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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 18:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Vharcaen
Hello everyone.
Im' doing some research into the history of the realms and I'm having a hard time answering some questions involving deities.
1) -7800 DR saw the Great Arrival, the djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerūn with his human and halfling slaves. I'm trying to pinpoint which deities these slaves (both human and halfling) would be worshipping.
2) I've found several references of phanteons arriving in the Realms, but can anyone tell me when the current human pantheon arrived? Or were they always there?
--- Would appreciate the input, thanks.
Hey, something made me go.... hmmmmmmm......
This big bunch of humans, halflings, and genies arrives from somewhere. We have some kind of references that say that this somewhere was Zakhara (which if anyone can find them and post them, I'd appreciate it). What if Zakhara itself was originally in Abeir and this great arrival was actually an earlier transfer/clash between Abeir and Toril? What if the Zakhara of today was previously in Abeir and the reason they have no dragons is because of their driving away of all dragon overlords?
Not sure if I like it, but figured I'd throw it out there for pondering. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 18:30:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was looking for some info earlier today, which lead me to the Piazza, and after reading a bunch of it, I realized that was all YOU. 
I compiled a lot of NV stuff for my players back when 4e was the newest edition, because they wanted to know more about the setting and, at the time, I was the only one in the group capable to read in English language (lol).
But now, is time to share this stuff will all the D&D players.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks. That does help. 4e was such a mess - everything was just one big conflict. Other editions had 'god books' (like Deities & Demigods, Powers & Pantheons, Monster Mythology, etc) - I am very surprised 4e never bothered with one for at least the Core pantheon (its very helpful if you are running a priest/cleric).
Yeah, 4e lore and fluff was rich and interesting, but it was all confusing as well (though, I remember reading in a Ampersand article that this was intentional; after all, Nentir Vale was created for DMs to use it as they see fit, and that included writers as well).
Now that I re-read my document, some of this stuff can be used for the Realms as well. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos stated that the "war against the primordials" mentioned in both the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and in the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting is the same Dawn War mentioned in "core 4e D&D" (Nentir Vale) sources.
I guess Bane would be a problem, though, because he have a role so central in the Dawn War, but if he is really FR Bane (as retconned in the 5e DMG), this would make the timeline a mess(the Dawn War happens way back in prehistory, and Bane ascended to godhood in "modern times"). However, this isn't the first time mythology screw up the timeline either... (see Heracles and the Gigantomachy).
One way to view some of this stuff with Bane COULD be that the deities are "suits" put on when a mortal ascends, and these suits are oftentimes "suits" from previous cast down entities. The newly arisen mortal can begin to influence/change the "suit" OR they can actually themselves be changed by said suit. Thus, maybe Bane was wearing the "suit" of a much older Bane, which had been donned by Jergal.... and now Iyachtu Xvim is wearing the suit of Bane. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 19:47:11
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I had something similar in mind: Basically, OUR Bane is the original 'Bane', who rose to prominence after absorbing some deific essence for the Seven Lost Gods, and then achieved full godhood when the 'The Dark Three' made that deal with Jergal (and I am now thinking Krash and Eric may have to rethink some of the Jergal stuff because of this nuisance problem). Then at some point he decided to 'go multispheric', being the God of tyranny. Now, I had pictured him using a few of his avatars to create new aspects of himself, and try to gain a toe-hold in some other Crystal Spheres. He probably also gave them autonomy (so he could 'grow back' that missing power himself). So he was disconnected from them for quite some time, hoping they were making headway, with the ultimate goal of reabsorbing them and attaining that multispheric status he wanted (thus, we had little 'Bane Babies' running around all over the cosmos LOL - one even ended up in Gotham City). 
Then (FR) Bane dies in 2e. His son, Iyatchtu Xvim, takes over his father's stuff for a time, and then 'fakes' his father's return (I know Wooly likes that - until the 4e lore came out, I wasn't on-board with that theory). Then the Spellplague hits (EVERYWHERE - it was multispheric in nature, and connected to cataclysmic events on many other worlds - it was all part of the 'Grand Conjunction'), and one of the 'Bane Babies' is able to return to toril, only to find 'dady bane' is gone (and Xvim pretending to be him). He smacks his son down and reestablishes his proper place... but now with a slightly different portfolio (because this is what happens when a god tries to establish itself in a new sphere - see Tyr for a good example). This works on most levels, because in 5e we have both Bane (in his new form) and Iyatchtu Xvim.
EXCEPT for that part about Core Bane being involved in the Dawn War. Thats a major snafu ("damn you 4e designers!" {Markus shaking his pudgy fist at the sky in rage!})I suppose we could do something with the Dawn cataclysm and that (note the similar names), but I know some folks have an aversion to 'Timey Wimey Stuff'.
When did Bane ascend, and when was the DC? (and yes, I realize I've asked these questions multiple times before... sorry). 
So at this point, with this 'new' revelation in-mind, it might just be easier to say our Bane was influenced by an already-existing (multispheric) Bane. In other words, turn what I said above upside down, and say ours was a sort of 'Baby Bane' (so more like one of those greater Manifestation from the Old Empires lore. Core Bane (and I have some ideas about who that really is as well)'seeds' mortals on various worlds with the desire and knowledge (and perhaps a smidgeon of power) to seek ascendance, with the long-term goal in mind of 'reeling them back in' when they are 'ripe'. Some of these may have even sponsored other mortals to ascend beneath them (thus creating a divine {ebil} 'pyramid scheme'), as Bane did with Mellifleur (did we ever figure-out the connection there with Velsharoon? Is 'Mellifleur' something similar to Core Bane, in that it has made mini-versions of itself throughout the multiverse?)
And apparently, the 'Dark Three' all came out of the South-Eastern Realms, connecting them to the Old Empires, and giving them some interesting possibilities as well (I'm thinking Set might be a Pharonic aspect of Asmodeus, given they are both linked to serpents).
I'm getting a headache now - I may have to rethink quite a bit of my 'Theory of Everything' (my proto-mythology that links all the others together).
EDIT:
Hmmmmm... Set's son was Anubis, who had a similar role to Charon for a time. Set was also enemies of Horus, who is Hoar in Faerūn and Bahamut in D&D/Mesopotamian myth. So if Set is Asmodeus, and Tiamet lives right outside the Gates of Hell, and Bahamut is is an eternal enemy of Tiamet, then it appears that perhaps Asmodeus is using Timamet as a 'watchdog' LOL!
Without her knowing that, of course. She IS the Queen of evil dragons, after all, and has her pride. And since Asgorath = Ahriman, and Ahriman at least sponsored Asmodeus (which I feel he did, to help smooth some of the GtH lore), then it makes some sense that one of the 'children' of Asgorath is sitting right outside her father (being that now Ahriman is The Nine Hells itself). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 20:00:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 20:49:49
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My two cents.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So at this point, with this 'new' revelation in-mind, it might just be easier to say our Bane was influenced by an already-existing (multispheric) Bane. In other words, turn what I said above upside down, and say ours was a sort of 'Baby Bane' (so more like one of those greater Manifestation from the Old Empires lore. Core Bane (and I have some ideas about who that really is as well)'seeds' mortals on various worlds with the desire and knowledge (and perhaps a smidgeon of power) to seek ascendance, with the long-term goal in mind of 'reeling them back in' when they are 'ripe'. Some of these may have even sponsored other mortals to ascend beneath them (thus creating a divine {ebil} 'pyramid scheme'), as Bane did with Mellifleur (did we ever figure-out the connection there with Velsharoon? Is 'Mellifleur' something similar to Core Bane, in that it has made mini-versions of itself throughout the multiverse?)
In my document there is his full 4e story (I just omitted the fact that Core Bane was a mortal man who killed Tuern, because, really, that one source that says this don't makes sense and contradicts like 5 other 4e core sources that says Achra was a full fledged god from the start), but here is a summary:
Core Bane was originally called Achra, and was the son of Khala (the original goddess of winter), and brother of Kord and Tuern, another war god (specifically, the god of conquest). His father is possibly Zehir (core sources say he is the lover of Khala, but no sources credit him as father of none of the three gods. And also, Zehir also dallied with Avandra —Tyche, according to the 5e DMG—).
In the Dawn War Achra was the first god who killed a Primordial, Tabrach-Ti the Bronze Queen (before that, the rest of the gods had their asses kicked handed down by the Primordials), and the Primordials feared him so much, that began to call him "Bane". Achra liked the name for the psychological impact it had in the Primordials, and began to use it as his new name. Tuern became jealous of his glory and began to interfere in Bane's plans, eventually earning Bane's hate. The guy killed him in another divine conflict (the one in which the battle between Corellon and Gruumsh took place and Gruumsh lost his eye).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So if Set is Asmodeus
5e DMG says Set is Zehir as well. Your theory about Tiamat and Bahamut sort of make sense, seeing some gods believe IO was "killed" in the Dawn War because Zehir coveted dominion over dragons and betrayed the Dragon God to the Primordials (that plan failed, though, because Bahamut and Tiamat claimed dominion over dragons before he could—mind, the rest of the draconic pantheon doesn't exists in 4e core). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Feb 2017 20:55:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 21:05:41
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That was my own Hubris.
It may not tread on 3e/4e/5e canon (and I would be surprised if that were case, given the inconsistencies between editions), but it could become problematic if one (*cough* ME *cough*) were to try and blend all of the canon bits together onto a workable, cohesive whole.
One of my ideas for all of that is to re-purpose Jergal, which they have already done. I'd have to read back though that stuff (I still haven't gotten around to reading George's version, having read Eric's, and they are supposedly almost exactly the same). That lore is VERY FR-specific, and FR has gotten even more 'multispheric' in nature than it was in 2e (back when we had no less than three settings connecting everything together). I have about 12 separate ideas on how to weave it all together, but if we should have gotten a 'Death God' - an archtype one - immediately following the events of the Godwar (or rather, following the one tragic event that started the war itself - I still thinks its on-going. Over-powers stepped in and set some ground rules, which prevents the gods from 'direct interference' with the Prime Material).
So Jergal can't possibly be this proto-power that simply 'formed out of nothingness' when "death came into the world" (universe). Well, he could, but like I said, that would squash the cool lore about him being something else.
I have to get my ducks in row - its a lot to think about. Trying to back-fill the lore about the core gods, primordials, 'Dawn War', etc into canon D&D lore, and then into canon FR lore. I'm still wavering on how to spin the Nentir Vale material into the FR stuff; I think the best approach - the one that leaves ALL 'canon' intact - is to give it the 'Ravenloft treatment', coupled with the 1e/2e presentation method of 'inaccurate 3rd person' reporting. In other words, provide a blended history, but than throw-in some bits like, "while some people remember it always having been that way, ancient elvish records tell a different story...". Basically, leave it up to DMs to decide if NV was 'always there' (preferable for gamers), or it just appeared there during the Spellplague, but no-one seems to realize that (the 'Ravenloft method', which may be more amicable to FR grognards).
And why I am even talking about that HERE is because I have to also take a step back and look at all of this multi-spherically, gods and all. Like WHY did we lose a ton of gods in FR post-3e, and yet, gain yet-another 'scaly' one? I need it to all make sense (and I follow my Nindō; - my own set of personal rules - "Use the lore to fix the lore"). As I reexamine a lot of what I've theorized before, I see where I can tweak things. For example, I only just realized today that there are a lot of coincidental(?) parallels between the FR pantheon and Egyptian Mythology (Mystra/Kelmevor, and Isis/Osiris, and their related/once-friend Set/Cyric). I can use all that. 
The easiest way to fix all of it is to connect the Dawn Cataclysm to the Dawn War, which makes a lot of sense, and makes it all simple... so simple its almost 'cheating' ("it was that way, but then someone mucked with time and now its this way"). Its just a bit too lazy going that route (because at that point, you don't even have to reconcile inconsistencies - they become part of a paradox). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 21:13:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 21:22:03
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I didn't want to make that last post even longer, but I wanted to add that the main reason why i feel we NEED to look at things multispherically at this time is because as we go through all of this (in multiple threads), I am seeing a certain pattern - Core books have always used bits and pieces of FR lore to fill in gaps in its own lore. For example, a LOT of the creation-myth stuff all works together, whatever world its from. And when Cyric killed Mystra, and the Weave collapsed, it seems to have sent perturbations throughout the multiverse. Apparently, what happens in The Realms does NOT stay in The Realms.
We could either say that FR is somehow the 'linchpin' of the universe (which is great for us, but not so great for all the other D&D fandoms), or that these events are 'reflections' of even more cosmic events, and that these reflections occur on all worlds, at varying degrees of intensity (preferable, from a 'grater D&D enthusiast' PoV). We could even say that FR 'feels it more' because of its very 'connected to everywhere' nature (one of its most basic premises). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 21:36:26 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 21:38:10
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No, not a mistake! 
I'm just saying, I could have easily shunted some of this weird (inconsistent) crap on Jergal, but now he's no longer 'up for grabs'. I just meant that someone else used one of the toys, is all. I have to dig deeper in the toybox now. 
EDIT: Umm, but, uh, yeah. Something must have still come before him, me-thinks. Some sort of 'death archtype'. Something more universal. THEN each sphere could have gotten its own local 'death god' (like Jergal). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 21:39:46 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2017 : 01:49:13
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More than a few death gods before the creation of the Faerunian pantheon. Myrkul just took a segment of Jergal's divinity and then eliminated the minor competition when the Faerunian pantheon coalesced.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2017 : 16:56:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Waukeen IS Jauhar - that may be the only deity from Zakhara that was able to establish itself, after the great Dgen migration. The rest were probably either banned by the genies, or just didn't have enough 'oomph' to go up against already-existing Faerūnian powers with similar portfolios.
[...]
So, I think your best-bet might be Waukeen, because she seems to most apt for having come from Zakhara in the first place, with Ilmatar running a close second (Ilmatar only comes in second because there is no cult anything like his currently in Al-Qadim). She's always appeared to be cut from a different cloth than the rest of the Faerūnian pantheon, IMO.
I don't see why she is "most fit" there, but why not look at possible direct connections?
Waukeen comes from the cult of the Adama from Durpar. Which resembles some Zakharan traditions - specifically the Temple of Ten Thousand Gods. From which it could be derived. And its more practical framework (that it needs, since Ten Thousand as such is but a very general philosophy) is different from the Law of Loregiver, but both are built for clannish people and pay much attention to contracts.
Durpar trades with both Zakhara (there are even many merchants who can speak Midani) and Amn.
Hard to tell which one was first, but "Waukeen = Jauhar" is quite possible either way. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 02:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had something similar in mind: Basically, OUR Bane is the original 'Bane', who rose to prominence after absorbing some deific essence for the Seven Lost Gods, and then achieved full godhood when the 'The Dark Three' made that deal with Jergal (and I am now thinking Krash and Eric may have to rethink some of the Jergal stuff because of this nuisance problem). Then at some point he decided to 'go multispheric', being the God of tyranny. Now, I had pictured him using a few of his avatars to create new aspects of himself, and try to gain a toe-hold in some other Crystal Spheres. He probably also gave them autonomy (so he could 'grow back' that missing power himself). So he was disconnected from them for quite some time, hoping they were making headway, with the ultimate goal of reabsorbing them and attaining that multispheric status he wanted (thus, we had little 'Bane Babies' running around all over the cosmos LOL - one even ended up in Gotham City).
Then (FR) Bane dies in 2e. His son, Iyatchtu Xvim, takes over his father's stuff for a time, and then 'fakes' his father's return (I know Wooly likes that - until the 4e lore came out, I wasn't on-board with that theory). Then the Spellplague hits (EVERYWHERE - it was multispheric in nature, and connected to cataclysmic events on many other worlds - it was all part of the 'Grand Conjunction'), and one of the 'Bane Babies' is able to return to toril, only to find 'dady bane' is gone (and Xvim pretending to be him). He smacks his son down and reestablishes his proper place... but now with a slightly different portfolio (because this is what happens when a god tries to establish itself in a new sphere - see Tyr for a good example). This works on most levels, because in 5e we have both Bane (in his new form) and Iyatchtu Xvim.
EXCEPT for that part about Core Bane being involved in the Dawn War. Thats a major snafu ("damn you 4e designers!" {Markus shaking his pudgy fist at the sky in rage!})I suppose we could do something with the Dawn cataclysm and that (note the similar names), but I know some folks have an aversion to 'Timey Wimey Stuff'.
When did Bane ascend, and when was the DC? (and yes, I realize I've asked these questions multiple times before... sorry).
So at this point, with this 'new' revelation in-mind, it might just be easier to say our Bane was influenced by an already-existing (multispheric) Bane. In other words, turn what I said above upside down, and say ours was a sort of 'Baby Bane' (so more like one of those greater Manifestation from the Old Empires lore. Core Bane (and I have some ideas about who that really is as well)'seeds' mortals on various worlds with the desire and knowledge (and perhaps a smidgeon of power) to seek ascendance, with the long-term goal in mind of 'reeling them back in' when they are 'ripe'. Some of these may have even sponsored other mortals to ascend beneath them (thus creating a divine {ebil} 'pyramid scheme'), as Bane did with Mellifleur (did we ever figure-out the connection there with Velsharoon? Is 'Mellifleur' something similar to Core Bane, in that it has made mini-versions of itself throughout the multiverse?)
And apparently, the 'Dark Three' all came out of the South-Eastern Realms, connecting them to the Old Empires, and giving them some interesting possibilities as well (I'm thinking Set might be a Pharonic aspect of Asmodeus, given they are both linked to serpents).
I'm getting a headache now - I may have to rethink quite a bit of my 'Theory of Everything' (my proto-mythology that links all the others together).
EDIT:
Hmmmmm... Set's son was Anubis, who had a similar role to Charon for a time. Set was also enemies of Horus, who is Hoar in Faerūn and Bahamut in D&D/Mesopotamian myth. So if Set is Asmodeus, and Tiamet lives right outside the Gates of Hell, and Bahamut is is an eternal enemy of Tiamet, then it appears that perhaps Asmodeus is using Timamet as a 'watchdog' LOL!
Without her knowing that, of course. She IS the Queen of evil dragons, after all, and has her pride. And since Asgorath = Ahriman, and Ahriman at least sponsored Asmodeus (which I feel he did, to help smooth some of the GtH lore), then it makes some sense that one of the 'children' of Asgorath is sitting right outside her father (being that now Ahriman is The Nine Hells itself).
Just regarding the Velsharoon / Mellifleur thing, totally homebrew.... but I went with the idea that Velsharoon used a captured phylactery belonging to Mellifleur as part of his ritual of ascension (which he may have acquired during the ToT... and may have even gotten from Larloch... who may have found one of his servitor liches suddenly an avatar of Mellifleur). I also had Velsharoon having the skills of a binder and having bound the vestige of Karsus to himself while performing the ritual. He also used the "Skull Staff of the Necromancer" which was an artifact which served as a vestige phylactery. He then used magic to PULL the Faerunian avatar of Mellifleur's spirit from his phylactery, shunt him into the skull staff of the necromancer. He then used a binding ritual to bind this "vestige" of Mellifleur to himself (along with the aforementioned vestige of Karsus), then he enacted a ritual using the special phylactery of Mellifleur to turn himself into a lich and duplicate the ascension that Mellifleur went through previously. I was even playing with the idea that while the Velsharoon "mind" was in control of the Mellifleur "godhood", there's still this piece of Karsus and Mellifleur both who interact with him.
Some of this I covered in another thread a few years back (which I know Markustay has read, but just in case other newer people might like reading it)
http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17205
Oh, and for those wondering.... my mortal version of Velsharoon was not a specialist wizard necromancer. He was a dread necromancer though, so he did have a specialization of sorts with necromantic magic. I statted him as a non-specialist wizard, a dread necromancer, and a binder. It would have been horribly underpowered at the early levels, but would have paid off later.
5th wiz (note: 5th lvl gained after epic) / 1st dread necro/ 10th ultimate magus / 1st binder / 10th anima mage / 3rd loremaster / 2nd archmage |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Feb 2017 02:26:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 03:50:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I see a map at the beginning, and its got a date of -6048 DR, so still not back far enough to that timeframe.
Anyway I can get you to send me a copy of the map? 
Thats one I haven't got, and my pdf copy is text-only.
You won't be impressed. Its just a city map. I just finished this by the way. It was a bit of a fun reread. Some notes I made
Races: Rhinaur (centaur like Rhino folk) and Manscorpions in the area
Year of the Great Arrival is "different" than whats in the GHotR. The map is "current year" for part of the story, and that is -6048 DR and whenever they flashback, the chapters say "383 years after the great arrival". That would put the Great Arrival at -7325 DR.
Cities back then. Coramshan, Oxonsis, and Zubat
Known Gods: Selune, Shar, Ibrandul, Bhaelros
Possible Gods: Khises the Hippo Hero (half man, half hippo); there is a reference to the "Dark Spectre that watches with nine eyes" who may also be "the Grim One".... and this appears to be some kind of death god maybe; there is also a reference to "Blind me, Orus of the Thousand Eyes";
I wonder if there might not have been some kind of beholder deities or somesuch worshipped in the area, especially since there was a hive kind of nearby at one point. At one point, Ed also mentioned Iltyr as a giant floating eyeball that was related to Tyr (though this didn't resemble a beholder other than it was a big eye). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 07:25:40
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Oxonsis and Zubat? I've got nothing on those - any info?
I assume the map is of Calimport? I'm having a brain-fart right now - isn't Coramshan another name for Calimshan, or is it an old name for Calimport? Its real late here - I have to check that in the morning.
Khises the Hippo Hero sounds an awful like Shajar from down in Zakhara.
The other two sound like 'beings' from Newhon/Fritz Leiber novels - Nigauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face. Their god Issek is our Ilmater (even though the name comes from Finnish Ilmatar), and we have a Newhon Ghoul in FR canon (so now I have to wonder if the 'Great Arrival' actually came from Newhon instead). On the other hand, genie-kind are extra-planer beings, and genies that get summoned on one world could easily serve on many others. It could just be the genies scooped-up some servants from there, Imaskar-style (and by doing so, we got some of their myths & traditions, and maybe even one of their gods... who took the name of a Finnish {Gur/proto-Netherese} god who's power and worship was dying off). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2017 07:27:36 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 13:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oxonsis and Zubat? I've got nothing on those - any info?
I assume the map is of Calimport? I'm having a brain-fart right now - isn't Coramshan another name for Calimshan, or is it an old name for Calimport? Its real late here - I have to check that in the morning.
Khises the Hippo Hero sounds an awful like Shajar from down in Zakhara.
The other two sound like 'beings' from Newhon/Fritz Leiber novels - Nigauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face. Their god Issek is our Ilmater (even though the name comes from Finnish Ilmatar), and we have a Newhon Ghoul in FR canon (so now I have to wonder if the 'Great Arrival' actually came from Newhon instead). On the other hand, genie-kind are extra-planer beings, and genies that get summoned on one world could easily serve on many others. It could just be the genies scooped-up some servants from there, Imaskar-style (and by doing so, we got some of their myths & traditions, and maybe even one of their gods... who took the name of a Finnish {Gur/proto-Netherese} god who's power and worship was dying off).
The map is of the city of Cursrah. Its not heavily detailed. Palace. Temples of Selune and Shar. Royal family dwelling. Unnamed surrounding buildings.
According to the novel, 52 years prior to -6048DR is when the fight between Calim and Memnon happened and they disappeared. (so -6100 DR)... This actually matches up with GHotR.
Oh, and I did my math wrong on the earlier post... -6048DR -383 years = -6431 DR for the "great arrival". Granted, new lore trumps old, so GHotR wins with -7800 for Calim... -6800 for Memnon.. plus I like the djinn timeline being longer.
Yeah, I guess there are 3 main cities I should have mentioned in this novel.
Cursrah. The City built by the genies in service to Calim. As a result, everything is perfectly "formed" and "fitted" together (which makes it easy to take apart too. Its out in the middle of Calimshan and its got a great acqueduct built by the genies that delivers water from the mountains. The city is heavily dependent on this aqueduct. "The Bakkal" is the ruler of this city, and his purpose appears to be not to serve the living, but rather to commune with the spirits of the dead which are entombed in the city. When he knows his city must fall, his concern is not for the people, but rather to take apart his city and its wealth, store it away, and magically suspend himself, his court, and his soldiers to come back and rebuild his city for a later day.
Oxonsis. A "working class" / "warrior" city. Samir Pallaton is a prince of the city.
Zubat - city of rich, effete nobles, arts and culture near to Coramshan. It is forced to become a vassal of Coramshan whenever times grow rough, and Coramshan requires them to conquer the city of great Calim - Cursrah.
Royal nobility are known as Samirs and Samiras.
This section below is the best for describing layout. Note, in the below, I don't believe they mean the Dragon Wall of Kara-Tur obviously, but rather the fact that dragon's didn't enter Calimshan at this time. Almost like dragons and primordials don't get along.... noticing something? Very similar to Zakhara too...
"Let me begin with a map." Pallaton plied a dagger for a pointer as he said, "Here we see all our peninsula of Calim's Home, or Calimshan. Her western border is the Dragons' Wall, her northern border the River Agis. Crammed in this corner, penned by mountains and the river, verging on wilderness, stands Oxonsis, my wild and free homeland. At the far south, verging on the Shining Sea, sprawls Coramshan, biggest and boldest of our seaports cities. Close to Coramshan huddles Zubat, a city of arts and culture, and eastward of everyone, isolated by desert, sits tiny Cursrah, guardian of Great Calim's Wisdom." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 16:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I see a map at the beginning, and its got a date of -6048 DR, so still not back far enough to that timeframe.
Anyway I can get you to send me a copy of the map?
Thats one I haven't got, and my pdf copy is text-only.
You won't be impressed. Its just a city map. I just finished this by the way. It was a bit of a fun reread. Some notes I made
Races: Rhinaur (centaur like Rhino folk) and Manscorpions in the area
Year of the Great Arrival is "different" than whats in the GHotR. The map is "current year" for part of the story, and that is -6048 DR and whenever they flashback, the chapters say "383 years after the great arrival". That would put the Great Arrival at -7325 DR.
Cities back then. Coramshan, Oxonsis, and Zubat
Known Gods: Selune, Shar, Ibrandul, Bhaelros
Possible Gods: Khises the Hippo Hero (half man, half hippo); there is a reference to the "Dark Spectre that watches with nine eyes" who may also be "the Grim One".... and this appears to be some kind of death god maybe; there is also a reference to "Blind me, Orus of the Thousand Eyes";
I wonder if there might not have been some kind of beholder deities or somesuch worshipped in the area, especially since there was a hive kind of nearby at one point. At one point, Ed also mentioned Iltyr as a giant floating eyeball that was related to Tyr (though this didn't resemble a beholder other than it was a big eye).
Oh, and elsewhere in the book, where it references a death god, they refer to them as she, not he. I would almost say that they were referencing Shar with the "Dark Spectre" comment, but then there's the "Grim One" and "the nine eyes" references.... plus the Bakkal seems all about DUTY.
As I thought on the idea of these multi-eyed deities and possible ties to the beholder gods. I also remembered that Ilmater is strong here, and Ed himself says he based Ilmater on Issek of the Jug of the Nehwon mythology. I also note the 4 neutral elemental lords are based upon the elemental lords of Melnibonean mythology (Grome = Grumbar, Kakatal = Kossuth, Misha = Akadi, Strasha = Istishia) , but with different names. So, it might be fun to pull from those two pantheons.
Nuru-ah - Melnibonean - Giant Cow goddess that cures sick and wounded. Could also be related to Audumbla (and thereby to my version of Bhalla).
Pyaray - Melnibonean - giant blood red octopus god of the sea deeps, which has a fleet of undead sailors using sunken ships.
Meerclar - Melnibonean - saber-toothed cat goddess. Think I may steal this one for elsewhere too. Figure Sharess/Bast/Felidae may have taken her over.
Roofdrak - Melnibonean - giant humanoid wolfhound god, master of dogs... could make a good gnoll deity besides Yeenoghu.
Ningauble of the Seven Eyes - Nehwon - he's not a god in his portrayal according to the old deities and demigods, but he watches multiple worlds from his caves near the Sinking Lands... caves that are links to multiple worlds. His eyes are on tentacles, and you never see inside his hood. I think he'd make a good god of knowledge for the area. Maybe he is "Orus of the Thousand Eyes", and eventually he is "replaced" by Savras (which could fit with Savras' symbol being many eyes in a crystal ball, and his avatar having a third eye).
Rat God - Nehwon -
Mog the Spider God - Nehwon - easiest to link this to Zanassu since the Nehwon mythos doesn't say much. Later killed by Selvetarm. Spider with a human face
Tyaa - Nehwon - winged goddess of evil birds.
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 19:57:10
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So the writer gave the place a very Young Kindoms/Old Kingdoms (Elric/Newhon) vibe, almost completely ignoring FR canon.
Because NOTHING was 'in the desert' before there was a desert.
I had always pictured early Calimshan as rolling grasslands (savanna) before the genies had their fight and created the desert. Now, because of that craptastic lore, I have to imagine it more of a 'badlands' type of place, like the old American southwest (not quite 'desert', but dry plains and scrublands).
Coramshan is NOT 'a city', it was the name of Calimshan after the Dgen fell from power.
As for those other two cities (Zubat & Cursrah) - thats easy: they existed where the desert now stands, so were abandoned. thousands of years later, there wouldn't be a whole lot left. I have to wonder why the author just didn't use Shoon? Perhaps reading a sourcebook prove too much for them?
ANYWAY... Oxonsis actually appears to be the most interesting find. Its described as both a 'city' and a 'homeland', which makes me think that Calimshan underwent a 'citystates' period (post-genie) briefly before uniting in a single nation, and that each citystate controlled a large amount of land outside the city proper as its 'demesne', which would also be called by the city-name. Using that, we can fudge the whole 'Coramshan' thing (the name of the most powerful city, and thus the name of the lands it holds sway over, which eventually becomes the name of the country, once unified). I think I'm going to have to read that novel now.
And you CAN'T steal the Melnibonean stuff for Calimshan, because I already stole it all for the Endless wastes! Vulture-Lions and Imaskari (Dharzi) Hunting Dogs are just too cool to ignore.
Homebrew Warning
As for Meerclar - that is an ancient (original?) name for Bast, who began as a 'beast Lord' and wormed her way into the Pharonic Pantheon (one of THE oldest) when she convinced a group of near-demons (Khasta) to side with the 'forces of good' during the Godwar. Working under the Pharonics, these mercenaries became known as "Ra's Khasta" (eventually Rakshasa), and they were feared for their shear brutality and total lack of remorse or pity. After the war, Meerclar (who became Baast) was accepted into their pantheon, but with two conditions - the troops she brought to Ra would now forevermore "wear her visage" (become cat-like), and she herself is charged with keeping an eye on Set (who may be Asmodeus - he was another the 'gods of good' no longer trusted after the Dawn War). So now catkind is forever 'the stalker', and 'the serpent' is forever 'the hidden slithering'.
Another, more feral aspect of Baast is Kiga, from Zakhara, who is venerated by Wereleopards (a very popular theme in K-T, BTW). I am still trying to figure out the connection between Baast and The Black Leopard (Bauh Yin) in K-T. Perhaps a mortal (demipower) son of Baast? She'd also be driving Nobanion nuts, since there is a lot shared portfolio there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 00:31:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 20:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
All major Earth pantheons were represented in the Desert of Desolation AP. The lore therein, I think, spins them as small temples to each, but I think of them more as 'research facilities', where the stored all the records they had on every pantheon in every Crystal Sphere they visited - think of those rooms like 'living museums', where you were actually inside a 'display' of a typical temple, and there were many books and items you could read and interact with for research purposes. There were probably hundreds of them that we would not even recognize, from 'strange and distant worlds'. This all makes sense within the known lore of Imaskar - they were very much interested in 'all things divine', because they themselves did not believe 'the gods' were anything more than super-powerful magi, and they were trying to replicate the process for their own ends.
And people from everywhere - not just Earth, but every corner of the mulitverse - have become 'stuck' on Toril at one time or another, so it makes perfect sense that nearly every god would have a mention somewhere in some old, dusty tome. Some gods 'stuck', and many did not. The gods of the Old Empires are actually fairly recent arrives, relatively, and they are still 'sorting things out' (which is why we lost the Untheric pantheon - natural selection at work... it was just a matter of time). Gods come and go, and mortals just try to keep track of who they are paying lip-service to this week.
EDIT:
In my Realms, 'Odin' is Annam - one of the most ancient powers in the universe. A primordial who created the Giants, and who sided with 'the good guys' (re., 'the winners'), and was not imprisoned (although he did eventually get kicked out of Realmspace for a time). He is also the same being as the Dwarven 'High God'. I toyed with connecting him to Gruumsh, because of the 'eye thing', but it just doesn't work out. He set his children (the giants and dwarves) against the dragons, because the dragons were (mostly) working for the side of chaos during the Dawn War (there is more to it than that - dragons were just 'dumb animals' initially, used like construction equipment when the universe was first being built. 'Something' awakened them, and they rebelled against their former masters). And now I am picturing the Flinstones... and Barney Rubble is a dwarf.
Loki... Loki... Satan? Nah, too mean. He's probably a really good fit for Graz'zt - a guy known for switching sides and causing mayhem whenever the mood strikes him. I have him pegged as a Dark Elf, originally, and he went through an apotheosis similar to Lolth. I suppose that would make Pale Night a (fallen?) Archfey. Maybe Pale Night was the first Queen of Air and Darkness, and she gave up that title to become what she is, and Auril (her daughter?) took it over from her. Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2017 20:24:11 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 21:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!).
Coincidentally, the beginning of the name Waukeen sounds very similar to Loki... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 23:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the writer gave the place a very Young Kindoms/Old Kingdoms (Elric/Newhon) vibe, almost completely ignoring FR canon.
Because NOTHING was 'in the desert' before there was a desert.
I had always pictured early Calimshan as rolling grasslands (savanna) before the genies had their fight and created the desert. Now, because of that craptastic lore, I have to imagine it more of a 'badlands' type of place, like the old American southwest (not quite 'desert', but dry plains and scrublands).
Coramshan is NOT 'a city', it was the name of Calimshan after the Dgen fell from power.
As for those other two cities (Zubat & Cursrah) - thats easy: they existed where the desert now stands, so were abandoned. thousands of years later, there wouldn't be a whole lot left. I have to wonder why the author just didn't use Shoon? Perhaps reading a sourcebook prove too much for them?
ANYWAY... Oxonsis actually appears to be the most interesting find. Its described as both a 'city' and a 'homeland', which makes me think that Calimshan underwent a 'citystates' period (post-genie) briefly before uniting in a single nation, and that each citystate controlled a large amount of land outside the city proper as its 'demesne', which would also be called by the city-name. Using that, we can fudge the whole 'Coramshan' thing (the name of the most powerful city, and thus the name of the lands it holds sway over, which eventually becomes the name of the country, once unified). I think I'm going to have to read that novel now.
And you CAN'T steal the Melnibonean stuff for Calimshan, because I alrea stole it all for the Endless wastes! Vulture-Lions and Imaskari (Dharzi) Hunting Dogs are just too cool to ignore.
Homebrew Wraning
As for Meerclar - that is an ancient (original?) name for Bast, who began as a 'beast Lord' and wormed her way into the Pharonic Pantheon (one of THE oldest) when she convinced a group of near-demons (Khasta) to side with the 'forces of good' during the Godwar. Working under the Pharonics, these mercenaries became known as "Ra's Khasta" (eventually Rakshasa), and they were feared for their shear brutality and total lack of remorse or pity. After the war, Meerclar (who became Baast) was accepted into their pantheon, but with two conditions - the troops she brought to Ra would now forevermore "wear her visage" (become cat-like), and she herself is charged with keeping an eye on Set (who may be Asmodeus - he was another the 'gods of good' no longer trusted after the awn War. So now catkind is forever 'the stalker', and 'the serpent' is forever 'the hidden slithering'.
Another, more feral aspect of Baast is Kiga, from Zakhara, who is venerated by Wereleopards (a very popular theme in K-T, BTW). I am still trying to figure out the connection between Baast and The Black Leopard (Bauh Yin) in K-T. Perhaps a mortal (demipower) son of Baast? She'd also be driving Nobanion nuts, since there is a lot shared portfolio there.
Actually, the desert thing isn't overblown. In the novel, its noted that the sands started spreading in the past 52 years since Calim and Memnon "disappeared" (the common people don't know what the elves did). It also notes that the clashing of the hate of these two entities is artificially hastening the desert's spread. The two cities of Oxonsis and Zubat were friendly in their grandfather's days, but the spreading of the desert is making things come to a head. The city states are headed towards war over resources. Cursrah had an aqueduct mainly due to its mass population that it once held.
There was one very jarring thing for me when they did say something about someone hiring "Tuigan Barbarians", but I just glossed over that. Another jarring thing was that the captain of Amenstar's personal guard was named "Captain Anhur"... but hey, this was two thousand years BEFORE the Mulan folk had even arrived in the world. It was also a couple hundred years before Jhaamdath started. Imaskar was around, but it was far away.
The story had a very DARK feel for it headed into the end. It felt very Pharaonic as well, due to the fact that the rulers were also "of the blood of genies". I had read the story 20 years ago, so I had a rough idea where it was headed, but it was not a bad reread just because of how it ends.
On the idea of demonic Khasta, be careful. There's also the Khaasta that served Demogorgon and later other demons, and those look like lizard/dragonfolk. They're the ones that hate the Sarrukh.
Thanks for the names of Kiga and Bauh Yin. Given my interest in Katashaka as a "beast humanoid" area, these may turn useful. Have to read up on them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Mar 2017 00:00:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2017 : 23:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Huh, and "Oden" and Loki apparently make an appearance in the story Rime Isle..... I have had Swords and Ice Magic for probably 20 years and never read it. Or at least I hope I still have it. Might be sidetracked now.
All major Earth pantheons were represented in the Desert of Desolation AP. The lore therein, I think, spins them as small temples to each, but I think of them more as 'research facilities', where the stored all the records they had on every pantheon in every Crystal Sphere they visited - think of those rooms like 'living museums', where you were actually inside a 'display' of a typical temple, and there were many books and items you could read and interact with for research purposes. There were probably hundreds of them that we would not even recognize, from 'strange and distant worlds'. This all makes sense within the known lore of Imaskar - they were very much interested in 'all things divine', because they themselves did not believe 'the gods' were anything more than super-powerful magi, and they were trying to replicate the process for their own ends.
And people from everywhere - not just Earth, but every corner of the mulitverse - have become 'stuck' on Toril at one time or another, so it makes perfect sense that nearly every god would have a mention somewhere in some old, dusty tome. Some gods 'stuck', and many did not. The gods of the Old Empires are actually fairly recent arrives, relatively, and they are still 'sorting things out' (which is why we lost the Untheric pantheon - natural selection at work... it was just a matter of time). Gods come and go, and mortals just try to keep track of who they are paying lip-service to this week.
EDIT:
In my Realms, 'Odin' is Annam - one of the most ancient powers in the universe. A primordial who created the Giants, and who sided with 'the good guys' (re., 'the winners'), and was not imprisoned (although he did eventually get kicked out of Realmspace for a time). He is also the same being as the Dwarven 'High God'. I toyed with connecting him to Gruumsh, because of the 'eye thing', but it just doesn't work out. He set his children (the giants and dwarves) against the dragons, because the dragons were (mostly) working for the side of chaos during the Dawn War (there is more to it than that - dragons were just 'dumb animals' initially, used like construction equipment when the universe was first being built. 'Something' awakened them, and they rebelled against their former masters). And now I am picturing the Flinstones... and Barney Rubble is a dwarf.
Loki... Loki... Satan? Nah, too mean. He's probably a really good fit for Graz'zt - a guy known for switching sides and causing mayhem whenever the mood strikes him. I have him pegged as a Dark Elf, originally, and he went through an apotheosis similar to Lolth. I suppose that would make Pale Night a (fallen?) Archfey. Maybe Pale Night was the first Queen of Air and Darkness, and she gave up that title to become what she is, and Auril (her daughter?) took it over from her. Just rethinking some things... i really like Loki as Graz'zt... it makes so much sense (horned hat and all!).
Yeah, Annam does sound like Odin in some respects, but his kids just don't fit Odin for me. That's why I prefer that he's some other giant from the lore.
Actually, my favorite take for Odin in the realms actually involves the death of Thor in this crystal sphere during the shadow epoch, and his giving of his portfolio of Thunder/Lightning to his father. Then Odin turns dark... and changes his name to Talos. He also hates Primordials, killing them and taking their power and name (so he killed Bhaelros when said Primordial showed up).
My take for Loki is Valigan Thirdborn (god of anarchy whom Tyr shows up to combat in the remnants of ancient Jhaamdath).
And of course, I firmly believe Helm is Heimdall.... sat at the top of a rainbow bridge (celestial staircase) leading into heaven as a guard???
The other ones, not thinking they're here any longer.... though I wouldn't mind say having the Metahel still worshipping some of them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2017 : 00:57:24
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Just rereading (and rethinking) some of what I said earlier...
Why couldn't Annam be the 'father of the Norse pantheon'? Loki's considered a 'half-giant' afterall - maybe it was really on his father's side.
So if Loki is Graz'zt, then Pale Night shacked-up with Annam, and begat Loki/Graz'zt, and mortals are just getting it backwards - that the father, not the mother, was a 'Celestial (Jotun) Giant'.
And since I think Graz'zt and Araushnee are brother & sister, that makes Pale Night a former archfey. Not sure who Lolth's father would be - I already used Maelkith as the father of Gru-mass (Gruumsh). Then again, they all got around, especially Fey, so if Maelkith begat Lolth on Pale Night (it sounds like a fey name, doesn't it?), and he begat Gruumsh on her sister Titania, then that would make Pale Night the original QoA&D, who gave up her title to Auril (her daughter?), and parts of her portfolio to Shar (Shar may also be an Obyrith - seriously, i think we are 'splitting hairs' differentiating between Obyriths and primordials). It would also make Guumsh and Lolth both cousins and half-siblings (Gruumsh remains unrelated to Annam), and Corellon would be Gruumsh's twin brother (by s different father - Frey, of the Vanir), and Lolth's cousin (which I had assumed anyway - just figuring a new personage as 'the mother'). Maybe its good that Titania was replace with Tiandra in 4e (Tiandra then being the daughter of Titania, and the granddaughter of Danu/Pale Knight).
That fixes some stuff for me - after 4e made Auril the 'Queen of Air & Darkness' it broke some of my lore (Auril doesn't sound like "Lolth's mommy"). Pale Knight is a perfect fit for an archfey (and probably something even more ancient - keep her as an Obyrith; beings of this magnitude can be whatever they want). In fact, a LOT of the original 'Elder Gods' can be Obyrith. They may have been a race of quasi-deities from the Far Realms - the universe that preceded this one in my own homebrew cosmology (technically, the 'Far Realms' is whats left of that first universe - it would have had no need for that title - or any title for that matter - when it was the 'only show in town').
Hmmmm... that would mean the goddess I had pegged as Titania's (and the QoA&D's) mother - Danu - would have to have been an Obyrith. She created the fey race. That would mean I'd have to rewrite Pale Knight as a half-Obyrith (maybe - it would depend on who HER father was). Maybe Anu? Could Anu have also been an Obyrith? I suppose its possible. Titania and Auril could have had the same mother, but different fathers (seems to be a running theme in my proto-cosmology). On the other hand, Anu is more likely a primordial, and like I said, the only difference between them and Obyriths is probably what universe they were born in (Thus, Obyriths were the 'primordials' of their universe - the first universe).
Oh Geeze - I was trying to find a connection to Ki (a fairly obvious choice for a 'fey goddess' that went mainstream), which lead me to Anu, and now that I am looking at a Sumerian 'family tree' I am circling right back to Tiamat again. 
EDIT:
Holy Crap! I just read that 'Danu' is sometimes spelled/pronounced 'Anu' - I just went full-circle again! Maybe some one told Pale Knight to go f___ herself?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2017 01:17:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 02:22:46
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More food for thought - perhaps the pharonics are indeed one of the most ancient pantheons (so quite a few of their number would not be ascended mortals - some might even be primordials), and thus have a very heavy 'elemental' connection to things? It would make sense that they were tied to genies, since genies are the 'minions' of the Outer planes - perhaps the pharonics ruled over Dgen before some elementals became corrupted, and became demons? Maybe Ra & Co. were the first to notice things were "starting to go awry" just before the Godwar got under full swing.
They could have initially has something similar to the Celestial Bureaucracy using all those tasked genies, and when the rebellion started, they lost their 'empire'/control/whatever.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the idea of demonic Khasta, be careful. There's also the Khaasta that served Demogorgon and later other demons, and those look like lizard/dragonfolk. They're the ones that hate the Sarrukh.
Thanks for the names of Kiga and Bauh Yin. Given my interest in Katashaka as a "beast humanoid" area, these may turn useful. Have to read up on them.
I am aware of the Khaasta - in fact, that part of where I got my idea from. They are the 'mercs' on the lower planes. We know at some point demogorgon 'freed them' (very uncharacteristic - are we sure they weren't mercenaries all along?), and some of the lore also says he created them. Conundrum? Hardly... If you ignore the D&D (and FR) Wiki entries for him and go right to wikipedia (for the REAL dude), its says - quote:
Demogorgon, although often ascribed to Greek mythology, is attributed to a fourth-century scholar, imagined as the name of a pagan deity or demon, associated with the underworld and envisaged as a powerful primordial being, whose very name had been taboo.
So if primordials and 'primal dragons' were basically the same thing (ideas we've been bouncing around in several threads), lets just imagine that RW canon trumps D&D canon for just a sec - perhaps Demogorgon was something else before he was a Demon Lord; we know (as of 4e) that demons are corrupted elementals, and what is a primordial, other than an uber-elemental? So, if he was a primordial, then he could have 'fashioned' the Khaasta race way back when, on that First World, in his likeness, making them a very early 'dragonborn' prototype (this all occurred before he absorbed the Mandril Beast lord ). But seriously, I've seen art wherein he looks much less 'simian'.
Later, when the Godwar breaks out, and the Pharonics are looking for any help they can get against their rebelling Dgen, Meercla/Baast shows up with a large group Khaastas in tow, and offers them to Ra. The deal is that they will fight on the side of 'law', but forevermore the 'gods' must ignore them and not meddle directly in their affairs (which unfortunately gives them free access to the mortal realms - and other planes - later on, something most fiends do not have). All the gods of Law had to agree, and they did so, albeit the Vedic pantheon did so reluctantly (it may have even be one of the reasons why the Aesir {Assuras} and the Vedics {Vanir} went to war later on).
After the war, some Khaasta were caught feeding on the 'corpse of Ymir' (the material world), and were chased by Vishnu. Ra decreed to Meerclar (who would now take the name 'Baast' in the Pharonic Pantheon) that these Khaasta - Ra's Kasta - would have to wear the visage of Baast for all eternity because of their behavior during the war (the face of hungry beasts). This is why Rakshasa are all so good at illusion and beguiling magic - no-one really knows their true forms.
In other words, they DID look reptilian (and many still do), but this particular group was forced to look more like Baast, which they didn't mind since they wanted to distinguish themselves from the other khaasta anyway. When the Great Wheel was created, and the New multiverse built from the fragmented old, the gods were forced to keep their promise, and khaastas/Rakshasa are one of the few groups of fiends that can move freely about on the Prime Material (and even enter the upper planes!) without being accosted, deterred, or detained by 'gods', or other agents of the divine (unless, of course, they break some other rules, which they do, but are careful to hide it).
At a later date, Demogorgon's Khaasta armies fought against the Monkey lord Sugriva, which ended with demogorgon absorbing Sugriva, but such was Sugrivas strength that even as he dissolved into Demogorgon, the Archfiend grew a second head, and both heads bore the visage of Sugriva (because in Vedic mythology, the Rakshasas fought against the Monkey King Sugriva). It was then that Demogorgon had his uncharacteristic 'good' moment and freed the Khaasta. Everything's connected.
Occasionally Sugriva is able to push the surface, and the two heads fight. Monkey - the K-T deity - is the son of Sugriva, and hates demogorgon fiercely (its the one thing he is always serious about). The Vedic pantheon, BTW, IS canonically active in lower K-T.
EDIT:
And I almost forgot the most important part - In Mystara, OD&D, the catfolk there are called 'Rakasta', which I believe is what got me first going with this crazy theory. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2017 02:30:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 22:42:41
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I like some of the above. The idea of the Pharaonic pantheon having tasked genies and some being primordials for instance. Also, given the roles of many of the "early" Pharaonics, I can see them as primordials who later created an outer planar domain (i.e. Heliopolis). Ptah easily fits. Anubis easily fits, and his role as a defender of dead god's bodies becomes even more interesting.
Just to try and work out the supposed Mulhorandi family tree... According to Mulhorandi (rather than Egyptian) creation myths, Ra is the original father instead of Atum... though both are very similar and related entities (Atum is the setting sun and is serpentine, Ra is the rising sun). Anyway, in the Mulhorandi myth, Shu (air) and Tefnut (atmospheric condensation) are born of Ra, and they produce Geb (earth) and Nut (sky). Geb and Nut then produce Isis, Set, Osiris, and Nepthys (who are more like traditional gods). Osiris produces Horus with Isis. Thoth is a sister of Isis, but not a child of Geb and Nut.... so either he's a child of Geb and Hathor or Nut and Ra??? No idea where Bast and Anhur are "birthed" from in canon lore.
Hmmm, interestingly, in RW mythology Anhur and Bastet are brother and sister, and Anhur sometimes appears as a lion-headed god. You know, I had considered having Bast/Sharess/Felidae over in Katashaka. I'm thinking it might be interesting if the whole pantheon was over there now (not as a dominant religion, but...), given its animal likenesses.... could also be interesting since I'm also putting red wizards there. Having them finding their traditional "divine" enemies found amongst a totally different population could be fun. I've got some Ibideans who would be great with Thoth. Set and Sebek would also work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2017 : 23:39:51
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Hmmm, and back to the original poster's question for a second. There was the section in the book that talked about Khises the half man half hippo hero. There's also a reference to "Skahmau the Wolfshead".
The opposite wall was painted with a scene from legend: at the bottom of the Mother of Rivers, the hippo-here Khises battled Skahmau the Wolfshead.
There's also a reference in an earlier thread to Skahmau when Amenstar leaves the death worshipping Vizars, and it says
"Those slimy sons of Skahmau," Star said to herself. "I'll die before I ever let them touch me again"
I'm not quite sure whether to read that literally (as in Skahmau is the deity worshipped by the Vizars) or if she's just cursing.... feel like its more of the latter. However, that does also open up possibly another deity as Skahmau the Wolfshead. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 02:24:56
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Do any of the Uthgardt have a Wolf totem? You may want to start there.
Just checked - the Grey Wolf tribe, and interestingly, they can all shape-shift into wolves.
We also have the 'Wolf-Spider' Miska (wolf-headed spider, so thats an oddity), and there is also the Werewolf god in Monster mythology, Daragor (he may actually BE the Grey Wolf spirit, or rather, it has absorbed/replaced the beast totem, since it doesn't behave as other best totems, with the whole lycanthropy thing).
EDIT:
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2017 02:30:36 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 04:30:53
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According to 4e (Monster Manual 2), ettins were created by Demogorgon from the blood of a defeated primordial of earth and stone. Ettins are no proper giants (at least, in 4e terms) as they weren't created by the titans.
BTW, 4e has another "ascended" creature into a primordial: Balcoth. He was originally a titan that became way too powerful, and eventually gods and primordials began to consider him a primordial on his own. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Mar 2017 04:32:28 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 05:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought.
In the 4e Tomb of Horrors remake, it's revealed that Amoth, a god of justice and mercy, almost split Demogorgon in two before Orcus slew the god. Not sure if there's any other lore on Demogorgon talking about his two heads. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Question about history and deities
