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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 08 May 2014 : 16:51:22
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IF 5eFR turns out to be a stellar hit, and the fans clamor for it, there is a remote possibility of seeing a future K-T product (which is pretty-much what James Wyatt said at gencon 2012, in different words - "unlikely, but nothing is off-the-table")
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
It also was never truly revised into 2e before the release of Kara-Tur... <snip>
Ronin Challenge was the 2e update for the K-T/OA material.
Not saying it did the best job of it, but that was part of its purpose. Despite its flaws, still my favorite OA-FR product outside of the K-T box itself.
Kara-Tur history is spread all over the place, and in some rather obscure sources (Book of artifacts, Hall of Heroes, etc), but when you put it altogether its pretty damn cool, and really does fit well with the rest of FR (unlike Zakhara, which sadly is redundant with too much of the Realms' own cultures).
The Horde was also another excellent, if oft-overlooked, product, and did a bang-up job of sewing the two campaign settings together. Not perfect... but pretty damn good (especially for 2e). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2014 : 17:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ronin Challenge was the 2e update for the K-T/OA material.
In fact, I wanted to say that the classes weren't revised, as the spell levels, and so on, as it was made with other 1e books.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Horde was also another excellent, if oft-overlooked, product, and did a bang-up job of sewing the two campaign settings together. Not perfect... but pretty damn good (especially for 2e).
I also like The Horde very much, there are some nations there that could use a little attention.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 May 2014 17:47:21 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2014 : 23:03:45
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Does Kara-Tur deserve more attention? Certainly.
Will it receive it? Probably not.
At least not a full book's worth. Not even as 32 or 64-page gazetteers, where they would only be presented as an adjunct to the main FR setting as a once in a blue-moon visit locales. Kara-Tur needs at least 128-pages (preferably 160 to 190 page) minimum to present a working overview of the core kingdoms. I can't see Wizards putting that on their schedule when even other major settings like Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance haven't received a proper update for the latest edition.
Considering the pull back on Dragon/Dungeon, mainstream D&D might not even have enough coverage in digital sources, for a while at least.
Even then, I wonder whether an update of Kara-tur 'as is' would be a good idea. On my last read through of the material, it was at least one-third blatant historical copy-paste with the bare minimal of obfuscation. Perhaps not a linear lift of the timeline, but the relationships between entities and polities held a bit too close for the thing to live and breath on its own, while enough pieces were left out to make things jarring.
TSR was able to get away with this mostly because non-European history has always taken a back seat to Western Euro-centric and American history in schools. People may not have known enough to notice. Also, because that may have been what was demanded at the time since there were few Far Eastern RPG offerings. People who did notice didn't care as it was still something and the new shiny.
The trouble with this is any other game or RPG that adheres to an actual historical basis or, alternatively, inspired by Asian media/cinema/genres has done it better.
A generous third of the setting was just plain, paint-by-numbers generic setting filler. Maybe a third had interesting ideas. Problem is by the time the good third shows up, it's been distributed haphazardly amongst a lot of bland or outright silly stuff. The result is something that not only doesn't fit with the tone of the Realms, but is inconsistent in tone within itself.
In the thirty years since OA 1E released when all of this started, the Western concept of the Far East has evolved far beyond the initial impression from chop-socky martial arts and ninja grind-house cinema that informed KT. Not to mention OA/KT is a rather poor presentation of those genre anyway.
While the Realms has various facelifts throughout the years, KT has remained in stasis the whole time. It's not an issue of adding a hundred years to the KT timeline and republishing the material with 5E rules. Current gamers (old and new) grew up on anime more than western animation (and western animation taking cues from anime), they've seen the boom in Asian-inspired horror movies (where the creatures and imagery of Eastern mythology were utilized), and bigger budget Wu Xia films with modern effects, video games with the graphical capabilities to match the visual insight of Eastern designers. Not to mention, some actual tabletop RPGs from Japan have started to be translated and are making their way here.
The intended audience and market is more sophisticated and more well versed in Asian history, culture, genre tropes, references now than Kara-Tur was ever designed to be.
To be successful, the setting will need a major overhaul either way. Or Wizards could go the reprint with updated rules route, but I have a feeling the offering will be laughed off into bad-review land compared to what's out there nowadays.
A possible strategy is to start from square one (bit of a retcon, I know). Take the good, don't mention the bland or derivative components, redesign the entire thing by using history and fantasy concepts as tools to build up from the foundation, all adapted to the specifics of the setting.
Then we get into the issue with finding designers well-versed in the source material and who can supply the setting with a voice and a vision at the onset that will carry on through various subsequent designers and writers. Voice, tone, and presentation can trump a lot of the problems with relying on standard tropes, but it's not every day you find people who can define a setting like a Gygax, Weis/Hickman, Grubb, Greenwood, Baker, Elmore, Brom, DiTerlizzi, or Reynolds (and anyone else I missed). |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2014 : 01:39:22
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As for other Oriental culture RPGs we have Dragon Fist, the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, the 3e OA and some others... My brother recently found the Qin: the Warring States RPG that is very nice, on China at the time of the warring states, and the same company also has another RPG - or an expansion, I'm not sure - set in another time in Chinese history, this one with martial arts.
EDIT: The name of this expansion is Shaolin et Wudang, and it seems it is not translated to English this far (but this translation is planned). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 09 May 2014 12:20:28 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2014 : 04:15:06
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After a quick Google search I found a decent sampling. These are the names that come up a few times:
* Bushido - One of the most venerable RPGs (Editions in 1979, 1980, and 1981) with an Eastern setting and in fact one of the first RPGs with a non-European inspired setting (the claim of very first goes to Empire of the Petal Throne, I believe). Set in a fantasy version of Japan, aptly named Nippon. The publisher Fantasy Games Unlimited doesn't seem to have it listed on their site, the link leads to the page at DriveThruRPG.
* Legend of the Five Rings - Probably needs no introduction. RPG based on the CCG and has its own d10 system. It was once converted to d20 by WotC for OA 3E, which is poorly regarded by fans, but I have a bunch of the books (including the ones put out by Alderac) and they served my OA fix for many years. The latest 4th edition (of the d10 system) is still in print with gorgeous art drawn from the card game. Having actually seen it in stores (and it's one of the few, the only?, Eastern fantasy RPGs commonly found in standard distribution), it's a glorious tome to behold.
* Qin: The Warring States - A game based on the Qin dynasty, but with magic. It's a classless system. As noted on the site, it's a TWO TIMES ENNIE SILVER AWARD WINNER 2007 - "Best Interior Art" and "Best Game"!
* Sengoku - A well regarded (going by reviews) and more recent game (c. 2000s) using the Fuzion system that is flexible enough to play historical or fantastical games based on "Chanbara Roleplaying in Feudal Japan" (the secondary title), likely focusing on the eponymous era of the game. Has conversion notes for other popular systems such as: Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, Bushido, Chivalry & Sorcery Light, GURPS, HERO System, Legend of the Five Rings (L5R) RPG, Usagi Yojimbo RPG. Game's site seems to have lapse, link leads to DriveThru again.
Of note, the Usagi Yojimbo RPG also uses Fusion system, so these two games may be related, except the latter has the anthropomorphic characters from the comics (and in those crossovers with the TMNT).
* Jadeclaw - Speaking of anthropomorphic animals, Jadeclaw is a RPG inspired by the wu xia genre except with furries. Despite the animal characters, some regard it as one of the better adaptation of the genre.
* Palladium Fantasy - accomplished via Ninjas & Superspies and Mystic China, and speaking of TMNT, there's also the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness. All the martial arts food groups are covered here, but mostly listed here because of TMNT.
* GURPS - Does everything. GURPS China, GURPS Japan.
* Weapon of the Gods - A wu xia RPG based on the Hong Kong comic. Reviews tend to say this is one of the better games for the genre. I believe after the license lapse, Eos Press reworked the system for their own game, Legends of the Wulin.
* Feng Shui - A game seeking to emulate the action movies from Asia (originally based on the Shadowfist card game of the same theme), Feng Shui has been around since 1996 and a new edition is in the works, with the original designer. The system is versatile enough to jump right into pseudo-historical period fantasy, and the Thorns of the Lotus supplement is just that (a setting with tyrannical enunch warlords and stalwart martial arts heroes fighting their oppression).
* Hong Kong Action Theatre! - As above, might have even come first, but I think the above may be more popular and/or better supported. The trend of this one may also lean more modern, but it has the mythic China supplement Blue Dragon, White Tiger, so that solves that.
* Tenra Bansho Zero - A translation of an RPG from Japan, I'll just let this one descript itself: "Tenra Bansho Zero is a Japanese Storytelling Game of "Hyper-Asian Fantasy", in the author's own words. Conceived, designed and illustrated by famous manga author Junichi Inoue (and featuring gorgeous art from illustrators Hiroyuki Ishida, Rasenjin Hayami and others), Tenra Bansho Zero is one of the most recognized "Made in Japan" tabletop role-playing games." The translation and printing was funded via Kickstarter.
* Tianxia: Blood, Silk & Jade - A adaptation of the wu xia genre using the Fate Core System. A recent release and funded on Kickstarter.
* Jadepunk: Tales From Kausao City - Another wu xia game in a Chinese-inspired setting using the Fate Core system, but this heads into steampunk territory. Another Kickstarter funded project.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 10 May 2014 04:21:01 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2014 : 19:11:09
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A friend of mine who studies psychology (and, thus, is interested in the psychology of the economic market) told me how WotC lags behind on keeping up with trends, or have an issue with copying trends without being original (such as 4th Edition).
There has been a strong surge of "otaku" in this country (and others, like France), and for WotC to lag behind on their Oriental Adventures material is such a foolish venture.
Kara-Tur I have always believed needed to be given the attention it deserves. Always throughout my past 16 years of gaming, have I received players of all types play in my games and it always came down to "Let's make ninjas!" or "Why don't we make eastern characters?" or "Let's have adventures where the setting is all Japanese!"
I never did get a full OA campaign running. It was simply too much work. The 1E and 3E OA helped somewhat, and Kara-Tur supplements were fun but, like others would agree, they're too analogous to real world places. Not that I have a problem with some resemblances (a Japanese setting is vastly different from Chinese, for example, and both deserve a place in fantasy gaming) to real world cultures, but nigh-direct copies are a no no.
My other issue was I always felt the history and regional backgrounds were extremely humanocentric. I was hoping to see more mingling of other OA creatures in Kara-Tur, but I felt like all the cool OA fantasy material was always in the background of the human dynamic.
Here's to hoping Kara-Tur gets a full-fledged hardcover, or maybe its own WotC sanctioned web articles! |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 13:56:44
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In order for setting to really be interesting for me is it important it has a eastern part. It is probably due to my choice as a European citizen (danish) to marry a chinese girl.
One of the advantages of Golarion as a setting is the presence of Eastern realms. I would have liked, if FR had done more with Kara-tur in the 3e days.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shou seems... <major snippage>
The problem with the K-T material was never the material itself - most of it was presented in a very loose, 1e fashion, similar to the OGB. The problem stems from people's lack of knowledge of the FULL EXTENT of the K-T material, in all its glorious potential. Instead, people like to point out the 33% (rough estimate) of stuff that is 'derivative' of the RW, and not the 67% that is very cool and very original.
Had they decided to develop Kara-Tur as a setting in its own right (rather then make the bumbling error of supporting 5Rings in 3e), they could have focused on all those original bits, and applied all of that wonderful RW history you just mentioned to a vibrant fantasy setting, and come-up with something glorious (because the same types of things would have wanted to happen, but the nature of the setting would have made those sorts of events play-out VERY differently).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
The funny thing is, you know continued support for Kara-Tur would sell, if no reason other than 4e/5e/6e updates to the D&D rules regarding rules with 'Eastern flavor'.
Yes, Kara-Tur had immeasurable potential, and as proven by the K-T thread/project, tons of people were interested in it (or, at least, the new stuff WE were coming up for it).
But, they must now realize they the raw talent to do that sort of thing - spruce it all up and make people drool for more - is not available to WotC anymore (at least not in-house). If they were to do anything with it, it would be a meager, half-hearted attempt... and they know that.
Thus, I applaud them for knowing their own limitations. If you can't do something right, just leave it the hell alone.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 19:14:47
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| I can't speak to actual numbers, but based on reading through Paizo's forums, the Jade Regent AP seemed well recieved. I've yet to play it through, but have read it several times and look forward to playing it one day. So, yes I do think there is a huge ammount of potential there for the FR, but it would indeed be a massive undertaking and I'm quite positive that WotC no longer has the creative team it would take to develop. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 19:28:00
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| I would like to see all of lands mass of Toril to have their own source book - like the FRCS. That would be awesome. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 20:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I can't speak to actual numbers, but based on reading through Paizo's forums, the Jade Regent AP seemed well recieved. I've yet to play it through, but have read it several times and look forward to playing it one day. So, yes I do think there is a huge ammount of potential there for the FR, but it would indeed be a massive undertaking and I'm quite positive that WotC no longer has the creative team it would take to develop.
I did buy the Jade Regent Adventure Path. Well, just in case i want to run it one day. Sadly i did not manage to pick up carrion crown and curse of the crimson throne while they could be brought but i have all the other adventure paths with the exception of the Iron Gods since i do not like steam punkt. Well, i did buy the numeria guide and the technology guide, but that was only in order to support the setting and in order to know what i would have to reflavour or find solutions to avoid in my games. Considering, that some druids via high level magic could have limited the area were numeria artifacts can be used. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 17:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I would like to see all of lands mass of Toril to have their own source book - like the FRCS. That would be awesome.
I'm surprised they didn't take that approach. People always talk about the Forgotten Realms is one of the most developed settings there is. To quote 1d4chan, "there is not one square inch of Toril Faerūn that has not had a dead forest's worth of material written about it." So to hear that the setting has hundreds of novels, dozens of sourcebooks, computer games, comic books, magazine articles, and they still have several entire continents that don't get much focus seems strange. I would've thought they'd want to exploit every area they could. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 21:08:56
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There are tons and tons of regions that received little to no detail in the setting... and probably never will.
The idea that FR was 'too detailed' was a false one, and started by FR-naysayers. Fans wanted more material, and non-fans less. They catered to the non-fans (interesting business model there). At least the people who weren't buying FR products - and still aren't - are happy now.
Personally, I think they could have published Volo's Guides until the end of time, but whatever. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 21:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There are tons and tons of regions that received little to no detail in the setting... and probably never will.
The idea that FR was 'too detailed' was a false one, and started by FR-naysayers. Fans wanted more material, and non-fans less. They catered to the non-fans (interesting business model there). At least the people who weren't buying FR products - and still aren't - are happy now.
Personally, I think they could have published Volo's Guides until the end of time, but whatever.
Indeed. Even in Waterdeep, perhaps the most detailed area in the Realms, it's easy enough to find buildings on the map that aren't even mentioned in source material, or alleys that exist as little more than a blurb...
And then there's Sembia... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 05:15:40
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| And we haven't even left Faerūn-proper yet... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 10:12:29
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Indeed there is a lot of unexplored stuff, even in good old Faerun.
About Kara-Tur, I wish they explored the connection between Oriental Dragons, and the rest of the Dragons. What is especialy fascinating, Gold Dragons in older editions looked exacly like Chinese Dragons. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 14:42:50
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In my own homebrewed over-cosmology, I have it where Lung dragons are the result of Celestial (Bureaucracy) Dragons - who are outsiders - mating with terrestrial (western) dragons. Thus, every Lung dragon is a type of Assimar (half-celestial)... although once again, after tens of thousands of years, they are now 'their own thing'. I suppose their could be some Celestial blood amongst the Gold dragons as well (although this would be more diluted, and thus only an occasional Gold Dragon would exhibit those traits).
It goes a bit deeper then that as well - the word 'dragon' actually comes from the word Drae-Kan, which means 'Great Power' in the High Tongue of the ancient Celestials. The original over-over powers (I guess you might term them uber-primordials) were called this, and were the very first beings to come into existence in this universe. These beings created lesser forms of themselves - the Celestial dragons, who were the Overseers during the initial construction of the First (True) World.
The Planer Titans (jötnar) were the builders of that world, and created Terrestrial dragons from Celestial Dragons and Drakes, to help them in their work building the universe (along with the dwarves, who were created from the blood of Ymir to help with 'the details'). As the new dragons evolved a certain level of sophistication on their own (at first they were used merely as 'living construction equipment'), they rebelled. The dwarves were expected to help the giants against them, but in the end they, too, rebelled (disgusted by the fact they were being used as 'canon fodder', amongst other things). All three races haven't gotten along since.
After the destruction of The First World (Midgard), the new universe was formed from the shattered (Sundered?) body of Ymir, the giants were ousted from their homeland (mostly by the newly-arrived Fey, who renamed the Giant Realms 'The Feywild'), and the dragons were imprisoned in suspended animation (where they were eventually accidentally freed - probably by The Fey - to 'rain down' on unsuspecting prime worlds). Death also came into being during that conflagration, and all creatures born later in the Prime Material were no longer of celestial (Outsider) origin, and thus the lesser (terrestrial) variants came to be (including elves, who were the mortal children of the Fey).
Like I said, all homebrew, to explain some of the anomalies/discrepancies/derivations of all the worlds, creatures, and cultures. All things are inter-related. This is part of the Tablets of Destiny (not to be confused with Tablet of Destinies, associated with Tiamat) - a piece I was writing for the Elven Netbook Project which was never finished. They are ancient tablets that were partially translated by Centaur Scholars, a copy of which was given to the NPC I created for that project). Since later parts of the tablets concern the myth of Corellon and Gruumsh being related, both the elves (and feykind) and the Goblinoids (especially the Orcs) consider these works to be the greatest heresy, and are destroyed whenever encountered. A copy of them was gifted to Evermeet (and was poorly received), and another to candlekeep... where it is locked-away in their deepest vaults.
All non-canon, mind you. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2015 14:57:46 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2015 : 14:56:47
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| Cool ideas Markustay. Yeah, I think it would make sense that Gold Dragons have more of the Celestial traits, especialy that Gold Dragons are sometimes described as the greatest and strongest among terrestial Dragons. |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 19:05:25
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| I wish Kara-Tur could be given a Pathfinder-like treatment (in terms of what Pathfinder did for their Oriental setting, Tian-Xia). to make it more unique with both a blend of the RW and original ideas, and also updated ideas. I also wish there would have been more demihuman countries and cultures about, like someone else already mentioned here, I find Kara-Tur very human-dominated. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 20:31:42
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The demi-humans are there, they are just hidden away in all the badly organized lore. I've read through the boxed set, cover-to-cover, about a dozen times, and I was still finding stuff I missed the first few read-throughs.
They aren't the same as the ones in the west, but do they all have a counterpart. For example, the most familiar would be their dwarves, but most folks don't know there is even a 'smaller variety' (about 3') living in the mountains in the Ama Basin. That would be the equivalent of Faerūn's gnomes - more reclusive and private then the others.
And because it had a detailed map but was never detailed with lore (anywhere), I turned Petan into a 'catfolk' region. 
So very much potential there, but they took the 'easy way out' in 3e and used another setting for OA. {sigh} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Does kara-tur deserve deeper attention?
