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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 00:39:55
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I see the distinction between archfiends vs gods as being arbitrary, and - as most things in D&D are - convenient contrivances which maintain symmetry.
Basically the gods have always been presented in sourcebooks about gods. They are assumed to be entities worthy of faith, PCs are expected to revere or worship (or at least have a healthy respect for) divine beings.
Archfiends, on the other hand, are traditionally presented in sourcebooks about monsters. They exist to make things challenging and unpleasant, PCs are expected to combat such powerful foes and their minions. Fellows like Asmodeus have always had stats not unlike gods proper, but we are expected to smite him and never even consider sustaining such dark things, never offer them our faith or our souls. (And yeah, fiends consume souls, reshaping them with fiendish intent. A horrifying fate no sane person would desire. And yet this isnt really very different from what most gods do with souls, just with different alignment, purpose, and form.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2015 : 00:54:28
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| I just remembered, in the third edition Deities and Demigods book, there's a mention that clerics who worship Yeenoghu are actually granted their spells by Erythnul, and Yeenoghu actually works for him. That's the instance of a certain arrangment between a deity and an archfiend that I can think of. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 14:50:57
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| I don't like the idea that devils and demons gain power through worship. For me it's something that should be for the gods only. The gods need worship, if they don't get it then they fade and perish. Devils and demons do not walk this tightrope, they stand to gain without risk. This doesn't sit well with me. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 15:40:44
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To take this conjecture a bit further, when some of the contradictory (with past lore) 4th edition material came out we learned that the elemental lords were really primordials, who aren't deities, and CAN'T grant spells. That goes against what came before.
I theorized that some primordials may have made deals with the 'upstart gods' (deities), and they shared any worship (power) sent their way. This makes some sense, actually, because in the Horde material - especially the novel Horselords - the Tuigan presumably worship a male aspect of Akadi, but it is very obviously Talos they are talking about. (she's even referred to as Teylas!) To me, this indicates one of those 'partnerships'.
So, if primordials can do it (which would explain-away quite a bit of the 4e inconsistency), then why not archfiends? In fact, we even have another VERY good precedent - Saints! These demi-powers supposedly have their own 'orders', but its really the 'boss god' that is delivering the mojo. Ilmater's religion is full of them! Chosen have a similar role - when you call upon them its really Mystra providing the power. Although, AFAIK, their are no formalized orders dedicated to Chosen (who are really just 'living Saints'), I know at least Elminster is listed amongst the demigods in Kara-Tur.
So if 'goodly' powers can use demi-powers in this role, then why can't evil powers do the same with archfiends? As Austin pointed out above, we already see Yeenoghu and Erythnul doing just that.
In reality, the 'powers' of the multiverse act like a giant pyramid scheme, and these underling-gods are really just the 'downlines' for the higher-ups. One could even theorize that 'the gods' are doing much the same thing - providing important roles needed to be filled by Overgods (so most powers don't like to 'micro-manage', and assign local supervisors, but some still prefer to act directly). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2015 15:43:37 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 16:57:17
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| Were any Archfiends ever mortal? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 18:39:41
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I suppose Lolth (Araushnee) might meet that criteria, but she wasn't a 'demon queen' for very long.
Plus, being one of the Seldarine, she was probably already a minor goddess to begin with. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2015 18:41:13 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:15:06
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Kostchtchie, tough there's different versions of him
Orcus remembers his mortal life, and death and larva transformation |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 22:31:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Were any Archfiends ever mortal?
Arch-yugoloths = no. They don't evolve from mortal souls. I'm only including actual yugoloths here as yugoloth lords.
Archdevils = unknown since we don't know the full history of many of them. Baalzebul seems to fit the bill since he's a fallen archon IIRC and archons derive from mortal souls. The Hag Countess (now dead) would also qualify here, but only if we assume that night hags do in fact derive from evolved hordelings (which are evolved larvae from mortal souls).
Abyssal Lords = Orcus yes as an example. Only tanar'ri qualify here since obyriths don't derive from mortal souls. But tanar'ri can also breed conventionally and do quite a lot, so it's hard to say for a given example unless we know from their history that they were once mortal. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 08:41:01
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quote:
Not in 1e, definately not in 2e and not in 3.x and 4e either. From the little blurbs we have in the 5e MM it seems that it's not the case in 5e either (e.g. the short description of the nine hells pointing out how Asmodeus is the only creature there with the powers of a lesser deity. And yes that means whoever wrote that forgot about Tiamat).
Isn't she out of the Hells now and under Bane's service? |
Edited by - Rikudou on 12 Jan 2015 08:42:17 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 06:57:36
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She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 19:53:29
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She's even mentioned as a lesser deity residing in Avernus in the dragon entry only a few pages after that sentence about Asmodeus being the only lesser deity in the hells.
I am too lazy to check right now, does anyone know (or care to check) if the sahuagin entry also mentions Sekolah as a lesser deity from the nine hells? |
Edited by - Mirtek on 13 Jan 2015 19:54:24 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 05:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue.
Did the Tyranny of Dragons adventure ever provide a reason as to how Tiamat ended up trapped in the Nine Hells? Only Asmodeus would have the power to snatch her from Bane's clutches, but even for him, that would be a bold move. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 17:29:20
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| No, they didn't literally put her back, they wrote it as if she never left. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 19:52:44
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Well, in Fire in the Blood they actually state that she just recently moved back, prefering Asmodeus' protection to Bane's.
Although once Asmodeus gets demoted to lesser deity (as hinted in the MM) it might be interesting if he suddenly needs protection from her |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 07:38:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
She was supposed to be, but 5th edition put her back in so their Tyranny of Dragons campaign would work in their new core setting.
The folks over at Kobold Publishing were told by WotC that she was still in the Hells, so they didn't argue.
Did the Tyranny of Dragons adventure ever provide a reason as to how Tiamat ended up trapped in the Nine Hells? Only Asmodeus would have the power to snatch her from Bane's clutches, but even for him, that would be a bold move.
Stumbled across a post by Erin Evans on this subject in regard to her cameo in Fire in the Blood.
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
Tiamat came up in story summit discussions, which was where Ed Greenwood mentioned that they'd kicked around the idea back in the day that whatever Tiamat consumed was completely destroyed. Which just kind of lit up my whole brain--what a fantastic reason to share territory with this dragon goddess!
I'll admit, at the time, I think we were all under the impression that she was placed in Avernus by 4E. I know I was. She's in Avernus in pretty much every other campaign setting, after all, and a lot of the 4E changes did have a streamlining effect. But she was in Banehold for some reason. So this is sort of a smoothing scene to account for that transition. Because Tiamat doesn't deserve to skulk around in Banehold like some kind of beaten pet! She's a Queen! She deserves her own little realm in the Nine Hells!
Still doesn't explain why the Cult of the Dragon suddenly need to free her from Avernus. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 16 Jan 2015 07:47:10 |
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Are Archdevils and Demon Lords Demigods?
