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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 20:06:05
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if Karsus didn't cast his Avatar Spell and lived as long as Larloch did (either becoming a Lich himself or through some other means) do you think Karsus would surpass current Larloch in terms of arcane knowledge and power?
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Edited by - Rikudou on 11 Jan 2015 20:07:00
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 21:22:26
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| Probably yes, and the Realms would be very different. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 21:32:37
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| Oh most certainly. Karsus was a magical savant - if he had survived Netheril's fall, he'd have probably been the first Magister instead of Azuth. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 23:27:17
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| I would argue that Ioulaum is more powerful than Larloch. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 23:41:36
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I'm not as sure... Karsus was way powerful, and he did figure out something no one else had. At the same time, though, I'm not sure that he would have stuck with any one area of study long enough to really master it.
Had Karsus never cast the Ultimate Folly spell, I think he might have possessed, on an individual basis, more raw power than Larloch, and he might have known some things that Larloch didn't. On the other hand, I think Larloch would have more overall power (the 60+ liches, tons of magical goodies, etc), and a deeper understanding of magic than Karsus. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jan 2015 05:30:03 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 23:54:24
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Well Karsus was obviously genius, but as the saying goes: "it a thin like between genius and crazy".
I think that Ioulaum and Karsus were at the same level of Power, and without the fall of netheril I personally think these two behemoths of magical power and lore would have continued to be the two top dogs. Larloch is perhaps the most opportunistic of the bunch and has used the fall to his apparent benefit. In terms of individual raw power I think Karsus would be more the more powerful of the two.
PS. I also think that Ioulaum would be more powerful that Larloch, had the fall not happened.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 11 Jan 2015 23:58:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 00:35:58
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The better saying is that the line which divides genius from insanity is measured only by success.
How this applies to Karsus depends on defining whether or not he was ultimately successful.
Larloch is a survivor. I believe he would not have been any less opportunistic and manipulative (and successful) if Netheril had never fallen. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 00:47:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The better saying is that the line which divides genius from insanity is measured only by success.
How this applies to Karsus depends on defining whether or not he was ultimately successful.
Larloch is a survivor. I believe he would not have been any less opportunistic and manipulative (and successful) if Netheril had never fallen.
I am not convinced that Netheril would have remained, had Karsus not cast that spell. At the least, I think the flying cities would have eventually scattered to the four corners of the Realms, where various misadventures and time would have whittled down their numbers. It's also likely that someone else would have eventually tried an equally boneheaded move, and still ended the nation. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 02:03:51
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| Karsus was a genius but he was too ADHD to compete with Larloch imo. Maybe lichdom would have changed that, or just made it worse. |
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 08:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The better saying is that the line which divides genius from insanity is measured only by success.
How this applies to Karsus depends on defining whether or not he was ultimately successful.
Larloch is a survivor. I believe he would not have been any less opportunistic and manipulative (and successful) if Netheril had never fallen.
Well in terms of far-reaching impact on the Realms, one must admit that Karsus did more than Ioulaum and Larloch ever achieved, yes it was terrible, but at the same time great, just like Voldemort, |
Edited by - Rikudou on 12 Jan 2015 08:31:21 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 09:11:09
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| Who's to say that Ioulaum or Larloch couldn't have done this as well? Difference is, maybe they saw it as too much of a risk so they never attempted it. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 09:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Who's to say that Ioulaum or Larloch couldn't have done this as well? Difference is, maybe they saw it as too much of a risk so they never attempted it.
I think that Ioulaum was too smart to try to pull off something like the Avatar spell. Could he have made and cast such a spell... I would like to think so, but the impresseion I get, is that Ioulaum vs Karsus, Ioulaum was the wiser.
In terms of who had the biggest impact, I would say that even thought Karsus changed a lot, Ioulaum was there to found the foundation upon which Karsus was brought up. Would Karsus have cast that spell if Ioulaum had not invented the Mythallar and protected and nursed the empire in the ways he had? Im not sure.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 13:02:05
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Tesla died alone in a hotel room.
Genius doesn't always = success. Rather then thinking about what he could do, Karsus never bothered to stop and consider whether he should. He was reckless - IMO he would have just done some other major hubris stunt that got him killed or worse.
Larloch, Aumvor, and Ioulaum were all slow, methodical planners, and in the long run, that counts for far more then just being 'smarter'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 23:00:18
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My campaign has Mystra (bear in mind that my homebrew holds Mystra as N in alignment and she didn't 'die' during the Avatar crisis) bringing Karsus back just after the Time of Troubles. In all respects he is Nethys from the Golarion pantheon. See the link below to see just how similar the two beings are:
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Nethys |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 23:22:17
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I think bringing Karsus back from the dead and reestablishing him as a deity would have been a lot more interesting than this whole thing with the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat.
Bet everyone 100 euro that they will eventually change the Cult of the Dragon to the point where they drop the whole dracolich thing and make it completely dedicated to worshiping Tiamat. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 23:28:19
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quote:
Eilserus
Karsus was a genius but he was too ADHD to compete with Larloch imo. Maybe lichdom would have changed that, or just made it worse.
Little known fact: the Netheril box set mentions in passing that Karsus, being slightly inconvenienced by the sporadic failure of his longevity magics, liched himself up so that he could continue his all-consuming research. As if it was just a little chore on his "To Do List" which he'd put off too long.
No further mention of liched Karsus is made in the lore, but it seems a fair bet that he didn't need to worry about dying of old age for a long while to come.
His finest apprentice/friend, Shadow (now known to us as Telamont) never liched himself. He was actually fearful of losing his life and, IMO, a bit of a coward.
Curiously, while the phaerimm life drain and magic drain effects were destabilizing the Weave and causing Netheril's magics to fail, they appeared to have little or no effect on Netheril's quasimagics and mythallars - I conclude that Netheril's flying enclaves were in no direct danger. (Although they could face the indirect danger of being denied access to the ground, along with access to the resources, provender, and supplies they needed to sustain themselves.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 23:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I think bringing Karsus back from the dead and reestablishing him as a deity would have been a lot more interesting than this whole thing with the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat.
Bet everyone 100 euro that they will eventually change the Cult of the Dragon to the point where they drop the whole dracolich thing and make it completely dedicated to worshiping Tiamat.
Well, it is canon, dating back to 2E, that Tiamat had plenty of Cult followers, and was looking to greatly expand her influence within the Cult -- to the point of manifesting as the Undying Queen, a five-headed dracolich. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 01:47:17
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quote:
Well, it is canon, dating back to 2E, that Tiamat had plenty of Cult followers, and was looking to greatly expand her influence within the Cult -- to the point of manifesting as the Undying Queen, a five-headed dracolich.
This is true and I rather like the idea of the Undying Queen and the fact that some Cult members worship her. I like the idea of factions within the Cult engaging in infighting among themselves. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 06:40:30
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Dracoliches are too 'cool' for the Cult to abandon them completely. If WotC went down that path, they'd probably think it'd be better to force all evil dragons to worship Tiamat, undead or not.
WotC are on a real faction trip at the moment though so I don't see the 'old guard' of the Cult being wiped out. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 13:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
if Karsus didn't cast his Avatar Spell and lived as long as Larloch did (either becoming a Lich himself or through some other means) do you think Karsus would surpass current Larloch in terms of arcane knowledge and power?
I think thats hard to say because we don't know much about Larloch before the fall (if anything at all). So it's hard to compare if we don't know where he started from.
Karsus was a genius no doubt, but as others allready said he was insane too. More so if you read the Netheril trilogy. Maybe a few more centuries would have fixed that, or maybe it would have gotten worse. Who knows?
Regarding Ioulaum I think he is still the most powerfull of the three. But thats just my imagination because we don't know next to nothing about what he did the last thousands of years. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 14:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I think bringing Karsus back from the dead and reestablishing him as a deity would have been a lot more interesting than this whole thing with the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat.
Bet everyone 100 euro that they will eventually change the Cult of the Dragon to the point where they drop the whole dracolich thing and make it completely dedicated to worshiping Tiamat.
I am actually getting kind of tired of Karsus, Netheril, and all the shadow-stuff (Shar) at this point.
I don't want them just bringing back the old foes (and heroes), but at the same time I don't want things entirely new (like 4e did). What I would like to see is a few new organizations/cultures that evolved from ones we knew, in a logical fashion.
For example, if it were my decision, I would have just made 'The Harpers' a mere shadow (and joke) of their former selves. A few pompous individuals thinking of it more as a 'private club' (adventurer's club). Then have the real inheritors of that title operate under the auspices of the Harpstars (but please rename that - I truly HATE it! It sounds like something from a cheesy 70-80's cartoon). Something along the lines of 'Selūnati', or some such (yeah... I know... nearly as bad). I picture them being more like moon Knight from Marvel comics (or Batman, if you prefer). Not overt at all; in fact, they would just be rumored to exist, and the current 'Harpers' (the jokes) would do everything in their power to say their was no such group. Of course, there would be certain 'real' Harpers placed amongst them - they would use the group both to collect information and sow misinformation.
Thats how I would have handled the 3e to 4e/5e transition. I want those old friends and foes back, but wearing new faces. Thats how the RW works. I love what they have done with the CotD - they are no longer about talking living dragons into becoming liches (I always disliked that). I would have never used them 1e/2e/3e, but I am really digging their new spin. Same group, different goals - that was 'new lore' done right, IMO.
In other words, changes that feel more organic. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jan 2015 14:18:50 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 18:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
if Karsus didn't cast his Avatar Spell and lived as long as Larloch did (either becoming a Lich himself or through some other means) do you think Karsus would surpass current Larloch in terms of arcane knowledge and power?
I think thats hard to say because we don't know much about Larloch before the fall (if anything at all). So it's hard to compare if we don't know where he started from.
Karsus was a genius no doubt, but as others allready said he was insane too. More so if you read the Netheril trilogy. Maybe a few more centuries would have fixed that, or maybe it would have gotten worse. Who knows?
Regarding Ioulaum I think he is still the most powerfull of the three. But thats just my imagination because we don't know next to nothing about what he did the last thousands of years.
Well he is an a Undead Elder Brain now who can permanently drain your wisdom. |
Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 18:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I think bringing Karsus back from the dead and reestablishing him as a deity would have been a lot more interesting than this whole thing with the Cult of the Dragon and Tiamat.
Bet everyone 100 euro that they will eventually change the Cult of the Dragon to the point where they drop the whole dracolich thing and make it completely dedicated to worshiping Tiamat.
I am actually getting kind of tired of Karsus, Netheril, and all the shadow-stuff (Shar) at this point.
I don't want them just bringing back the old foes (and heroes), but at the same time I don't want things entirely new (like 4e did). What I would like to see is a few new organizations/cultures that evolved from ones we knew, in a logical fashion.
For example, if it were my decision, I would have just made 'The Harpers' a mere shadow (and joke) of their former selves. A few pompous individuals thinking of it more as a 'private club' (adventurer's club). Then have the real inheritors of that title operate under the auspices of the Harpstars (but please rename that - I truly HATE it! It sounds like something from a cheesy 70-80's cartoon). Something along the lines of 'Selūnati', or some such (yeah... I know... nearly as bad). I picture them being more like moon Knight from Marvel comics (or Batman, if you prefer). Not overt at all; in fact, they would just be rumored to exist, and the current 'Harpers' (the jokes) would do everything in their power to say their was no such group. Of course, there would be certain 'real' Harpers placed amongst them - they would use the group both to collect information and sow misinformation.
Thats how I would have handled the 3e to 4e/5e transition. I want those old friends and foes back, but wearing new faces. Thats how the RW works. I love what they have done with the CotD - they are no longer about talking living dragons into becoming liches (I always disliked that). I would have never used them 1e/2e/3e, but I am really digging their new spin. Same group, different goals - that was 'new lore' done right, IMO.
In other words, changes that feel more organic.
I kind of like that idea. Perfect for Berdusk maybe? Aside from the few holdouts we've seen in novels, I'd always assumed most of the organization faded away as old age and monsters reduced the ranks etc. I'd also guess that old foes (Manshoon, for instance or even Mayor Bahb Thorstran, who happens to hate that meddling woman Tellara who's rumored to have ties with Harpers etc.) exterminated quite a few after Storm and El disappeared and were more or less depowered.
I'd be curious how Harpers would be treated in the years before the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy. The way some of those War Wizards acted I wouldn't be surprised if they ordered the nearest Purple Dragon to run a sword through the guy/gal for "ferreting out high secrets of the realm and treason of the very worst sort!" |
Edited by - Eilserus on 14 Jan 2015 18:39:00 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 10:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Well he is an a Undead Elder Brain now who can permanently drain your wisdom.
Yes but I highly doubt he just sits there for thousands of years waiting for people stumbleing by to drain their wisdom and doing nothing else
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 16:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Who's to say that Ioulaum or Larloch couldn't have done this as well? Difference is, maybe they saw it as too much of a risk so they never attempted it.
Well that's speculation, what is definite is that Karsus was the only one who achieved creating that 12th level spell, |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 19:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Who's to say that Ioulaum or Larloch couldn't have done this as well? Difference is, maybe they saw it as too much of a risk so they never attempted it.
Well that's speculation, what is definite is that Karsus was the only one who achieved creating that 12th level spell,
That's not even definite. All we know for certain is that Karsus was the only one to cast the spell and fail. There's nothing that says no one else came up with something similar, and either didn't cast it, or cast it somewhere else, leaving the rest of Faerūn none the wiser.
Perhaps Myrkul had used a lesser variant of the spell that raised him, Bhaal, and Bane to the brink of godhood -- way more than mortal, but not quite divine. |
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If Karsus Lived
