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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 04:21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Iyachtu Xvim is being brought back to live because of the Sundering and boy won't he be pleased with his daddy ;p
As for most powerful deity pre 4e that clearly would be Mystra, followed by Shar and Chanutea.
Post 4e after its was revealed the cirtain Gods were aspects of others I'd say Gruumsh/Talos were the most powerful, after all how do you be being not just one Greater Diety, but two at once!
Gruumsh now has many, although not all of the of Talos' followers, outsider servants, and other resources in addition to the worship of vast hordes of orcs and orc hybreds, has abunch of Exarch/Demigods under his command and so on.
Honable Mention goes to Chantea who absorbed Yollada? Sune who absorbed Halani Celani, Selune who absorbed the Elven Moon Goddess.
I'd also
Good point! I completely overlooked Gruumsh, but you're right. He must have a ton of followers. While I'm not a terribly big fan of orcs, I love that he has increased in power. I also love that the Kingdom of Many Arrows is still a force to be reckoned with.
It never sat well with me that orcs are considered ok to slaughter en masse, with nary a 2nd thought. It's one thing to think that way about fiends, who are actually spawned from planes made of pure evil, or the souls of mortals who were evil in life.
But any other race should be depicted with a bit more nuance. I'm fine with orcs being mostly evil, but there should be some orcs with a moral center. Especially considering that good drow have been around since the beginning, and we also have many good tieflings.
Hopefully 5e will continue in a positive direction with orcs. NOT making them good, or even neutral, but making them more than merely cannon fodder for adventurers to show off against. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 04:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Iyachtu Xvim is being brought back to live because of the Sundering and boy won't he be pleased with his daddy ;p
It's the other way around. Bane is being brought back to life, and will be rather tweaked off at Junior for taking his name.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 08:15:14
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I would like to nominate Finder...
He is the only god who has been to sigil and lived to tell about it :P |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 09:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Oddly didn't Sharess have the most powerful Avatar in 2e?
Well, given 2e's way of handling deities and avatars it's not surprising that demipowers would manifest the most powerfull avatars.
After all, they have the most to lose should their avatar be destroyed. A greater power losing one of her avatars still has the others and can replace the lost one in a single day.
A demipower losing her only avatar would be without an avatar for a full year.
Also a greater power is less likely to lose an avatar, since who would be stupid enough to attack the avatar of a greater power? There are certainly more entities willing to anger a demipower than willing to anger a greater power.
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Toril would not disappear if Chauntea died.
Do we really know that? Absolutely possible that Toril would break apart if Chauntea were to die. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Aug 2013 09:22:13 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 14:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Oddly didn't Sharess have the most powerful Avatar in 2e?
In terms of stats, I think in 2e Mystra has the most powerful avatar. Tiamat is also quite powerful, casting two spells AND attacking in human form, and having five heads choosing between biting breathing or casting a spell, meaning that she can cast up to five simutaneous spells in one round.
As for Sharess, her AC is very good, but supplanted by many greater deities' ACs. I haven't seen the "limited wish" ability (is this an interpretation of the illusion that fulfills the target's desires? It's not very clear if she can appear to be things, I think she can only appear to be someone else), but the nine lives power is truly strong, and maybe you should rule that the avatar is not destroyed, but maybe it could take some time to come back (effectively, it would only be harder to destroy her definitively; but if the avatar return is immediate, you are actually multiplying her HP by nine, and this would make her truly powerful). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 26 Aug 2013 16:02:40 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 14:49:18
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Remember that Mystra can deny any creature (even gods) access to the Weave.
As for the shapechange powers of Sharess, it is not clear if they are limited to natural felines, but it seems to be the case. If so, those forms have its limits. This power does not specify forms of fantastic or partially feline cretures, like sphinxes or griffons, but maybe you can expand it to fantastic all-feline or mostly-feline creatures like elven cats and tressyms, who are among her favored creatures in "other manifestations", and to other cats like crag cats, winged (great) cats, and others. Maybe you should restrict evil felines, like cantobeles and displacer beasts, since she is good (but have neutral and CN followers). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 15:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Toril would not disappear if Chauntea died.
Do we really know that? Absolutely possible that Toril would break apart if Chauntea were to die.
Well, if we look at it as Toril being 'the body' of Chauntea, then if she dies, the body is dead, but it still exists. Thus, Toril becomes a 'dead world'.
Not sure what that would mean game-mechanics wise - some sort of slow decline into oblivion, I would imagine. Forests disappearing, lush grasslands turning to deserts, etc. This then effects the food chain, and life begins to die out everywhere... it might take centuries before the whole planet is a barren husk.
Hmmmm... I think I just figured-out what happened to Athas. A world with no gods has no earth-goddess.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2013 15:14:17 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 15:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Iyachtu Xvim is being brought back to live because of the Sundering and boy won't he be pleased with his daddy ;p
It's the other way around. Bane is being brought back to life, and will be rather tweaked off at Junior for taking his name.
Took his name, crashed his classic ferrari and torched his house you mean!
It would be interesting to see how a rumble with these two turns out. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Aug 2013 16:08:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Took his name, crashed his classic ferrari and torched his house you mean!
"I told you NO PARTIES while I was away!"
"Is that ectoplasm on my Zakharan rug? That'll never come out!"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2013 19:18:00 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Took his name, crashed his classic ferrari and torched his house you mean!
"I told you NO PARTIES while I was away!"
"Is that ectoplasm on my Zakharan rug? That'll never come out!"
Are ectoplasmic stains worse than chocolate and sprinkle covered hamster stains?
(yes that was totally thrown in to see if a certain moderator is in anyway shape or form patrolling these halls ) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Aug 2013 19:20:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:24:00
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| Giant Space Hamster droppings are the worst... not only do they smell and leave stains, but they are heavier then Nibbler poo (that one is for fans of Futurama). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 20:20:53
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Blood stains are the worst, really. Especially when they've dried and set in a nice white linen shirt.
They were the one down-side of my line of work. *sigh* Nostalgia. 
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 21:07:54
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Well that escalated quickly.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 02:25:52
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Ao! Okay, either Mystra or Chauntea.
The heads of racial pantheons (Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, Lolth, etc) have a certain level of power that is "greater" than other deities, because they have to be in order to be the patron (or matron) of that race's pantheons. The human pantheon is more complicated, because it has the broadest range of deities, and different areas of Faerun follow different gods--or have gods they are more likely to follow, such as Chauntea in the Moonshaes.
I think deities should be allowed to rise in power, but there should be a limit. They reach the ceiling at some point. That way, two deities can be on par with each other, but once you reach the top, you can't go any higher. Therefore, two greater deities should be just as great. If power is based on the number of followers that deity has, there should still be a limit, not on the amount of followers (Chauntea can have all of the Moonshaes if she wants), but on the amount of power they have. Influence and power are two different things, or should be, in the case of deities.
Personally, I like when deities are personified in "human" form, but I also like the mystery that should come with them. I'm fine with rays of the sun being a sign from Lathander, or a unicorn a messenger of Mielikki. I do agree that some of the mystery has been taken out of them recently. I like a combination of them appearing in "humanoid" form, and using symbols. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 03:03:33
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While Mystra did block the weave, remember in 4e, when the weave was torn down again, folks found new ways to use magic.
Do you really think gods are going to attach themselves to mystras form of magic again, and have an unreliable system even if easier? Their worshipers already have a system of magic now that does not rely on mystra, I do not see them going back to the old ways of tapping her weave. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 03:12:04
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| Ao may not leave them a choice in the matter. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 03:26:15
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| Honestly, I think Ao will create a method that will make Mystra not such an Achilles heel for the realms sanity, and I bet Ed does it to prevent future issues of killing her and railroading the setting for a new edition. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 03:40:00
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Now that would be nice, but I doubt he will get rid of the concept of the Weave. Ao may put a triple-layer firewall, antivirus and malware protection in it though.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 03:53:01
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| With regular scans to make sure no trojans have gotten in? XD |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:08:28
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| Full system deep scans at that. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:16:23
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Honestly, I think Ao will create a method that will make Mystra not such an Achilles heel for the realms sanity, and I bet Ed does it to prevent future issues of killing her and railroading the setting for a new edition.
Really, this has already been established by Ed. Mystra/the Weave are interwoven into the spatia-temporal reality of the Realms. To bend or break one is to bend or break the other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 05:31:30
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| Good thing to notice, hopefully the sundering fixes this and sperates the two :P |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 05:33:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
With regular scans to make sure no trojans have gotten in? XD
Can we just have a restore point instead :P |
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eiglos
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 22:15:08
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In her original form Lurue would be very powerful as well, as she is the Art embodied in divinity. Mystra is only concerned with seeing to the magical balance of Faerun.
As the Realms are returning to a "previous version", could Lurue be returning in her original guise as well? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 23:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by eiglos
In her original form Lurue would be very powerful as well, as she is the Art embodied in divinity. Mystra is only concerned with seeing to the magical balance of Faerun.
As the Realms are returning to a "previous version", could Lurue be returning in her original guise as well?
As a fan of Lurue, I'd like that, but I don't see them undoing changes from the OGB. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 00:56:14
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| As a fan of Gruumsh, I‘d like to see a rollback event as well. Bring back the manly-bestial orcs of yore! For the record, I maintain that ol‘ Gruumshy is way cooler than insidious Bane. For the fiction and heroes to defeat Bane on a regular basis is kinda expected, for Bane sorta works through evil tyrannical men who really oughtta be slapped down before they cause too much badness and suffering. But for Gruumsh to be defeated one must only defeat nasty warmongering monsters who instead represent the positive aspects of humanity through a contrast of opposites. I admit that sinister humans are worse than rapaciously hateful monsters, but Realms fiction seems to prefer dark humans (and now also dark heroes) who can theoretically evoke sympathy and even a chance for redemption. I say keep things simple, subjugate Bane (and Shar and Talos and the rest of that bumbling crew) and put One Eye in charge, see some real progress! |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 03:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by eiglos
In her original form Lurue would be very powerful as well, as she is the Art embodied in divinity. Mystra is only concerned with seeing to the magical balance of Faerun.
As the Realms are returning to a "previous version", could Lurue be returning in her original guise as well?
The whimsical Lurue, as Ed has previously described her, I would definitely hope would return. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 04:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As a fan of Gruumsh, I‘d like to see a rollback event as well. Bring back the manly-bestial orcs of yore! For the record, I maintain that ol‘ Gruumshy is way cooler than insidious Bane. For the fiction and heroes to defeat Bane on a regular basis is kinda expected, for Bane sorta works through evil tyrannical men who really oughtta be slapped down before they cause too much badness and suffering. But for Gruumsh to be defeated one must only defeat nasty warmongering monsters who instead represent the positive aspects of humanity through a contrast of opposites. I admit that sinister humans are worse than rapaciously hateful monsters, but Realms fiction seems to prefer dark humans (and now also dark heroes) who can theoretically evoke sympathy and even a chance for redemption. I say keep things simple, subjugate Bane (and Shar and Talos and the rest of that bumbling crew) and put One Eye in charge, see some real progress!
i hope old Gruumsh comes back, see what weenies the many arrows orcs arc and slaps the current Obould so hard the whole line is remove from history and we get a silver marches battle royale |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 28 Aug 2013 04:36:53 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2013 : 10:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As a fan of Gruumsh, I‘d like to see a rollback event as well. Bring back the manly-bestial orcs of yore! For the record, I maintain that ol‘ Gruumshy is way cooler than insidious Bane. For the fiction and heroes to defeat Bane on a regular basis is kinda expected, for Bane sorta works through evil tyrannical men who really oughtta be slapped down before they cause too much badness and suffering. But for Gruumsh to be defeated one must only defeat nasty warmongering monsters who instead represent the positive aspects of humanity through a contrast of opposites. I admit that sinister humans are worse than rapaciously hateful monsters, but Realms fiction seems to prefer dark humans (and now also dark heroes) who can theoretically evoke sympathy and even a chance for redemption. I say keep things simple, subjugate Bane (and Shar and Talos and the rest of that bumbling crew) and put One Eye in charge, see some real progress!
Progress? I argue that Gruumsh has the foresight to effect things in a greater picture in terms that his followers can comprehend it and speed it along. True orcs can be intelligent but given their social status in the realms and the stigmata attached to it they can never even hope to achieve what other races may achieve without major shifts in either social acceptance (Many-Arrow Kingdom being the exception) or conflict that pits them against other races.
Let´s not forget that Gruumsh also embodies the savage aspects of the orcs and that in the end hinders progression beyond specific limits.
The "human" gods on the other hand can achieve that, granted they have such ambition and abilities, and thus are more likely to shape events in ways that truely bring progress. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The most powerful deity
