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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 01:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I strongly disagree. All things are relative, including pleasure and pain.
Lets take you're favorite food. Whatever it is that you've eaten that tastes best. Now, imagine that's all you've ever eaten in your life, never had anything else.
You wouldn't be able to appreciate just how good it is unless you have something to compare it to.
Pleasure and pain exist relative to one another. Without that comparison, they're just sensations.
That's a poor analogy. Assume that I like pizza and steak, but hate broccoli. If all I've eaten all my life is pizza, and someone gives me a steak - I will still enjoy it. I can compare how much I enjoy pizza to steak, as they are two completely different desirable foods. I don't need to have the displeasure of eating the broccoli to truly enjoy either of them.
In fact, eating the broccoli wouldn't tell me anything, aside from the fact that I hate broccoli. I wouldn't eat it, and then suddenly realize, "Oh, how fortunate am I to have pizza and steak?!"
You can have both different types and degrees of pleasure. That is all you need to make a comparison. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 01:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I strongly disagree. All things are relative, including pleasure and pain.
Lets take you're favorite food. Whatever it is that you've eaten that tastes best. Now, imagine that's all you've ever eaten in your life, never had anything else.
You wouldn't be able to appreciate just how good it is unless you have something to compare it to.
Pleasure and pain exist relative to one another. Without that comparison, they're just sensations.
If you see the universe as black vs. white, good vs. evil, pleasure vs. pain, and etc. perhaps you should instead study physics a bit. 
As we know it now, there are no "forces" in the Universe other than strong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravitation and electromagnetism...and none of these truly work in opposition to each other. Read up a bit on perturbation theory too...good stuff there.
Now, in the D&D universe...sure, there are opposites; but that universe still exists within the bounds of what we can relate to (that being physics) and so even in D&D the true powers of the universe are not so much "forces" as they are views.
Views are of course going to have opposites...but true forces of nature do not.
We simply "are" as we are...I have no need to feel pain to feel pleasure, none at all since my brain is designed to feel pleasure when pleasure comes to me. I can exist an entire lifetime never knowing a negative thing and be happier than happy. The same would be true of D&D since those in the higher planes are not going to know pain...but pleasure.
Think of it simply, so that you may simply think. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 02:17:03
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I think the only true "boring" afterlife would be the Wall. Boredom doesn't necessarily apply to the afterlife. You are basically a brick for eternity. Perhaps there are limits in the afterlife (and that may vary depending on the realm), but I agree with AI.
If you -want- to do the same thing for eternity, such as dance and sing, then do it, but you wouldn't be forced to. As I said before, you can have goals in the afterlife, you can strive for achievements. As I said about an Oghmanite, they desire to acquire knowledge, and in the afterlife, they will have access to more knowledge. Most good-aligned deities do not make you their slave. Lathander wouldn't expect me to hold his chalice for him or polish his shoes. You're free to live your afterlife. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 04:20:41
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| I think we've wandered pretty far from the original topic, by this point... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 12:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the only true "boring" afterlife would be the Wall. Boredom doesn't necessarily apply to the afterlife. You are basically a brick for eternity. Perhaps there are limits in the afterlife (and that may vary depending on the realm), but I agree with AI.
If you -want- to do the same thing for eternity, such as dance and sing, then do it, but you wouldn't be forced to. As I said before, you can have goals in the afterlife, you can strive for achievements. As I said about an Oghmanite, they desire to acquire knowledge, and in the afterlife, they will have access to more knowledge. Most good-aligned deities do not make you their slave. Lathander wouldn't expect me to hold his chalice for him or polish his shoes. You're free to live your afterlife.
My point is: the number of things you can do is limited, the amount of time you have to do them is not. Eventually, every possible activity will get dull. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 13:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the only true "boring" afterlife would be the Wall. Boredom doesn't necessarily apply to the afterlife. You are basically a brick for eternity. Perhaps there are limits in the afterlife (and that may vary depending on the realm), but I agree with AI.
If you -want- to do the same thing for eternity, such as dance and sing, then do it, but you wouldn't be forced to. As I said before, you can have goals in the afterlife, you can strive for achievements. As I said about an Oghmanite, they desire to acquire knowledge, and in the afterlife, they will have access to more knowledge. Most good-aligned deities do not make you their slave. Lathander wouldn't expect me to hold his chalice for him or polish his shoes. You're free to live your afterlife.
My point is: the number of things you can do is limited, the amount of time you have to do them is not. Eventually, every possible activity will get dull.
The number of things our mortal minds can think of is finite...but the Multi-Verse is INfinite...and so really, you can't run out of things to do.
That is one reason I chose Shaundakul...I can explore forever more. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 14:28:23
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I don't know if the number of activities that differ enough from each other to give the feeling of 'new' is finite or not (not to mention that you have to consider that there are some categories of activities you don't enjoy and that can therefore be removed from the 'list').
However, since you can't do what you can't think of, the number of things you're able to do is finite. Dunno, the thought of living eternally always leads me to conclude that some day one will have experienced everything s(he) can and will grow tired of existence.
Even exploring places will get to that point, eventually. The Multiverse may be infinite, but the number of planes in it is not (AFAIK), and single planes -even infinite ones- are characterized by recurring features. For this reason I guess that exploring infinitely will give you the feeling of 'already seen'. Not sure tho, I may very well be wrong... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Mar 2013 14:48:00 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1602 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 15:38:08
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God. In the FR, which deity would most closely reflect my faith? Well, I see some elements I agree with in the Lathander, Ilmater, Tyr, Torm, and even in Sune's creed.
As for my characters, it depends on their background. I enjoy hero games, so they usually follow good deities, like the elven pantheon deities. But I have a PC who is a CG follower of Tempus. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 20:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the only true "boring" afterlife would be the Wall. Boredom doesn't necessarily apply to the afterlife. You are basically a brick for eternity. Perhaps there are limits in the afterlife (and that may vary depending on the realm), but I agree with AI.
If you -want- to do the same thing for eternity, such as dance and sing, then do it, but you wouldn't be forced to. As I said before, you can have goals in the afterlife, you can strive for achievements. As I said about an Oghmanite, they desire to acquire knowledge, and in the afterlife, they will have access to more knowledge. Most good-aligned deities do not make you their slave. Lathander wouldn't expect me to hold his chalice for him or polish his shoes. You're free to live your afterlife.
My point is: the number of things you can do is limited, the amount of time you have to do them is not. Eventually, every possible activity will get dull.
But "dull" and "boredom" don't necessarily apply to the afterlife. It is a living feeling/emotion, if you will. There are probably exceptions, yes, which is why I used the example of the Wall, in which you're like a brick. But most followers would want to be with their god. It doesn't get dull. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 20:47:56
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| Wow this thread is alive :) I still haven't figured out my patron deity though. Been reading on and off in "Faiths & Avatars" but haven't come to a conclusion yet. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 21:36:06
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Interesting discussion here. On one hand we have folks who apparently want to scratch, bite, and stab their way to the "top" of the pile of BBEG's and "do what I want!" In other words, these are the folks who don't think they should have to take crap from anyone, and don't care who they step on along their path. Pretty immoral/"ebil" ideology to begin with- looks like they'd end up in the Hells regardless....
On the other hand, we have those who simply want to enjoy their hard-earned eternity of frolicking, pursuing lofty good goals, etc. We seem to have two opposite view of what makes an afterlife enjoyable. One is an eternal struggle for "power and supremacy", the other is "I EARNED it, so I'm going to ENJOY it!" Neither is necessarily "right", but one seems to be FAR more inclined toward causing/suffering pain and disillusionment, disappointment, and loss. Honestly, guys- take a GOOD, HARD look at what you've set as your goals, and then ask if there is any chance REALISTICALLY of doing what you claim you would. As opposed to this macho-bravado speak of "I WOULD do this because I COULD!" No, more than likely, you couldn't- unless you were INCREDIBLY powerful and cunning and talented to begin with- IN LIFE! And I seriously doubt ANY of us here is/would be good enough at playing those games to achieve any real power.... Just a thought from a different perspective. Is ANY of us here REALLY so exceptional that we could have a (pardon the pun, but it fits!) chance in the Hells of getting to that point? Yeah- RIIIGGGHHTT.....
Edited for spell.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 07 Mar 2013 21:58:07 |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 21:42:43
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Well, I think eternity would be a nice thing. I feel that the days are already way too short. There simply isn't enough time in a day to do all the things I like to do; too many hobbies, and work and family besides. Maybe I'm not very good at prioritizing - but with work and family taking up most space, there's so little left for: playing RPGs, playing computer games, fiddling around with Photoshop and Campaign Cartographer, writing short stories and long stories, keep in touch with friends, practice the guitar, compose music, blog, listening to music, reading books, reading magazines, reading game sourcebooks, reading web forums, maintaining a web forum, and that's just off the top of my head.
Maybe I should go for a jack-of-all-trades kind of deity. Is there a bard-specific deity (I can't think of one)? One with which I can pursue all my interests for an eternity or two? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 00:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the only true "boring" afterlife would be the Wall. Boredom doesn't necessarily apply to the afterlife. You are basically a brick for eternity. Perhaps there are limits in the afterlife (and that may vary depending on the realm), but I agree with AI.
If you -want- to do the same thing for eternity, such as dance and sing, then do it, but you wouldn't be forced to. As I said before, you can have goals in the afterlife, you can strive for achievements. As I said about an Oghmanite, they desire to acquire knowledge, and in the afterlife, they will have access to more knowledge. Most good-aligned deities do not make you their slave. Lathander wouldn't expect me to hold his chalice for him or polish his shoes. You're free to live your afterlife.
My point is: the number of things you can do is limited, the amount of time you have to do them is not. Eventually, every possible activity will get dull.
But "dull" and "boredom" don't necessarily apply to the afterlife. It is a living feeling/emotion, if you will. There are probably exceptions, yes, which is why I used the example of the Wall, in which you're like a brick. But most followers would want to be with their god. It doesn't get dull.
Well, outsiders are pretty 'concrete' in D&D (being the result of mortal ideas, concepts, emotions and so on) and they do get bored, so I guess petitioners can too.
The point is not who you spend your time with. Of course it'd be cool to have an eternity to spend with your loved ones and with your deity (assuming it's the kind of deity who goes for a 'you are my ally' kind of relation opposed to 'you are my servant' ), but when you have an eternity to ''live'', I cannot help but feel like that the day when you will have massively experienced everything existence offers and get tired of existence, will eventually come.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 10:58:15
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Nobanion.
Torm, Ilmater or Bane, they are soooooo mainstream. |
-The black knight is invincible!
- You’re a looney. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 14:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if you're not near this mountain?
You mean if the place with the huge mountain I'm planning to erect my empire at is far from where I "live"? That's what teleportation is for, right?
quote:
And while we're at it, why do you prefer the idea of an eternity of no options at all, and plenty of agony, as opposed to having few limitations and plenty of options?
I fail to see why I don't have any options, when as I mentioned, I could do almost anything I want without worrying about offending any gods.
Plenty of agony? Why is that, when I could do the things that would bring me most joy? Joy and pleasure are the province of Sharess, but would she allow me to deprive some people of pleasure who are faithful to her but who in one way or another have done me wrong and whom I'd like see severely punished? Revenge. Now a god has that as his portfolio. But while it may bring me satisfaction, I wouldn't live all my life planning revenge. You see, the gods themselves are limited. They cannot act outside their portfolios. They are always in a box. And I hate to be in a box. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 16:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if you're not near this mountain?
You mean if the place with the huge mountain I'm planning to erect my empire at is far from where I "live"? That's what teleportation is for, right?
quote:
And while we're at it, why do you prefer the idea of an eternity of no options at all, and plenty of agony, as opposed to having few limitations and plenty of options?
I fail to see why I don't have any options, when as I mentioned, I could do almost anything I want without worrying about offending any gods.
Plenty of agony? Why is that, when I could do the things that would bring me most joy? Joy and pleasure are the province of Sharess, but would she allow me to deprive some people of pleasure who are faithful to her but who in one way or another have done me wrong and whom I'd like see severely punished? Revenge. Now a god has that as his portfolio. But while it may bring me satisfaction, I wouldn't live all my life planning revenge. You see, the gods themselves are limited. They cannot act outside their portfolios. They are always in a box. And I hate to be in a box.
You said you wouldn't follow a god because you'd have limitations. If you don't follow a god, you wind up in the Wall. If you're in the Wall, you can't do anything and you are most certainly not enjoying yourself.
So, rather than accept any form of limitation in exchange for a great amount of freedom, you're choosing to sacrifice all freedom to be extremely limited. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 16:41:44
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| You don't necessarily end up on the wall if you don't "follow" a god. You have to be one of the very rare breed that can't be claimed by a god. Netherese Arcanists who denounced following the gods could be claimed by Mystril because she's magic, for example. To be REALLY faithless is even more rare. Almost no one in the Realms meets that description, if I remember Ed's statements correctly. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 16:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if you're not near this mountain?
You mean if the place with the huge mountain I'm planning to erect my empire at is far from where I "live"? That's what teleportation is for, right?
quote:
And while we're at it, why do you prefer the idea of an eternity of no options at all, and plenty of agony, as opposed to having few limitations and plenty of options?
I fail to see why I don't have any options, when as I mentioned, I could do almost anything I want without worrying about offending any gods.
Plenty of agony? Why is that, when I could do the things that would bring me most joy? Joy and pleasure are the province of Sharess, but would she allow me to deprive some people of pleasure who are faithful to her but who in one way or another have done me wrong and whom I'd like see severely punished? Revenge. Now a god has that as his portfolio. But while it may bring me satisfaction, I wouldn't live all my life planning revenge. You see, the gods themselves are limited. They cannot act outside their portfolios. They are always in a box. And I hate to be in a box.
You said you wouldn't follow a god because you'd have limitations. If you don't follow a god, you wind up in the Wall. If you're in the Wall, you can't do anything and you are most certainly not enjoying yourself.
So, rather than accept any form of limitation in exchange for a great amount of freedom, you're choosing to sacrifice all freedom to be extremely limited.
Apparently, you haven't read all my replies to Aldrick.
I wouldn't be in the Wall because I do not intend to die. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 17:00:49
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[/quote]Apparently, you haven't read all my replies to Aldrick.
I wouldn't be in the Wall because I do not intend to die.
[/quote]
As opposed to all the people in the Wall because they DO intend to die?  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 17:05:20
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Either that or they're so pathetic that they didn't have the means to prolong their existence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 17:10:20
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We've got about 25000 years of FR, and about a dozen we know of who are more than 1000 years old... as a Sigil native would tell you:
Odds are you'll be makin' your way to the dead book sooner than you think, cutter. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 17:15:32
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Who the hell cares what the native of a pathetic prison cell would say?
I say live forever! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 17:40:58
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| Prison cell? The City of Doors? That makes no sense lol - Here's our prison, it only has like a billion ways to escape :D |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2013 : 18:10:32
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Tsk tsk. You missed the sarcasm there. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 05:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
You don't necessarily end up on the wall if you don't "follow" a god. You have to be one of the very rare breed that can't be claimed by a god. Netherese Arcanists who denounced following the gods could be claimed by Mystril because she's magic, for example. To be REALLY faithless is even more rare. Almost no one in the Realms meets that description, if I remember Ed's statements correctly.
This is very true, and I've said something similar. Even if you don't have a "patron" deity, when you die, you are chosen by the one who best fits your ideology. Deities know you, after all.
@Dennis: you don't intend to die, but almost everyone else in the Realms will, so you'll be very lonely by the end. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 05:22:40
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Well, I'll impart my knowledge on immortality and nigh-invincibility to a selected few to keep me "company." And who knows, I might also be able to unearth the secret to creating life out of nothing . . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 05:24:06
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| Essentially making yourself a god? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 05:34:54
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Nah, gods are overrated. And as I said, they're always bound their respective portfolios. Even Ao acts for the sake of Balance. I, on the other hand, act according to . . . well, what I want. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 08:58:13
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| Yet the abilities you describe are that of a god's, and immortal humans are kind of overrated too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2013 : 09:17:17
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The Terraseer, Larloch, and outside FR--Ashen-Shugar, Pug, Nagash, Egrimm van Horstmann, Urza . . . They are beings whose powers dwarf some of FR gods, but are definitely not gods. True, immortal humans are overrated, thanks to a plethora of vampire literature that plagues this generation. But why would I choose an overrated something that I don't like over that that I do? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Topic |
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Who is your patron deity?
