| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 00:39:10
|
| Spelljammer lore, again 2E and now outdated (though not really contradicted, albeit obsolete in 4E), provided an easy answer for the issue of region-variable power. A deity‘s power is directly related the the local faith. All it takes is a single believer, although realistically it requires populations of believers along with all their attendant temples and priests and history. |
[/Ayrik] |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 02:39:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
The concept of the primordials really didn't bother me all that much. The promotion, demotion, and general flux of divine power in most fantasy settings always tends to open up new and intriguing possibilities for how the concentration of that power could expressed through a particular medium. The primordials are just another example of that general fantastical principle.
As I see it, no deity's divine power is truly absolute. Especially in the Realms. If the Time of Troubles taught us nothing else, it's that the gods can easily have their divine power stripped from them if Ao so desires. And the "rotating door" policy that seems so integral to the Realms pantheon apparently accommodates the notion of differing deities and near-powers with all kinds of different ways in which they siphon their power from worshippers. Primordials are just the latest example of this decades-long aspect of the setting as a whole. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:00:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't like the idea of primordials, and prefer that everything previously listed as a deity remains a deity...
The concept of the primordials really didn't bother me all that much. The promotion, demotion, and general flux of divine power in most fantasy settings always tends to open up new and intriguing possibilities for how the concentration of that power could expressed through a particular medium. The primordials are just another example of that general fantastical principle.
As I see it, no deity's divine power is truly absolute. Especially in the Realms. If the Time of Troubles taught us nothing else, it's that the gods can easily have their divine power stripped from them if Ao so desires. And the "rotating door" policy that seems so integral to the Realms pantheon apparently accommodates the notion of differing deities and near-powers with all kinds of different ways in which they siphon their power from worshippers. Primordials are just the latest example of this decades-long aspect of the setting as a whole.
What I don't like about it is the fact that for years, all the powers of the Realms were deities. And then, suddenly, we've got a new class of power that is kinda sorta the same but different. And some of those that we were told were deities were now something else.
I don't mind seeing something like Mask rising and falling in power, or new deities ascending, or old ones falling... I object to the sudden inclusion of something that's the same thing, only different, and to long-standing deities suddenly being this other thing.
I'd've had less issue with the primordials if they'd been called something else (I hate that name for a class of entity), and if they had been spun differently. If they had been more like the Valheru in the Riftwar Saga, for example: a group of very powerful individuals who, when united behind a common cause, were numerous enough and strong enough to take on the gods. Individually, they were somewhere between the most powerful mortals and demigods, but united, they were a nigh-unstoppable force.
That's a backstory I would have loved to have seen with a Realms spin. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:17:01
|
I suppose more focus could have be placed on the title of "Elemental Lords," for most of the more "elemental" Primordials... instead of just labelling them all Primordials as such. [Can't recall whether the 4e FRCG directly makes this distinction, though I'm thinking it did.]
The term "Elemental Lords" has play in both core- and Realms- based lore, so it might have been more positively received had it more emphasis over the usage of the term "Primordials." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2013 : 04:19:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Agreed there. The one problem I see is where there are certain gods of physical heavenly bodies (moon, sun, etc..). The moon they could maybe work out something with the ice moon Zotha thing, or the tears of Selune being formed whenever she gave a portion of herself to other moon gods... They could also stress more on Selune's power as the goddess of all spacial anomalies (meteors, stars, etc...).
The sun becomes harder, but it could be separated into the lord of Dawn, lord of the High Sun, lord of Dusk, lord or light, and maybe some other things. However, things like lord of Tyranny... there can be multiples.
Possibly, and I wouldn't mind that too much. But personally, I always liked the idea of multiple deities representing the same thing, particularly if they were from different cultures/pantheons. Moving to a single "world meta-pantheon", and having similar gods just be variant avatars of a meta-pantheon deity was perhaps good for simplification. But I think it also mucked about with "truth of the divine" too much, and cemented too much of what should be faith as just concrete fact.
I'd have much preferred uncertainty, mystery and questions of faith when it came to things like "there's a human god of X and a dwarf (or elf) god of X" in the Realms. Even when two cultures bumped into each other and blended, it didn't need to be the case that those two cultures' deities would have to fight for dominance.
Now, it seems that every War deity on the planet is somehow an avatar of Tempus. And every deity of Love is somehow an avatar of Sune. I really don't like that. At all. On shows like Xena and Hercules, I thought it was immense fun to have two war deities battle it out briefly, neither one winning necessarily.
That's exactly what I was getting at. EXCEPT in the case of heavenly bodies, there's no reason you can't have multiple deities of storms & lightning, war, disease, fire, love, poetry, art, music, knowledge, magic, darkness, theft, trickery, intrigue and you could possibly have doubles of such even in the same pantheon..... its only when its the god of THE sun or THE moon that you run into problems. If you instead work around hyperbola for those heavenly bodies (such as the gods of dawn, the sun's fire, light, etc....) then you have a little more working room, because you could have multiple gods of light and all might be considered "an aspect of the sun". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 07:16:57
|
| I agree wholeheartedly with Wooly‘s rejection of 4E-styled Primordials as a category. To portray them as, say, another pantheon or as some sort of arch-celestial or arch-fiends or even strange “xeno-Powers“ from a Far Realm sorta place would seem acceptable. I‘m not into 4E bashing, but this particular set of Realms retcons really makes me shake my head. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2013 : 09:22:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I agree wholeheartedly with Wooly‘s rejection of 4E-styled Primordials as a category. To portray them as, say, another pantheon or as some sort of arch-celestial or arch-fiends or even strange “xeno-Powers“ from a Far Realm sorta place would seem acceptable. I‘m not into 4E bashing, but this particular set of Realms retcons really makes me shake my head.
my problem with that hypothesis is that it assumes that all powers that can hope to challenge the gods are formative only in the outer planes or the far realm. Why can't the inner/elemental planes form beings that can challenge the gods without having some sort of internal moral compass driven by the plane they're from. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:42:00
|
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:48:43
|
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
|
|
|
Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 01:50:21
|
Thier was actually hints from previous editions that the Elemental Lords weren't normal Gods, so when 4e first came out I knew before the FRCG came out that the Elemental Lords would be Primordials.
This explained the weird fact that the Elemental Lords were not effected by the ToTs, unlike every other God, it explains why they could be Greater Powers without huge amounts of followers (Kossuth does have massive amounts of Followers, but he doesn't need them which makes his actions curious and intiguing), and so on. It also explains why thier nature seems so much more alien compared to other Gods.
Now we know why they seem to follow thier own rules, thier Primordials not Estelars.
My prediction. Deity hood will be seperated from type, so Gods will end up catogorized by memebership on the tablets the powers that grants. So the Gods will end up as a group of Primordials, Estelar, Archfey, Primal Spirits, Manifestations and a few Fiends plus who knows what else, just who ever AO has granted godhood to via the tablets of faith. These beings will all be granted divinity.
And certain beings might belong to multiple races of God. So Lurue would be a God, but not an Estelar, she's be a an archfey, same with Deep Sashless, where Nobion would be a God again, but still be a Primal Spirit. Torm would be an Estelar, Kossuth a Primordial, Gargauth a devil, as would Asmodeaus, Sune a Estelar, but all would count as Gods against as well.
That is my prediction. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The most powerful deity
