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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 16:59:49
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As mentioned, there can be a variety of reasons. The main one that comes to mind is that Ao needed someone to perform a mission of some sort for which he himself was unable to perform (for example, to enter Sigil). Perhaps he had placed some powerful godly artifact (or component) that he needs to separate the two worlds again in Sigil (or somewhere else equally hard to reach, such as the place where vestiges go). Ostensibly, we may even find out that Ao is only powerful in Toril, and in Abeir there is another similar entity.... and the two can't enter each other's realms, and so Ao needed someone who could quietly cross the boundaries.
Another thing to think about is that Ao just may not be as all powerful as he's led everyone to believe. Maybe he can't strike down gods on a whim without some serious preparation beforehand. Maybe if a large enough faction of them were to band together, they could actually take him on, and so he makes sure to keep them at one another's throats to prevent that from happening by making sure they all adhere to and vie for portfolios. Also, maybe Ao himself is forbidden from interacting too much with the gods, much as how the gods are forbidden from stepping down into the lives of mortals directly and ruling.
As to faking her death, maybe it was to give up her "god feat" temporarily so that she could perform a mission for Ao (possibly to aid Mystra). Therefore, she separated herself from requiring worship energy in order to survive, all in order to pull off a very powerful series of lies which when revealed would serve to actually strengthen her at that time. For instance, maybe she herself provided the enchantment for the Cyrinishad and has somehow been riding Cyric all this time, all without him realizing it. Maybe she has plans in play to turn the screws on Shar and seize control of the remnants of the shadow weave (which notedly had a lot of power over illusions, shadow magics, and mind deception magics). Maybe it was something more simple, like she saw Cyric gaining a lot of power, and she faked her death quite simply to not be destroyed. She might have let Cyric take her "mantle of godhood" but only after she had somehow "poisoned the well" such that she could use it to worm her way back into him (via the Cyrinishad).... and its just taken her a century to work the controls enough that she can finally separate from him again by forming a separate avatar and ripping that aspect of her portfolio away from him. She may have even arranged the separation just after the spellplague, with Ao's consent, if she would secretly aid the bringing back of Mystra. Hell, she may have taken control of Cyric in those last seconds when he "struck down Mystra" and had him perform some other actions.... and Cyric may not even be aware of what he did.
In the end, do I have the full story? No, but does any mortal? Does any god even have that? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 17:40:40
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Ao can literally strip all of the gods of their power, at once. He can permanently injure a deity on a whim. I don't see him having to worry about anything they do against him.
Why would Ao need a deity to go into Sigil? Why not pick one of his loyal deities, like Helm, and have him empower a mortal agent to do what was needed? That's a lot easier, and more straightforward, than "only a former deity who stands to lose everything in the doing could possibly do this task!" Or even easier, Ao could directly task a mortal.
As for fooling or somehow controlling a deity that is more powerful than her? Especially when that deity got her portfolio of deception? Yeah, I don't see that one happening, either.
And it still doesn't address how a deity who is tied to their mortal worship is going to benefit by forgoing that mortal worship.
Again, there is absolutely nothing that indicates Leira isn't dead. It's stated in numerous canon sources, in novels and sourcebooks, and we have a case of Ao himself saying she was dead, at Cyric's hand.
I've said more than once that I'm happy to play in the grey areas of Realmslore. But there isn't a grey area here. If she had mysteriously disappeared (like Waukeen did, immediately after the ToT), then I'd be willing to accept she might be alive somewhere and scheming. Instead, we have every single mention of her saying she's dead, and no reasonable explanation for why she'd fake it or how she could fool everyone.
I honestly don't understand this insistence that canon might be wrong in this case, and I don't understand the fascination with a deity that never really did anything in the lore other than die offscreen.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In the end, do I have the full story? No, but does any mortal? Does any god even have that?
Well, the gods knew she was dead, and Ao confirmed it. That's the full story. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jun 2014 17:41:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 19:59:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ao can literally strip all of the gods of their power, at once. He can permanently injure a deity on a whim. I don't see him having to worry about anything they do against him.
Why would Ao need a deity to go into Sigil? Why not pick one of his loyal deities, like Helm, and have him empower a mortal agent to do what was needed? That's a lot easier, and more straightforward, than "only a former deity who stands to lose everything in the doing could possibly do this task!" Or even easier, Ao could directly task a mortal.
As for fooling or somehow controlling a deity that is more powerful than her? Especially when that deity got her portfolio of deception? Yeah, I don't see that one happening, either.
And it still doesn't address how a deity who is tied to their mortal worship is going to benefit by forgoing that mortal worship.
Again, there is absolutely nothing that indicates Leira isn't dead. It's stated in numerous canon sources, in novels and sourcebooks, and we have a case of Ao himself saying she was dead, at Cyric's hand.
I've said more than once that I'm happy to play in the grey areas of Realmslore. But there isn't a grey area here. If she had mysteriously disappeared (like Waukeen did, immediately after the ToT), then I'd be willing to accept she might be alive somewhere and scheming. Instead, we have every single mention of her saying she's dead, and no reasonable explanation for why she'd fake it or how she could fool everyone.
I honestly don't understand this insistence that canon might be wrong in this case, and I don't understand the fascination with a deity that never really did anything in the lore other than die offscreen.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In the end, do I have the full story? No, but does any mortal? Does any god even have that?
Well, the gods knew she was dead, and Ao confirmed it. That's the full story.
Ao can strip all of the deities of their power at once.... when he's prepared for it. We don't actually know WHAT it took for him to cast all the gods down. He might have had to use some deific-level one-shot magic item to do it. Its noted that he possibly had to rely on an item (the shadow of Ao) to twin the worlds anew in the 4th edition FRCG. The truth is we have no clue of Ao's actual power level in comparison to other deities. We have no clue how much reliance he has upon filling "items" with power in preparation for big moves.
On the why not pick another deity and empower them with divine power to perform the activity, perhaps he needed someone whose skills at subterfuge were well beyond anyone else's. It may have also gone down that Leira faked her death in order to survive the assault by Cyric, and only THEN did Ao offer to not reveal her secret if she'd work for him (in going to get something from Sigil, or Abeir, or working against Shar from the background, etc... ). Or hell, maybe SHE needed to go get something from Sigil after faking her death in order to pull off the Cyrinishad debacle.
On the why give up worshippers... again, maybe she had to in order to survive. Maybe she and Mask worked it out so that she wouldn't reveal Mask's deception in posing as GodsBane. Cyric is indeed holding her portfolio right now. The question is whether she's been riding Cyric without his realizing it, or whether she has some plans in the works with Ao in which he'll strip Cyric of the portfolio and give it back to her just out of sheer merit. Hell, we've also seen Cyric lose his death portfolio to a simple mortal soul (aka Kelemvor), so conceivably she stands a chance of getting her own back.
As to why the fascination... simply because Cyric is a piss poor example of a god of lies and illusions. He does make a good god of madness, insanity, and strife. I don't have a problem with him as a god of murder either (though they are bringing back Bhaal). But Cyric got fooled by his own lie. He exhibits bouts of delusional madness. So, why not have someone who can show that they truly understand tricksterism.... and what better way to debut such a talent than to reveal that they've been working behind the scenes as an elaborate lie. If it can hurt Shar in the process, even better. In the end it makes for an improvement of the realms |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 20:07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Also - I'd say Leira was not subservient to Mystra... unlike the other gods of magic she was her own mistress to a greater extent so the idea she sacrificed her power so Mystra could use it sits wrong with me.
On this piece, I agree, it needs a little working on phrasing. How about she was made aware of the coming spellplague somehow (maybe Savras foresaw his own death, discovered that Leira was still alive, and reacted by contacting her for help?). Maybe she saw it inevitable that if she did come back that Shar would gobble her up in a heartbeat (for why wouldn't Shar want illusions, lies, and deceptions) and felt like Velsharoon had that it best to ally with the goddess of magic (even if that meant helping her reboot somehow and protecting one of her servants). In fact, if she were riding inside Cyric when the act of murdering Mystra was performed, it would have put her in a unique situation to do SOMETHING that might help things later (possibly even without Cyric's notice). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 00:45:11
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You're suggesting that Leira decided that death by starvation was the only way to survive? 
And if Ao can permanently maim a deity at the drop of a hat, I don't see how he'd need any special ability to do something that is essentially his sole portfolio. What good is being over all the deities if he doesn't have the ability to do whatever he needs to, when he needs to? No other deity has to take time to prepare to do something within their portfolio, so I don't see any reason why their creator would have that limitation.
You still haven't explained how the deity of deception could be deceived. You still haven't explained why Ao would choose to lie, or what this secret mission is that can only be done by a former deity.
Again, every single reference to Leira says she's dead. There is nothing that even hints otherwise. The simplest solution here is the canon one; the alternatives you offer make about as much sense as the Spellplague.
If Ao wants to raise her from the dead, that's fine and wouldn't bother me. But saying she's alive because of some weakness of Ao, his willingness to lie, and because of some bizarrely convoluted plot just does not work. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 13:24:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're suggesting that Leira decided that death by starvation was the only way to survive?
And if Ao can permanently maim a deity at the drop of a hat, I don't see how he'd need any special ability to do something that is essentially his sole portfolio. What good is being over all the deities if he doesn't have the ability to do whatever he needs to, when he needs to? No other deity has to take time to prepare to do something within their portfolio, so I don't see any reason why their creator would have that limitation.
You still haven't explained how the deity of deception could be deceived. You still haven't explained why Ao would choose to lie, or what this secret mission is that can only be done by a former deity.
Again, every single reference to Leira says she's dead. There is nothing that even hints otherwise. The simplest solution here is the canon one; the alternatives you offer make about as much sense as the Spellplague.
If Ao wants to raise her from the dead, that's fine and wouldn't bother me. But saying she's alive because of some weakness of Ao, his willingness to lie, and because of some bizarrely convoluted plot just does not work.
On the death by starvation, if a god drops their "god feat" and becomes no longer a deity, they won't starve due to lack of worship. I've simply said she didn't die. I didn't say she didn't have to give up her portfolios. That being said, whenever she drops her "god feat" who knows what she still remains. For instance, was she some kind of archfey before becoming a deity? Even as a non-deity, she could be powerful and useful, and possibly enact plots that can still affect gods.
That permanent maiming of the deity... that was in a meeting he was calling right? So, he was prepped for people mouthing off so that he could control the situation.... So, I again say, we truthfully don't know what he can do on the fly.
No other deity has to prep to do things within their portfolio???? Wasn't all the preparation by Shar to kick off the cycle of night preparation? She was busy as a bee hunting down artifacts, etc... etc...
The simplest answer will always be "because its written such a way". If you choose to accept that in your games, hey, its your game. I'd like to see her back, and I'd really like to see some kind of machinations behind the return of a lot of gods. This thread was just one option that could result in an explanation for the return of many. As always, I'm just offering up possible options.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 17:48:03
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I'm not objecting to her coming back in some manner, I am objecting to retconning her death and using a convoluted and unlikely plot to do so.
If the Mistmaster finds some artifact and does some ritual on Selūne, restoring her to life, hey, that's great, that works.
Saying Ao lied and that Leira fooled the holder of the Deception portfolio, and invoking some task that only a former deity and not an empowered mortal could do? That's a plot invented by Rube Goldberg. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 23:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Saying Ao lied and that Leira fooled the holder of the Deception portfolio, and invoking some task that only a former deity and not an empowered mortal could do? That's a plot invented by Rube Goldberg.
Couple of responses to this. (I also went back and re-read prince of lies - thanks for reminding me Wooly).
1) Leira held the deception portfolio - if one such deception was that he had killer her and taken it from her, that is not too complicated a plot for her in my book.
2) If Leira had survived it would go against his position for AO to reveal that deception to Mask and Cyric. This is especially true since no one in the hearing ever asked if she was alive or if she was deceiving them. They only asked about her disappearance & murder.
3) What if what Ao said was semantically true? They did go through the motions of killing her. They murdered Leira's illusion of herself -> they murdered Leira. What's more this would make his statement that no crime had been committed even MORE true :P
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And if Leira is not granting power to her worshippers, then she's not getting power from their prayers. Therefore, she is losing the worshippers that her existence is tied to.
I'd say that is an assumption. The rule is if they stop praying to the god the god loses power. Its not if you stop answering prayers you lose power. I'd argue that a god would save up their power by not doling it out to their worshipers. If someone was crafty enough to dupe another god into this task for them, then good for them :D
------------
I end with this canon text, which is where my brain goes to whenever i see this topic pop up:
Devout Leirans are unconcerned that the goddess may be dead, since that death may be an illusion, the original Leira may be an illusion, or Cyric, slyly rumored to have replaced Leira, may be an illusion. Official statements by the church say there is no trouble and Leira emerged from the Godswar more powerful than before. However, given the fact that most official statements are lies, most people believe her dead, though large numbers of her faithful (mainly those of good and neutral alignment) steadfastly are holding to the belief that she is not. She has not been definitely seen in avatar form since the Godswar, but then even her church could not definitely say she had ever been seen before the Time of Troubles, since every form that has appeared claiming to be an avatar of Leira has been different. She certainly has not failed in granting the spells or abilities her priests are accustomed to receiving to them.
And this:
"Leira is the Goddess of Deception," Oghma noted. This wouldn't be the first time she obscured her whereabouts from us, simply to prove her power to hide outstrips our ability and patience to seek." |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 30 Jun 2014 23:47:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 00:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Saying Ao lied and that Leira fooled the holder of the Deception portfolio, and invoking some task that only a former deity and not an empowered mortal could do? That's a plot invented by Rube Goldberg.
Couple of responses to this. (I also went back and re-read prince of lies - thanks for reminding me Wooly).
1) Leira held the deception portfolio - if one such deception was that he had killer her and taken it from her, that is not too complicated a plot for her in my book.
2) If Leira had survived it would go against his position for AO to reveal that deception to Mask and Cyric. This is especially true since no one in the hearing ever asked if she was alive or if she was deceiving them. They only asked about her disappearance & murder.
3) What if what Ao said was semantically true? They did go through the motions of killing her. They murdered Leira's illusion of herself -> they murdered Leira. What's more this would make his statement that no crime had been committed even MORE true :P
So how could Cyric possibly hold the Deception portfolio yet still be deceived on something as major as whether or not he killed someone -- which is also part of his portfolio?
Why would it go against Ao's position to say Leira was alive, if she was indeed alive? How would that be any different from him lying?
You can't murder an illusion. Destroying an illusion is nothing like killing an entity, and the Lord of Murder would surely know if he had killed someone or not.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And if Leira is not granting power to her worshippers, then she's not getting power from their prayers. Therefore, she is losing the worshippers that her existence is tied to.
I'd say that is an assumption. The rule is if they stop praying to the god the god loses power. Its not if you stop answering prayers you lose power. I'd argue that a god would save up their power by not doling it out to their worshipers. If someone was crafty enough to dupe another god into this task for them, then good for them :D
If prayers to Leira are being answered by someone else, that means that veneration is going to someone else. Ao tied the deities to their worship -- so if Leira is not getting worshipped, then she is dwindling in power and will eventually die from it. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 00:51:52
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I don't think you got what I was trying to convey.
That Cyric holds the portfolio of lies at all would be the core of the deception. Leira was the mistress of lies and deception. If she still lives than she still has the portfolio and has deluded Cyric into believing it... not so hard since he's been a meglomaniac since his ascension. She's letting him believe what he wants to.
What Ao does when it comes to gods who are playing by the rules is let them do their thing and not interfere. If the goddess of deception is deceiving all the other gods Ao would not interfere with that deception, just as if Cyric and Mask actually did kill her he would not interfere then either. He's hands off as long as gods are following their portfolios and obeying his big tablet rules.
Whether Leira is letting someone else answer prayers of her faithful does not change whether or not they are her faithful. If tonight I pray to Allah and Jahova answers my prayer how the hell do I know? I still would be worshiping Allah - right?
I acknowledge it is all a semantical argument, but I'd say it holds up pretty easily and could be explained away by any of our renowned authors in a colorful paragraph or two. Especially since pretty much every other dead god has proven to hold on to "life" through a complicated means. Leira is deception and illusion incarnate so a huge deception makes more sense for her than anyone else - including Cyric. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 06:02:41
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| MM I agree with your assessment, but how do you reconcile Ao's statement that Leira is dead? Are you basically saying that since she was 'playing by the rules [of her portfolio]' that Ao would assist in the lie? Why not simply remain silent then and let the gods believe as they wanted? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 01 Jul 2014 06:03:50 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 11:51:04
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He didn't say Leira is dead. He said Cyric and Mask murdered Leira. I made my explanation on that in bullet point 3) above. Admittedly its a little bit of a stretch but I think it works fine.
And Ao could not remain silence. Apparently worked into the rules he created is that the Circle has the right to demand and audience and answers from him. So he had to come and address the situation after Mystra started pouting and evoked that right.
While I think the letter of his words can be explained as semantically true as I described above if Leira was still alive, I also am forced to ask: Why does everyone assume that Ao never lies? The chapter where all this comes from has a lot from the various gods about lying. It even has Cyric and Torm chastising each other for their opinions on honesty. If you think of AO as old school TRUE NEUTRAL and working for balance as has been suggested, then you need to dismiss the assumption that he is a good honorable guy; simply put it is not that simple.
I for one like to consider myself an honest guy, but I bend the truth with the best of them on occasion and if there is a way to say something that is technically true but still gives people the wrong impression by leaving out the most important piece of information, I have no problem with that at all. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 01 Jul 2014 12:02:41 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 13:09:29
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| I've always viewed Ao as a good enough guy but also as a dispassionate one - he can't risk forming relationships - and is also privy to information that no other should know because of the potential impact of that knowledge being spread, however, he has to make all of his actions with that knowledge in mind. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 15:59:37
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To murder someone is to end their life. I don't see much room for playing with semantics, there.
And I personally assume that Ao wasn't lying because he has nothing to gain by lying, and because all subsequent lore has backed up the fact that Leira is dead. Not vanished, not rumored dead but may have been seen in Vegas with an Elvis impersonator, not pining for the fjords, but flat out dead. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 22:23:11
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Well I actually find Leira to be a very interesting deity and would like her to return (and I really don't care how they play it out). I agree with Wooley that she is officially dead...especially since she's had over a century to return. But if Wizbro spins a yarn about how she was never really dead (and I REALLY like the idea that she fooled Cyric and was riding him the whole time...given that she is the supreme illusionist I see this as within her power) then I'm fine with that. Or, they can just have Ao resurrect her along with everyone else.
As for my campaign, consider this idea about Leira stolen. Cheers. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 00:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
MM I agree with your assessment, but how do you reconcile Ao's statement that Leira is dead? Are you basically saying that since she was 'playing by the rules [of her portfolio]' that Ao would assist in the lie? Why not simply remain silent then and let the gods believe as they wanted?
Let me reverse that question.... Why WOULDN'T Ao help a god follow their tenets if his doing so is as simple as telling a lie? After all, its always best to reward/support employees who are good at their job. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 01:04:26
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| You have a point sleyvas...other than just assuming he doesn't lie (and I won't make that assumption) there's not plausible reason why he wouldn't and I certainly don't think he would be above it if it served some purpose. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 04:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
MM I agree with your assessment, but how do you reconcile Ao's statement that Leira is dead? Are you basically saying that since she was 'playing by the rules [of her portfolio]' that Ao would assist in the lie? Why not simply remain silent then and let the gods believe as they wanted?
Let me reverse that question.... Why WOULDN'T Ao help a god follow their tenets if his doing so is as simple as telling a lie? After all, its always best to reward/support employees who are good at their job.
Why is he helping one deity and not another? Doesn't showing favoritism like that upset the Balance? |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 05:20:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To murder someone is to end their life. I don't see much room for playing with semantics, there.
And I personally assume that Ao wasn't lying because he has nothing to gain by lying, and because all subsequent lore has backed up the fact that Leira is dead. Not vanished, not rumored dead but may have been seen in Vegas with an Elvis impersonator, not pining for the fjords, but flat out dead.
Just adding inquiry to the discussion. What would you say to the idea that it's evident that "dead" when referring to a deity in the Realms doesn't quite have the finality that referring to a dead relative does in this world?
Saying a god is dead in the Realms seems to merely mean they aren't manifesting in the pantheon for one reason or another. We might find later they were in some other form surviving, but not exactly fulfilling their roles as a being to be worshipped.
How is Leira being dead any different from Mystra, or Bane, or Bhaal being dead?
Is it because Ao said so, and if so, where in canon does it say Ao is always truthful? (Not saying it doesn't, I'm not that well read, I'm merely asking) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 06:11:14
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Deities in the Realms have come back from the dead before... But coming back from being dead does require being dead.
Leira being dead doesn't really differ at all from when Bane or Bhaal were dead, or the many deaths of Mystra... Except for the fact that while Bane and Bhaal were dead, no one tried to make a case that they weren't dead. And no one has tried to make the case that Mystryl and Mystra 1.0 aren't dead, either.
It's actually a good point to flip around -- what is so dramatically different about Leira that we have to continually question every canon source that flat out says she is dead, when this was not done for any other deity? No one has questioned whether or not Bane was dead, no one has questioned whether or not Bhaal was dead...
I'm not aware of any place in canon that says Ao is always truthful... But I'm also not aware of any reason at all that he would feel obligated to lie, and I'm similarly unaware of any past instances of him being untruthful.
All canon sources say Leira is dead. Nothing at all implies she isn't. Why do we keep questioning it? |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 06:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Deities in the Realms have come back from the dead before... But coming back from being dead does require being dead.
Leira being dead doesn't really differ at all from when Bane or Bhaal were dead, or the many deaths of Mystra... Except for the fact that while Bane and Bhaal were dead, no one tried to make a case that they weren't dead. And no one has tried to make the case that Mystryl and Mystra 1.0 aren't dead, either.
It's actually a good point to flip around -- what is so dramatically different about Leira that we have to continually question every canon source that flat out says she is dead, when this was not done for any other deity? No one has questioned whether or not Bane was dead, no one has questioned whether or not Bhaal was dead...
I'm not aware of any place in canon that says Ao is always truthful... But I'm also not aware of any reason at all that he would feel obligated to lie, and I'm similarly unaware of any past instances of him being untruthful.
All canon sources say Leira is dead. Nothing at all implies she isn't. Why do we keep questioning it?
That makes sense. I guess the converse of that is none of the aforementioned deities have the portfolio of lies/deception, which would indicate that if anyone would be lying, it would be her.
I need to find a way to place bets on both sides of the debate so that I come out on top no matter what...  |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 09:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's actually a good point to flip around -- what is so dramatically different about Leira that we have to continually question every canon source that flat out says she is dead, when this was not done for any other deity? No one has questioned whether or not Bane was dead, no one has questioned whether or not Bhaal was dead...
All canon sources say Leira is dead. Nothing at all implies she isn't. Why do we keep questioning it?
Unfortunately Wooly, this is just not the case. A time or two she has been listed as dead, but in most sources they say it is a mystery (examples to follow :P).
There is nothing about her - being dead or otherwise in 4th E - and I think we can all agree that it wouldn't matter if it did as all things divine in 4th E are to be cast aside.
In The 3rd Edition Campaign Setting source book it says nothing about her at all. The same is true of the Faiths and Pantheons book. The odd thing is that F&P does have a small section on dead powers but fails to name her...
On to 2nd Edition where all the hints and controversy come from :)
The old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover points out that: "since the church knows that most people believe the statements are lies, Leira could stage her own death, report the truth, and have everyone believe her dead. As usual, the gods aren't talking about this."
This is her write up in the 2nd Ed. Campaign Setting Box Set:
"Leira, the Lady of the Mists, is or was the goddess of deception and illusion, the Patroness of Illusionists and Liars. Her appearance, even her very existence, is in doubt. If she still exists, her home would be in the swirling mists of the plane of Limbo.
Leira is (was?) a chaotic neutral minor lesser power, little worshipped except by illusionists, who credit her with their language of Ruathlek.
Leira is believed to be dead, having perished in mysterious circumstances in the Time of Troubles, with her portfolio and worshippers picked up by another god or goddess. In the time since then, no power has stepped forward to claim Leiras small congregation, or to confirm or deny Leiras passing. The matter cannot rest long, and a definite response is sure to be forthcoming.
Finally, the Faiths And Avatars expansion from 2nd Ed. has a 4 page section about the dead gods - how they died, what that means, etc. Leira is not mentioned in it even once. Why not? Above I quoted the other hints from her write up later in the book in an earlier post.
In all, I'd say it is hardly as black and white as you believe it to be. Are there a couple times where it says she is dead in a source other than the passage we've been discussing from Prince Of Lies? Yes, but almost all of them then go on to say that it might be a lie.
I, for one, think that this could be made into the most interesting return for a deity FR has seen so far. The possibilities are literally limitless. All your questions as to why it would have been done have so many possible answers that could make for a great novel if taken up by one of the great writers FR has... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 12:40:12
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The 2E FRCS predates the revelation that Leira was dead.
But the write-up for Leira in Faiths & Avatars is quite clear. Page 93: "Despite a fog of counterclaims and declarations, Leira perished shortly after the Time of Troubles at the hands of Cyric and Mask (in the form of Godsbane)."
And I don't see how a failure to list a dead deity in a later source is proof of anything, especially after it is established in both fiction and sourcebooks that said deity is dead. Should we question the death of Ibrandul, based on a lack of mentions in 3E? Should we question the deaths of Murdane or Valigan Thirdborn, based on their lack of mention in 4E?
Actually, shouldn't the failure to mention her be considered further proof that she's dead? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jul 2014 12:43:42 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 13:08:12
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Yep. That's the write up I mentioned earlier. And the only time in any sourcebook I've seen anywhere that says flat out she is dead, despite other sources (even ones by the same writer) saying its possible she is not.
My point with the failure to list is that your argument was "All canon sources say Leira is dead. Nothing at all implies she isn't." There is only one source that says she is hands down dead and EVERYTHING ELSE implies she isn't. To make matters worse, unlike the others from the time of troubles her death occurs offstage. She's the - oh yeah by the way Leira is dead too. Do you honestly not see that as dubious when coupled with asides suggesting it is all deception created by the goddess of deception? What is more interesting and probable Cyric somehow manages to hunt down Leira - in her domain in Limbo mind you where he is totally out of his element, and then both surprise her and kill her there without being noticed by anyone for a while. Or the most complex deception in FR history coming right from the goddess of deception.
What is more the style of good old Ed Greenwood FR? A many layered subtle mystery or a hack & slash tableau?
By the way, I asked Ed this once and got his - Sorry I'm afraid I can't answer that question, which to me seemed like someone was going to write about it some time, but that was too long ago to hope its been in the works for so long. I'm going to stick with the much more interesting plot until comes out with a response like the line there from F&A saying that it is correct and all the rest is hogwash. I don't see that happening any time soon.
At any rate, clearly this is one where you and I will never see eye to eye :) And here I thought the Master of Mischief himself would be all for a goddess who's mischief spans centuries and dupes the biggest tool in the pantheon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 13:16:06
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| Please, show me a source that chronologically came after Faiths & Avatars that explicitly implies Leira is alive. An absence of mention is by no means an implication she's alive. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 13:34:37
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I question it (and note that I believe she is dead) because it's fun to speculate and as I said previously I actually like her as a deity. So I would be happy to have her back officially.
It's not worth getting worked up over, it's just fan musings on our part. I know she's dead officially...she's had over 100 years to make a comeback (officially that is) and I think she would have re-emerged if she'd been alive.
My take on this is that TSR/Wizbro didn't think she was a very popular deity and chose to leave her dead. Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul and especially Mystra were more popular (and people complained) so the powers that be brought them back in some fashion. Leira hasn't received nearly as much attention from the fans and has been left on the wayside. That's just what I think anyway.
But she's still interesting (moreso than many others IMHO) and bears a retake on her status of being/remaining dead. Again, IMHO. And I'm in complete agreement that her status as goddess of lies and illusions would make her return supremely interesting.
Cheers. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 04:18:37
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Aye, Leira is dead. Several 2e and 3e sources confirm this, as did Ao in Crucible as I recall.
There was, however, some hypothetical mental meanderings between George and Steven in '05 that basically posited the idea that Leira was still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 04:38:29
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According to what I've seen on this wiki, there are 3e books that say she is dead as well. Of course, the Grand History is one of them on page 144. Lost Empires also seems to have a mention on page 42. However, I no longer have my FR books to check since I put them away in storage.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Leira
It wouldn't surprise me either if somewhere in the FRCS or Faiths and Pantheons (In Cyric's entries) that there's not a mention of him killing her.
She was also probably killed off during the edition changes because in 2e there was no longer a separate illusion class/school and it got blended in with general wizard/mage mechanics.
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Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jul 2014 04:43:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 10:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye, Leira is dead. Several 2e and 3e sources confirm this, as did Ao in Crucible as I recall.
There was, however, some hypothetical mental meanderings between George and Steven in '05 that basically posited the idea that Leira was still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now.
Interesting that they were thinking along similar lines to me (Leira and Mask allied, especially since didn't Cyric kill Leira with Godsbane.... the same weapon that deceived Cyric and hid Kelemvor's soul from Cyric and was actually Mask). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11825 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 10:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
According to what I've seen on this wiki, there are 3e books that say she is dead as well. Of course, the Grand History is one of them on page 144. Lost Empires also seems to have a mention on page 42. However, I no longer have my FR books to check since I put them away in storage.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Leira
It wouldn't surprise me either if somewhere in the FRCS or Faiths and Pantheons (In Cyric's entries) that there's not a mention of him killing her.
She was also probably killed off during the edition changes because in 2e there was no longer a separate illusion class/school and it got blended in with general wizard/mage mechanics.
You know, I never put 2 and 2 together on that until you mentioned it just now. Yeah, they killed Bhaal because of the assassin loss even though people could be "assassins" without the class.... probably same reason for Leira. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Asmodeus is in trouble....
