dwarven subraces, as shown on page 20 of the PGtF? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 05:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Well, what about the change in dwarven subraces, as shown on page 20 of the PGtF?
That's not a change, that's an error. Rich knows about that and he has commented on it and it should be in the errata. It's not an outright change but a mess up. :) Like having Improved Spellcasting feat in the Arcanist write up even though no such feat even exists. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 25 Apr 2004 05:05:15 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 05:06:10
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I know.  I just thought it was funny. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 13:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I've bought this book now. I'll make a review later, if people would like that, the same way I did for The Complete Warrior.
Actually I would like that. Your initial review of the Complete Warrior tome was what prompted me to pick it up and start reading.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 17:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I know. I just thought it was funny.
When my gaming group saw it, the dwarf among us was speechless. "My whole life has been a lie..." |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 07:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Actually I would like that. Your initial review of the Complete Warrior tome was what prompted me to pick it up and start reading.
Then it would be redundant in this case, wouldn't it? You started reading it before I did.
Shadowlord, was he gold or grey? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Then it would be redundant in this case, wouldn't it? You started reading it before I did.
Actually no, I didn't. I'd only glanced at areas of the book in relation to what you'd provided about Jack Archer. Other than that, the rest of the book was ignored, for a time - until your review .
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:19:36
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| No, I meant the PGtF. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:32:25
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Well again, no that's not the case. I haven't finished the PGtF yet either. Aside from the 'Regions and Feats' chapter, and the detailed PrCs, I still have the other chapters to read through.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:44:34
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| Well, understandably, I'll have more to talk about with some parts than others. For instance, I'm likely going to completely ignore the Epic material. Same with some PrCs, I'd think. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:04:31
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Well, I can understand ignoring the Epic material, but the PrCs?. Care to explain?.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:09:55
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| Just not so much I can comment on unless I do a line-by-line analysis of each PrC. Considering it's copyrighted, I doubt that's a good idea for me to do on Candlekeep. After all, if I were to do that, most of the workings of each PrC would be republished here. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:21:07
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Ah, I understand. I don't think there was any OGL content in PGtF anyway.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 12:03:10
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I truly enjoy the Player's Guide to FR. Epic stuff or otherwise, I tip my hat to the FR team on this one, especially to James Wyatt for the Cosmology section. The additional domains listed in the Epic section (all taken from Exalted and Vile Darkness) should be restricted as Prestige Domains however, or should require a feat? I don't know, but this is one of the few areas I find sticky, as all that Exalted or Vile stuff is truly 3.0, not 3.5. IMC, those additional domains can only be taken later, so the players are required to take a Divine Disciple approach to their progression (or other domain-giving progressions). I had an issue with the sheer power of some of these domain spells, so I nerfed a few (Celestial Brillance anyone? one DAY per level?!? --> IMC has now the same duration as Daylight, thank you!!)
My favourite addition: the new regional feat system (I only modified that one by allowing regional feats to be taken at higher levels IF the they are also RACIAL feats for a particular character, i.e. Daylight Adaptation: racial feat for drow, so a drow can take it at any level) |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 13:28:42
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I must admit that I was also happy with the cosmology section. It was a definite improvement over the material presented in the FRCS. If I were to run a FR campaign now, I'd be hard pressed on deciding whether to use this new refined planar system, or the older 2e 'Great Wheel' structure.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 20:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
My favourite addition: the new regional feat system (I only modified that one by allowing regional feats to be taken at higher levels IF the they are also RACIAL feats for a particular character, i.e. Daylight Adaptation: racial feat for drow, so a drow can take it at any level)
Dang it, Purple man, you're stealing my thunder! 
I had a section all written out for that feat. I might as well post it now.
Feats
Some of these are very powerful. Some almost too much so for a first-level character. Others don’t make sense with the first-level only restriction. Exhibit A: Daylight Adaptation. I can imagine it now:
DM: You can’t have that.
Player: Why not?
DM: Your character hasn’t ever been to the surface. He can’t have become adapted to it.
Player: But the book doesn’t say I can’t take it before ever experiencing daylight.
DM: It doesn’t make sense. You need to experience daylight first, suffer through the pain and discomfort before you could possibly be adapted for it.
Player: Who cares? It’s in the rules.
DM: But you can’t be adapted to it. You’re not getting to the surface for at least three levels!
Player: I know. And it’s not going to bother my character a bit when he gets there. Isn’t it cool? |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 01:36:55
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I guess it is just me that doesn't see anything wrong with saying that daylight adaptation is a result of genetics and not constant exposure.
*sheesh* Didn't think I'd ever get into too many "nature" or "nurture" conversations when it comes to D&D.
Sarta |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 01:40:11
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| Well, be that as it may, I agree with Bookwyrm. a character must have been to the surface for extended periods of time at least once. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 06:44:15
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 You're agreeing with me again?
::The Bookwyrm begins rumaging through his collected books and scrolls.::
There's got to be something in Alaundo's prophecies about this . . . . 
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Player's Guide to Faerun - Comment
