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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 14 May 2013 : 16:55:04
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Did the snake God die in 4e
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 17:19:24
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No.
To avoid unnecessary redundancy, they even added a 37th serpent god to the pantheon - Zehir
I understand in 5e we will have additional 657 serpent gods. We will also find out all non-serpent gods were really all the same being (who just so happens to be yet another serpent god).
General design rule of thumb: Try not to think too hard - just add shadow, scales, and/or tentacles to everything and call it a day. Copying other stories, myths, novels, legends, settings, and folklore also saves a lot work, and leaves more time for things like kickboxing (just a random example, mind you).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 May 2013 17:20:48 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 17:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No.
To avoid unnecessary redundancy, they even added a 37th serpent god to the pantheon - Zehir
I understand in 5e we will have additional 657 serpent gods. We will also find out all non-serpent gods were really all the same being (who just so happens to be yet another serpent god).
General design rule of thumb: Try not to think too hard - just add shadow, scales, and/or tentacles to everything and call it a day. Copying other stories, myths, novels, legends, settings, and folklore also saves a lot work, and leaves more time for things like kickboxing (just a random example, mind you).
In fairness, they did at least find time to squeeze Zehir into a novel and a Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 18:04:09
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Right.
But there is still the podcasts in which several members of the team point out how they reduced the number of FR gods (amongst other things) to "avoid unnecessary redundancy". Their words, not mine.
So while doing an... amazing... job of that, they added yet another serpent deity to a setting that already had way too many serpent deities (most of whom were already aspects/shards of the eldest of the group, the 'World Serpent').
Note also that Asmodeus is frequently referred to as 'the old serpent', and this aspect was even covered in the final print issue of Dragon (IIRC, Vecna made some sort of deal with 'the serpent', and the secret was that this was Asmodeus all along). Now, FR always had Asmodeus - in a sort-of sideways manner via the planes - but now he is a 'big bad' of the setting, which means we get ANOTHER 'serpent'.
I editted this post - there was enough snarkiness in my last one to cover me for the next week.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rhymn
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2013 : 22:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
Did the snake God die in 4e
No, but not to worry, he'll certainly be killed off in 5e.
Rumor has it that they're going to resurrect Mystra, kill her again, then have all the other gods spontaneously implode.  |
Mystra Lives |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 00:21:19
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I recall Set - along with all the other Mulhorgyptian deities - wasn't killed off but only transferred (exiled) to the nether Realms of Abeir.
[Edit]
Not unlike, it is said, how the powers of the Aztec pantheon arrived "in exile" on our world. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 May 2013 00:24:50 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 00:25:43
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| No deity dies, some just become remote. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 01:46:36
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| I seem to recall Zehir being added by accident... something about a miscommunication with the NWN2 team during the 4E FR development process? I may be remembering incorrectly, but that's how I recall Zehir ending up in the FR pantheon. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 01:53:08
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| But video games aren't canon why would it matter what was in them? |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 01:56:24
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| Neverwinter is |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 02:24:39
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Alright, I did a google search to see if I was having a massive brain fart. Apparently, I'm not. Although I can't find an official reference, it seems other people were discussing it as a screw up involving NWN 2: The Storm of Zehir. Zehir was supposed to be another deity involving the Yaun-ti, but they couldn't find it listed so they used Zehir from the 4E Core setting. Links here and here.
So, apparently I'm not 100% mistaken, or at least I'm not the only one! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 02:47:18
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| I could be mistaken, but I don't think any of the Bioware stuff or NWN is considered official canon ... in plain terms that means Wizbro can choose to ignore video game content as if it never happened. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 02:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I could be mistaken, but I don't think any of the Bioware stuff or NWN is considered official canon ... in plain terms that means Wizbro can choose to ignore video game content as if it never happened.
I think they can, but I don't think they -do-. Besides, it's the only explanation I've seen or heard as to how and why a core 4E deity ended up in the Realms. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Alright, I did a google search to see if I was having a massive brain fart. Apparently, I'm not. Although I can't find an official reference, it seems other people were discussing it as a screw up involving NWN 2: The Storm of Zehir. Zehir was supposed to be another deity involving the Yaun-ti, but they couldn't find it listed so they used Zehir from the 4E Core setting. Links here and here.
I've seen sfdragon saying the same thing here unless I am mistaken. The problem for me is, you have just presented all of the evidence I have ever seen. The plot to the game is that Zehir is starting to build his power base in the Realms and trying to make himself the king of the hill amongst the serpent gods. That's why I don't see how it could be a mistake. I have to imagine someone somewhere would've been "oh, wait, that guy doesn't exist in the Realms" before the game was done at which point some dialogue changes would've fixed everything. So, I don't buy the "we made a whole game's plot by mistake" reasoning without something else to back it up.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I could be mistaken, but I don't think any of the Bioware stuff or NWN is considered official canon ... in plain terms that means Wizbro can choose to ignore video game content as if it never happened.
I know I have seen a quote here somewhere that is essentially "if it says Forgotten Realms it's canon". That aside, Zehir was used in Venom In Her Veins so it's a moot point now. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 03:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I could be mistaken, but I don't think any of the Bioware stuff or NWN is considered official canon ... in plain terms that means Wizbro can choose to ignore video game content as if it never happened.
Undrentide was marked on one of the maps in Grand History. And the Wailing Death is apparently canon now, given it's reference in Grand History, under the 1372 DR entry. I don't recall there being an entry for Hordes of the Underdark. And I remember Brian James suggesting that may be due to the ending of the expansion being difficult to canonise. Much like the events of the older Baldur's Gate CRPGs, which we also difficult to canonise.
In other words, parts of these games have been included in canon, while others haven't. The Bhaalspawn, for example, and those events I mentioned above from Neverwinter Nights.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 04:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Alright, I did a google search to see if I was having a massive brain fart. Apparently, I'm not. Although I can't find an official reference, it seems other people were discussing it as a screw up involving NWN 2: The Storm of Zehir. Zehir was supposed to be another deity involving the Yaun-ti, but they couldn't find it listed so they used Zehir from the 4E Core setting. Links here and here.
I've seen sfdragon saying the same thing here unless I am mistaken. The problem for me is, you have just presented all of the evidence I have ever seen. The plot to the game is that Zehir is starting to build his power base in the Realms and trying to make himself the king of the hill amongst the serpent gods. That's why I don't see how it could be a mistake. I have to imagine someone somewhere would've been "oh, wait, that guy doesn't exist in the Realms" before the game was done at which point some dialogue changes would've fixed everything. So, I don't buy the "we made a whole game's plot by mistake" reasoning without something else to back it up.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I could be mistaken, but I don't think any of the Bioware stuff or NWN is considered official canon ... in plain terms that means Wizbro can choose to ignore video game content as if it never happened.
I know I have seen a quote here somewhere that is essentially "if it says Forgotten Realms it's canon". That aside, Zehir was used in Venom In Her Veins so it's a moot point now.
I can't speak from personal experience as I haven't played the game. However, what you outline does make some sense. That being said... why and how did a 4E core deity called Zehir get into the Realms?
Frankly, I'm just ignoring him as if he never existed.
EDIT: I just want to echo what Sage wrote. Although I don't believe WotC is required to treat the video games as canon, they have done so in the past. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 15 May 2013 04:18:14 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 18:50:13
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| Zehir was not in the final turnover draft of the 4E FRCG, so it was snuck in by an editor sometime after. I'd guess Zehir was included because of a mixup in communication that led to Obsidian Entertainment using Zehir in their Neverwinter Nights expansion. A mistake that would never happen if they had a dedicated Realms expert keeping an eye on things. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 20:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Much like the events of the older Baldur's Gate CRPGs, which we also difficult to canonise.
AFAIK if a game has novels the novels are canon, while the games are not.
Not sure about games without novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I recall Set - along with all the other Mulhorgyptian deities - wasn't killed off but only transferred (exiled) to the nether Realms of Abeir.
Which should have actually saved Sseth's but, as Set was slowly devouring him.
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Edited by - Mirtek on 15 May 2013 20:18:23 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2013 : 21:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Zehir was not in the final turnover draft of the 4E FRCG, so it was snuck in by an editor sometime after. I'd guess Zehir was included because of a mixup in communication that led to Obsidian Entertainment using Zehir in their Neverwinter Nights expansion. A mistake that would never happen if they had a dedicated Realms expert keeping an eye on things.
from what I understand is that obsidian was using Ssett in that game but was told they could not because ssett was not in the 4e book.
someone goofed, whether it was Obsidian, atari or wotc is up to debate.
Zehir is an interloper and needs to be given the boot. Return the World serpent.
looks to the left then to the right.
but there is one thing, we all know the truth, Zehir is in truth Bhaal.......
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 03:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Much like the events of the older Baldur's Gate CRPGs, which we also difficult to canonise.
AFAIK if a game has novels the novels are canon, while the games are not.
Not sure about games without novels.
The novels are canon -- so says WotC and the authors of the novels.
And, of course, the games cannot be considered FR canon, as the author, Drew Karpyshyn says, "because of their multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered 'official' in the FR world." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 03:50:27
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| video games, the dragonlance of faerun. |
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did ssett die in 4e
