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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 16:50:50
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| Maybe if only one demon lord was running amuck then it wouldn't be an RSE but when you have them "all" then that changes things. So OoTA was an RSE. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11999 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 17:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Direhammer
So now I'm wondering, what adventuring party dropped the ball and allowed the Tablets of Fate to be stolen? Who's to blame for the Time of Troubles?
I blame "The Nine"... when Laeral donned the Crown of Horns, allowing Myrkul access to the depths of her mind.... just saying... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 18:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
For some reason it seems like the term "RSE" has come to be defined as "bad guys doing bad things". Any epic scale plot has the theoretical ability to change things in the Realms - but that doesn't make it an RSE. If you're going to use that broad of a definition, then pretty much anything Manshoon, Szass Tam, heck even Elminster, the Sisters, etc has done counts as an RSE.
Now, now. You blur it more than anyone else. A bunch of banditos robbing caravans under false flag is very much "bad guys doing bad things", but no one complains about this.
"OMG SKY IS FALLING!!1 Only teh random band of misfits can save the world", however, is the problem.
Because in 999 cases out of 1000 it's a mark of Generic Comic Book grade trash. Which the author (or worse, market-drone in command) pulled out of thin air already knowing that it does not follow from anything in the setting and goes nowhere, and not caring what it does there. Due to being unable or unwilling to make up any decent plot, which is one more reason why it's pretty much doomed to end up as the lowest common denominator crud.
There are a few exceptions. I can remember only one in FR fiction: The Year of Rogue Dragons series - the premise is utterly ridiculous, and "loose end budget" is dubious, but generally it's done well, and tied in well enough. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 19:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Maybe if only one demon lord was running amuck then it wouldn't be an RSE but when you have them "all" then that changes things. So OoTA was an RSE.
This is my concern about the new adventure as well. The central idea of giants going berserk across the Sword Coast isn't an RSE, you're right. But the context they've set up for it - the giant deities breaking the entire giant social structure, and giants across the Realms reenacting the Thousand-Year-War, is an RSE because it has deleterious effects across the entirety of the Realms.
It's nice to see this one actually be connected to the Realms and drawing on Realmslore, but it's still too big and too unwieldy. I'd prefer smaller, more engaging plots like the Realms has been built for. Not withstanding that, the 5e adventures are meant to compete with Pathfinder's Adventure Paths. Pathfinder's APs are plenty fine epic and heroic enough for an entire campaign, but they generally don't have nearly as high a set of stakes. (For example, their giant AP was about several tribes of giants, and only affected one area in their campaign setting.) The other thing Pathfinder does is change where the adventure paths are taking place, both to avoid creative fatigue and to also make it so not everything is happening in one area at once. It's much more even and balanced, I feel. |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 20:36:57
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| mind you the differance is Pazio I think cares more then WOTC. I'm not saying the writers don't care, but the beancounters running WOTC likely don't. Pazio is a smaller company so proably is closer to the ground so to speak. I'm not sure why WOTC has such a hard on for the sword coast, I get it, it's the part of FR the average lay person best knows thanks to video games, etc. but there are a lot of other areas in the setting, hell I'd like to see a video game set in a differant area. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 21:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rils
For some reason it seems like the term "RSE" has come to be defined as "bad guys doing bad things". Any epic scale plot has the theoretical ability to change things in the Realms - but that doesn't make it an RSE. If you're going to use that broad of a definition, then pretty much anything Manshoon, Szass Tam, heck even Elminster, the Sisters, etc has done counts as an RSE.
But "something about the Realms has changed" is not the right criteria to wave the RSE Banner. This story arc is simply another episode of "Giants Gone Wild", and the rest of the Realms is sitting back with a bowl of popcorn to watch.
If you want an RSE, you have to look at things like pantheons getting redefined (ToT), the entire magic system getting reorganized (Spellplague), the geography of the planet getting rearranged (Sundering), etc. Giants making a nuisance of themselves just doesn't cut it in my book.
Not true. But lingo has changed in recent years.
A realms shaking event was something like the Tuigan Horde. It affected multiple nations and was large scale. Same with the rage of dragons.
A realm shattering event was one in which a lot of rules in the setting change because of a bunch of god deaths and setting rule changes.
Time of troubles, Spellplague, Sundering, etc |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 21:57:51
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I believe the focus on the Sword Coast is simply branding, as it is likely to be the best known area on faerun among non-gamers. Wotc want to run a transmedia brand (I believe the term is), so they play it safe - in short they want to be the next Marvel.
Paizo seem to be doing the same thing, but they are by far the underdog as branding goes, and they have CEO Lisa Stevens. Steves appears to be a gamer at heart, the real deal. This makes them closer to the ground, as you say. |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 23:13:16
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| maybe but the problem is Marvel, strictly speaking, hasn't 100% played it safe, they've exposed people through the movies to areas of their comics that where pretty niche and managed to make bank by doing so. Guardians of the Galaxy, and including fox here, Deadpool are big examples. now I agree video games right now are focused on the sword coast and that's kinda the big thing, the obvious idea would be to get in touch with a studio that you know can do a hell of a job and offer them a minor discount on a 1 game lisence "so long as the game is set in Teythr" for example. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 23:18:06
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| Hasbro is imperious, grand, and mighty. Hasbro does not offer gifts and concessions. Software studios capable of doing a hell of a job are lucky to be granted an audience with Hasbro, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2016 : 17:28:28
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I too think Perkins attitude towards FR (and its past) is grating at times, but I like his D&D design principles. The FR-adventure lines story-based design has its pitfalls, though, as this thread shows.
If they'd hurry up and give us an Unapproachable East-like splatbook and set the next story in Thay or somesuch, my faith in Perkins would be rekindled alot.
Also the next movie might bring to life Waterdeep on the big screen, a very alluring prospect that could bring in fresh new interest and lore on one of the greatest city in D&D.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 01:35:27
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After how the Warcraft movie has bombed, I have grave fears for the FR movie ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 02:18:34
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it's only bombed domesticly, it's apparently broken records in China, makes sense really, WC is past it's best before date domesticly and it's numbers as I understand it would be considerably more modest if you simply compared domestic sales vs compeiting games.
that said FR has the advantage in that it doesn't require half their characters to be CGI. the orks in WC look terriable, especially when you compare them, as people will, to the Uruks from LOTR. but yeah I'm not holding out high hopes for it as well. IMHO on a movie front they'd be better off doing animated versions of realms classic stories. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1601 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 03:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
(...) FR has the advantage in that it doesn't require half their characters to be CGI.
(...)
Let's see how they deal with non-human races, and even with the classes. The other movies had elves, wizards, barbarians and rogues with questionable characterizations, and an excess of tattoos, lipsticks and modern looks. And the props...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Direhammer
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 18:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
it's only bombed domesticly, it's apparently broken records in China, makes sense really, WC is past it's best before date domesticly and it's numbers as I understand it would be considerably more modest if you simply compared domestic sales vs compeiting games.
That's why movies are so bad now, plots and dialogue require an audience to have similar cultural backgrounds to understand but explosions and kewl monsters transcend language barriers. Hollywood doesn't make movies for American audiences, they can make way more money by make generic movies anyone can understand. |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 22:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
(...) FR has the advantage in that it doesn't require half their characters to be CGI.
(...)
Let's see how they deal with non-human races, and even with the classes. The other movies had elves, wizards, barbarians and rogues with questionable characterizations, and an excess of tattoos, lipsticks and modern looks. And the props...
well yeah trashy looks are trashy. that said the problem with the old D&D movie, as I've said plenty of times before, is D&D is a rules set. not a setting. thus it makes for a poor movie choice. Forgotten Realms, Ebberon, Dragonlance, PLanescape those are D&D settings, and are the best pick, because they actually provide a foundation for your stuff. but yeah anything silly that way clothing and prop wise would be bad, FR should look more like middle earth and less like an 80s punk band. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 18:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Not true. But lingo has changed in recent years.
A realms shaking event was something like the Tuigan Horde. It affected multiple nations and was large scale. Same with the rage of dragons.
A realm shattering event was one in which a lot of rules in the setting change because of a bunch of god deaths and setting rule changes.
Time of troubles, Spellplague, Sundering, etc
That's my understading of the terms as well. And with that said, most of the current Adventure Paths are definitely Realms-shaking events, only they are always assumed to end without causing much trouble to the setting at large at all, it's all in the "potential threat".
On one side I'm happy that they figured they don't need to actually destroy established places, characters, plots, etc. to tell a story. On the other, I wish they'd make the stories a little less about continent-threatening evils because it feels silly when the nth of those gets beaten without changing anything (and I'm not advocating for them changing things, I'm advocating for them not to exist in such large numbers in the first place!). That, and it's now incredibly bland as far as stories go - "another evil invasion, oh great, I guess we should do the same thing we did for the last three". Finally, I appreciate the attempts to capitalise on Realmslore that have been popping here and there, and the APs are a glaring counter-example of it, one because the solution is pretty much always the same, so there's not much need for extensive involvement of all the people, societies and realms that might be interested (yeah, the DM can do it, but the style of threat being always the same makes it hard, and many of us don't even DM, or not primarily - we want the stories); two, because - probably for marketing reasons - they keep it all in the Sword Coast, creating an odd situation (are the other places in the world also being regularly assaulted by evil? What are they doing about it? Maybe some of them could be looking at doing something about the Sword Coast given what's happening there?).
I run a NWN2 PW, and any time something even remotely important in the grand scheme of things happens, the first question the DM Team asks, before it gets into the players' hands, is "how does the world views this?". |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Jun 2016 18:11:50 |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 21:19:36
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| I'd definatly like to see a smaller scale, but I think there's this belief that every story told in RP must be epic and world shattering, it's hardly unique to WOTC, I know I've seen it elsewhere, I blame in large part modern CRPGs which are always epic huge scope and fixated on saving the world and thats what people expect. Dragon Age 2 got bashed pretty hard for essentially being a "tale of one city" |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1297 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 22:13:42
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
I'd definatly like to see a smaller scale, but I think there's this belief that every story told in RP must be epic and world shattering, it's hardly unique to WOTC, I know I've seen it elsewhere, I blame in large part modern CRPGs which are always epic huge scope and fixated on saving the world and thats what people expect. Dragon Age 2 got bashed pretty hard for essentially being a "tale of one city"
Now now...DA2 could have been amazing if they fleshed out and made the city huge, alive, breathing, interactive and intriguing that over time could mold to choices you made over the years the game takes place. DA2 got bashed because it was a small, uninteresting and the choices were irrelevant, with the same final boss no matter what you sided with. And everyone was irrational...the monsters dropped from the sky...ugh anyway. DA2 had many problems, but the concept of one city was not one of them. IMO of course. :) Sorry got sidetracked.
I just re-read The Wyvern's Spur...a really great novel that was intimate, takes place over like 3 days, only impacts one city and one large family, but still is a great tale and connects with so much of the Realms. |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 23:09:47
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| Pathfinder seems to have put out many, many novels with no long-running series. All these books have self-contained story lines with no RSE action. Why are they going with mass quantity/good quality for (I assume) a profit whereas WotC is going with very few novels with good quality. Anyone know the sales numbers to show which approach is better? I personally think I would get into Pathfinder if they would start using trilogies so I could 'care' about a character. I don't want to invest with just stand alone novels though. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 23:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Pathfinder seems to have put out many, many novels with no long-running series. All these books have self-contained story lines with no RSE action. Why are they going with mass quantity/good quality for (I assume) a profit whereas WotC is going with very few novels with good quality. Anyone know the sales numbers to show which approach is better? I personally think I would get into Pathfinder if they would start using trilogies so I could 'care' about a character. I don't want to invest with just stand alone novels though.
Some of the books do follow prior ones -- the ones by Dave Gross, for example, follow Count Varian Jeggare and his bodyguard Radovan through a series of adventures. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 15:12:06
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PRSE, potiential realms shaking events.
Honestly I would be happy if they moved the APs away from the sword coast, but not generic Cormyr, but to somewhere more exotic, like Mulhorand, Unther, Tymanther, Akanul, the Shining Plains, Calimshan, Vaasa, Lantan, Evermeet, Aglarond, ect...
Actually an AP focusing the tense political situation in the old empires region, between Mulhorand, Exiled Imaskar, Unther, Tymanther, Chessenta,Thay, could be really compelling and interesting.
Instead they orestrate these artificial crisises so everything seems to be happening on the Sword Coast, but the truth is, if not for the APs, the compelling action would be happening far from the Sword Coast (with the exception of Calimshan, if one conciders it apart of the sword coast?)
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 18:11:44
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| Maybe WotC should sub contract a couple of AP's out to say, Paizo, Green Ronin, & some others. Set these AP's in different area's of The Realms. These AP's could use some of the outstanding Lorelords that are out there for background, and away we go. I would buy that... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 20:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Maybe WotC should sub contract a couple of AP's out to say, Paizo, Green Ronin, & some others. Set these AP's in different area's of The Realms. These AP's could use some of the outstanding Lorelords that are out there for background, and away we go. I would buy that...
They do actually - game designers from previous editions have helped design such APs - but as I understand it, Wizards determine these APs take place on the sword coast as part of an intermarketing famariliarity initiative. Other products (such as Neverwinter - WotC is after all, a game company) help support the familiarity much like a brand. Until/unless another adventuring guide is published for other parts of the world, they will remain focused on the Sword Coast because of that familiarity, other products (games, novels, etc), and the foundation within a successful sourcebook. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2016 : 04:35:14
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All this talk on RSEs and megagaming really makes me appreciate any new FR lore that comes from any source that fleshes out old regions or pulls the curtain back on brand new regions. Remember Ed's Everwinking Eye articles? Those were some of the best Realmslore written IMO because it didn't focus on adventure, could be inserted into any version of D&D/FR, and focused on detailing Toril itself.
Things like a mysterious stump of a giant Shadowtop tree that spawns numerous rumors about what lies beneath it, and how a stairway down could even be there to begin with.
I always love to see original content like this regardless of source; the tree doesn't have to be Silvanus incarnated for it to be interesting. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2016 : 06:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
All this talk on RSEs and megagaming really makes me appreciate any new FR lore that comes from any source that fleshes out old regions or pulls the curtain back on brand new regions. Remember Ed's Everwinking Eye articles? Those were some of the best Realmslore written IMO because it didn't focus on adventure, could be inserted into any version of D&D/FR, and focused on detailing Toril itself.
Things like a mysterious stump of a giant Shadowtop tree that spawns numerous rumors about what lies beneath it, and how a stairway down could even be there to begin with.
I always love to see original content like this regardless of source; the tree doesn't have to be Silvanus incarnated for it to be interesting.
This this this!
I am so sick and tired of Wizard's marketing shite. They make it seem like needing to have epic adventures is the norm. I just want some good old lore on areas we've always heard about but not had much info on. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2016 : 23:51:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I am so sick and tired of Wizard's marketing ...
lol, just because they're selling doesn't mean that you need to be buying. If (like me) you reject a lot of Wizbro's canon Realmslore then (like me) you can simply game on without buying, reading, or adhering to it. The increment-edition-and-repeat-RSE-ad-nauseum plot mechanism is evidence enough (to me) that WotC's creative talents are not sufficiently creative to keep buying into. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 06:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I am so sick and tired of Wizard's marketing ...
lol, just because they're selling doesn't mean that you need to be buying. If (like me) you reject a lot of Wizbro's canon Realmslore then (like me) you can simply game on without buying, reading, or adhering to it. The increment-edition-and-repeat-RSE-ad-nauseum plot mechanism is evidence enough (to me) that WotC's creative talents are not sufficiently creative to keep buying into.
Oh I'm not buying.
The problem for me is the fact that we were supposed to get a Realms that was closer to the old one but that just seems to have stopped. I have money ready to pour into D&D but they just continue with this shite. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 12:19:07
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| Well if you consider the levels of each of these big Adventure/Campaigns then you see they are not supposed to be played after each other by the same characters in a continuum. Then you can just pretend the other ones do not happen and just play one of them with your group. It doesn't mean every week some big event is happening in the region. Just the one you want. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 14:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Well if you consider the levels of each of these big Adventure/Campaigns then you see they are not supposed to be played after each other by the same characters in a continuum. Then you can just pretend the other ones do not happen and just play one of them with your group. It doesn't mean every week some big event is happening in the region. Just the one you want.
Except for the fact that this is official, published material by WotC, making it canon that these things keep happening. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2016 : 16:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Oh I'm not buying.
The problem for me is the fact that we were supposed to get a Realms that was closer to the old one but that just seems to have stopped. I have money ready to pour into D&D but they just continue with this shite.
Yup. It's "totally not 4e".
Except 4e stuff is not retconned away like it retconned away anything else.
And after going through motions and empty assurances, everything continues to fall apart much the same way it did.
And there was another "coincidental" wave of mud flinging in Ed's general direction from Totally-Not-Winterfox shill upon release of 5e materials no better than it was on 4e (only lazier, looks like they really cut down the funds). And...
That's the corporate bureaucracy for you. No difference whatsoever with the other sort. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Aaaaand it looks another RSE on the Sword Coast.
