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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 00:48:07
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Hm, Gruumsh‘s savagery does indeed have the unfortunate consequence of limiting orc civilization the their traditional warlord/marauder/enemy role. On the other side of the coin, he does (did) command and embody the unswerving undivided allegiance of the entire race - plus some quantity of non-orc goblinoids - while human deities must each content themselves with a partial aspect of humanity‘s worship.
One “historical“ fact that post 2E-Realms has rather conveniently ignored is that orcs are legendary for waxing and waning ... just when you think orc populations are small and weak (and busy wasting their time attempting to engage in farming and commerce, bah!) they manage to swarm forth in mighty unstoppable hordes whose ironclad boots shake the floors of every other race in the world. Where is this mighty horde now? Have the Realms been so thoroughly mapped (and remapped) that there is no longer anywhere for ten million angry ferocious hungry orcs to hide? I maintain that mighty Gruumsh can lead the vanguard of an orc legion so numerous and so terrible that Obould‘s little farmstead would be swept into dust. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 01:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Corelleon is pretty damn beefy, I think he has the highest divine rank.
Shar is sort of even with Mystara, just does not share her power as widely or as flashy.
I think Kossuth might have some thumping power.
Waukeen is just a ferengi interloper god, and would hire whatever gods she could to help aid her fight.
Power depends on those worshipping the deity. Chauntea prior to 4e was the "mightiest" though she was not showing off that power for her own amusement.
Corellon is the elven overdeity. That means the vast majority of followers are elven, which in return are fewer in numbers than humans. Given by the fact that worshippers mean power it means that corellon may be powerfull, as most gods are, but compared to human deities, not so much.
Kossuth is a deity limited to one of the elements and in regions where the element of Fire is not predominant, his worship is next to nothing. Therefore his area of influence is geographicly limited.
The mightiest evil deity in levels of power is Shar, followed by Bane while the former is a few millenia older and had more time to amass power and has her shadow weave.
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
Cyric sure has fallen since his ascension. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 01:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Corelleon is pretty damn beefy, I think he has the highest divine rank.
Shar is sort of even with Mystara, just does not share her power as widely or as flashy.
I think Kossuth might have some thumping power.
Waukeen is just a ferengi interloper god, and would hire whatever gods she could to help aid her fight.
Power depends on those worshipping the deity. Chauntea prior to 4e was the "mightiest" though she was not showing off that power for her own amusement.
Corellon is the elven overdeity. That means the vast majority of followers are elven, which in return are fewer in numbers than humans. Given by the fact that worshippers mean power it means that corellon may be powerfull, as most gods are, but compared to human deities, not so much.
Kossuth is a deity limited to one of the elements and in regions where the element of Fire is not predominant, his worship is next to nothing. Therefore his area of influence is geographicly limited.
The mightiest evil deity in levels of power is Shar, followed by Bane while the former is a few millenia older and had more time to amass power and has her shadow weave.
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
Cyric sure has fallen since his ascension. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 02:19:37
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I loved the Kingdom of Many Arrows. If orcs are going to be presented as a major villainous race in the FR setting, I prefer that they not be so incompetent. Orcs always get presented as stupid, ugly, and incapable of creating any civilization (art, writing, engineering, etc.) Orcs lack powerful mages, skillful fighters, clever rogues, wise oracles, legendary paladins, and every other type of impressive figure that is present among Faerun's other sentient races. They aren't presented as any more intelligent than owlbears, for crying out loud!
Demons and drow are savage engines of chaos and destruction, but at least they are shown as being impressive in some ways. If their only threat comes from their excessive numbers, they are no more intimidating than a horde of insects. Orcs always get the short end of the stick, so I was glad to see them accomplish something in 4e. Hopefully 5e continues in that direction. We've seen more than enough of orcs serving as cannon fodder for humans, elves, and other races. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 02:24:43
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Many-Arrows vs Gruumshy‘s horde vs silly humans! Sounds win-win to me. At least, assuming my favourite side wins.
[Edit]
For the record, brute orcs do indeed have powerful, skilled, epic fighters. Not much else, but lotsa fighters. Yet that‘s neither here nor there nor OT ... how ‘bout them gods? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Aug 2013 02:27:41 |
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LordAo
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 03:39:31
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Orcs have plenty of skillful fighters, clever hunters, and some oracles that usually show up as the reason of why the orcs are suddenly a huge plot point.
Why would grumm want many arrows to fight his own folks ? Many Arrows himself is an exarch (demi or lesser god) in Grum's pantheon. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 03:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
He was a near-power in pre-3e sources, became a greater deity in 3e, and then eventually settled into being a Primordial in 4e. |
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Elkentar
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 07:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
While Mystra did block the weave, remember in 4e, when the weave was torn down again, folks found new ways to use magic.
Do you really think gods are going to attach themselves to mystras form of magic again, and have an unreliable system even if easier? Their worshipers already have a system of magic now that does not rely on mystra, I do not see them going back to the old ways of tapping her weave.
So I misspoke when I said Mystra is the most powerful deity, that particular title belongs to Ao. However all gods of toril have there portfolios ok'd via Ao and he has deemed Mystra his champion and guardian of magic since the the twins (Sylune and Shar) went to war and birthed her.
What I'm getting at is that Mystra dictates the methodology of magics use not just to mortals but to gods as well. And this had the notable exception of Shar's Shadow Weave witch I belive was Ao's first attempt at moderating Mystra's overall power and her Chosen the next.
So no, I don't think that the gods will have the broad choice of just ignoring her dictates on magic use. But I can see another mitigating buffer to her power being introduced, such as the Shadow Weave, or a greater number of Chosen, or both. Oh and lest I forget she will still need to restock her little mini pantheon of magical deities, such as Azuth.
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Edited by - Elkentar on 29 Aug 2013 07:25:57 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 14:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As a fan of Gruumsh, I‘d like to see a rollback event as well. Bring back the manly-bestial orcs of yore! For the record, I maintain that ol‘ Gruumshy is way cooler than insidious Bane. For the fiction and heroes to defeat Bane on a regular basis is kinda expected, for Bane sorta works through evil tyrannical men who really oughtta be slapped down before they cause too much badness and suffering. But for Gruumsh to be defeated one must only defeat nasty warmongering monsters who instead represent the positive aspects of humanity through a contrast of opposites. I admit that sinister humans are worse than rapaciously hateful monsters, but Realms fiction seems to prefer dark humans (and now also dark heroes) who can theoretically evoke sympathy and even a chance for redemption. I say keep things simple, subjugate Bane (and Shar and Talos and the rest of that bumbling crew) and put One Eye in charge, see some real progress!
i hope old Gruumsh comes back, see what weenies the many arrows orcs arc and slaps the current Obould so hard the whole line is remove from history and we get a silver marches battle royale
I think you may get your wish, that is if I understood the hints in the Companions and what Bob has been saying.  |
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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 18:20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Progress? I argue that Gruumsh has the foresight to effect things in a greater picture in terms that his followers can comprehend it and speed it along. True orcs can be intelligent but given their social status in the realms and the stigmata attached to it they can never even hope to achieve what other races may achieve without major shifts in either social acceptance (Many-Arrow Kingdom being the exception) or conflict that pits them against other races.
Let´s not forget that Gruumsh also embodies the savage aspects of the orcs and that in the end hinders progression beyond specific limits.
The "human" gods on the other hand can achieve that, granted they have such ambition and abilities, and thus are more likely to shape events in ways that truely bring progress.
Hey Bane, 'sup? I see you've done well in this era.
Do you think these fleshbags have any idea about the coming war?
Many of them don't seem to have picked up on the foreshadowing elements.
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I think you may get your wish, that is if I understood the hints in the Companions and what Bob has been saying.
Aha, wait! Arcanus sees it. The potential for so much violence and blood, it makes me giddy!
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Edited by - Bhaal on 29 Aug 2013 18:23:20 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
He was a near-power in pre-3e sources, became a greater deity in 3e, and then eventually settled into being a Primordial in 4e.
Actually he was clearly listed as greater deity in 2e already |
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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 20:51:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Is Kossuth even a Deity? I was under the impression he was an elemental Primordial of godlike power.
Not an easy question to answer. Mortals can worship many beings as deities, and "game rules" at various points might not make adequate or complete distinctions on what truly "counts" as a deity. And it may not really be a noticeable difference for mortals, at least on a functional level.
From the very beginning, Kossuth was described as an "Elemental Lord" and that's what he is. He does not belong to the pantheon of Gods, which We call the Estelar. He and other elemental lords do not belong to the class of demons or devils, either, though both of those types of beings can often grant their worshipers divine power for spells.
Consider your mortal world of Earth, or Terra-Sol. There, you have Titans and Gods in your Greek myths, and also Jotnar (Giants, of a sort) and Aesir-Vanir (allied gods) in Norse myths, and it is much the same for Primordials and Estelar in the Realms. The Elemental Lords can be worshiped as gods, but are not of the Estelar.
quote:
Cyric sure has fallen since his ascension.
And he has further to fall, even still. 
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 23:34:08
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| Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2013 : 23:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples.
Kossuth (& "pals") were flat out stated to be full fledged greater powers in Faiths&Avatars and in Planescape sources like On Hallowed Grounds and The Inner Planes |
Edited by - Mirtek on 29 Aug 2013 23:43:35 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 00:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Kossuth is listed as one of the four Elemental Lords in 2E FRA - granting the priests od his cult up to 5th level spells and a couple of not-very-spectacular special power over elemental fire. In 2E terms, I would rank Kossuth as a demipower, and perhaps (like various Beast Lord demipowers such as Lurue) further limit Kossuth to only being able to effectively exert such power in a limited region. Kossuth was popular with (non-Water) Elemental Mages and with Red Wizards, but I‘d think he‘d otherwise have very few, if any, human disciples.
Kossuth (& "pals") were flat out stated to be full fledged greater powers in Faiths&Avatars and in Planescape sources like On Hallowed Grounds and The Inner Planes
Rulebooks and supplements can have errors, of course, and are merely an estimation or reflection of "power" that a given being has.
You're correct that Faiths and Avatars lists Kossuth as a greater power. But Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
So which is "correct"? At the time, there wasn't much of a distinction between "god" and "elemental lord" (or primordial).
Also, while Planescape and On Hallowed Ground can be viewed as canon lore for the Realms, they are technically "core" add-ons and this isn't something people must take to be canon, necessarily. In 3E, Kossuth was again listed as a Greater Deity - actually using the word deity.
Given that 4E lore -is- definitely considered canon and isn't going away, it's probably best to think about the Primordials (aka Elemental Lords) as -nearly- equivalent in "power" to gods... but that they're actually entirely separate from, and distinct from gods.
And interestingly, in 4E, none of the Elemental Lords that remained on Faerun are given a power level at all relative to the gods.
So, boiling it all down: Kossuth is not actually a deity or god, but an Elemental Lord that is -almost- equivalent to a greater deity. Since he was a "lesser power" in 2E, it's possibly the case that his power waxes and wanes over time (just as fire tends to grow or shrink depending on fuel).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 00:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TheriseBut Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that's what was stated there. The booklet only really gave good information on a few powers and lumped a lot of "obscure" powers together under the "not really known" category and the lot of them were later detailed in Faiths&Avatars and Powers&Pantheons. The category into which they put Kossuth there included powers of all ranks from demi to greater, that they just didn't really detail yet in this book
Edit: Nevermind, I think I confused it with the booklets from the 2e FRCS boxed set
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Also, while Planescape and On Hallowed Ground can be viewed as canon lore for the Realms, they are technically "core" add-ons and this isn't something people must take to be canon, necessarily.
Actually under 2e's mutliverse approach they were all canon to each other. That's why effects in one setting spilled over if that area was touched by annother setting. E.g. the slaying of Orcus by Kiaranshalee or the fiends temporarily losing their ability to teleport, etc. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Aug 2013 00:33:43 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 01:13:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
But Ayrik is also correct when saying that Forgotten Realms Adventures clearly states that they are lesser powers.
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that's what was stated there.
Directly from Forgotten Realms Adventures, page 36:
quote:
Elemental Cults
Grumbar, Boss of Earth
Kossuth, Tyrant Among Fire
Akadi, Queen of Air
Istishia, Water Lord
All are lesser powers of the various elemental
planes.
Cults tend to vary greatly from one
area to another, as different individuals
seek to tie into the same natural or supernatural
power. They also tend to be much
weaker than the mainline clerics.
When I say that something is printed clearly, I never lie about something I reference as a source.
quote:
Actually under 2e's mutliverse approach they were all canon to each other. That's why effects in one setting spilled over if that area was touched by annother setting. E.g. the slaying of Orcus by Kiaranshalee or the fiends temporarily losing their ability to teleport, etc.
While it is fully Realms 2E compatible, and many people treat it as canon, Planescape is an optional setting. It has also not been updated since, and some things in 4E tend to contradict compatibility
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 05:42:08
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I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 16:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms.
The primordials do reek of the Titans from Ancient Greek mythology. And I tend to prefer active evils like Manshoon, who has plots spinning around like curveballs. Creatures that spend all their time sleeping can only scare me so much. But like you said, 5e lore will trump all else. So the primordials probably all get sent packing to Abeir. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:25:57
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| And let us hope Asmodeus loses his divine powers, that fiend does not belong as a deity in the realms! |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
That said, the approach to Realms canon has always been that newer lore trumps older lore. So in 4E, Kossuth is not a deity.
I'm really hoping that when the 5E Realms comes out, they keep it simply and adhere to pre-4E lore, when it comes to the powers of the Realms.
I'm not so much upset with the shoe-horning in of the idea of primordial and archfey as compared to deities. My main thing with the 5e was what they did with it (essentially destroying the old setting). I like the fact that they went out and specified that Kossuth is not a deity and that in ways it "works" differently. It explains why Kossuth didn't force worshippers to worship it like gods were trying to do. In fact, I'd like to see some discussion on some of the various nature deities and how they differ from Archfey and/or primordials. For instance, as an example, Talos/Bhaelros/Kozah.... lord of Storms and Lightning could easily have also been a primordial... however, he also fits as a god... or an Archfey... and is there a chance that "he" was a triumvirate deity who was all of these (that is before the whole Gruumsh posing as him thing.... I don't care what newer lore says, Gruumsh was posing as him). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:57:15
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| an addendum to the above.... we've long seen these arguments of powerful fey (archfey), powerful demons (demon lords), powerful devils (such as Gargauth), powerful beings from the Far Realm, the newer idea of primordials and the powers of "darkness/shadows". I think it would be a very interesting delving for WotC to delve into these and build some "cornerstones" of the types of .... best word I can think of are "ultra powers"... that work outside of the player's controls and what their goals are as a semi-cohesive unit. They might want to sit down and make a listing of the beings of the various worlds and start classifying them and just see where it leads (i.e. don't go into it with a defined end goal). They might want to just start for instance with a popular world where people are highly interested in the deities (like Greyhawk or the realms), and where there's already people who have made lists of the "deities" of the world out there, and then start improving upon said lists. Given that they're considering bringing back all deities (possibly), this kind of work might even help them spin up some really good ideas... for instance, what if Talos / Bhaelros / and Kozah were all different beings who Talos had conquered and now all have come back. They may be spinning up their worshippers to slay the heretics of the church. This could mean that deities like Shar who grew heavily in power through conquering other deities may find themselves in a lot of trouble as their churches split into different heresies. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 17:59:33
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I really didn't mind the new Primordial distinction. What I didn't like was the whole weird "guess what, there's another PLANET tied to Toril" and there was this whole war between gods and elemental lords. Just a sloppy, quick overlay without much creativity.
Add to that, things like mashing Gruumsh together with Talos... or Hanali Celanil with Sune, and just... no. Again, sloppy and easy, with little respect for older lore. I truly hope they "re-clarify" things such that Gruumsh just pretended for a while to be Talos (because he was missing or trapped for some reason), and that Sune also "took over" for her close ally Hanali in her absence.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12092 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I really didn't mind the new Primordial distinction. What I didn't like was the whole weird "guess what, there's another PLANET tied to Toril" and there was this whole war between gods and elemental lords. Just a sloppy, quick overlay without much creativity.
Add to that, things like mashing Gruumsh together with Talos... or Hanali Celanil with Sune, and just... no. Again, sloppy and easy, with little respect for older lore. I truly hope they "re-clarify" things such that Gruumsh just pretended for a while to be Talos (because he was missing or trapped for some reason), and that Sune also "took over" for her close ally Hanali in her absence.
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 18:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 30 Aug 2013 18:28:50 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 19:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
I agree. I like having the wide-range of deities. Sune and Hanali were both goddesses of love, but they were for their respective races, and their ideologies differed slightly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:23:59
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Ah, I was trying to provide a helpful answer about Kossuth, not draw out a disagreement.
Note that my source (quoted verbatim by Therise) is early 2E Realms. In fact, the very first 2E Realms canon published after the 1E-to-2E Avatar novels. Other sources appeared much, much later in 2E lore, as the Realms grew in depth. I would assume that more recent lore would apply in more recent editions.
Also, I would assume that Realmslore should take precedence over non-Realmslore when dealing with the Realms, A guy like Kossuth might be a bigger bigshot across the cosmos, but he‘s still generally a little morsel within the Realms ... perhaps elemental magic just never really became mainstream under Myystra‘s Weave, perhaps poor Kossuth just doesn‘t have a decent population of faithful in the Realms, perhaps Faerûnian deities oppose “outside“ powers from playing in their sandbox. The Realms already has a slightly unique cosmology when one considers the Fugue Plane, so perhaps the Elemental inner planes aren‘t as attuned to the Realms as they are to other worlds where old Kossuth can really burn things up.
This isn‘t a lot different from how, say, Tyr or Mielikki or Loviatar in the Realms aren‘t quite the same entities (at least in terms of power and game stats) as their counterpart aspects in other pantheons, planes, and worlds. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Aug 2013 23:25:32 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This isn‘t a lot different from how, say, Tyr or Mielikki or Loviatar in the Realms aren‘t quite the same entities (at least in terms of power and game stats) as their counterpart aspects in other pantheons, planes, and worlds.
Actually in that cases these are the exact same entities. On Hallowed Grounds explained why they branched out into the Realms.
But the Tyr of the Realms is the same, one and only, Tyr worshipped on other worlds. In his divine realm he just as a "screen" monitoring the realms along the other "screens" watching his other worlds.
At least that was 2e canon until 3e and especially 4e shattered that |
Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Aug 2013 23:32:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2013 : 23:38:24
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| Tyr‘s status in the history of out own world varied considerably across different times and regions and peoples ... sometimes he was a “lesser“ god, sometimes greater, sometimes even considered vastly superior to the nominal leader of his pantheon, Odin. Why isn‘t it possible for similar logic to apply to multi-world gods of the Realms? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:26:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Tyr‘s status in the history of out own world varied considerably
However for D&D it only matters which status they picked for him
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why isn‘t it possible for similar logic to apply to multi-world gods of the Realms?
Mutlispheric powers affected different spheres at different power levels in 2e.
However if you followed the divine connection back to it's source you would, from all spheres, come to the same divine realm with the same deity sitting there (although some deities divided their time between different divine realms).
Why a deity could affect different spheres on a power level above/below their true divine status was never fully revealed.
Maybe the divine connection to a particular sphere was bad, thus the deity needed to send twice as much power through from her side than what arrived at the recipient side. Thus a lesser power seemed like a demipower when viewed from that sphere, since half the power she send was lost into the ether
Or maybe the local overpower granted the lesser deity a higher status in his sphere and doubled the amount of power she send toward it. Thus the lesser deity looked like in intermediate deity due to this local power boost.
However when you really reached the deity in her realm on the planes, you would find her at her true power level, which might not match what you expect solely judging her from your own sphere's point of view |
Edited by - Mirtek on 31 Aug 2013 00:28:21 |
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The most powerful deity
