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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 12:10:28
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AFAIK, the ones who defy the gods are called 'false' and act as conscripts in the City of Judgement, the faithless end up in the Wall.
As for the matter of prayers being answered, it really isn't the point of this. Thing is that the Wall forces people to pray the gods, taking away the freedom of choosing to not bow to some divine entity. I like when people choose to be agents of a deity on the prime, because they know his/her/its goal and they think it is an achievement worth fighting or simply working for, and therefore start 'worshipping' the god (but it is in truth some kind of collaboration between the mortals and the deity, as I see it). It is an entirely different matter when people are forced to pray some deity just to not get utterly obliterated after the death of their bodies, thus being in a position of subservience to the gods. I find this to be truly irking and, as far as I can see, I'm not the only one. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 12:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
AFAIK, the ones who defy the gods are called 'false' and act as conscripts in the City of Judgement, the faithless end up in the Wall.
As for the matter of prayers being answered, it really isn't the point of this. Thing is that the Wall forces people to pray the gods, taking away the freedom of choosing to not bow to some divine entity.
The point is what defines a "faithless". I'm pretty sure of what I've said, of a faithless being someone who defies or disrespects the gods, religious people and so. IIRC it is in the "Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's FR" book. If someone doesn't bow to any god but promoted justice through his or her life, he or she will spend eternity in the realms of Tyr, in the afterlife. Since the mortal ideals are akin to the deity, his or her afterlife will be in a realm that fits to his or her idea of a paradise.
EDIT: Here it is: "The average Faernian lives long enough to worship (or serve through ones actions) one deity above all othersthough in many cases, which deity a given person has served most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else. If a mortal dies before finishing a mission or a task for a particular deity and its a matter he felt strongly about in life, he could be sent back by that deity, reborn as another mortal, to try to complete that task. Otherwise, he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook. Only those who repudiate the gods (or who as a result of their actions are renounced by their gods), despoil altars and frustrate the clerical aims of any deity, or never pray or engage in any form of deliberate worship will qualify as either Faithless or False."
Well, in fact the last phrase can make you think that deities demand worship... But if you think that "any form of deliberate worship" can be praying once in the entire lifetime, even if it is to say thanks for one thing or to ask for one specific blessing, those cases must be rare indeed. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 19 Mar 2013 12:45:02 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 12:42:39
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| I agree, but I don't think the Wall is eternal. It's been maintained by a few recent death gods, one future death god could change its mind. If not, the planes are shaped by belief, gods and other outsiders fight over it for eons, even those happy petitioners in Arvandor or Brightwater aren't safe. Given time their layer could drop into the Abyss. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 13:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Well, in fact the last phrase can make you think that deities demand worship... But if you think that "any form of deliberate worship" can be praying once in the entire lifetime, even if it is to say thanks for one thing or to ask for one specific blessing, those cases must be rare indeed.
Well, it really depends on what ''any form of deliberate worship'' means. If it was as you say, then the wall would actually be kind of useless (faithless would get a free 'get out of jail' card); if it wasn't, we would be in the condition I described above. Either way, the Realms would be far better without it IMO.
PS: My guess is that the since the Wall is a creation of Myrkul (AFAIK), it is indeed meant to force mortals to bow to the gods, and that actual worship -not the once in a lifetime thing- is therefore required in order to not end up as a brick.
Besides paying only lipservice to a god will mark you as 'false', with the life of conscript in the City of Judgement that this entails (again, AFAIK). The afterlife in the Realms is made so that the mortals who choose to not deal with gods will always get the short end of the stick, limiting people's freedom of choice in this regard, no matter how you try to look at it.
I would like it if it was as you suggested (i.e., it is not the act of praying that defines where you go once dead, but the ideals you worked/fought for. However, it shouldn't be the same as being 'claimed' by a god, but simply 'living' in that plane w/o having to work for him/her/it, since it should be a choice of the petitioner), it would totally make sense, which the Wall makes none IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Mar 2013 14:05:33 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 14:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
PS: My guess is that the since the Wall is a creation of Myrkul (AFAIK), it is indeed meant to force mortals to bow to the gods, and that actual worship -not the once in a lifetime thing- is therefore required in order to not end up as a brick.
Well, and maybe the rules changed from its creation by Myrkul - if it was really him, and not Jergal, maybe, that created the Wall - to Kelemvor's ascendance as master of death...
And the wall still makes sense if it exists mainly to punish those who repudiate the gods, even if only in their actions. And there is a relation between the faithless and souls that are stolen by fiends, although I cannot find and quote the reference now. And AFAIK I read that the god's agents claim people that served their patrons somehow, "the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook".
If I understood it correctly, if you pay lip service to one god you are not necessarily a "False", for "in many cases, which deity a given person has served most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else." Maybe if you pretend to serve one deity, you may be considered "False". But even then, sometimes you are adopted by other deity (and some do it deliberately, like priests of Vhaerun pretending to be Lolth worshippers).
EDIT: My "once in a lifetime prayer" example maybe was a bit extreme, but the point is that I understand that, if you don't serve regularly, and only live your life accordingly to ideals of a deity, not caring about the gods but never denying or disrespecting the deity closer to your principles and practics, I think you are safe from the Wall. As it's rare that someone never prayed, it would be rare too to meet someone who prayed only once...
And the wall would be used mostly as a punishment for those who willingly or not defy the gods, offend them, deny them entirely, or act against all churches and religious services (not in service of another deity's interest). That's what I understood...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 19 Mar 2013 14:42:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 15:47:57
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If people could not care about the gods, live as they wish and not be destined to the Wall for that, the it could make sense as a defense that deities use against mortals (somewhat redundant tho, if we consider that gods have a lot of resources to deal with their foes).
However we have to consider that there are cases where the Wall could be completely unjust, when people marked as 'faithless' actually have all the rights to behave so (and if we consider the endless, stupid Drama the Realmsian Pantheon is famous for and the damage it can do to mortals, these cases won't be so rare).
For example, take this typical scenario: random 'mwahaha, I'm ebil' god sends his/her/its servants to burn down a village for the lulz (justifying it with some stuff in his/her/its dogma, to make it legit as long as the faith goes), or to simply diminish the presence of the church of a hostile deity in the area. Some godless villagers, seeing their houses burned down and their loved ones killed, start a crusade to destroy the church of the offender, not in the name of some deity, but simply for personal revenge. Now, if I got it right, they would be considered faithless and doomed to eternal nothingness for doing something totally understandable. That's stupid in my eyes.
What I mean is that there's the risk to turn the Wall in to a cheap unbeatable obstacle that lessens the role of mortals in the setting, especially considering that once dead, it is impossible to escape it (in my example, the church of the evil god would be virtually untouchable by the wronged people unless they made a tribute to another deity of their avenging crusade, because their fate would be obliteration if they simply decided to 'frustrate the clerical goal' of the pillaging priests for personal reasons. Again, this is stupid).
Heck, even in the case of a mad mage who decides to start fighting the gods there should be a way (beside immortality) to avoid the utter nothingness awaiting.
A version of the Wall that doesn't afflict people who decide to don't deal with the divine is way better than how I thought it was; still the ''wrong a god/priest for any reason, (s)he autowins on the long run and you're doomed forever'' thingy feels poorly thought to me (not to mention that I -personally- fail to understand what depth this concept adds to the Realms) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Mar 2013 16:10:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 21:48:15
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Barastir pretty much said what I would have. I don't particularly like the Wall, either, but it's there. Everyone has a certain set of morals or ideas, and so the gods that embodies that will "pick you up" so to speak, even if you haven't paid tribute to him/her. To use the villagers destroying the church of the offending god, yes, it would be an act of personal revenge, and not in the name of a particular god. But each of those villagers has a certain view of the world, a certain way of living. I could see where it might get murky because they destroyed the church of a god, but I don't think they are defying all the gods (and if they destroyed the church of an evil god, then a benevolent one would probably take them in, unless that villager has an evil heart). To add to that, an enemy deity of that evil deity might applaud the villagers for their deeds.
Vhaeraunites who pretend to worship Lolth so they don't get caught are still considered Vhaeraunites by the Masked Lord. It happens all the time, and both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee encourage "infiltrations" to either spy on the Lolthites or get converts. Now, there are those like Shakti from Starlight and Shadows who indeed worshiped both Vhaeraun and Lolth. I'll admit, that might prove interesting. Maybe it would be whichever deity got to her first, or whichever one, in the end, she "fit" better, which, in Shakti's case, would probably have been Lolth.
The word "claimed" may or may not be correct. It depends on the deity, I think. A benevolent or neutral one, as I have said, isn't going to be "ha! Your soul is mine now!". But they "claim" it in the sense that they take the soul from the Fogue Plane, and it prevents others from snagging it. It's more of a "taking in". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2013 : 23:23:24
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I agree The Wall of the Faitless has a logical place on the fugue. Its walls also form a defence around the city of judgement against soulraids by Tanar'ri, so it's a blessing of some sort at least.
Renouncing the divine is a serious conscious decision not lightly made (or accepted by the gods) on Toril. Not choosing to pray to them is not enough to give up an afterlife. One has to consciously curse all divinity, or deface their emblems whenever one goes or otherwise act anti-religious to be deemed faithless. Certain death gods might be more or less inclined to sentence someone to the wall, and I see Kelemvor as a god that could be trusted to make well thought out discisions regarding the wall. Calling it all hogwash will probably please some chaotic neutral cynical god (like Mask or Erevan Ilesere).
Peoples lives in Toril are steeped in religion. In a small town a religious figure can be expected around every corner, religious icons are openly recogisable inside nearly all hearths, and divine magic is experienced at the many holydays by the common people. Even frontier towns usually have some sort of unmanned shrines for worship that could directly benefit the community (probably to plead for Chauntea, Tempus and Tymora and placate Malar and a Fury god or two).
Religion reaches many children at a young age, so my guess is they are introduced to its concepts early on. Let us say before their teens they probably enthousiasticly declare which deity they find best. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 00:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
To use the villagers destroying the church of the offending god, yes, it would be an act of personal revenge, and not in the name of a particular god. But each of those villagers has a certain view of the world, a certain way of living. I could see where it might get murky because they destroyed the church of a god, but I don't think they are defying all the gods (and if they destroyed the church of an evil god, then a benevolent one would probably take them in, unless that villager has an evil heart). To add to that, an enemy deity of that evil deity might applaud the villagers for their deeds.
From the Elminster's FR quote in Barastir's post
quote:
frustrate the clerical aims of any deity
emphasis mine.
It doesn't matter what view of the world those villagers have or that some other deity could applaud them, they're crusading against a god for a personal reason, not caring about divine laws and stuff like that. They'd be considered faithless according to that definition.
Anyway, I've already made my point: the Wall means that to church and gods autowin on any mortal on the long run, no matter how powerful (s)he is, or how understandable and justified his/her goals/reasons are. I feel that this is cheap and lessens people role in the setting, putting them in a condition of inferiority to the deities.
@Bladewind.
I know that Torillians are religious people and that gods play an important role in their lives, and I'm fine with it (heck, I even like many FR gods and enjoy having them in my version of the setting, with the sort of relationship with their followers I described in my previous posts). However if someone wanted to have nothing to do with such entities, having such a dramatic punishment for it would only limit his/her freedom of choice, which is bad IMO. However, since apparently godless people don't end up in the Wall unless they start fighting deities or their churches w/o divine mandate, this aspect of the matter shouldn't be a problem. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Mar 2013 00:44:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 03:25:48
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Maybe we could stop dwelling on topics of the afterlife, and focus on who would be worshipped while alive?
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2013 : 10:43:00
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Well, acting in revenge, even if not in the name of one god, would be promote the goals of Hoar the Doombringer, and he probably would protect them. But more than that, I don't think a local slaughtering can be considered "clerical aims" as a general, wordlwide conception. We must understand the meaning beyond the words; think of those mortals who offended the greek gods, or of some person or group that took a true crusade against a whole church, trying to eliminate one religion from the world. Think of clerical aims as something with huge proportions, not a single cleric's or a group of priests' local aim. But yes, deities ARE above human beings, they are deities, even if you choose not to bow to them.
But Wooly is right, we are sidetracking this topic. I've already answered it, anyone else have a preferred deity? Even if the aforementioned quote says sometimes mortals don't know which god they are serving the best...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 20 Mar 2013 10:45:07 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 04:20:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we could stop dwelling on topics of the afterlife, and focus on who would be worshipped while alive?
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living.
The afterlife can play a big role, though. Granted, those who worship evil-aligned deities don't care if the afterlife promised by that deity is less than complimentary, but most people would probably want to end up in a decent place, and for some, that could be a factor in deciding their deity. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 08:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
But more than that, I don't think a local slaughtering can be considered "clerical aims" as a general, wordlwide conception.
A local slaughtering is part of a greater goal for deities like, say, Garagos (whose church's clerical aim is basically to spread slaughter and violence as much as possible). Things have to start from a smaller level in order to grow to a global scale.
quote:
or of some person or group that took a true crusade against a whole church, trying to eliminate one religion from the world.
I meant exactly this kind of crusade, which would totally make sense and be understandable in the case of deities of slaughter and related stuff.
Anyway, point taken. And my apologies for derailing the thread.
On topic: If I had to choose a patron deity in the Realms, I'd probably pick Eilistraee (or even Lliira: freedom is a very appealing aspect of what they stand for; and if their teachings were followed, the world would actually be a happier and more beautiful place), or Oghma (research and gathering knowledge are always goals to be applauded). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Mar 2013 08:53:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 12:22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we could stop dwelling on topics of the afterlife, and focus on who would be worshipped while alive?
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living.
The afterlife can play a big role, though. Granted, those who worship evil-aligned deities don't care if the afterlife promised by that deity is less than complimentary, but most people would probably want to end up in a decent place, and for some, that could be a factor in deciding their deity.
It shouldn't be a factor -- part of the patron deity concept is selecting a deity to match your personal beliefs. Making a concious decision, based on the afterlife, means changing your beliefs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 13:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living.
(...)
Making a concious decision, based on the afterlife, means changing your beliefs.
Well, many religious people live their lives, fighting their daily battles, but always in hope and looking for a better, brighter future in their afterlife, and it strongly affects their lifestyles. I'm not sure if there are so few individuals in the Realms that think differently, even if it is another world, with a multitude of gods and pantheons and a somewhat different view on religion. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 22:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living.
(...)
Making a concious decision, based on the afterlife, means changing your beliefs.
Well, many religious people live their lives, fighting their daily battles, but always in hope and looking for a better, brighter future in their afterlife, and it strongly affects their lifestyles. I'm not sure if there are so few individuals in the Realms that think differently, even if it is another world, with a multitude of gods and pantheons and a somewhat different view on religion.
Most real-world religions are monotheistic, and your choices for the afterlife are either comfort or extreme discomfort, for all of eternity. Real-world religions are black or white -- religion in the Realms is anything but black and white.
The Realms are not monotheistic, and it's already been established that most people will have, as their patron deity, the deity that most closely matches their personal outlook on life. People pick their deities based on who they are -- not where they expect to go when they die in 50 or 75 years.
If I'm a guardsman, dedicated to doing my job, even at the expense of my personal life, then my patron deity -- the one that most closely matches my personality -- is going to be either Torm or Helm. If I decide I want to have an afterlife of endless sex, I'd need to be a follower of Sharess -- and to properly follow her, I'd have to forsake my duties and the job that has defined my life up until then. My personality would have to change, if I wanted the eternal sexy funtime afterlife.
And that's my point. People don't have to change who they are to follow a deity, because there's already one that matches them. And a person would have to change who they were to change that deity.
It's obviously not impossible for a person to radically alter their personality and their life -- but it's not a frequent occurrence, and when there's already someone who matches who you are now and will reward you with an afterlife suited to your personality, then why change who you are? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 22:50:23
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
Most real-world religions are monotheistic, and your choices for the afterlife are either comfort or extreme discomfort, for all of eternity.
Ah, well actually this is not true. Most real-world religions are not monotheistic, whether counted individually or by a census of faithful populations. Nor do most real-world religions subscribe to an eternal afterlife, let alone limit the options only to extremes of paradise and punishment. This assumes you do not limit the definition of "real-world" to what is actually only a minority segment of the real-world, and further limit it to only those religions which are currently active.
Otherwise, my soapy chaotic blue friend, I heartily agree with the point I believe you were trying to make with this statement, and I essentially agree with the remainder of your arguments. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Mar 2013 22:54:12 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2013 : 22:51:04
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I wasn't suggesting a person change their personality just for the afterlife. I am just saying that that the afterlife could be a factor.
But yes, ultimately, your patron deity will be the one that best suits your personality. But your personality can also determine your afterlife, but that is because that afterlife is connected to the respective deity. It comes full circle. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Mar 2013 22:56:28 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 11:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I wasn't suggesting a person change their personality just for the afterlife. I am just saying that that the afterlife could be a factor.
But yes, ultimately, your patron deity will be the one that best suits your personality. But your personality can also determine your afterlife, but that is because that afterlife is connected to the respective deity. It comes full circle.
Totally agreed. And even a person usually have some ideals thet he or she strives to attain... It would be so with religion, too. In the Realms, even if I follow a certain god, maybe I must strive to live by this deity's principles, to guarantee that I will have the afterlife that suits what I want, and not simply what I practice - that CAN be different. Followers of a good deity can "slip" and act cruelly or selfishly, folowers of a nature deity can end up not preserving out of convenience in their lives.
The idea or the expectance of an afterlife, of spending eternity lost or stuck in the dominion of a certain deity, would surely affect them. OK, if I am a guardian and I like the idea of Helm's heaven, the formula is easy. But maybe I haven't chosen to be a guardian, or I prefer living close to nature, but being born in Waterdeep led my life into another path. Even then, I'd rather rest in eternity in Mielikki's glades, for I always loved the countryside, which I visited when I was young and unfortunately couldn't return to when I got older, as I always planned...
Changes of personality are not that easy, and the point is exactly that, people having to do their choices, in a way, by faith. Because maybe the poor guard cannot abandon his duty, at least not easily, because even if he wants a pleasure-filled eternity, he loves his ill mother or for some other reason needs the money. I know, you'd say that love defines his or her personality, but Sharess has good-natured followers who would be divided between being hedonists and taking care of other stuff. And so they cannot choose to be with her?
As it was said, things are not always black-and-white, and that's why I agree with CorellonsDevout, because your desires and plans for your afterlife will affect your choices in worldly life. Not always the deity that best matches what you are now is the deity that defines who you want to be, especially through an eternal afterlife.
And I'm with Ayrik when he says that most RW religions are not monotheistic. Even some that are supposedly monotheistic are truly polytheistic, in a way (think of a plethora of saints that play specific roles and do a lot of miracles, not much different from local, minor deities). But having multiple options will not solve everyone's problem, or fill everyone's options. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 17:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe we could stop dwelling on topics of the afterlife, and focus on who would be worshipped while alive?
I'm fairly certain that the Realms has very few individuals who are actively planning their afterlife, instead of just trying to make it thru the world of the living.
The afterlife can play a big role, though. Granted, those who worship evil-aligned deities don't care if the afterlife promised by that deity is less than complimentary, but most people would probably want to end up in a decent place, and for some, that could be a factor in deciding their deity.
It shouldn't be a factor -- part of the patron deity concept is selecting a deity to match your personal beliefs. Making a concious decision, based on the afterlife, means changing your beliefs.
I disagree. If someone is actively attempting to decide which deity they wish to take as a patron, the deity they wish to center their life around, the afterlife that deity offers is a huge part of the deal. This obviously involves some pre-existing values and philosophy, but what that deity offers to the worshiper matters.
A worshiper of Loviatar isn't (or shouldn't) be under any delusion that their afterlife is going to be one filled with love, joy, freedom, and happiness. When the Maiden of Pain gets her hands on your spirit, you're going to suffer in ways that you could never before have imagined. This might be awesome for someone who is a total masochist, but for most people? Not so much.
Virtually every religion that has ever existed has its own ideas on what happens when you die. It's an important part of that religion. If you go and speak to a practitioner of Jainism or Hinduism, for example, they're going to talk about reincarnation.
The only religion that I can think of that doesn't really have much focus on an afterlife at all is Shintoism. However, none of the faiths in the Realms are even close to that. The only group that gets close to anything remotely Shinto are perhaps Druids. The Realms faith more easily resembles Greek and Norse polytheistic religions - both of which put a heavy emphasis on the afterlife.
It also makes logical sense to focus on an afterlife if you believe your spirit is going to end up there for all eternity. That basically means that is where you're going to be spending the bulk of your time, and that your life in the mortal world is a very temporary thing. Considering the fact that death is a rather common occurrence in the Realms - especially considering the majority of people aren't going to be enjoying our long life expectancy - this fact would be made clear to them again and again.
So, while the Afterlife may not be the only factor that draws someone to their patron deity, I think it should always be a major factor (at least one of the top three). And I think a convincing argument can be made as to it being the only real deciding factor on what deities make the most sense to worship. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 18:57:46
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So you're saying that a person is going to base their entire personality -- their likes, their dislikes, their interests, their career choices, their preferences for how to spend their free time, all of that and more -- on something that's not going to happen to them for 50 or 75 years? No.
Besides, how is the common person going to know exactly what afterlife is offered by every deity? It's not like there's a catalog that handed to every person on their 16th birthday. And if there was, do you think every deity would be truthful about what they offer?
Again, the patron deity is based on who you are. You follow the deity that suits your personality and what you want out of life. That is far and away the largest part of how your patron deity is selected.
Most people don't plan things out a month in advance. You really think someone is going to make a decision and then change everything about who they are, for something that is literally a lifetime away for them?
Humans with normal lifespans don't think in terms of eternity -- they think in terms of days and weeks, and not a lot beyond that. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 20:52:38
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| Why not? your guard example may be dedicated to his duty, but what about in his off-time? He's not on duty 24-7. The rest of the time, he might very well enjoy the finer things in life; he might see that duty as the price he pays for being able to partake of life's pleasures. In other words, his duty is nothing more than a means to an end of enjoying his hedonistic life as one who follows Sharess at heart, even though he's still utterly "faithful" to his duty. How does that not fit with a person's personality? No one is entirely devoted to one thing only. Most people have different aspects of their lives and personalities that may sometimes clash, and the deity/afterlife they CHOOSE is simply the one that is closest to their REAL heart, not necessarily what they are stuck doing in life. Basically, if some peasant is a farmer and works his fileds all his life and prays to Chauntea, but secretly desires to travel the world and sail the sea, whom do you think is going to end up claiming his soul? Chauntea, or Valkur? Or, if that guard lives and breathes his job, but he's heard that Sharess's afterlife is a place where he would no longer have to endure the tedium and dangers of his life of service, but instead reap the rewards of having fulfilled his duties in life, wouldn't it be fair to say that Sharess would "hear" his desire for something better, and claim him? I'd think so. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 21:22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So you're saying that a person is going to base their entire personality -- their likes, their dislikes, their interests, their career choices, their preferences for how to spend their free time, all of that and more -- on something that's not going to happen to them for 50 or 75 years? No.
Besides, how is the common person going to know exactly what afterlife is offered by every deity? It's not like there's a catalog that handed to every person on their 16th birthday. And if there was, do you think every deity would be truthful about what they offer?
Again, the patron deity is based on who you are. You follow the deity that suits your personality and what you want out of life. That is far and away the largest part of how your patron deity is selected.
Most people don't plan things out a month in advance. You really think someone is going to make a decision and then change everything about who they are, for something that is literally a lifetime away for them?
Humans with normal lifespans don't think in terms of eternity -- they think in terms of days and weeks, and not a lot beyond that.
Of course not. Religion doesn't work that way in the Realms. You don't need to shape yourself wholly around a deity. You only need to value and uphold certain concepts. If you worship Sharess, for example, she doesn't expect you to engage in an orgy daily. "You died when you were 60 and missed approximately 34 orgies since your conversion at age 23! No afterlife for you!"
Yes, Sharess will expect you to live a leisurely life of happiness and abundance. However, even more importantly to Sharess is that you ensure that others also enjoy life - particularly taking time to enjoy hedonistic pleasures. (Not just sex, by the way - it could range from dancing, festivals, fun or crazy parties with or without copious amounts of drugs and booze, etc.)
It's the little things that matter most. For example, if your a guy who works loading and unloading ships that come into port in Suzail, Sharess wants you to spend some of your time and money enjoying yourself. This means when you have the time and money to occasionally drop by a festhall and treat yourself out. However, the real test of faith comes when you encounter people who need this in their lives or want it but struggle to get it for themselves. So, let's say he encounters someone down on his luck. The guy wants to get into the festhall, but doesn't have enough coin. Well, you happen to have the coin... To a Sharessen it makes sense to give your coin to the guy down on his luck, because while you may be sacrificing temporary pleasure in the mortal world you'd be earning even more in the afterlife.
If you're a farmer it means that Sharess is going to want you to take time for yourself, and to do what you can to escape as much drudgery as possible. This may mean simply having a few drinks and great sex now and then. When it comes to others, it may mean that you make an effort - once per year - to try and convince everyone in your tiny little village to come together to throw a festival in honor of Sharess. You plan and host it, and you try and invite people from neighboring villages to come join in on the festivities.
Aside from that it comes down to daily prayers, offerings, and minor devotions.
Keep in mind, also, that this isn't a monotheist society so that even a worshiper of Sharess - such as the farmer - is going to also be praying to other deities. Even clerics pray to other deities on occasion. So, selecting a deity as a patron isn't denying other deities. It's simply a statement of where most of your prayers, offerings, and devotions flow toward.
So, my argument isn't that you'd take a patron and ignore the other deities. It's simply that the most intelligent thing to do is select a patron with the best afterlife possible, and then offer prayers to other deities as appropriate and necessary. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 22:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
So, my argument isn't that you'd take a patron and ignore the other deities. It's simply that the most intelligent thing to do is select a patron with the best afterlife possible, and then offer prayers to other deities as appropriate and necessary.
That is not even close to anything that I said...
You're still going with the assumption that everyone knows exactly what each deity offers in the afterlife, and that not a single deity lies about that.
And you're also ignoring the basic premise of a patron deity. Doing nothing more than offering prayers is not what it takes to earn the patron deity's favor. You've got to live and support their ideals and portfolio, not just offer prayers. The gods want more than just lip service. You can pray to Tymora all day every day, but if you don't take risks, she's not paying attention to you.
If you're happiest growing things, and spend all of your free time in a garden, then it doesn't matter how much you pray to Sharess -- Chauntea is your patron deity. If you are a soldier, utterly dedicated to serving your nation, incapable of not doing your duty, then your patron saint is Torm, even if you're spending all of your free time reading in the local library. If, on the other hand, you are a soldier because it's the only way to support your studies, then your patron saint is Oghma.
It's not just worship. It's how you live your life. It's personality and lifestyle, not just words. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 00:19:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, the patron deity is based on who you are. You follow the deity that suits your personality and what you want out of life. That is far and away the largest part of how your patron deity is selected.
Is the "patron deity" concept really based on: 1) the idea that you choose a deity (either one that suits your personality or that promises you cool stuff)?
2) Or is it based on the idea that you choose a personality/lifestyle, and then a deity matching your personality/lifestyle chooses to patronize you?
Wooly, you seem to be advocating 2), while others here seem to be advocating 1). Even the OP seemed to be thinking in terms of 1), by referring to praying to certain gods for specific wants, or having a favorite deity, or identifying which god receives more of your devotion than others.
FWIW, I lean toward your POV, Wooly.
I think this comes down to whether the Realmsian gods are more ego-centric, needing mortals to approve of them personally; or more ideology-centric, wanting mortals to embrace certain abstract principles and values. If a god truly cared about its portfolio and the success of its universal aims, then I would think that the god would be ideology-centric. It seems that only a selfish, petty, immature deity would want people to love that deity personally. (Think of the loose adage, "I don't care if you like me--I just want you to do your job/play your position/get the mission accomplished/etc.")
An ideology-centric god might even be offended that people embraced it because of the bag of goodies that he might possibly have to offer in the afterlife, as opposed to having people embrace specific lifestyles, regardless of the personal rewards or toils that might be attached.
And in order to avoid having people come to his faith on such lowly, tacky grounds, a Realmsian god might not even make its ultimate rewards clearly known; it might compel its scribes and clergy to maintain a sense of secrecy about final outcomes.
Therefore, just because we readers and gamers might happen to know such things by virtue of omnniscient narrators' reference information, that does not necessarily mean that the average Realmsian would know, or even that he is supposed to know.
Honestly, and this is not meant to provoke: do you think the RW Bible's imagery of Heaven as having pearly gates or angels blowing trumpets is meant to be taken literally, or more as a figurative/poetic expression? Come to think of it, does the Bible even go into all that much detail about Heaven, at all; or are its references usually more in the abstract?
As was said earlier, suicide is generally frowned upon by most religions, because actively seeking the final reward is considered to be beneath working to honor key principles and values right here in the current, material world.
So logically speaking, descriptions of afterlives probably should be kept fairly vague, so as to avoid tempting people into journeying into them, prematurely!
If you were to pick the worship of a certain deity because you thought his afterlife sounded rather posh, and you began to ostensibly pursue that deity's stated goals, would you necessarily be of the same heart and mind as that god? Would you truly be following your own personality and aims? Or would you be living a lie, but hoping that it eventually became the truth? How is a Realmsian god supposed to evaluate you, in such a situation: by your intentions, or your actual results? Does she judge you based on how you hope to finally turn out, or based on the inconsistent, conflicted position that you're in right now?
It is interesting to think of the theory that gods and demons were originally just metaphorical personifications of human personality types and principles. From that comes the idea that these entities were actual outgrowths or corporeal manifestations of human ideas, thoughts, and feelings: gods and ghoulies created in the image of man.
But then all of that gets flipped around once people begin to believe that the gods and demons are real living entities completely independent of and beyond mortals. Rather than humans visualizing their own principles and actions fueling and strengthening deities, humans then can begin to think of gods having their own wants and wishes, and then the humans can seek to fulfill some other program that is not their own. It's as if the evolution of the gods did a 180, in that humans went from glorifying their own aims to denigrating them, in favor of someone else's, which are perceived to be different.
Another analogy I thought of is that of profession/career/calling in life. Is it better to seek out whatever form of employment might provide you with the greatest possible income; or to seek out a job that applies your personal talents/skills and allows you to live your principles and values, and then humbly accept whatever income level comes with that? Becoming a hotshot civil litigator might net you a fat paycheck and a jetsetting lifestyle, but is that really what you want out of life: harassing people via the legal system until they capitulate and pay you off to leave them alone? Becoming a specialty surgeon could line your wallet with some nice coinage, but are you sure you want to deal with sick and dying people every day of your life? Should you take that offered promotion if it means becoming even more of a corporate tool and a conformist cog in the machine?
Just because a god's supposed afterlife might be your envisioned goal does not necessarily mean that that god's espoused goals are your own personal principles/values. You might go through the motions, but that doesn't mean that you're being sincere and genuine, either with that god, or with yourself. Therefore, even if you "choose" a certain deity, does not necessarily mean that that deity chooses you.
Methinks that a deity would only choose you if you were being genuine about your aims, completely independent of any thoughts of personal aggrandizement for such. The reward would be because you chose to "do the right thing"--not because you chose the right god/afterlife. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 00:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're still going with the assumption that everyone knows exactly what each deity offers in the afterlife, and that not a single deity lies about that.
I will definitely agree with you that some deities lie about their afterlife. However, by and large I think it's pretty obvious which deity is more likely to lie. Additionally, there are other clergy who are going to lie or tell the truth about the afterlife a certain deity offers.
Cyric can swear up and down that the afterlife he offers is made of all sugar, spice, and everything nice - but everyone knows that he's the god of lies. So, when that priest of Oghma tells you of the horrors that will face you in serving Cyric, who are you most likely to believe? A servant of a deity who values truth and knowledge above all else, or a servant of the deity of lies?
So, while I agree that deities (and their clergy) will lie, I disagree that people do not have any conception of what an afterlife will offer.
Besides, whether or not you buy into the lie is irrelevant. If you believe that all who worship Cyric are elevated to greatness, and shall serve under him as his angelic servants who will rule the mortal world once the Dark Sun has slain the last of the other deities... well... that's perfectly fine. You're still making a choice based on an afterlife, even if it is a poor and misinformed choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And you're also ignoring the basic premise of a patron deity. Doing nothing more than offering prayers is not what it takes to earn the patron deity's favor. You've got to live and support their ideals and portfolio, not just offer prayers. The gods want more than just lip service. You can pray to Tymora all day every day, but if you don't take risks, she's not paying attention to you.
That's exactly what I stated. Hence why in my examples the farmer attempts to throw a festival in honor of Sharess once per year, and the dock worker gives money to someone to enjoy the Festhall. They are actively promoting goals and aims favorable to Sharess, that serve her interests, and thus serve her.
The average faithful follower of Tymora isn't going to spend their every waking moment taking unnecessary risks and testing their luck. The average follower of Lliira isn't going to engage in rebellion to overthrow every noble so that freedom can reign for everyone. The average follower of Sharess does not spend all of their time in the Festhall drinking and participating in orgies.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you're happiest growing things, and spend all of your free time in a garden, then it doesn't matter how much you pray to Sharess -- Chauntea is your patron deity. If you are a soldier, utterly dedicated to serving your nation, incapable of not doing your duty, then your patron saint is Torm, even if you're spending all of your free time reading in the local library. If, on the other hand, you are a soldier because it's the only way to support your studies, then your patron saint is Oghma.
It's not just worship. It's how you live your life. It's personality and lifestyle, not just words.
The key phrase that you used is "if you're happiest". Obviously, if you are happiest farming, and you love it so much that you hope that you'd get to work the land even in the afterlife... then yes, Chauntea might be a suitable patron for you. That in no way contradicts anything that anyone has said.
In fact with your soldier example you just restated exactly what Alystra Illianniis wrote.
That's exactly the point we're making. Just because you're a farmer doesn't mean your patron deity is Chauntea. Do you pray to Chauntea? Absolutely, and most likely very frequently. However, that doesn't mean she's your patron.
The phrase you used - "if you're happiest" - is exactly the point. You're going to want a patron that you can live with serving, and who offers you an afterlife that will make you happy.
If a deity says, "WORSHIP ME OR I WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE SUCK!" Well, you may worship them, but only to placate them. That isn't going to make them your patron. If you believe that worshiping a deity will result in a horrific afterlife, what are the chances that you're going to want that deity to be your patron? Even the most backward country hick knows that they're going to die someday, (unless they're Dennis ) so they know the choice they make in a patron deity is going to matter when it comes to an afterlife.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 00:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It seems that only a selfish, petty, immature deity would want people to love that deity personally.
IMO, you just described every deity in the Realms.
Let me quote the end of Waterdeep, the last book in the Avatar Trilogy.
quote:
"I know who took the Tablets of Fate," Ao replied, silencing Helm with a curt wave of his hand. "Bane and Myrkul have paid for their offenses with their lives. But all of you were guilty, causing worshipers to build wasteful temples, to devote themselves so slavishly to your name that they could not feed their children, even to spill their own blood upon your corrupt altars - all so you could impress each other with your hold over these so-called inferior creatures. Your behavior is enough to make me wish I had not created you."
Ao paused and let his listeners consider his words. Finally, he resumed speaking. "But I did create you and not without purpose. Now, I am going to demand that you fulfill that purpose. From this day forward, your true power will depend upon the number and devotion of your followers."
From one end of the Realms to another, the gods gasped in astonishment. In far off Tsulogoi, Talos the Raging One growled, "Depend on mortals?" The one good eye of his youthful, broad-shouldered avatar was opened wide in outrage and shock.
"Depend on them and more," Ao returned. "Without worshipers, you will wither, even perish entirely. And after what has passed in the Realms, it will not be easy to win the faith of mortals. You will have to earn it by serving them."
In sunny Tesiir, a beautiful woman with silky scarlet hair and fiery red-brown eyes looked as though she were going to retch. "Serve them?" Sune asked.
"I have spoken!" Ao replied.
The first paragraph pretty much lays it out in no uncertain terms.
You and Wooly are advocating for Ao's ideal. I'm simply pointing to the reality of how the deities are portrayed and act. Especially, since as is shown - their power is directly linked to the number of faithful they have... it makes sense to entice them with gifts and promised rewards in the afterlife. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 01:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
If you were to pick the worship of a certain deity because you thought his afterlife sounded rather posh, and you began to ostensibly pursue that deity's stated goals, would you necessarily be of the same heart and mind as that god? Would you truly be following your own personality and aims? Or would you be living a lie, but hoping that it eventually became the truth? How is a Realmsian god supposed to evaluate you, in such a situation: by your intentions, or your actual results? Does she judge you based on how you hope to finally turn out, or based on the inconsistent, conflicted position that you're in right now?
The type of afterlife offered by a deity almost always is highly influenced by the values and ideals they espouse. Thus, it's highly unlikely that you'd align yourself with a deity in which those things conflicted.
Why would you want an afterlife Sharess offered, if you did not share her values and ideals? If you're an authoritarian fascist, for example, Brightwater - especially with Lliira there - is going to be your hell. You're not going to want to go there.
That being said, your question is a good one, and it has an answer. Those who do not truly believe in their deities ideals or values, but instead only offer lip service will end up as Faithless who will be put into the Wall.
The 3E FRCS is clear on this:
quote:
While most souls wander the Fugue Plane until their deity calls them, the Faithless and the False are compelled to enter the city and be judged by Kelemvor. The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing. The False intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they had made a personal commitment.
Striving for the rewards of an afterlife is not the same thing as only offering lip service. Using myself as an example, my goal would be to get into Brightwater. As a result I'd select my patron to be either Sharess or Lliira. I'd pray to them both regularly. I believe strongly that a life of drudgery, tediousness, and suffering is not a life worth living. I believe strongly in freedom, especially individual liberty, and I am strongly opposed to those who try to use power and authority to suppress or harm others. In real life, I advocate against sexual shame and guilt that people frequently develop as a result of our sex-phobic culture. I consider myself part of the sex positive movement which is a social and philosophical movement with the view that all consensual human sexual activities are fundamentally healthy, and that all people should be free to experiment with their sexuality without shame, guilt, or threats of punishment. The only caveat to this open mindedness is the encouragement of safer sex practices.
These are just part of my core values. If I were transported into the Realms, I'd still have these values, even if I were a farmer. It would not be lip service for me to worship Sharess or Lliira.
...and yet, my motivation for worshiping them primarily would STILL be to get into Brightwater. I don't need Sharess or Lliira to hold the values that I hold. They are irrelevant in that sense.
Thus, my only purpose in serving them is because I both agree with their values (which I already hold - regardless of them), and because I believe Brightwater is the best afterlife offered.
As an atheist in real life, imagining myself in the Realms is somewhat silly. I'd see the gods exactly as you describe them "selfish, petty, and immature", but they would be a fact of nature. It'd be like being angry at a hurricane. It's not going to make it go away.
So, I have to make do. I have to look for which deity most aligns with my values, and who is going to offer me the best reward when I kick the bucket. After all, I'm going to be stuck with them forever, so the choice I'd make should definitely be a good one. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 23 Mar 2013 01:33:05 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 04:16:15
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This is off topic, but I have to comment on the mention of Shinto. I’ve read some things on Shinto (though I am by no means an expert). It is quite true that their emphasis is on this life, not the afterlife, but they do believe in an afterlife. The soul, known as tama, after a period of time, joins with the family kami (loosely translated as god or spirit), and eventually merge with other kami. They are very much a part of nature. I am pulling this from the top of my head, and since this isn’t the place to talk about it, I’ll stop. Just had to say []
Anyway some deities can be very selfish, but they will also look at a person’s morals/ideologies. Yes, a deity is only going to choose you if your actions are genuine. I could give all the lip service to a certain god, but if I don’t live my life by the ideologies of that deity, said deity is not likely going to take me into his or her afterlife.
Continuing with example others have used, the farmer would pray to Chauntea for a good crop, but he could follow the ideologies of Sharess. This does not mean however that Chauntea will not listen to his prayers for a good season. I could not be a follower of Tymora, but she might still grant me luck if I ask for it. I think there is a distinction between lip service and praying to a certain deity in a given situation. I could be that farmer who believes in the ways of Sharess, but if I am having a bad crop, or I just need them to grow, I could be genuine in my prayers to Chauntea, and therefore she may grant my prayers.
I think that, in the Realms, people in fact do have a better idea of the kind of afterlife awaits them. Most elves know what Arvandor is like, for example. And as people have said, the afterlife you want isn’t the only thing that will determine which god to follow, but it can certainly be a factor, as I have said, because—as others have said--that deity’s realm will reflect that deity’s personality, ideologies, etc.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 17:10:36
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Part of Sharess' teaching is to spread pleasure, so it doesn't have to be all about drugs and booze after, it could just as easily be helping people in need or some other selfless act of causing someone pleasure. Also she's the Goddess of Sensation so trying new things in general would be encouraged. And some drugs would still be forbidden to Sharessians, aka anything that endangers the soul. Sharess encourages hedonism and utilitarianism, not stupidity and spiritual suicide. So that Aybssal Drug would be a no no, as would that agony drug.
So a Sharessian might have a party or feast, but the next day the left overs would be given to the poor.
I'd pick Sharess. Fun and far deeper and complex then others give her credit for. I mean she's one part Jesse Jane (pornstar), one part elvish Apsara (Zandilar), one part egyptian Che (Bast back when she was a war Goddess revolting against Imaskari repression), one part Garfield/beast cult (giant tabby cat Fediliadae), formerly a God of Warfare, Nomads, and who knows what else and current Goddess of Cats, Lust, Sensation, Brothels, and hedonism.
Complex and rich history. |
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Who is your patron deity?
