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Vharcaen
Acolyte
Belgium
2 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 11:57:20
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Hello everyone.
Im' doing some research into the history of the realms and I'm having a hard time answering some questions involving deities.
1) -7800 DR saw the Great Arrival, the djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerūn with his human and halfling slaves. I'm trying to pinpoint which deities these slaves (both human and halfling) would be worshipping.
2) I've found several references of phanteons arriving in the Realms, but can anyone tell me when the current human pantheon arrived? Or were they always there?
--- Would appreciate the input, thanks.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 13:48:48
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Not necessarily any at all. If any, it's tied to their origin, and Calim was booted from either:
A: Plane of Air. The most obvious choice is Akadi. Also, others deities of the Inner Planes (those perceived as being "at odds" with the djinn in general would be worshipped secretly). Or
B: Zakhara. See deities of Al-Qadim, including obscure and "forgotten" ones. Also including the elemental ones.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 13:51:38
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I cannot answer the first, but the second I can.
According the 3rd edition Campaign Setting, Selune and Shar were the first gods (or goddesses) of Realmspace. They created both Chauntea and Mystril when they wanted to create life in Toril. Then, happened the Dawn War against the Primordials. The 4th edition Campaign Guide states that most of the other gods of Toril appeared in this period, either created as a consequence of the conflict, or summoned from other worlds to help the native gods against the Primordials. A few Primordials also switched sides in the war and were considered gods by people of Toril (ie. the elemental gods such as Akadi, or strange gods such as Ubtao).
I guess most the current Pantheon gods, however, were created during the Netheril Empire. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jan 2017 13:55:58 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 16:29:44
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Id take the mythd and legends around the gods as just that, myths, not fact.
The modern faerunian pantheon arose from a merging of numerous more local pantheons in the centuries after the fall of netheril and jhaamdath (-339 DR to 300 DR) these included the jhaam/calishite pantheon ( which had already begun to merge), the netherese pantheon, the illuskan pantheon, and a number of other minor gods that occupied small locales that arose and survived.
Or you can go with the greek epi-comedy that has become the godfables of faerun.
For the ancient human and halflings of calimshan. Come up with some names (look through the empires of the shining sands sourcebook and calimshan for ideas on names), then give them their own philosophies such as freedom, suffering, endurance, perseverance, revenge, etc.
These local deities could be precursors that survived and evolved into ilmater and bhaelros (the only two calishite gods that survive today that i can think of, maybe umberlee as well) or they could have died iut over the millenia and been replaced.
Try not to think of the gods as static. Churches are fluid in real life (just look at the last 1000 years on earth) so do the same with FR, Ed himself wrote that new cults and religions appear each year and most fade away within a decade. Old religions die, new ones are born. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 17:17:10
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The issue there is that in D&D the gods are actually there to tell you: "that legend you heard? Completely true". And then there are races like the aboleths saying "I was there, and yes, that god as well". For me, taking that into account, is really, really hard to dismiss the facts about gods as mere legends (unlike in the real world).
But I got curious about your theory as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 17:32:25
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| Yes, gods almost never explain legends and myths, and--as Ed said--they can indeed lie. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 20:42:20
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Priests also have the 5th-level Commune spell. Although I'm sure even the most loving and social of gods will eventually tire of pointless chitchat, ignore his constantly ringing spellphone, and start limiting use of the spell or - so much worse! - begin to use each casting as an opportunity to "enlighten" the priest with instruction, lectures, and homework. 2E offered a Quest-level priest spell which could "force" the deity to immediately and directly converse with the casting priest, but the spell description sternly warns against untimely or trivial misuse because deities will indeed become quite aggravated by involuntary interruptions of their normal tasks. Contact Other Planes is not at all guaranteed to address any sort of diety - far more likely some sort of proxy or random planar inhabitant who is often quite "clueless" about things on the caster's muddy little Prime world. And I'd expect that most deities would prefer to channel visitor requests through their clerical receptionists, lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Forgotten_Realms_deities
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Deities |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 01:05:46
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I see. The theory is really interesting, but doesn't explain all stuff. Like the existence of Ao. A being so powerful cannot be created by mortals who hadn't a unified vision of the universe (the many races of the Realms have different cultures and such).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 01:16:05
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No one is saying that deities are not real beings. They very much are. The point was that the knowledge that mortals have of the events surrounding them, and especially surrounding Ao, is usually very unreliable. Only in recent events mortals became very involved with deities and gods became very much "in your face", deprived of most of their mystery (I mean, they have been offed like flies at WotC's whim, often for no valid in-world reason, just for "shock value" or to force a new design on the setting, and then they have been brought back en masse, often with only a vague explanation. They have been cheapened).
Ed's gods are indeed real, but they almost always communicate with mortals through dreams, visions, omens, signs, emotions, messengers or effects that are specific to them. Their manifestation in physical form is usually very rare, and while there are some deities who like a more direct contact with mortals, even they don't spell out the facts for their followers.
And Ao--who, btw, was not part of Ed's Realms and was added essentially as a deus ex machina for the ToT--always stays out of mortals' affair. He ignores mortals, and no one knows anything meaningful about him- |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jan 2017 01:18:20 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 02:11:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Vharcaen
Hello everyone.
Im' doing some research into the history of the realms and I'm having a hard time answering some questions involving deities.
1) -7800 DR saw the Great Arrival, the djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerūn with his human and halfling slaves. I'm trying to pinpoint which deities these slaves (both human and halfling) would be worshipping.
I'm intrigued. Why?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 04:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
And Ao--who, btw, was not part of Ed's Realms and was added essentially as a deus ex machina for the ToT--always stays out of mortals' affair. He ignores mortals, and no one knows anything meaningful about him-
Didn't knew about this. Was he a creation of All in One? (I mean, the writer that was in fact many writers). But this solves a few doubts I had. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 08:38:09
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The only mortal that he ever had a conversation with - AFAIK - is Elminster (but technically El is a demi-power anyway, because he's a Chosen, so there's or loophole).
Ao also made most everyone 'forget' all about him and the events that transpired over Waterdeep at the end of the ToT. And although 'the gods' look up to him with awe (most, anyway), he has a boss, and he's probably little more than a 'cosmic caretaker' for Realmspace (picture an old gardener/maintenance man who lives on an old English estate - like that). Like they say, "theres always a bigger fish".  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 14:47:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Didn't knew about this. Was he a creation of All in One? (I mean, the writer that was in fact many writers). But this solves a few doubts I had.
You mean "Richard Awlinson"? Idk if it was an idea of the authors, but I think that it's more likely that he came from TSR (if WotC tells their authors what must happen and what cannot happen, and dictates any meaningful change, then I guess TSR did too). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 16:41:04
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| Well, forgotten realms wiki's article on Calimsham say the slaves comes from Zakhara (its Source, Empires of the shining sea, a book i dont have). If that quote is correct, I'd guess the Zakharan Pantheon. |
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Vharcaen
Acolyte
Belgium
2 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 18:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Vharcaen
Hello everyone.
Im' doing some research into the history of the realms and I'm having a hard time answering some questions involving deities.
1) -7800 DR saw the Great Arrival, the djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerūn with his human and halfling slaves. I'm trying to pinpoint which deities these slaves (both human and halfling) would be worshipping.
I'm intrigued. Why?
-- George Krashos
Well... to make a very long story short, it's for a backstory of a campaign I'm working on. A human, a halfling an elf and a dwarf stop a great evil and bind it below the High Moor. The relics used for the binding were bestowed by their gods... and now the evil stirs again... time for my party to do the same. That and I'm kind of a perfectionist... I'm toying with the idea of putting it on the DM's Guild after I'm finished (already at about 200pgs typed out) but In my mind I can only do that if I cross the 't' and dot the 'i's ... I have no problem with inventing some new gods... but I want to make sure I'm not trampling over some part of Realms' lore... and where does one go to find out about Realms' lore? Right... Candlekeep :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 19:27:24
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There are some pretty cool gods down in Zakhara, and a couple are even the same as Faerūn's (most under other names, and some even from demi-human pantheons). One - Kiga - may even be an aspect of Baast.
I picture our own Valkur being the son of Zakhara's Hakiyah (of the sea Breezes), probably begat with a Faerūnian mortal (and perhaps even a counter to Umberlee gaining power in the south). Alternately, he may just be someone she sponsored - perhaps some sailor that became famous in the southern waters, between the two settings.
I think Waukeen IS Jauhar - that may be the only deity from Zakhara that was able to establish itself, after the great Dgen migration. The rest were probably either banned by the genies, or just didn't have enough 'oomph' to go up against already-existing Faerūnian powers with similar portfolios.
I think Ilmatar may have come from Zakhara, but is himself no longer worshiped there, for whatever reason - he really does make an ideal 'slave god', and his main region of worship is in Calimshan and the Lands of Intrigue.
Shaundakul may be the Zakharan power Haku, trying to get a foothold in the north.
Selan the Beautiful Moon is kinda obvious. 
Etc, etc., so, in theory, some of these gods may outright BE Faerūnian powers, who may have emigrated in either direction (and there could be others that did the same with Kara-Tur, that mixed with the other two major settings).
So, I think your best-bet might be Waukeen, because she seems to most apt for having come from Zakhara in the first place, with Ilmatar running a close second (Ilmatar only comes in second because there is no cult anything like his currently in Al-Qadim). She's always appeared to be cut from a different cloth than the rest of the Faerūnian pantheon, IMO.
Oh, and if any god really needs to emigrate to FR its Najim, the fun-loving god of adventurers. I think any of the Harpers that Ed writes would follow that guy.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2017 19:41:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 20:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, I think your best-bet might be Waukeen, because she seems to most apt for having come from Zakhara in the first place, with Ilmatar running a close second (Ilmatar only comes in second because there is no cult anything like his currently in Al-Qadim). She's always appeared to be cut from a different cloth than the rest of the Faerūnian pantheon, IMO.
Pretty sure she's the only OGB deity that Ed didn't create. She's a Jeff Grubb creation. IIRC, of course. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 21:52:45
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| I thought Ilmater was male in the 1E OGB and 2E FRA, lol. Not that a deity's (or avatar's) physical race/gender/age/appearance really matters much, of course, although an assigned gender does suggest or reinforce identity perceptions and general campaign flavour. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2017 : 23:40:40
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Ilmater IS male - we were talking about Waukeen, who has always been female, and has a certain 'Middle-Eastern' vibe to her. My use of '( )' may have thrown you off - I could have written that a little better.
EDIT: On the other hand, I misspelled the name 'Ilmatar', who IS female... and Finnish. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2017 23:43:18 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 16:18:25
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| Regarding the deities of the human/Halfling immigrants.... do we have any kind of reference in ANYTHING (GHotR... didn't see anything) to when the events of "Star of Cursrah" happened and roughly where this took place? I'm thinking its more likely to be down in the Shaar area than the Calimshan area, but I was thinking the two were close. I read through that book in a whirlwind almost twenty years ago, so I don't remember much, but I'm thinking I'm headed back to review it for historical purposes next now that I finished the Erin Evans books (which I recommend Ashes of the Tyrant/Devil You Know). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 18:07:39
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I haven't read it, but I just found a copy on my HD, and on the first page it says 1369 DR, and starts in the city of Memnon, in Calimshan.
However, since I haven't read it, the book could go elsewhere geographically, and some of the events may have 'flashbacks' to an earlier point in time that I am not aware of.
EDIT:
And after a quick perusal of the first couple of pages - which is the opening scene of Disney's Aladdin - glad I passed on that one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jan 2017 18:15:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 03:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Regarding the deities of the human/Halfling immigrants.... do we have any kind of reference in ANYTHING (GHotR... didn't see anything) to when the events of "Star of Cursrah" happened and roughly where this took place? I'm thinking its more likely to be down in the Shaar area than the Calimshan area, but I was thinking the two were close. I read through that book in a whirlwind almost twenty years ago, so I don't remember much, but I'm thinking I'm headed back to review it for historical purposes next now that I finished the Erin Evans books (which I recommend Ashes of the Tyrant/Devil You Know).
Hmmm, I see a map at the beginning, and its got a date of -6048 DR, so still not back far enough to that timeframe. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2017 : 19:04:18
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| Good sourcebooks for this would be Faiths and Pantheons, Demihuman Deities, Grand History of the Realms, and probably any of the older campaign guides, like 3e or 3.5. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2017 : 23:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I see a map at the beginning, and its got a date of -6048 DR, so still not back far enough to that timeframe.
Anyway I can get you to send me a copy of the map? 
Thats one I haven't got, and my pdf copy is text-only. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2017 23:30:30 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2017 : 03:05:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Vharcaen
[br A human, a halfling an elf and a dwarf stop a great evil and bind it below the High Moor. The relics used for the binding were bestowed by their gods... and now the evil stirs again...
Why? It's conveniently out of the way, of course, but...
An elf? It's unusual if one is willing to have anything to do with the High Moor or Underdark, given any alternatives. But Undermoor? Gah. That's a combination most of them would avoid thinking about.
Also, High Moor has all those weird magical fields. Like those gravity distortions or Fire Marshes. Possibly including remnants of ancient mythals of Miyeritar wrecked when their environment was utterly destroyed by Killing Storm, too (another happy thought). Why would anyone choose such a place for any magical work that needs predictability and reliability?
If dwarves wanted anything to do with it, they already would have.
Under all that - in the Northern half drow of Eryndlyn, in Southern illithids and derro, plus grimlocks from Reeshov and the Cavern of Cloven Heads. Sounds like a nice place.
Either way, Undermoor is the domain of Vincin, or whoever happens to be the Gray Druid of the High Moor at the time. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2017 : 18:18:38
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Was there a 4e 'god book'? Not necessarily FR, mind you.
I'm just looking for info on the 4e Core pantheon, and although the 4e DMG lists a bunch, it only gives (sparse) details on a few of them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2017 : 18:52:46
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With god book you mean a mythology book? There was none. Divine Power was a crunchy book with a few fluff, but not enough fluff. The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea also has a few info about the gods, and both 4e Draconomicons (Chromatic Dragons and Metallic Dragons) have info about Bahamut and Tiamat. Monster Manual 3 have info about Lolth, and the first Monster Vault has info about Zehir in the humans entry. Demonomicon also has info of Asmodeus. There a few "Deities and Demigods" and "Channel Divinity" articles in the dragon magazines, that expand info about other gods. Bane, The Raven Queen, Moradin and Kord have entries in those articles.
The problem is that there is conflictive info in those sources. For instance, Bane. His "Deities and Demigods" article says he was a full-fledged deity from the start, and fought in the Dawn War, and was not FR Bane. In Divine Power they say instead he is an ascended mortal who killed a previous god of war and took his divinity. And them, in the 5e DMG they say both NV Bane and FR Bane are the same individual...
I have compiled the Nentir Vale history in a document. That document however, only have info of the sources I chose as canon in my NV campaign (all are Nentir Vale canon, however). The first chapters are dedicated to mythology stuff (because I really love mythology, real or fantastic). Here is, hope you'll find it useful. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 06:16:56
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Thanks. That does help. 4e was such a mess - everything was just one big conflict. Other editions had 'god books' (like Deities & Demigods, Powers & Pantheons, Monster Mythology, etc) - I am very surprised 4e never bothered with one for at least the Core pantheon (its very helpful if you are running a priest/cleric).
I was looking for some info earlier today, which lead me to the Piazza, and after reading a bunch of it, I realized that was all YOU.
I do have a solution for Bane, though. Its an expansion for an idea I had about him some time ago (and all that conflicting lore). I was going to use Greyhawk lore to patch some lore together (because its the one setting that shares a lot with both NV and FR), but Bane was actually the biggest problem, because not only does he have a different portfolio in Core, but he isn't in GH (and his FR aspect is redundant with Asmodeus... who is now in FR as of 4e). So I have to do something different with him than I am doing with all the rest (and as I said, its based on some earlier theories I had about him going 'multishpheric' at some point in the past). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 06:19:29 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2017 : 16:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was looking for some info earlier today, which lead me to the Piazza, and after reading a bunch of it, I realized that was all YOU.
I compiled a lot of NV stuff for my players back when 4e was the newest edition, because they wanted to know more about the setting and, at the time, I was the only one in the group capable to read in English language (lol).
But now, is time to share this stuff will all the D&D players.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks. That does help. 4e was such a mess - everything was just one big conflict. Other editions had 'god books' (like Deities & Demigods, Powers & Pantheons, Monster Mythology, etc) - I am very surprised 4e never bothered with one for at least the Core pantheon (its very helpful if you are running a priest/cleric).
Yeah, 4e lore and fluff was rich and interesting, but it was all confusing as well (though, I remember reading in a Ampersand article that this was intentional; after all, Nentir Vale was created for DMs to use it as they see fit, and that included writers as well).
Now that I re-read my document, some of this stuff can be used for the Realms as well. Heroes of the Elemental Chaos stated that the "war against the primordials" mentioned in both the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and in the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting is the same Dawn War mentioned in "core 4e D&D" (Nentir Vale) sources.
I guess Bane would be a problem, though, because he have a role so central in the Dawn War, but if he is really FR Bane (as retconned in the 5e DMG), this would make the timeline a mess(the Dawn War happens way back in prehistory, and Bane ascended to godhood in "modern times"). However, this isn't the first time mythology screw up the timeline either... (see Heracles and the Gigantomachy). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Feb 2017 16:51:58 |
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Question about history and deities
