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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 02:03:49
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I don't mean the red wizards but I mean waayyy east , where kara-tur is and everyone's favorite eastern flavored countries.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 02:35:21
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| It would rock if they did in my opinion. I still have the 2e KT stuff boxed up, but we used to play the heck out of it. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 03:00:58
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| Yeah I'd like to see them revisit the region, though without quite so much RW similarity. Rokugan was a good setting that would have been a good addition to the Realms had things played out that way to begin with (I'm not calling for a retcon of Rokugan into the Realms). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 15:04:45
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| I think it does have a place, but it needs to be a bit more connected to the Faerun. Something on Zakhara would be also nice, and there are allready some connections between, and even some of the gods can be conected with the Faerun ones(like Selan and Selune, especialy that Selune was a goddes of beauty and love to the Netherese). The situation is a bit harder with Kara-Tur, but the excelent 'The Horde' campain rulebook does some work on this. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 15:10:37
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Absolutely Vital I think.
I think both Zakhara and Kara tur should get more attention. Just not dumb attention like the developers gave to Faerun with the Spellplague. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2014 : 15:23:48
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| I would love to see more Kara-Tur (and Zakhara too) as long as it doesn't get the fantasia asia overhype (aka our swords are so much better than yours, our moves are so much better than yours, etc.) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 01:45:36
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| -Absolutely it does. The Kara-Tur: Re-Dux (http://community.wizards.com/forum/forgotten-realms/threads/1105126) is probably the closest we'll ever get to that. With the amount of Forgotten Realms products trimmed down as compared to past years, and production space limited as it is, its highly doubtful that we'll see anything substantial on Kara-Tur, a continent that (a) takes second fiddle in the campaign setting it is located in and (b) that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, be it because they don't like Eastern mythos, feel it is too much of a hodge-podge job of real-life Asia, was an add-on to the setting and shouldn't be there in the first place, and so on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 01 May 2014 01:46:46 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 04:26:44
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yes they should.
KAra-tur, Zakhara and maztica each should get more attention and a seperate setting book to go with it......
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
161 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 07:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
I think it does have a place, but it needs to be a bit more connected to the Faerun.
word. i ran the karatur boxed set and eastern realm...thing...and the friggin...what the hell were they called. The three mods with the nightmare horse and the purple dragon.
anyway, i hated that it wasn't connected to my normal realms. |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 12:09:55
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| Well, that's partially because Kara-Tur and Oriental adventures didn't take place in the realms. Then again Moonshae,(partially)Netheril and Uthgadt tribes also were originally part not located in Faerun, but got integrated much better, and in Netheril's case, even play out a crucial role in the Forgotten Realms mythos. But I see a lot of potential in Kara-Tur, so I think it deserves attention. A new, official Map showing all of Toril would be great, but that's sadly pretty unlikely. The Horde campaign book mentioned earlier by me does some work to integrate Faerun and Kara-Tur, as do fan projects like mentioned earlier The Kara-Tur: Re-Dux, as does the Imaskar Empire http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13719 by our fellow scribe Snowblood. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 13:35:56
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I've played a few campaigns in Kara-Tur and have another on the backburner for play in maybe a year or so.
I have lots of japanophile players and they always go straight to Wa or Kozakura, spending as little time on the mainland as possible (unless they get to play with Mad Monkey). |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 23:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, that's partially because Kara-Tur and Oriental adventures didn't take place in the realms.
This is not quite correct. The original Oriental Adventures sourcebook, and the first few modules, were not specifically set in the Realms. The rest of the material was in the Realms, and carried the FR imprint on the cover.
Later material, more specific to the Heartlands area, has included plenty of references to Kara-Tur -- mostly, to Shou Lung. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 02:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Absolutely it does. The Kara-Tur: Re-Dux (http://community.wizards.com/forum/forgotten-realms/threads/1105126) is probably the closest we'll ever get to that. With the amount of Forgotten Realms products trimmed down as compared to past years, and production space limited as it is, its highly doubtful that we'll see anything substantial on Kara-Tur, a continent that (a) takes second fiddle in the campaign setting it is located in and (b) that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, be it because they don't like Eastern mythos, feel it is too much of a hodge-podge job of real-life Asia, was an add-on to the setting and shouldn't be there in the first place, and so on.
A project we all walked away from - along with others - when 4e reared its head. There was no point in 'bringing it back' at that point, since no-one would tell us what happened to it.
So that was that, and should give you some indication about how the folks in charge feel.
We will get the same 5-6 Realms books we get every time, and then 6e will be on its way. The CG, Waterdeep, Drow, etc. Thats how it works. They are only allowed to produce products that are guaranteed to hit certain projection numbers. Kara-Tur is way too 'iffy'.
Which is a damn shame. So much potential wasted. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 May 2014 02:28:50 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 03:14:34
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A focus on Kara-Tur kinda invites a lot of attention to smokepowder, preposterous Shaolin monks, inventions like the Sembia Far East Tea Trading Company, and (dare I say it?) reconnections to the defunct Spelljammer campaign and wherever else that may lead.
My players, some of whom are in fact Asians, naturally view OA materials in an almost racist fashion. "Oh look, the NPC has slanted eyes! He'll destroy us, run!" Partly this was due to the comparative superiority of OA classes/spells/gear vs their generic PHB counterparts - I hope that newer OA-themed material would do a better job of balancing the old disparities, and that it is able to better blend setting themes without imposing the old strict East/West division in gamestyles. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 03:19:01
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| I would say yes - I would like to see all the areas of the Realms |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 14:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A focus on Kara-Tur kinda invites a lot of attention to smokepowder, preposterous Shaolin monks, inventions like the Sembia Far East Tea Trading Company, and (dare I say it?) reconnections to the defunct Spelljammer campaign and wherever else that may lead.
My players, some of whom are in fact Asians, naturally view OA materials in an almost racist fashion. "Oh look, the NPC has slanted eyes! He'll destroy us, run!" Partly this was due to the comparative superiority of OA classes/spells/gear vs their generic PHB counterparts - I hope that newer OA-themed material would do a better job of balancing the old disparities, and that it is able to better blend setting themes without imposing the old strict East/West division in gamestyles.
Yeah but with the Sembian Far East Tea Company comes a reamsian IPA equivalent! Shou Lung Pale Ale SPA!
HOPS are better than magic!!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 17:43:59
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You don't necessarily have to include colonial-era racism in a game involving Kara-Tur. Those that do just don't have any original ideas.
With the notable exception of the katana and its derivative blades, technology from Kara-Tur can be more innovative but it shouldn't be superior in any other way - exploration of the eastern realms should be a way to introduce new ideas to the world, not universally better ones.
The Kara-Tur I've DM'd for has been a different experience for western gamers. There's always a downside to every innovation: The government of Shou Lung may be a meritocracy with constant reviews leading to the weeding out of inferior officials, but it's also so bloated that it takes much longer for the political wheels to turn, plus, bribery is just as rife in the east as it is in the west.
Ninjas may be masters of stealth but not that much more so than a rogue, plus, the ninja version of sneak attack is not as useful as the rogue version because it doesn't affect flanked targets.
I could go on... |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2014 : 22:56:03
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Shou seems - just as the pastiche-historical China it was modelled upon - to be something like a warlord-infested totalitarian-Feudal Imperial beauracracy. Imperial favour requires crazily successful deeds of heroism, friends and connections, social status and bloodline, and of course an endless supply of generous bribes to lubricate the wheels of government.
In our world, mainstream contact with the Orient brought tea, spices, non-perishable foodstuffs, innovations like paper money (replacing letters of credit from banking/mercentile houses), pottery/ceramics/crystal/glassware (European Kings actually hired alchemists to duplicate the secret of Fine China, hoping to gain local monopolies worth even more than the promise of transmuting base metals into gold). Surprisingly, Oriental artwork, crafts, and architecture were low-value ventures, those European collectors who could afford such stuff uniformly disdained it as lacking proper merits. Asian philosophies, religions, and sciences received only a nominal reception, although Asian treatises about warfare, weaponry, and castle architecture were gobbled up by the West. Chinese metallurgy was generally inferior, being based largely on cast pig-iron pours rather than forge-wrought steel, but they had far superior kilns, the work of their bladesmiths became reknowned worldwide, and their laminated armour technologies were technically far better (lighter, tougher, more flexible, immune to corrosion, cheaper, easier to build/maintain/repair) than latest-generation quality plate. Although they possessed gunpowders forever, and even all sorts of rocketry weapons, even tremendous rocket dreadnoughts and seige engines, the Orient never properly developed any firearms, cannons, or artillery before being spurned onwards by advancements in the Western world.
Of course the West also imported Chinese people in great numbers - the overwhelming majority of which were slaves, although a few healers, scholars, and specialists as well. Asian missionaries and religions were not tolerated nor successful, outside of academic curiousity. Still, the Asian peoples brought with them much of their culture, food, skills, knowledge, and techniques never invented in the West. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 May 2014 23:02:29 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 03:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Absolutely Vital I think.
I think both Zakhara and Kara tur should get more attention. Just not dumb attention like the developers gave to Faerun with the Spellplague.
Agree 100%.
Some of my best gaming memories involved the sands of the Land of Fate. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 04:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We will get the same 5-6 Realms books we get every time, and then 6e will be on its way. The CG, Waterdeep, Drow, etc. Thats how it works. They are only allowed to produce products that are guaranteed to hit certain projection numbers. Kara-Tur is way too 'iffy'.
Which is a damn shame. So much potential wasted.
-The funny thing is, you know continued support for Kara-Tur would sell, if no reason other than 4e/5e/6e updates to the D&D rules regarding rules with 'Eastern flavor'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 17:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shou seems... <major snippage>
The problem with the K-T material was never the material itself - most of it was presented in a very loose, 1e fashion, similar to the OGB. The problem stems from people's lack of knowledge of the FULL EXTENT of the K-T material, in all its glorious potential. Instead, people like to point out the 33% (rough estimate) of stuff that is 'derivative' of the RW, and not the 67% that is very cool and very original.
Had they decided to develop Kara-Tur as a setting in its own right (rather then make the bumbling error of supporting 5Rings in 3e), they could have focused on all those original bits, and applied all of that wonderful RW history you just mentioned to a vibrant fantasy setting, and come-up with something glorious (because the same types of things would have wanted to happen, but the nature of the setting would have made those sorts of events play-out VERY differently).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
The funny thing is, you know continued support for Kara-Tur would sell, if no reason other than 4e/5e/6e updates to the D&D rules regarding rules with 'Eastern flavor'.
Yes, Kara-Tur had immeasurable potential, and as proven by the K-T thread/project, tons of people were interested in it (or, at least, the new stuff WE were coming up for it).
But, they must now realize they the raw talent to do that sort of thing - spruce it all up and make people drool for more - is not available to WotC anymore (at least not in-house). If they were to do anything with it, it would be a meager, half-hearted attempt... and they know that.
Thus, I applaud them for knowing their own limitations. If you can't do something right, just leave it the hell alone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 May 2014 16:40:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2014 : 17:50:55
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| I have to admit, I didn't buy the original OA. The reason was that at the time I didn't have the money and they were putting out a new setting every year or 6 months it seemed like. As a result, my knowledge of Kara-Tur is limited in the extreme. So, for someone like me, if someone were to update K-T now, it would be like a totally new campaign to me. What little knowledge I have comes from other setting's interactions with K-T (such as spelljammer and the works of FR). I'd really like to see someone take a high level introduction swipe at a revamp of all 3 of the regions with an edition neutral knife (or possibly some 3e, PF, and D&D next ruleset additions if something needs mechanical exploration.... if they worked in some 4e ruleset pieces it wouldn't break my heart). For instance, have K-T and the hordelands and Zakhara interacted more in the last hundred years. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2014 : 18:50:34
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| If the eastern realms are touched upon AT ALL, I reckon it will all be concentrated on the so-called 'shou towns'. With a shou town as far west as Marsember at last look, why go all the way east when the east has already come west? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2014 : 02:43:50
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I think there was a problem in using Kara-Tur: OA was made for 1e, which had stronger classes than 2e (this is one of the reasons why the eastern classes were mightier). It also was never truly revised into 2e before the release of Kara-Tur, and after the ninja wave of the 80s (that came after the karate/kung fu wave of the 70s) it seem there was no interest in develop it further. Besides, unlike the Arabian Adventures, it seems the Eastern Realms were not developed with a nice research, and many names and concepts were quite strange for those who know RW eastern cultures (I know there are those arguments on having an independent fantasy culture, but I truly like the idea that Toril was to have the Forgotten Realms which were acessible in the past, and would be the origin of many of our RW legends, and that's why I like Al-Qadim, very much). Although Rokugan is nice, I didn't understand why the 3e Oriental Adventures mixed Lo5R and KT elements...
So, I'm making my own review, not in the KT boxed set, but in OA 1e, from a few years now. And theoretically, one would use KT with almost no modifications, only considering the conversion notes to 2e, in my update work. I have no pretension in publishing it, and probably will not have the opportunity to use it fully in my games. But I'll divulge it to my friends, and make it because I once practiced martial arts and respect and like some eastern cultural elements and concepts.
EDIT: My review makes the eastern classes more balanced with the western ones, especially in martial arts - I use a lot of the revised system of the Complete Ninja's, but made the more supernatural powers as psionics, which some classes can use in concert with martial arts (like monks, which must develop mind and body). So, of course the legendary feats are there, but they are for high level characters, and of course those are the feats that become legend and travel half Toril making their fame (usually exaggerated). Of course, if someone has interest in it, I can send it, although it is not ready.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 05 May 2014 18:50:38 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2014 : 07:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My players, some of whom are in fact Asians, naturally view OA materials in an almost racist fashion. " Partly this was due to the comparative superiority of OA classes/spells/gear
Nothing says raciest, like saying they are better then you. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2014 : 03:27:47
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The racism issues were never a prominent theme, but still, they were pervasive and sometimes translated all too well into unfavourable real-world anecdotes.
Not at all an issue when dealing with other D&D races - this elf or that elf, purebred vs halfbred orcs, mongrel planetouched scum, etc. But, in combination with the overwhelming advantages the then-new OA material offered, collectively superior to the all the generic archetypical PHB stuff ... well, it just seems like a bit of poor planning by TSR. Nobody can take it personally when one claims this brand of dwarf is a superior race with superior racial abilities and advantages, but people tend to react more strongly when such claims are made about one human group over another human group. What were they thinking? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2014 : 04:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The racism issues were never a prominent theme, but still, they were pervasive and sometimes translated all too well into unfavourable real-world anecdotes.
Not at all an issue when dealing with other D&D races - this elf or that elf, purebred vs halfbred orcs, mongrel planetouched scum, etc. But, in combination with the overwhelming advantages the then-new OA material offered, collectively superior to the all the generic archetypical PHB stuff ... well, it just seems like a bit of poor planning by TSR. Nobody can take it personally when one claims this brand of dwarf is a superior race with superior racial abilities and advantages, but people tend to react more strongly when such claims are made about one human group over another human group. What were they thinking?
Well... For a lot of folks, their knowledge of things Asian comes entirely from the entertainment industry. And for a lot of that, it's movies like Flying People, Hidden Wires Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
We're roleplayers, but we like our movies, too. We see someone casually soaring 20 feet into the air on what looked like a bunny hop, we want to do it, too...
Maybe that's what the OA designers were trying to do: capture the movies, not the reality. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2014 : 14:01:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...)
We see someone casually soaring 20 feet into the air on what looked like a bunny hop, we want to do it, too...
Maybe that's what the OA designers were trying to do: capture the movies, not the reality.
I think the "wu xia" system by TSR (IIRC) would be even more like that. What's its name, by the way?
EDIT: Did a little research and (re)discovered it, the name was Dragon Fist.  And it was already published by WotC. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 May 2014 12:22:14 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2014 : 23:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The problem with the K-T material was never the material itself - most of it was presented in a very loose, 1e fashion, similar to the OGB.
-Because, I know when I'm looking for information about...tea ceremonies in Wa, the first place I'd look would be the section about religious customs of Ancient Guge. Oy vey. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 May 2014 23:42:16 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2014 : 12:49:20
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| I would say it could definitely use some more attention. Enough of the Sword Coast and the Silver Marches. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2014 : 14:23:20
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| I'd certainly be interested in new KT material. Of course, at this point I'd need to like 5e (yes, D&D Next, but to hell with that, it's 5e) as a whole to be willing to spend any money on the D&D brand again (Pathfinder is D&D to me at this point in time). |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Does kara-tur deserve deeper attention?
