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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:07:55
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| Fine, you don't like gods. Maybe we could get back to letting people who do like the gods speak on who their patron deity would be? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 15:30:18
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Of course. Why, am I that powerful to prevent other scribes from speaking their fave deity? I was merely replying to those posts directed at me. So . . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 18:52:54
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| Forced to make a definite choice, I think I'd still go for old Karsus. A most imperfect match yet perhaps the best available from the Realms roster. I suppose elements of Deneir, Azuth, or Gond might do in a pinch ... and I suspect my affinity would be towards places like Mechanus or Acheron. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 04:06:08
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I think it might be cool to be a celestial (not a god, but an angel or servitor). Careful what I wish for, of course, but as a devotee of Corellon, I think it would be rewarding to deliver elven souls to Arvandor  . I know they already exist, such as Lashrael (sp?) and....shoot, forgetting the other one's name, but who says they can't have more? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 10:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think it might be cool to be a celestial (not a god, but an angel or servitor). Careful what I wish for, of course, but as a devotee of Corellon, I think it would be rewarding to deliver elven souls to Arvandor . I know they already exist, such as Lashrael (sp?) and....shoot, forgetting the other one's name, but who says they can't have more?
Felarathael, IIRC. They were first considered demigods, in 2e Elves of Evermeet sourcebook, and then turned into solars (with a different appearance) in Demihuman Deities. I liked both versions!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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artificial_sunlight
Acolyte
Netherlands
14 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 13:21:41
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Fenmarel Mestarine and Erevan Ilesere are my chosen deities. They are Elves, uncommon, a bit rogue like.
And if I play NWN2 online, I like to play on my own, and only team up if it's necessary. Sow they fit RP wise. |
Dutch FR Story Collector |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2013 : 14:22:53
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| Shar, for being the most nihilist god |
z455t |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2013 : 04:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think it might be cool to be a celestial (not a god, but an angel or servitor). Careful what I wish for, of course, but as a devotee of Corellon, I think it would be rewarding to deliver elven souls to Arvandor . I know they already exist, such as Lashrael (sp?) and....shoot, forgetting the other one's name, but who says they can't have more?
Felarathael, IIRC. They were first considered demigods, in 2e Elves of Evermeet sourcebook, and then turned into solars (with a different appearance) in Demihuman Deities. I liked both versions!
Thank you! I know it started with an F, but I couldn't remember the name. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2013 : 05:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Interesting discussion here. On one hand we have folks who apparently want to scratch, bite, and stab their way to the "top" of the pile of BBEG's and "do what I want!" In other words, these are the folks who don't think they should have to take crap from anyone, and don't care who they step on along their path. Pretty immoral/"ebil" ideology to begin with- looks like they'd end up in the Hells regardless....
On the other hand, we have those who simply want to enjoy their hard-earned eternity of frolicking, pursuing lofty good goals, etc. We seem to have two opposite view of what makes an afterlife enjoyable. One is an eternal struggle for "power and supremacy", the other is "I EARNED it, so I'm going to ENJOY it!" Neither is necessarily "right", but one seems to be FAR more inclined toward causing/suffering pain and disillusionment, disappointment, and loss. Honestly, guys- take a GOOD, HARD look at what you've set as your goals, and then ask if there is any chance REALISTICALLY of doing what you claim you would. As opposed to this macho-bravado speak of "I WOULD do this because I COULD!" No, more than likely, you couldn't- unless you were INCREDIBLY powerful and cunning and talented to begin with- IN LIFE! And I seriously doubt ANY of us here is/would be good enough at playing those games to achieve any real power.... Just a thought from a different perspective. Is ANY of us here REALLY so exceptional that we could have a (pardon the pun, but it fits!) chance in the Hells of getting to that point? Yeah- RIIIGGGHHTT.....
Edited for spell....
What the winner don't know, the gambler understands.
As the song goes. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2013 : 08:14:12
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| For me it is Mystra, always will be, and is for the same reason I always preferred the realms over other settings. The Forgotten Realms is a world of magic. Magic is a part of everything. Simple common cantrips and titanic world changing spells and mythals and wild magic and dead magic and the list never ends. Magic is what makes fantasy fantasy, and not just hack and slash rpg. Its is what opens everything into unlimited possibilities. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2013 : 23:06:06
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@ CoA: Yeeeaahhh.... There's gambling, and then there's just plain bat-sh*t crazy gambling. That's the kind of "game" you AIN'T ever gonna' win! I'f I were to place bets on the outcome, I'd bet that you'd have a very SHORT career in the Hells- as a lower-tier devil's "living" foot-stool. And then blasted to oblivion just because he got bored.
I'd say that Dennis would probably have a similar fate- though it could come from just about anywhere in his case, being that he's got a thing about "not dying". Death comes when you LEAST expect it..... And usually in the ONE way you never thought to prepare for:
"Oh, you're going to take me out with a Rod of Wonder? Pfft. Those things are just toys for bored mages...."
Later: *turned into stone*
Mage: "Guess there's your 'immortality'!!" |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 10:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
@ CoA: Yeeeaahhh.... There's gambling, and then there's just plain bat-sh*t crazy gambling. That's the kind of "game" you AIN'T ever gonna' win! I'f I were to place bets on the outcome, I'd bet that you'd have a very SHORT career in the Hells- as a lower-tier devil's "living" foot-stool. And then blasted to oblivion just because he got bored.
I'd say that Dennis would probably have a similar fate- though it could come from just about anywhere in his case, being that he's got a thing about "not dying". Death comes when you LEAST expect it..... And usually in the ONE way you never thought to prepare for:
"Oh, you're going to take me out with a Rod of Wonder? Pfft. Those things are just toys for bored mages...."
Later: *turned into stone*
Mage: "Guess there's your 'immortality'!!"
Hah, no faith.
Truth is I'm just trying to make the most of it. I'd be going to hell, regardless- I'm a terrible person. Don't try and hide it, don't make apologies for it.
So, I take the gamble. If I lose, I'm no worse off than I'd be if I didn't play. And there's always that one in a million chance. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 12:27:25
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Or you could I dont know try to be a better person . Adopt some orphans or something, join the chruch of a goodly God. Even the "nice" gods need someone to take care of dirty tasks.
I am just saying in a world where hell is a real, physical place you might figure this would give a better chance. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 20:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Or you could I dont know try to be a better person . Adopt some orphans or something, join the chruch of a goodly God. Even the "nice" gods need someone to take care of dirty tasks.
I am just saying in a world where hell is a real, physical place you might figure this would give a better chance.
I like who I am. I'm comfortable with what I am. I'm not going to be bribed into changing who I am by the promise of a cushy afterlife. I'm at peace with my fate, and I face it without fear. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2013 : 23:53:04
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What about the afterlife as a demon in the Abyss or the Barrens of Doom and Despair? Think of the potential power, making possible the havoc, the screams of the vanquished, the adrenaline of the hunt, the trill of passions. Deep down, those are the heights of primal emotions all beings savor to feel. The primal emotions ruling the natural world. Let the veneir of societies mores fall, take what you want, how you want, when you want it.
A cunning petitioner can have powers equal to tanar'ri and hone them to an edge for eons, essentially evolving into more and more powerful forms if the deities plane or the Abyss deems it worthy of so.
If on Toril, I'd not be swayed by the lies of false gods pretending to be safe in their home domains. Look at Mystras petitioners when Dweomerhart shattered apart upon the Harlots death. They were tasty morsels for demons and devils when their souls were cast adrift on the astral. Even deities who end up scattered like that got consumed.
The afterlife is far from eternal. After Cyric is done you'll all end up in the Abysss eventually anyway. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 09:52:54
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| *wacks Bladewind back into the hole he crawled out from* Be gone Heretic! |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2013 : 21:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Or you could I dont know try to be a better person . Adopt some orphans or something, join the chruch of a goodly God. Even the "nice" gods need someone to take care of dirty tasks.
I am just saying in a world where hell is a real, physical place you might figure this would give a better chance.
I like who I am. I'm comfortable with what I am. I'm not going to be bribed into changing who I am by the promise of a cushy afterlife. I'm at peace with my fate, and I face it without fear.
I'll go with the cushy afterlife. You feel eternal joy, and as someone who suffered from depression in high school, I wouldn't mind being happy for eternity. I mean, what if you go to the Hells and your gamble fails? Besides, a truly terrible person is a rapist or murderer, or, as Sparrow said "the deepest circle of hells is reserved for betrayers and mutineers". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2013 : 01:30:22
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Patron deity...
Ah! Nyarlathotep!
*dodges eggs and rotten fruit* Okay...no more aboleth moments, I promise...
Oghma, without a doubt. All knowledge is worth having. Silvanus would be a close second...I like the thought of a god that originated with my real-world forebears being one of the Honcho Gods of the Realms. 
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 17 Mar 2013 01:31:19 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 03:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Or you could I dont know try to be a better person . Adopt some orphans or something, join the chruch of a goodly God. Even the "nice" gods need someone to take care of dirty tasks.
I am just saying in a world where hell is a real, physical place you might figure this would give a better chance.
I like who I am. I'm comfortable with what I am. I'm not going to be bribed into changing who I am by the promise of a cushy afterlife. I'm at peace with my fate, and I face it without fear.
I'll go with the cushy afterlife. You feel eternal joy, and as someone who suffered from depression in high school, I wouldn't mind being happy for eternity. I mean, what if you go to the Hells and your gamble fails? Besides, a truly terrible person is a rapist or murderer, or, as Sparrow said "the deepest circle of hells is reserved for betrayers and mutineers".
I invoke my fifth amendment rights against self incrimination. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 05:15:57
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I think if I were in the Realms, it would really depend on which deity actually ever did anything for me. Simply reading up on an interesting portfolio in some reference book wouldn't be enough. That deity would have to break out of its non-interference mode and actually do something for me.
No do for me . . . no do for you.
So unless a god/-dess ever did for me, then yeah, I'd say, "Bring on the Wall!" It would suck, but it would fit my stubborn principles better than submission to/alignment with some empty text in a scroll.
"All in all you're just a . . . nother brick in the Wall." |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 05:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I think if I were in the Realms, it would really depend on which deity actually ever did anything for me. Simply reading up on an interesting portfolio in some reference book wouldn't be enough. That deity would have to break out of its non-interference mode and actually do something for me.
No do for me . . . no do for you.
So unless a god/-dess ever did for me, then yeah, I'd say, "Bring on the Wall!" It would suck, but it would fit my stubborn principles better than submission to/alignment with some empty text in a scroll.
"All in all you're just a . . . nother brick in the Wall."
So...you would rather be a brick for all eternity? Hehe well the gods don't answer to every single person on Faerun. But as I have said, unless you truly turn your back on them and don't even acknowledge their existence, or defile a temple, then when you die, a god who bests fits your ideology would take you in (they recognize what is in a person's heart) . Remember, in the Realms, the gods are more than just "empty scrolls". In the RW, we have to rely on faith (for those who believe), but in the Realms, the gods are real. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 05:33:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Maybe being the #2 to Asmodeus isn't so bad. You don't have the target on your chest, then.
I don't think the matron mothers of Menzo would agree with you. #2 through #8 are just as much a bunch of targets as #1. Hells, they're probably viewed as easier to take down than #1, so they're probably even greater targets.
Asmo might seem like the juicier target, but he probably also seems like the harder target. You want him to seem juicier and easier. Good luck with that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 06:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So...you would rather be a brick for all eternity?
I'd rather face that punishment with my head held high, like a man, than go running from it like a child, or bowing on bent knee, for the bribes of tiptoeing through the tulips, a library of knowledge to read, or some virgins to devirginize.
I'd rather not claim any deity that was too passive to actually be a patron to me--you know: to get off its butt and do something for me.
quote:
Hehe well the gods don't answer to every single person on Faerun.
How convenient.
Excuses, excuses.
Well, if any of them want this single person, then they'd better answer to this one. I don't really care about the others, when it comes to me picking a favored deity for me.
quote:
But as I have said, unless you truly turn your back on them and don't even acknowledge their existence,
Unless a deity actually personally revealed itself it to me in some crystal clear way, how would I know if the gods existed, at all? How could I reasonably acknowledge, or deny, such existence?
Much has been said of the fact that magic abounds in the Realms, so that means there would be few, if any atheists. But to that, I say, "Not so fast." Just because magic existed, would not necessarily mean that a god would. Just because a priest of Moradin performed a magic spell would not automatically mean that Moradin was the source of that magic. Maybe the "priest" was just an arcanist, and he was throwing in some flowery religious lingo for show!
So without definitive proof of a godly source of Realmsian magic, I would be doubtful, much as I am in Real Life. And methinks that that would be the most reasonable stance to take, of all.
I loved that aspect of Cadderly Bonaduce in "The Cleric Quintet".
But it irked me that he was a priest of any deity at all, when he had that agnostic, undeclared mentality.
Reading up on cool-sounding afterlives might be fun, like some sort of vacation brochures or travelogues. But again, that would not be enough to lead me to decide that a would-be deity associated with that paradise was any more real than any of the other would-be deities. I don't base my understanding of reality or truth merely on advertisements or bribes of happiness.
quote:
a god who bests fits your ideology would take you in (they recognize what is in a person's heart) .
That's some "patron"! It sounds more like a conquering warlord. "Ah, yes, I like that dude; I think I'll claim him for my own, even though he never once even uttered my name!" 
I don't deny the canonicity of that claim.
I just have never cared enough to get into the religion of the Realms to try to figure out which one of the gods I would most like, if they were real. That's never been the slightest bit appealing to me. It's similar to the fact that god-shopping isn't really appealing to me, in RL, either.
I like well-told fantasy fiction, told in the Realms. Maybe if my favored author, RAS, ever got around to writing about the gods taking active roles within the Realms, I might get interested in a goddess or two. But until then, I'm much more focused on the doings of the mortals. Dwarves, for example, I can relate to. Moradin and Clangeddin and Dumathoin? Meh, not so much.
quote:
Remember, in the Realms, the gods are more than just "empty scrolls". In the RW, we have to rely on faith (for those who believe), but in the Realms, the gods are real.
So says you. But I've read a lot that says that the gods tend to minimize their involvement in the Realms, preferring to save their magical interference in mortal affairs for only the most pressing situations. Or, they are far more likely to be seen in their various avatar guises than in their true forms.
Is that not true?
Their reluctance to make themselves really known belies that notion that they are all that real in the Realms. They are real in the canon, in the books, in the literature, in the text. But for me, their reality would be measured by their actions being directly observed, directly tied back to them, and differentiated from any other potential agents (such as merely arcane magic).
It seems that far too many Realmsians take the gods "reality" on nearly as much faith as Real World inhabitants do.
I would call for the same sort of agnostic approach as Cadderly, early on in his personal tale, even though he was surrounded by a whole library of literature dedicated to virtually all of the gods of the entire Realms. Impressive stories should not be enough for any of us to determine the "reality" of a single god, or to choose whom to submit to. We should refrain, as did Cadderly; until a god finally makes itself known to us, personally, as did Deneir.
Anything less, and it wouldn't be much of a patron deity. It would just be a parchment one. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 10:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Remember, in the Realms, the gods are more than just "empty scrolls". In the RW, we have to rely on faith (for those who believe), but in the Realms, the gods are real.
So says you. But I've read a lot that says that the gods tend to minimize their involvement in the Realms, preferring to save their magical interference in mortal affairs for only the most pressing situations. Or, they are far more likely to be seen in their various avatar guises than in their true forms.
In fact, what CorellonsDevout is saying is that in the Realms you can see miracles, as deities grant spells for their believers. Gods tend to minimize their direct interference, it is true, but it is clear that they exist and act through their followers, and so there is little or no space for incredulity. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2013 : 16:34:09
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@BEAST: the gods exist in the Realms. The setting was designed that way. Whether or not the gods directly interact with mortals or not, they are still there, and I've actually read several books where the deities make physical appearances, and are even characters (War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent, for example). The Realms are different from the real world.
When, say, a dwarf dies, there spirit will go to the Halls of Moradin, whether they pay special tribute to him or not, unless that dwarf specifically worships a deity outside the dwarven pantheon. Same is true for elves, halflings, etc. For humans it's a little more broad based, since the "human pantheon" is probably the largest. This is not to say other races can't worship them too. Mielikki and Silvanus have an elven following. But it's been shown the gods and the afterlife in the Realms exist, whether that holds true for the real world or not. They are part of the setting.
Evermeet: Island of Elves, written by the lovely Elaine, is also a good example. There are scenes that actually take place in Arvandor, both with the gods, and with mortals. And in Richard Baker's The Last Mythal series, Starbow remembers being in Arvandor. The gods make appearances in some of the Elminster books, not to mention the Avatar series. Part of the Empyrean Odyssey takes place in Celestia, and Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms book discusses the after life. Grand History of the Realms mentions deeds done by the gods. I call all that evidence! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 19 Mar 2013 03:23:00 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 04:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In fact, what CorellonsDevout is saying is that in the Realms you can see miracles, as deities grant spells for their believers. Gods tend to minimize their direct interference, it is true, but it is clear that they exist and act through their followers, and so there is little or no space for incredulity.
It is clear to me that canon says that Realmsians generally consider it clear, but not why they consider it clear. Observing magic being displayed through religious persons does not prove the existence of those persons' favored deities. It just proves the existence of magic.
This leads me to think that blind faith is a much bigger part of Realmsian religion than people here have acknowledged.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@BEAST: the gods exist in the Realms. The setting was designed that way. Whether or not the gods directly interact with mortals or not, they are still there, and I've actually read several books where the deities make physical appearances, and are even characters (War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent, for example). The Realms are different from the real world.
Right. I don't deny that the gods exist in the Realms, since we've clearly been told so. Lolth walked Faerūn, herself, in Siege of Darkness. I get that.
But if I were a Realmsian, I would not pick a deity for me unless I knew from personal experience that that deity did something for me. I would not align myself with it simply based on passages in scrolls/books. I would refrain from it, until I was given proof of that god's efficacy.
And I would justify it on the grounds of, "Hey, you wouldn't want me blindly following some other god based on nothing more than what I merely read in a scroll, right? So in order to avoid making that mistake, I'm holding out for more. You do more for me than that god, and I'll give you more allegiance and liturgical diligence, yada-yada."
quote:
When, say, a dwarf dies, there spirit will go to the Halls of Moradin, whether they pay special tribute to him or not, unless that dwarf specifically worships a deity outside the dwarven pantheon. Same is true for elves, halflings, etc.
Well, then, in that case, some random god would steal my soul, and I guess I would have to go, kicking and screaming, wouldn't I?
That still doesn't sound like much of a patron deity, to me. It just sounds like a thief.
quote:
I call all that evidence!
It's evidence that some gods did something for some other people.
That would effect me how?
Again, not denying the existence of deities, in Realms. I'm saying that my choice to pick one would be dependent on one actually doing more than merely appearing in a bunch of old books. That god would have to actually hook me up!
Otherwise, they would just be like exotic monsters from some far away land, told about in books, but having zero bearing on my life. I wouldn't hold any particular affinity for any such creature, or any such deity. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 04:18:54
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Well, some of your comments made it sound like you were questioning their existence. And as far as "stealing the soul" goes, I would have to disagree. I mean, if it was an evil aligned deity, then yeah, you could call it stealing. I wouldn't want to be in the Abyss, for example, but a benevolent deity isn't going to be like "I have your soul, so polish my shoes or I will punish you!" Being in a good-aligned (or even neutral) deity's realm would be better than being part of the Wall, and I find consolation when I know my favorite characters, if they die, go to a good afterlife. There have been exceptions, unfortunately. But if you would rather be on the Wall, well...your choice. It would be sad though  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 19 Mar 2013 04:45:35 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 10:48:25
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quote:
Being in a good-aligned (or even neutral) deity's realm would be better than being part of the Wall, and I find consolation when I know my favorite characters, if they die, go to a good afterlife. There have been exceptions, unfortunately. But if you would rather be on the Wall, well...your choice. It would be sad though
People in the Reams should be able to choose whether to worship some entity or not to. The Wall is a really cheap and boring idea IMO, because it takes away much freedom of decision that mortals should have (and this is especially true in my vision of religion in the Realms. I tend to see the act of 'worshipping' a god -well, the reasonable ones at least- as being his/her/its ally, as sharing a goal and working together for it, not as being the servant of some entity and having 'faith' in it. The Wall simply forces people in a position of subservience to the gods in some way, and this really sucks in my eyes). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Mar 2013 10:57:56 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 10:59:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It is clear to me that canon says that Realmsians generally consider it clear, but not why they consider it clear. Observing magic being displayed through religious persons does not prove the existence of those persons' favored deities. It just proves the existence of magic.
Not when a priest feels his or her deity and knows from where the divine magic comes from. Religion is about a relationship between believer and deity. And in Ed's world, and especially in some sacred places, non-priests can, eventually, cast divine spells, have prophetic dreams, and so on. I'm pretty sure the nature and source of divine magic is widely recognized and unquestioned. Besides, we could question for a priest to honor someone else (the deity) or some ideal (the portfolio) if, with magic purely, he or she could prize him or herself and do whatever he or she wants.
Maybe people could question if deities are what they claim to be, or if they are only long-lived, powerful spellcasters. They could question if they are around from the beggining of times, and if they truly are the representants of their portfolios (Tempus as war incarnated, Tyr as justice, and so on). Planescape deals a lot with those diferent points of view, making it clear that their view of the multiverse and the different pantheons is what gives them a unique perspective.
Finally, many people adhere to a deity not because of what they did for them, but maybe for what they can do. They ask for protection at the seas, success in a battle, luck in a difficult situation, and so on. Have you read the deities section of "Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms"? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 11:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
People in the Reams should be able to choose whether to worship some entity or not to. The Wall is a really cheap and boring idea IMO, because it takes away much freedom of decision that mortals should have (and this is especially true in my vision of religion in the Realms. I tend to see the act of 'worshipping' a god -well, the reasonable ones at least- as being his/her/its ally, as sharing a goal and working together for it, not as being the servant of some entity and having 'faith' in it. The Wall simply forces people in a position of subservience to the gods in some way, and this really sucks in my eyes).
I read somewhere that if someone doesn't follow or is subservient to a god, it doesn't means that he or she will end up in the wall. It is reserved for those who defy the gods. Of course, in a world where people can see the works of the deities ande maybe even meet a deity first-handedly, it is hard for someone not to believe in them. And most people are not subservient to a god, but are served by them, in a way, by having their prayers answered. Or, at least, they try their chances, by asking (why not?). And remember, most people are not restricted to one god: they pray for Chauntea for good crops, to Tymora when they need luck, to Talos to appease him in a storm, and there it goes... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Who is your patron deity?
