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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 10:01:05
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Greetings, I'm just wondering if the Demon Lords and Archdevils (except 4e Asmodeus) are equal in power to demigods/exarchs and perhaps lesser deities? I remember back in 1e that Mephistopheles is treated as a lesser deity in his layer of hell, does this still hold true in 4e?
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 10:23:10
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Well my own personal feelings are it is much more complicated than we can fathom.
A demon lord/archdevil is essential the owner of a specific plane, and on that plane he is all powerful. He is able to alter the terrain, call any ally to his side, reduce the abilities of interlopers and boost the abilities of himself and his allies.
Just like any deity can do on their own home plane.
Outside of that, a demon lord/archdevil is really rather powerful, but probably not as powerful as a lesser deity (although various versions of the game change the power levels as fans complained about how easy it was to smash archdevils).
To further complicate the issue, archdevils and demon lords can gain divine power in much the same way as a god. When they are worshipped they derive some form of power from it (otherwise why bother establishing cults).
The final answer should be that it varies. On his home plane an archdevil has all the abilities of a god and is strong enough to beat a 20th level character with ease.
Outside of its home plane the archdevil can go in person and would be stronger than a 20th level character (and maybe even some lesser gods) but death could be problematic (depending upon the version you are playing it could result in death or banishment for a long time). If the archdevil has worshippers then it could manifest an avatar, but most archdevils have so few worshippers that the avatar would barely be more powerful than a 9th level character (and in 3rd edition i think they were called Aspects).
I had an attempt at unravelling the mysteries of godhood in the Alternate Dimensions Fan Mag (in my sig - issue 6 i believe - The Science of Divinity) which you could use as a basis to try and determine how powerful an archdevil would be depending upon where he was and how much resources he wished to devote to whatever it is he is trying to do.
Of course there is probably a much simpler information in canon, i was just never satisfied with any of the answers given officially. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 13:04:51
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They are of the same 'tier', but not specifically 'demigods'.
4e coined the term 'exarchs', and I am glad D&D finally got an umbrella-term for the entire power-level. Thus, Demigods, archfiends, Chosen, arch-archons (High Archons?), Beast lords, etc, are all different things, but all of the same relative power.
Another way of putting it is to say they are all 'proto-gods' (they can have cults, and once the cult reaches sufficient power, they can become true deities).
I use 'god' much the same way D&D uses Exarch - its an umbrella-term to indicate anything higher then the Exarch tier (so deities, primordials, elder evils, etc). This is my own reasoning, and not anything official (AFAIK). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2015 13:05:22 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 18:49:49
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Early splatbooks in 3.5 edition established game rules concerning archfiends and celestial paragons, describing them as 'epic level challenges' rather than deities. It's not specifically stated whether they definitely are or not, but the *option* to make such powerful creatures rank 0 deities (i.e. demigods) was put forth.
I think the primary difference between them and demigods (at least in the Forgotten Realms) is that archfiends and celestial paragons do not need worshipers to maintain their powers. Indeed, celestial paragons actually strongly reject the notion of any of their servants worshiping them like one would a god. I believe that such creatures cannot directly grant divine spells either and instead make deals with one or more similarly aligned gods to allow them to act as proxies so that their followers have access to divine magic. They can however, grant some magic to mortals in the form of specific prestige class abilities and warlock pacts. Archfiends and celestial paragons can create aspects of themselves which function in a similar way to avatars but are generally much weaker than most avatars and also, they are not served by divine heralds as all deities are.
Lastly, don't quote me on this because I'm away from my books, but I believe that archfiends and celestial paragons are not immortal in the same way as demigods. A demigod is immortal because of its divine rank whereas a celestial paragon or archfiend is only immortal merely because it is an outsider. Both can be killed permanently if slain on their home plane so the point is moot but it's another difference.
In game terms, if you choose to give them a divine rank, then the only difference between them is that a demigod will have class levels while an archfiend or celestial paragon will only have outsider Hit Dice and some monstrous special abilities. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 21:20:49
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| As far as I remember, in 4e, most powerful archfiends are around level 33, exarch's range is from 22 - 32. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 22:34:07
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| One way to answer that question is to point out that a large number of Good-aligned Powers (deities, gods and goddesses, etc) find the very existence of certain archfiends utterly intolerable. They may send their angels and proxies and priests to many battlefields on many worlds and many planes, they may champion the cause of righteous smiting with eternal zeal. And yet they dare not bring their cause to the planar strongholds of their archfiend adversaries. The archfiends have been around a long, long time, they have managed to survive and prevail and even thrive in spite of the celestial legions arrayed against them (to say nothing of their own treacherous peers and underlings). Some have been known to flare the Blood War across Upper Planes, a few have even destroyed powerful deities. They even meddle in events on faraway worlds, spreading their own cults and faiths and followers. How can you argue that they are *not* equal to so-called true gods? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 23:02:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
One way to answer that question is to point out that a large number of Good-aligned Powers (deities, gods and goddesses, etc) find the very existence of certain archfiends utterly intolerable. They may send their angels and proxies and priests to many battlefields on many worlds and many planes, they may champion the cause of righteous smiting with eternal zeal. And yet they dare not bring their cause to the planar strongholds of their archfiend adversaries. The archfiends have been around a long, long time, they have managed to survive and prevail and even thrive in spite of the celestial legions arrayed against them (to say nothing of their own treacherous peers and underlings). Some have been known to flare the Blood War across Upper Planes, a few have even destroyed powerful deities. They even meddle in events on faraway worlds, spreading their own cults and faiths and followers. How can you argue that they are *not* equal to so-called true gods?
While I'm not disagreeing with you, I will point out a potential alternative reason for why certain archfiends continue to exist: they are, quite literally, "the devil you know."
There is also the issue of escalating a big war betwixt good and evil, if one side was to attack the other like that. |
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 03:38:57
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| Are Solars in the demigod/exarch power-tier? |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 05:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
Are Solars in the demigod/exarch power-tier?
The most powerful versions perhaps, or those that have a divine parent IE Galaxars. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 09:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
Are Solars in the demigod/exarch power-tier?
Solars are angels. They serve deities but are not deities themselves.
Malkizid managed to become an archdevil but he did not have that kind of power while he still served the Seldarine. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 12:36:18
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| They can be whatever the hell they want to be. Graz'zt was successfully countering Orcus and Demogorgon back when the duo were still lesser deities. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 12:51:27
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I would say that the higher-up celestials are on-par (same tier) as demigods, Chosen, archfiends, beastlords, etc.
Biblically we have Michael fighting (and beating) Lucifer, who later became THE arch-devil (not in D&D, but since a LOT of our fiend-lore is borrowed from the Old Testament, I feel its okay to use it as a source). That means an Archangel should be at least of the same power-level as a demigod/Exarch.
And now that I am thinking about it, a battle between Hercules and Michael would be epic.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2015 12:51:45 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 13:20:02
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In the Great Wheel cosmology these beings rule entire universes, I find it unbelievable that they'd have a power level of a demigod while there are greater gods like Cyric whose influence spans one continent on one Prime world.
If for example Akadi is a greater goddess, then using 3e divine ranks, Asmodeus should be DvR 20, Memphistopheles 18, able to challenge him. Same for other powers that don't care about worshippers, like Primus or Demogorgon. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 16:28:51
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| It could be a bit ambiguous whether they are counted as deities so a DM got the option to make of them what he need; a demigod, an storyline arch villain, perhaps even evil aligned players could kill one, and take his throne? |
Edited by - Starshade on 06 Jan 2015 16:30:35 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 18:21:34
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quote:
In the Great Wheel cosmology these beings rule entire universes, I find it unbelievable that they'd have a power level of a demigod while there are greater gods like Cyric whose influence spans one continent on one Prime world.
A deity's ability to manifest power in a given world is determined by the strength of their worship there. So, while Tyr may be a greater god on Toril, he could still have a minor cult on another world and only be able to act as a demigod there. This has never been stated flatly in canon/rules, but it is the way things have often worked when deities had influence across multiple worlds. It also makes sense when you consider that any greater god could just interlope onto another world and totally dominate a region without this limitation. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 18:23:07
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It also has to do with whether they are within their own domain, on their home plane, and whether they have followers on that plane, and how large a following it is.
Thus, the same two beings having a fight on different worlds/planes would have different results. Such is the nature of a multiverse. Even Mystra was nervous about upsetting Asmodeus on his home turf. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jan 2015 18:25:06 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It also has to do with whether they are within their own domain, on their home plane, and whether they have followers on that plane, and how large a following it is.
Thus, the same two beings having a fight on different worlds/planes would have different results. Such is the nature of a multiverse. Even Mystra was nervous about upsetting Asmodeus on his home turf.
Yep, when she showed up on Avernus looking for Elminster, the legions of hell started opening rifts to invade Toril if I recall. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:42:39
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Mephistopheles was overflowing with joy as if christmas had come early upon being able to absorb a third of a quasideity and immediately shouted that Asmodeus better starts trembling in his fortress.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Yep, when she showed up on Avernus looking for Elminster, the legions of hell started opening rifts to invade Toril if I recall.
It was her presence in hell that opened the rifts for the legions of hell (or at least those legions of hell that were not raining dead from the sky all over Avernus for trying to oppose her). At the end she oppened a gate directly into Asmodeus' throne room |
Edited by - Mirtek on 06 Jan 2015 19:44:38 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 19:51:57
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| Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 06:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again.
Which makes little to no sense unless you're willing to discard large amounts of lore from 2e and 3e.
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances, and not beholden to mortal worship (unless they also choose to embrace godhood in addition to their status as an archfiend).
We're unfortunately stuck it seems with lore from 4e that only made a lick of sense within the context of 4e's different planar structure. A lot of that seems to have been carried over unexplained and at odds with lore from the Great Wheel, despite the Great Wheel in modified form being back in place.
*I will note that this still doesn't make it even remotely plausible for Asmodeus to alter the nature of not just tieflings with diabolic descent, but also those that had no heritage to devils whatsoever.
The meta explanation here is that it really depends on what edition you're looking at, or even within a given edition which author or authors are writing a given sourcebook and what lore they're incorporating, retconning, or in some instances just not aware of. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 07 Jan 2015 06:06:12 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 07:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Asmodeus is now a full fledged deity, again.
Which makes little to no sense unless you're willing to discard large amounts of lore from 2e and 3e.
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances, and not beholden to mortal worship (unless they also choose to embrace godhood in addition to their status as an archfiend).
We're unfortunately stuck it seems with lore from 4e that only made a lick of sense within the context of 4e's different planar structure. A lot of that seems to have been carried over unexplained and at odds with lore from the Great Wheel, despite the Great Wheel in modified form being back in place.
*I will note that this still doesn't make it even remotely plausible for Asmodeus to alter the nature of not just tieflings with diabolic descent, but also those that had no heritage to devils whatsoever.
The meta explanation here is that it really depends on what edition you're looking at, or even within a given edition which author or authors are writing a given sourcebook and what lore they're incorporating, retconning, or in some instances just not aware of.
Don't forget that he was made into a god during 2nd edition. His true form is supposed to be this giant serpent that fell from the heavens and his body falling created the 9 Hells. He was supposedly still injured and that his blood flowing created the River Styx. The Satan look was supposed to be an avatar. I believe they had him as a greater god. Can't remember which supplement that was. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 07:50:41
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quote:
Don't forget that he was made into a god during 2nd edition. His true form is supposed to be this giant serpent that fell from the heavens and his body falling created the 9 Hells. He was supposedly still injured and that his blood flowing created the River Styx. The Satan look was supposed to be an avatar. I believe they had him as a greater god. Can't remember which supplement that was.
Not exactly. 2e's 'Guide to Hell' gave him the powers of a greater god, but not divine status. It also stands by itself on that particular take, with later sources uniformly not continuing with that story of Asmodeus's history except for the idea that he might have a greater form beyond that commonly observed and that he fell from an earlier status. That was later made explicit in FC2 that he was originally a servitor of primeval LN entities and during the earlier precursor to the Blood War his corruption to LE led to his and the first Baatezu being exiled into Baator (which was already there, lining up with history from 2e Planescape and those same elements further explored in 3e's FC1). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 08:59:26
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| Ahhhhhhhhh! I hate a lack of continuity. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 09:32:04
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| The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities? |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 10:01:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities?
The concept of Primordials is problematic, because they're from the core 4e world, and only make full sense within that cosmos's framework and assumptions. Bringing them into 4e FR was torturous when it came to reconciling previous planar lore, and IMO it's really no different if you try to include them or just that terminology in 5e (have we seen the term used in 5e? I haven't been paying attention that closely yet).
Really there's a patchwork hodgepodge of lore that's like a basket of cute kittens, except some of them are fighting with each other and if you reach in and pick out the ones that play best with each other, there's broken glass in the bottom that you'll invariably get a handful of, much to your regret. It's late so I'm making imaginative metaphors. :D |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 12:51:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rikudou
The Primordials held power equal (if not greater than) the greater gods (like Dendar and Kezef) but unlike the gods they do not need worshippers to maintain their power, the Demon Lords and Archdevils don't need worshippers to survive but they do have cults and worshippers from whom they can draw power from much like the gods, is it fair to say that these mightiest of fiends are a mixture of both Primordial and Estelar divine qualities?
Throw out there that primordials are also generally not "idea" based but usually some kind of "elemental" basis.... though said element might be darkness, light, negative energy, etc... The Demon Lords are different in that respect. So, while I wouldn't have a problem saying that an Archfey and a primordial are similar, I would be less inclined to do so with fiends and celestials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 13:16:55
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This is why I have reinterpreted the term 'god' to mean any being of higher then exarch (demigod) status.
A deity is a god. A primordial is a god. A primordial isn't a deity. That helps sweep a lot of the 4e contradictions under the rug (not nearly all, mind you, but a nice chunk of it). Thus, one can surmise that Asmodeus was always 'a god', depending upon your PoV. His status as a deity is questionable - that sort of connection is a double-edged sword, and one I don't think he'd be willing to risk (which is why I don't think he truly absorbed Azuth - I think he merely captured his essence for use... which would be a great way for them to fix some of the problems with the lore).
A being like Asmodeus - or the Lady of Pain even - is actually of 'Overgod' status within their own plane/realm. Unlike a deity, however, they don't have a lot of (direct) power outside of it (as Shemmy has already stated). Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him. Within their domain, an Overpower has ABSOLUTE control (and ironically, also happens to be the only place they are truly vulnerable, which is why I think a god's domain is actually its 'heart'/center). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 19:27:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is why I have reinterpreted the term 'god' to mean any being of higher then exarch (demigod) status.
A deity is a god. A primordial is a god. A primordial isn't a deity. That helps sweep a lot of the 4e contradictions under the rug (not nearly all, mind you, but a nice chunk of it). Thus, one can surmise that Asmodeus was always 'a god', depending upon your PoV. His status as a deity is questionable - that sort of connection is a double-edged sword, and one I don't think he'd be willing to risk (which is why I don't think he truly absorbed Azuth - I think he merely captured his essence for use... which would be a great way for them to fix some of the problems with the lore).
A being like Asmodeus - or the Lady of Pain even - is actually of 'Overgod' status within their own plane/realm. Unlike a deity, however, they don't have a lot of (direct) power outside of it (as Shemmy has already stated). Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him. Within their domain, an Overpower has ABSOLUTE control (and ironically, also happens to be the only place they are truly vulnerable, which is why I think a god's domain is actually its 'heart'/center).
If Asmodeus is all-powerful in Baator then why didn't he grab the chance to abduct Mystra and take her power when she initially went there to rescue Elminster, could he have done it or is Mystra beyond his league even inside his dominion? Or was Asmodeus simply afraid that taking her divinity would rally the gods against him? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 19:54:54
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Its all part of those 'wheels within wheels' we really don't see all of.
I think Mystra is way more powerful then any Greater God has the right to be (and we've had some pretty good explanations as to how that is possible around here). I think Asmodeus - who is a fallen archangel (I think that was in the 3e sources) - is on-par with her within his own realm. They are both 'gods', and also a bit more powerful then normal deities (in certain ways).
So, getting back to those 'layers' of intrigue on a planer scale - I think there is vast web of Machiavellian machinations that the planer politics is built on, and neither of those powers would want to 'rock the boat' on any grand scale. They hold their mighty positions through a convoluted system of checks-and-balances, proxies, allies, & agreements.
Mystra could theoretically topple Asmodeus in Hell... and then what? Its hers? She has to battle infinite armies to keep it? Or does she just walk away and some other power grabs the seat? Something worse, or will there just be an endless struggle within hell itself, thus freeing the demons from the Bloodwar to wreak havoc across the multiverse?
Asmodeus could theoretically beat Mystra (especially within his own realm), but then what? He becomes the new 'god of magic' for Realmspace? Would he really want that? Better to rule in hell then be burdened with responsibility of running a mortal religion and answering 'prayers' (just the thought of that would make him vomit, I would imagine). Does he just absorb her power and ignore her responsibilities? What of HER allies? Not just on Toril - she has friends all over the Multiverse (just read the entry for Wee Jas in On Hallowed Ground). What of the Overpower Ao? He may come looking for Asmodeus. The Lord of serpents may be able to beat him as well on his home turf, but I think that would exhaust him, and leave him open for attack from other arch-fiends. Even if it was just other gods, such a battle would leave Asmodeus weak... something he can ill-afford.
No... I think the two of them would avoid conflict. Asmodeus would HAVE TO have challenged Mystra on his home-turf to save face, which is why she avoided being noticed (or, perhaps the wily old devil knew she was there, but chose not to pick that fight himself). Better to pretend he didn't see her then to open that can of worms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2015 19:56:24 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 20:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Asmodeus has absolute control over the entirety of the 9 Hells. A single deity is a candle flame held before the sun by comparison within the bounds of Baator*. It's the same but slightly lesser situation with Lesvistus and Set, or Bel and Tiamat, Lolth and Pale Night, etc. Archfiends are relatively limited outside of their native plane, but within it they're absolutely stronger than a deity in many instances,
Not in 1e, definately not in 2e and not in 3.x and 4e either. From the little blurbs we have in the 5e MM it seems that it's not the case in 5e either (e.g. the short description of the nine hells pointing out how Asmodeus is the only creature there with the powers of a lesser deity. And yes that means whoever wrote that forgot about Tiamat).
Archfiends varied from all being lesser deities on their home planes (1e) to some being deities themselves and some just being stated monsters (in 2e, yes that made no sense in some cases, e.g. Grazzt) to being weaker much than deities (3.x) to beig slightly weaker than deities (4e).
In 2e some fluff might have come closest to your idea, but that was mostly presented as "maybes".
Was Set's domain ever so slightly shrinking or expanding? Or interchangeably both in a slow tug of war? Hard to tell talking about inches on a domain containing hundreds of miles.
If anything that tug of war is the best source showing an archfiend as equal to a deity (after the 1e articels on hell noted the problem as why a greater power like Set would not just dominate the lesser powers that are the archdevils and how Greenwood placed Bane on Acheron specifically to avoid this issue). But an upperhand for Levistus would have looked different
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Not exactly. 2e's 'Guide to Hell' gave him the powers of a greater god, but not divine status.
No, it flat out stated the he is a greater deity (p.48).
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
It also stands by itself on that particular take, with later sources uniformly not continuing with that story
Indeed
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Remember, Vecna is considered a god, and yet, 'The Dark Powers' of Ravenloft were able to trap him.
Vecna was a demigod at this point and even so the adventure mentioned several times how no other prisoners could rattle at the bars of his prisons with as much force as him and how the Dark Powers this time might haven bitten of more than they can chew by snatching a demigod |
Edited by - Mirtek on 07 Jan 2015 20:07:19 |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 20:59:04
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Yeah, I've read most of the 3.x books that deal with the fiends, (And I'm pretty sure that was the era Elminster in Hell was written) and I'm pretty sure there's nothing about Asmodeus being all powerful on his layer the way some deities are. He's still extremely powerful on his own, and one of the smartest SOBs in all the planes, so he's sitting pretty most of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So, getting back to those 'layers' of intrigue on a planer scale - I think there is vast web of Machiavellian machinations that the planer politics is built on, and neither of those powers would want to 'rock the boat' on any grand scale. They hold their mighty positions through a convoluted system of checks-and-balances, proxies, allies, & agreements.
That's why I don't think I'd ever had godhood be a goal of a character I play. Instead of being able to go mess up the bad guys on my own, I have to have my worshippers do it. Being a deity sounds boring. |
Edited by - Austin the Archmage on 07 Jan 2015 21:03:02 |
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Are Archdevils and Demon Lords Demigods?
