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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 16:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You know, I never put 2 and 2 together on that until you mentioned it just now. Yeah, they killed Bhaal because of the assassin loss even though people could be "assassins" without the class.... probably same reason for Leira.
Indeed. It made sense to me that was the reason why because of the same reasons that TSR killed off Bhaal. The ToT was the event to explain the change from 1e to 2e after all, so a lot of the RP events happened because of mechanic changes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 23:19:18
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quote:
Indeed. It made sense to me that was the reason why because of the same reasons that TSR killed off Bhaal. The ToT was the event to explain the change from 1e to 2e after all, so a lot of the RP events happened because of mechanic changes.
And this is one of the reasons I think they should divorce the rules from the setting. There was no need to kill off the god of assassins and the goddess of illusionists just to explain away the changes in the rules. Especially since one can still BE an assassin or an illusionist. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2014 : 03:46:00
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| It's hard to sell a game setting when the game has no bearing on or connection to the setting. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2014 : 14:41:32
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| I'm not saying that Wizbro shouldn't sell the setting as applied to the rules (NPCs write-ups and whatnot). I'm saying that there's no need to adjust the setting to fit the rules as in the example of killing off gods to justify the changes. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2014 : 15:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I'm not saying that Wizbro shouldn't sell the setting as applied to the rules (NPCs write-ups and whatnot). I'm saying that there's no need to adjust the setting to fit the rules as in the example of killing off gods to justify the changes.
But you pretty much have to adjust the setting for the rulesets... What's the point of a goddess of illusionists when there are no illusionists? When all users of magic are treated identically, why should one group get a deity but not the others? Anyone can be an assassin -- but likewise, anyone can be an archer. Why a deity for one and not the other?
And how can you introduce new game elements to the setting if you're not going to change anything at all in the setting? If I read about a character who is a member of New Niftyclass 7, and I want to make my own New Niftyclass 7 character, I'm not going to play that character in a setting where it's not possible and/or doesn't fit. For example, I love the Realms... But my current character is a Gun Mage, in an Iron Kingdoms campaign. Gun Mages are from the Iron Kingdoms, so they make sense there. As much as I love the character and that concept, though, I'm not even going to try to play him in the Realms.
I'll agree that we don't need an RSE every week, and that the endless flood of RSEs has been ridiculous. But the published Realms is a game setting, and when the rules change, the published Realms has to change to still be a viable game setting. Some changes can be introduced without blowing up everything -- like the still-unexplained sudden use of magic among the previous non-magical dwarves. But some changes need a bigger explanation, and sometimes a major event is the best way to explain large or multiple changes. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2014 : 23:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye, Leira is dead. Several 2e and 3e sources confirm this, as did Ao in Crucible as I recall.
There was, however, some hypothetical mental meanderings between George and Steven in '05 that basically posited the idea that Leira was still around and secretly allied with Mask. Their aim: to steal control of the Shadow Weave from Shar who they've been running as their dupe for a while now.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. All it would take to reverse every word in the past saying she is dead is a sentence or two in 5th E stating this or some other plot for the future. It really could be any plot an author wanted because a goddess of mischief and magic could be playing at anything and we would not know until the endgame. I like the idea of Mask being her ally, it brings her into all the Cale novels plots without even having her name in print there :P |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2014 : 01:53:46
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Well she has been inactive for so many years she may as well be dead no matter what canon conflicts there may or may not be.
I tend to think of her as being dead. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2014 : 11:49:37
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I am not liking much of ANY of this retconning. I have read all of the sundering books, except for the most recent.
I hope that WOTC has a logical reason for these deities returning. I know that this is fantasy but this is straining my suspension of disbelief. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2014 : 18:56:26
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| The logical reason is to appease the people who buy their products. The drastic changes made in the past, for whatever reason, took an incredibly popular product and squashed its potential. At least to me, they seem to be trying to rectify a mistake. At the very least, the leaps one is asked to take to return the realms to its former unique glory are equal to or less than those that were taken taken to get to where we are. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2014 : 14:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The logical reason is to appease the people who buy their products. The drastic changes made in the past, for whatever reason, took an incredibly popular product and squashed its potential. At least to me, they seem to be trying to rectify a mistake. At the very least, the leaps one is asked to take to return the realms to its former unique glory are equal to or less than those that were taken taken to get to where we are.
Don't get me wrong. I 1000% agree with you that the changes of the spellplague were reckless and poorly thought out. Replacing whole nations with other nations is beyond foolish.
That said in fixing this problem I hope that they won't cause even more problems. Bringing back Bhaal and Myrkul and the like just reduces the drama of their deaths. Don't like that at all. I didn't even like the return of Bane (unless it is actually Xvim). |
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pukunui
Seeker
64 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2024 : 08:10:22
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Apologies for the thread necro. Just wanted to point out that the new 2024 DMG states that Asmodeus has the power of a lesser deity.
Also, although some 5e books made it seem like Laduguer and Deep Derra came back after the Second Sundering, according to Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, it's been Asmodeus All Along. From page 285: "Infernal Master. Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, impersonates duergar gods in order to cultivate evil within the hearts of duergar who are already corrupt. He offers them divine guidance and vengeance against their enemies while urging them to acts of brutality, all the while concealing his identity." |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2024 : 17:37:06
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| I think conflicting lore on whether the duergar gods are back or not is sort of the point. It allows for DMs to decide what they want and create stories around it if they choose or ignore it completely if they prefer. So if you liked 4E Realms, this works. If you hated it, it also works. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2024 : 22:00:42
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| I still doubt Asmodeus has any incentive to join the Faerunian pantheon and put himself under Ao's. His multispheric power outside Realmspace is irrelevant. If anything, becoming a god would be a net downgrade for Asmodeus. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2024 : 00:34:07
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| Besides, I don’t think there’s much beyond “cultish” behaviour for Asmodeus in the Realms. Davoren the Warlock [from Erik's Depths of Madness] was a worshipper of Asmodeus, and belonged to a cult of like-minded individuals… which suggests that the Ninth Lord has only some cults scattered around in Faerűn. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2024 : 19:07:56
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| Yeah, they may say that in the 2024 DMG, but personally I'm not big on it. If anything, have Gargauth return and take over Asmodeus' cults. I also like the idea of Deep Duerra and Laduguer returning. I'm all for there being different gods for the Duergar (Orcus, Laduguer, Deep Duerra, etc..) and the duergar having different types of communities as a result. For instance, communities of duergar worshipping orcus should be using undead as workers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2024 : 21:13:20
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| We are in the 1505 DR, according to the last Drizzt novel, and Asmodeus was never in trouble. Even more. seems all this was just according to keikaku all along. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2024 : 12:04:16
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quote:
Originally posted by pukunui
Apologies for the thread necro. Just wanted to point out that the new 2024 DMG states that Asmodeus has the power of a lesser deity.
Also, although some 5e books made it seem like Laduguer and Deep Derra came back after the Second Sundering, according to Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, it's been Asmodeus All Along. From page 285: "Infernal Master. Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, impersonates duergar gods in order to cultivate evil within the hearts of duergar who are already corrupt. He offers them divine guidance and vengeance against their enemies while urging them to acts of brutality, all the while concealing his identity."
The two don't contradict each other at all. It's not like it's stated that all instances of duergar deities worship/spell-granting are tied to Asmodues. The duergar deities can be active, and Asmodeus can also sometimes pretend to be them to foster evil and other BS. Deities who masquerade as other deities have been a thing in mythologies since forever. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2024 : 23:31:08
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| Yep! Happened all the time in the 2e PLANESCAPE lore. I can remember numerous references to deities masquerading as other powers, for various reasons, in all of the “Planes of ….. “ boxed sets. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Asmodeus is in trouble....
