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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 16:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Do any of the Uthgardt have a Wolf totem? You may want to start there.
Just checked - the Grey Wolf tribe, and interestingly, they can all shape-shift into wolves. 
We also have the 'Wolf-Spider' Miska (wolf-headed spider, so thats an oddity), and there is also the Werewolf god in Monster mythology, Daragor (he may actually BE the Grey Wolf spirit, or rather, it has absorbed/replaced the beast totem, since it doesn't behave as other best totems, with the whole lycanthropy thing).
EDIT:
I just found a pic of Miksa with two heads, and weirdly, in my Search results I also see a picture of Bazim Gorag and Demogorgon - two other beings with two heads, who also happen to be two guys we've been discussing elsewhere. Could that be some sort of 'primordial' thing? Maybe Ettins are closer to the primal (celestial) giants than we thought. 
Yeah, but one thing we have to keep in mind (regarding Uthgardt) would be this fight between the two potential gods is a "legend" back in -6048 DR. So, Uthgardt would not have been around yet (that being said, I may have misread you, and you meant that Uthgardt killed this Skahmau and thus took the wolf). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 17:59:33
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Well, I was thinking this 'Wolf Spirit' was probably a primal 'Beast Lord', and therefor predated the Uthgardt by like... everything (So when would the Beast Lords have first appeared? I'm thinking they would have had to have existed on that 'First World' - perhaps they were the 'templates' for the other animals?) The fun part about that is that there could be some of these around who's species has died off (maybe the Terrasque? Although I have other ideas for that dude...)
Also, such things would be multispheric, and like all these multispheric archtypes, it seems it's a fairly common thing for some 'local' god to kill their aspect and take their stuff (for that world). Perhaps Uthgar defeated the wolf totem, and then this werewolf god usurped his power after Uthgar died? Maybe after it was weakened by Uthgar? Regardless, lycanthropes are tricky, because Selūne seems to hold a lot of sway over them in FR.
But since the quote you had said 'Skahmau the Wolfshead', I'm thinking that Miksa is a perfect fit. I'm thinking about connecting Miksa to Zanassu somehow, but it doesn't really work out. Maybe Zanassu was able to usurp some of Miksa's stuff after he was imprisoned? Something like that might work. What is it with demons and spiders, anyway? (hhmmmm... 8 = chaos... that could be it..).
Just realized that Miska and the 'Queen of Chaos' did their thing and went after worlds, which tells me this may have been sometime soon after the Sundering (The Shattering of the First World) and the Dawn War - maybe more of those 'brush fire' wars I mentioned elsewhere (so the Dawn War never truly ended, it fragmented into dozens, if not hundreds, of other conflicts).
Also, no-one ever bothers to update Wikipedia - most of that info is pre-4e, and definitely all pre-5e. (so take whatever I just posted with a grain of salt). Anyone got newer info on Miska and this 'Queen of Chaos' (could she be the Raven Queen)? If so, she seems to have changed her temperament a great deal; we could also possibly connected her to Auril (the current QoA&D, or Pale Knight, if we go with my other theories). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 19:38:29 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2471 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2017 : 20:44:18
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The Queen of Chaos and the Raven Queen are two different beings. The Raven Queen was originally a mortal, to begin with.
And yeah, most articles of D&D in wikipedia are outdated. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 11:50:14
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About Abyss - for me this was orginaly place where Batrachi gods lived (now called Obyriths) and demons as we know them came later and claimed their own domains (layers of Abyss) and then usurped leadership over dormant Batrachi gods. Some of them remained active within this new setting and got lost within the ranks. Demogorgon himself show some signs of his batrachi origin (tentacles). Pazrael on the other hand seems like fallen Aaocra god and vrocs seems to be his progeny.
Bazim-Gorag himself states that he was subservient to Zhoukoudien (GHotR p.5) so he was one of the surviving Batrachi lord (not god) who left for Limbo after their realm was destroyed and have been changed to his new form. Possibly he could be two Batrachi merged together by forces of Limbo...
Nine Hells were formerly a location of Sarrukh gods (World Serpent) who corrupted angels and other beings to become devils and create Nine Hells. It is said that in depths of Nessus Asmodeus is licking his wounds in his serpent form. This could be that he is Sarrukh god himself of that he guards his mentor who corrupted him.
To complete the picture Aaocra gods were in Celestia and Fey in Arborea. They had gods so they had to go semewhere after death... This evolution of planes seems logical to me and explain a lot and I haven't found a serious gap in this theory yet. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 19:49:12
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I once theorized that Asmodeus was an 'avatar of Ahriman' (GtH hints at that), which works out quite well on a few levels, but not after the fiend lore (3e, or 4e?) that firmly established him as a 'Fallen Celestial'. This why I now think he just 'taps into' Ahriman, who would be an Ordial (uber-primordial - one of the first, what I dubbed 'Eternals').
I like Bazim-Gorag as two batrachi initially - Bazim & Gorag; that works really well.
Is it canon (anywhere) that the Abyss is that 'sliver of Corruption' the Obyriths pushed into the Universe? I can work with that.
The Queen of Chaos could still be The Queen of Air & Darkness, although I doubt she's Auril. Thats why I think maybe Pale Night may have been the first QoA&D (and her being an Obyrith works as well). Personally, I just think that Auril took the name because no-one was really using it anymore.
And she herself may be waging a 'quiet war' with Ithaqua (a being from the Cthulhu mythos, who may be some sot of 'cold/air primordial'). He'd fit right in with the 'Princes of elemental Evil'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2017 20:17:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:09:30
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On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:57:38
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Yeah, I never liked 'Limbo' on the Great Wheel - that just always felt wrong to me, right from the beginning. They did that just to balance things. If anything Limbo's nature should be closer to that of the astral and ethereal - touching everything. If it was like that, that would be the PERFECT place to stick Abeir - "out in limbo, somewhere".
How about if 'Gorag' was a title, or something akin to 'race' (classification?) of primordial? Some lower-echelon type? Like a primordial version of a celestial/fiend? Basically, those things could evolve ('level up') into a primordial, and if one were forced to merge with a mortal (or semi-mortal, in the case of the Creatori), you would get that 'twinned' being - 'something'-Gorag. Thus, those two would be separate entities - two different cases of something merging with a Gorag. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 19:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought.
Maybe Limbo was once part of the Elemental Chaos, and became separated when powerful entities started shaping it to their will. Once that happened, the other Outer Planes were spawned off of Limbo. Likely, it happened as divine realms formed demiplanes, but then the demiplanes of like-minded powers started merging together, forming the planes as we know them. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 19:56:16
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| Working with the idea of the addition of Gorag meaning SOMETHING that we haven't necessarily defined..... Demo-Gorag... Demogorag... Demogorgan... Demogorgon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 20:46:17
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Or he was the first attempt for gorgon that didn't worked very well .-))
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 20:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
My idea wasn't to tie everything to everything else... My thinking is that if Limbo and the Elemental Chaos are so similar, there could be a connection. Especially if the only real difference is location.
As for the rest... Well, parts of Limbo can be stabilized by a strong enough will. And divine realms are simply segments of larger planes, staked out by someone who would be capable of stabilizing sizable chunks of Limbo. I don't know that it's canon, but it makes sense to me that someone with enough willpower could stabilize and then break off a piece of Limbo. And from there, having those pieces become the planes we know isn't that much of a stretch, especially given that belief forms reality on the Outer Planes. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 01:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the Bazim-Gorag being two names (and having noted he had two heads)... I like that idea, but more so that Bazim was the batrachi lord and Gorag is an entity from possibly the Far Realm (or some similar closed off prison plane) that it aligned itself too. Given that he's the lord of the Pandemonium Stone, and said stone seems to have randomness tied to it, it has a little bit of a Far Realm flavor to it. Along this idea, Dungeon #197 presents something I just found... Shoth-Gorag.... a being that was from the far realm, has been destroyed, but left behind a stone heart. Its trying to "reflesh" itself by gathering sacrifices. So, perhaps this "Gorag" being has tied itself to several individuals? Just a thought.
BTW, Limbo if anything feels like an outer plane that is essentially "the elemental chaos". Granted, I know that doesn't make sense (i.e. outer plane that is a soup of all the inner planes). However, if we think of Limbo as the elemental chaos given ties to thought. Perhaps its a place that the gods started to usurp some of the essence of the elemental chaos in order to form the outer planes. Essentially, it becomes something equivalent to Ginunngagap of Norse legend). Hmmm, and I just got this picture of this particular place being the birthing ward for primordials that was to give birth to beings of pure thought.
Maybe Limbo was once part of the Elemental Chaos, and became separated when powerful entities started shaping it to their will. Once that happened, the other Outer Planes were spawned off of Limbo. Likely, it happened as divine realms formed demiplanes, but then the demiplanes of like-minded powers started merging together, forming the planes as we know them.
Yeah, I was thinking similar, and that's how I got on the idea of primordials "birthing" beings of "thought"... aka gods... here. This kind of became the connecting ground between the planes of thought and the elemental chaos whenever this place started to be able to be shaped by thought/strength of will more than raw elemental power. From this spawned off the outer planar domains, who may have used this as a leeching point to draw elemental matter with which to build said planes of thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 04:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Or he was the first attempt for gorgon that didn't worked very well .-))
As for Limbo I think that it represent it's chaotic planar nature well but it is not the same as elemental chaos - not everthing have to have ties to everything...
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
AFAIK, it does actually say the two are the same, or even makes any connection between them, other than they are both from a time before time' kind of thing (pre-current universe). Maybe Obyriths are the other universe's version of 'primordials', or maybe the Obyriths came into this universe (after creating it?) and altered some shadevari into primordials? Or the primordials could even be 'children' of Obyriths (although I feel thinking of them as 'equals' works better). So many ways to spin it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 04:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
The main source we have on obyriths is 4e's Demonomicon, which was a great book, but not FR specific - though is there any FR-specific obyrith info?
Anyway, the main gist is that "demon lords" come from two different backgrounds. The majority are primordials that came into contact with a shard of complete evil - which may actually be a condensation of dead obyriths or some such. There are also obyriths that are demon lords, such as Obox-Ob and Pazuzu. The impression I get is that no one except each other knows that they're obyriths, and they disguise themselves as demon lords to further their goals.
That's the only primordial-obyrith connection I'm aware of anyway, and it's only a indirect connection (through both types being able to end up as "demon lords"). |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 13:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Where does it say that Obyriths are primordials or something? I have found only info that they were in Abyss before demons that is what I have based my theory on. Queen of Chaos seems to me as just another Obyrith and definitely not a fey as Queen of Air and Darkness (she even has tentacles instead of her legs).
The main source we have on obyriths is 4e's Demonomicon, which was a great book, but not FR specific - though is there any FR-specific obyrith info?
Anyway, the main gist is that "demon lords" come from two different backgrounds. The majority are primordials that came into contact with a shard of complete evil - which may actually be a condensation of dead obyriths or some such. There are also obyriths that are demon lords, such as Obox-Ob and Pazuzu. The impression I get is that no one except each other knows that they're obyriths, and they disguise themselves as demon lords to further their goals.
That's the only primordial-obyrith connection I'm aware of anyway, and it's only a indirect connection (through both types being able to end up as "demon lords").
Good to know. Guess I'll need to hunt that book down. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Question about history and deities
