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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 23:29:46
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I guess it's a matter of perspective and tastes.
Fact is, I'm kinda underwhelmed when I look at any of the possible afterlives: whatever you end up doing (even trying to do EVERY possible thing in the Multiverse), after a certain (very large, I guess) amount of time you'll end up having experienced everything there's to do (the amount of activities available being limited) and at that point every option would feel dull. It'd be the same thing if people only got to live long enough to experience everything the world has to offer, and then (when they'd get tired of existence) simply cease to exist.
Point is: anything will eventually get boring if it lasts an eternity. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 00:16:58
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Well, for a follower, there is little greater than being among your deity, and in a way being one with him/her, even if it's not literal. And hopefully (though I realize this may not always be the case) you'd be with your loved ones. In a way, the afterlives are just alternate forms of societies. The "striving for greatness" in a good-aligned deity's realm (like Oghma's House of Knowledge, for example), is different than say, the Hells. In the House of Knowledge, there is an endless supply of, well, knowledge. You are not nearly as limited as you are the mortal plane, because you have the knowledge of the cosmos (though there probably is some limitation once mortal spirits are privy to). A scholar could achieve greatness by expanding his knowledge. It is not the same as achieving fame and fortune (perhaps that happens in Wakeen's realm), or besting demons, but for a scholar, it's a dream come true.
And in the Green Fields, in the Twilight Wars, we saw Jak be reunited with his family, and they were even eating! And in E's realm, I don't think her followers just danced and sang all the time--though you could if you wanted. It's like living, except not. Boredom would be a form of punishment, and I don't think a good-aligned deity would have a boring realm, but boredom in the afterlife might not mean the same thing as it does here. "Well, guess I've skipped through every meadow there is up here. I'm bored now." No, I don't think that's the way a soul would like at it. They don't become mindless spirits that just drift around. They interact with other souls. There is life in afterlife. If you're an elf, you want to go to Arvandor. You're an Eilistraeen, you want to go to Nidavellir/Svartalfheim (though if you're a Lolthite you don't necessarily want to go to her realm, especially if you're male). You're a dwarf, you want to go the Halls of Moradin. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 00:33:43
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I can't imagine how anyone could think going to Baator would be a good idea. The only good news is that you do effectively die, just like in the real world. You lose everything that makes you who you are, your consciousness, and your identity. So it's really no longer you who is suffering, but a twisted mockery of what you once were.
It's like looking at someone who is brain dead, and pretending that they're still alive. Sure, their body still might be there, but everything that made them who they were - their memories, their identity, their consciousness - it's gone.
I frankly think you're making the same mistake as Dennis, CoA. You're making the assumption that we'd easily be able to become beings of power. None of that is certain, and you'd always be a slave to someone else unless you defeated Asmodeus.
What is the point of having all that power, when someone else above you in the hierarchy owns you?
Your idea is actually worse than Dennis' though. At least he maintains his identity, and if he fails he ends up in the Wall. That's a better alternative.
I mean, if you're goal is power, why work to achieve it and then waste it serving someone else rather than yourself? Not to mention that your day-to-day existence would be torturous.
Personally, I basically see every deity just like devils. They all want your soul, and somebody somewhere is going to get it. Sure, you could sell it to Baator, and have the very essence of who you are stripped from you. That makes you effectively dead, making all motivations irrelevant. (There is no point to taking an afterlife, if you're basically going to die anyway. Might as well go to the Wall.)
But me, I see the advantage of Brightwater. I don't want to serve the gods, but I know I can't elevate myself above them. So, I find the happy middle ground. A deity that exist solely to serve my pleasures, and make me happy and joyful. If I'm not happy, then not only is she not happy - she's not doing her job.
As a result, I'm effectively free of tyranny of the gods. Also, every second of my afterlife would be inherently pure bliss that is unimaginable by a mortal mind. Yes, some people may say, "That'll get sooo boring!" But they fail to see the logical flaw. If something is boring it is no longer enjoyable, and if it isn't enjoyable, it isn't pleasurable. This makes it impossible.
Sure, from our current perspective Brightwater would be just as bad as every other afterlife. Forever is well... forever. And if you do something long enough it's going to be boring as hell. However, this perspective is impossible once you've transitioned into Brightwater.
We can debate on how this is accomplished, but we know it isn't through means that fundamentally strip you of who you are as that would be evil.
However, getting bored while in Brightwater is like saying 2+2 = 9.
So, effectively, I see choosing Brightwater as my afterlife destination as cheating. I'm overcoming the overwhelming bulk of issues not only faced in life, but faced by serving other deities and ending up in their afterlives.
This is why Brightwater is the best choice, out of all the possible options. Well, unless you're a masochist. If that's the case, then Brightwater would be pure hell. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 00:37:12
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That opens up a whole nother can of worms and ties into my issues with the racial divisions of gods and the after life. It's essentially racism as a game mechanic, the divine equivalent of separate but equal.
Say what you want about Asmodeus, but he is equal opportunity.
Edit: In response to CD, of course. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 06 Mar 2013 00:48:49 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 00:42:23
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quote:
I frankly think you're making the same mistake as Dennis, CoA. You're making the assumption that we'd easily be able to become beings of power. None of that is certain, and you'd always be a slave to someone else unless you defeated Asmodeus.
See, it's not easy. That's my point. It's hard work. It's thousands of years of hard work. It's earned through merit.
I don't want an afterlife where everything is handed to me. I want an afterlife where I have to fight and scratch and claw and scheme to earn my share. Because otherwise, it's meaningless.
As for being someone's slave, well. End of the day, we're all slaves. Devils are just more honest about it. And I can think of worse fates than sitting beside the throne. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 01:04:29
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quote:
As for being someone's slave, well. End of the day, we're all slaves. Devils are just more honest about it.
I could somehow agree with you if we were talking about the RW (and even then, there is still the possibility of changing this), but in fantasy individuals can 'realistically' fight to achieve and keep their freedom and be victorious.
quote:
And I can think of worse fates than sitting beside the throne.
Using your analogy, I don't think that when/if you get to become one of Asmodeus' slaves you'll be 'sitting beside the throne', but that you'll likely end up carrying his footrest on your back.
About the not earned afterlives, it's not true IMO. If you actually chose to follow the philosophy of life of some good-neutral deity, you'd be working hard to make the world better for everyone, gathering up knowledge, promoting progress and so on, i.e.: earning whatever you get after death. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Mar 2013 01:05:56 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 01:29:27
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| My point is, ultimately, the afterlife presented in Baator just sounds more fun to me than any other, and that ultimately the potential rewards are greater. Sure, there's risks, but life, even an afterlife without risks is just plain unappealing to me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 02:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
I frankly think you're making the same mistake as Dennis, CoA. You're making the assumption that we'd easily be able to become beings of power. None of that is certain, and you'd always be a slave to someone else unless you defeated Asmodeus.
See, it's not easy. That's my point. It's hard work. It's thousands of years of hard work. It's earned through merit.
I don't want an afterlife where everything is handed to me. I want an afterlife where I have to fight and scratch and claw and scheme to earn my share. Because otherwise, it's meaningless.
As for being someone's slave, well. End of the day, we're all slaves. Devils are just more honest about it. And I can think of worse fates than sitting beside the throne.
I agree, at the end of the day in the Realms everyone is effectively a slave. That's precisely why I choose Brightwater as my afterlife destination. The place has freedom and individuality inherently built into it, and I'm serving a goddess who wants me to be happy and joyful. In order for her to ensure that I am happy and joyful she has to serve me to some degree, not the other way around.
This reduces the slavery aspect of things to the point where it's irrelevant. Stripping me of my freedom or individuality would be inherently against the aims of either Sharess or Lliira. They would see and treat me as an equal, not as a lesser servant.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Sure, there's risks, but life, even an afterlife without risks is just plain unappealing to me.
I can understand this point of view. However, I don't see how it is superior to what Dennis suggested. At least you'd be free. When you go to Baator, you're guaranteed to be a slave. The only way to escape slavery is to become the top tyrant, which means you have to whack Asmodeus.
If you have that much ambition, it makes more sense to do what Dennis suggested. You can still defeat Asmodeus, but without the BS hoops you'd have to jump through as a result of the restrictions of being a devil.
Frankly, with a bit of modification Dennis' goals and my goals aren't that opposed. For example, someone could worship Lliira and dedicate themselves ending all tyranny in the Realms. Absolute freedom for everyone, the abolishment of all nobility - the complete equalization of all people under the law.
That hasn't even happened in the real world, and I think it would be more difficult than defeating Asmodeus. Because once you're done on Toril, you can move to other prime worlds... or even to the planes themselves.
You could pull the same move as Manshoon and create tons of clones which you store all over the place. This isn't evil, and it doesn't have the pitfalls of becoming a lich and some of the other methods of immortality.
Then you're faced with tons of challenges and difficulty... thousands and thousands of years of work. Even, potentially, a direct challenge against the gods themselves.
Frankly, to even realistically achieve your goals, you'd have to do the following as a minimum:
1. Shift entire cultures into alignment with your values.
2. Overthrow every noble and person who uses their power to elevate themselves above others.
3. Literally destroy every evil deity.
4. Literally destroy a chunk of neutral deities - especially the deities of war.
5. Align the remaining deities to your values, or destroy them as well. This means the gods themselves would have to regard mortals as their equals, thus ending the subservient nature of mortals to their gods.
6. Completely destroy the Abyss.
7. Completely destroy the Nine Hells.
8. Completely destroy the Barrens of Doom and Despair, and every other plane that creates or promotes evil - as a result, completely eradicating ALL EVIL from the multiverse.
9. Destroy a good chunk of neutral aligned planes as well, and maybe even some lawful good ones.
10. In essence, you've left the multiverse with the following alignments: Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral.
...and I may be missing some stuff, but yeah. You'd basically have to reorder the entire cosmos, and then create the proper values to hold on Toril at a minimum, but you could also spread your crusade to every planet and plane in existence in the multiverse.
So, if you're ambitious, then there is something to strive for - something even more difficult than working your way through the ranks of the Nine Hells.
In the end, you'd be willfully foregoing your rewards in the afterlife, to remain in the mortal world and safeguard what you've built. However, if you do die in your pursuit, because all of your clones get iced, you get your afterlife rewards in Brightwater. (Which would be massive, even if you failed.) |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 02:46:52
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See, the thing is, I believe Asmodeus is going to win, eventually. I believe that the Nine Hells will, in time, conquer the multiverse.
With that in mind, I would prefer to climb the ranks from the inside, learn from the masters, and when we've one, step in and take over.
Or not. Maybe being the #2 to Asmodeus isn't so bad. You don't have the target on your chest, then. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 03:03:06
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I just don't understand the point of wanting to achieve power at the cost of one's soul, and more importantly, one's IDENTITY. Identity is what makes us strive for our goals in the first place. Without our identity, we are literally NOTHING. It's not just an "abstract" idea that does not exist. The body looses nearly a pound at death- it's been speculated that this is the "soul" leaving. And this soul is worthless? A non-existant thing that can simply be bartered away for the sake of power that will mean nothing to the empty-minded husk left behind, without even the MEMORY of WHY it wanted power in the first place?! What about all the knowledge and power ALREADY gained before, that is simply tossed away in favor of what MIGHT be gained to achieve "more power"? Frankly, I can't even understand the kind of mentality that would even WANT to keep gaining more and more power indefinitely! (Define that as you will- power to me is not one's spell-level, or supernatural abilities, or what-have-you; power to me is simply knowledge, which can be gained in many ways.) At the end of the day, an eternity spent struggling (Most likely vainly, since no devil is going to want to promote a lesser who is THAT ambitious- it just means a greater threat to their OWN power!) and scheming for scraps of power to become "king of the hill" among devils, is probably the most pointless and impossible of afterlives to strive for.
Not for me, thanks! Give me an afterlife with a PURPOSE that is beyond my own petty whims or desires, that does something GOOD for the multiverse, and not just for myself. This is why I choose Eilistraee- I am a warrior at heart, but I also have a sense of love for beauty, life, and freedom, which is part of what she represents. Spending my eternity dancing under the moon and fighting against evil and cruelty wherever I find it sounds like the perfect afterlife to me! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 03:14:31
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quote:
"I have heard it said evil is nothing more than good's absence, as if evil was the darkness to good's light. A comforting thought, I imagine,for those seeking redemption, but, I tell you, put such thoughts from your mind. You need only peer into a demon's eyes to know evil is not some vacuum waiting for virtue to come and fill its emptiness. Evil is a force. It is an influence in the cosmos, an agency equal to or perhaps even greater than its antithesis. There are two sides in this eternal struggle, one light and the other dark. You might find evil's works reprehensible, yet to those whose hearts belong to corruption, good deeds are equally deplorable. Understand, there is no redemption, only treason against the side you were born to serve."
— Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells,
There's nothing petty about it. The pettiness is in keeping one's identity; a meager, transient thing with no value. One that I am more than willing to sacrifice to dedicate myself to a higher purpose- the highest of purposes. Saving the multiverse from the forces of good. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 03:18:07
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| Sune, Labelas Enoreth, Tymora, and Finder |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 04:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
"I have heard it said evil is nothing more than good's absence, as if evil was the darkness to good's light. A comforting thought, I imagine,for those seeking redemption, but, I tell you, put such thoughts from your mind. You need only peer into a demon's eyes to know evil is not some vacuum waiting for virtue to come and fill its emptiness. Evil is a force. It is an influence in the cosmos, an agency equal to or perhaps even greater than its antithesis. There are two sides in this eternal struggle, one light and the other dark. You might find evil's works reprehensible, yet to those whose hearts belong to corruption, good deeds are equally deplorable. Understand, there is no redemption, only treason against the side you were born to serve."
— Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells,
There's nothing petty about it. The pettiness is in keeping one's identity; a meager, transient thing with no value. One that I am more than willing to sacrifice to dedicate myself to a higher purpose- the highest of purposes. Saving the multiverse from the forces of good.
I actually agree with that quote from Asmodeus. In the D&D Universe he's 100% accurate. That's the reason the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and all naturally evil aligned planes (along with their inhabitants) have to be destroyed.
This is why I think Lliira is more of a natural enemy to Asmodeus and the Devils than any demon. She is the complete antithesis of everything Asmodeus stands for - she shares with the demons a desire of individuality, self-determination, and freedom from constraints. However, she lacks their weaknesses - belief in cooperation with others, a genuine desire for the common good, the ability to set aside selfish motivations. This is why the demons cannot defeat Asmodeus, because they are constantly at each others throats. They cannot set aside their own selfish motivations for the common good, nor do they have an innate desire for the common good or cooperation. They believe in freedom, individuality, and self-determination only in so far as they get it for themselves.
Asmodeus and the devils have to dominate through sheer force of will. They cannot appeal to any sense of solidarity because the same innate selfishness that is inborn in the demons also exists in the devils.
The Nine Hells may be a meritocracy, but the Darwinian natural selection that takes place does not grant to the individual at the top true power. It only appears that way to the slaves below. Asmodeus is chained - he's chained to a status quo he can never escape due to his very nature. The rigidity that creates the hierarchy stifles the dynamic and necessary changes necessary to propel the devils forward... it creates only stagnation.
It's a bit like the Sword of Damocles. The devils look up to Asmodeus and believe that he is a being of great power and authority, surrounded by everything they covet and desire. He is everything that they strive to be. Asmodeus, by his very nature, is compelled to play to the role. Yet, if anyone were to switch places with him they'd clearly see the sword that always hangs precariously over his head.
That sword represents every single other devil in existence. Precisely because of the hierarchy, precisely because of its rigidity, and precisely because of their nature they covet all that he holds. Some may scrape and bow, but those who seemingly serve so willingly are the most dangerous to him. Ultimately, all would betray him at a chance to take his place, because they believe in doing so they'd finally be free. No one else to stand over them, to command them, to beat them, to torture them - they call the shots.
Instead, what they find is that the very sword they used to kill Asmodeus now hangs over their head.
So, while it is true that the Nine Hells creates a meritocracy; it is only as good as the virtues it holds in highest regard. Ultimately, the one who has the most merit will be the one who can successfully hold and manage the status quo. There is no freedom for a devil; not even for Asmodeus. Every devil is a slave, and a slave can never wield true power. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 06 Mar 2013 04:39:39 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 06:18:21
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I think some people are missing a point about Brightwater (and other good-aligned planes). It's not like there's no ambition, competition and risk-taking in Brightwater. Do you think Waukeen would live in a place without ambition, competition and risk-taking? You don't have everything you could possibly want in Brightwater (again, that would a place without economy and trade... and well, it's impossible really - if Brightwater had everything in the multiverse, it would be the multiverse). You just have a whole damn lot, but you can always strive for more. You could try to become some kind of champion of freedom and liberate the whole multiverse (and since it's infinite you can keep doing it for eternity). Do you think Lliira is going to stop you? Or Sune, Tymora, Sharess or Waukeen? Would they fear you getting to the top? Of course not, they'd encourage you! That's the whole point! So if you want to relax you get to stay a day or a million in a great place. And if you're up to a challenge you can go try to smack a devil, play a trick on an archon or convince a modron to go rogue. Sounds like win-win to me.
Sure, you might want to fight for Baator (or Celestia, etc) instead. But if you really have the knack for it, you're much more likely to succeed in Brightwater. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 06 Mar 2013 06:29:04 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 07:07:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
"I have heard it said evil is nothing more than good's absence, as if evil was the darkness to good's light. A comforting thought, I imagine,for those seeking redemption, but, I tell you, put such thoughts from your mind. You need only peer into a demon's eyes to know evil is not some vacuum waiting for virtue to come and fill its emptiness. Evil is a force. It is an influence in the cosmos, an agency equal to or perhaps even greater than its antithesis. There are two sides in this eternal struggle, one light and the other dark. You might find evil's works reprehensible, yet to those whose hearts belong to corruption, good deeds are equally deplorable. Understand, there is no redemption, only treason against the side you were born to serve."
— Asmodeus, Lord of the Nine Hells,
There's nothing petty about it. The pettiness is in keeping one's identity; a meager, transient thing with no value. One that I am more than willing to sacrifice to dedicate myself to a higher purpose- the highest of purposes. Saving the multiverse from the forces of good.
I actually agree with that quote from Asmodeus. In the D&D Universe he's 100% accurate. That's the reason the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and all naturally evil aligned planes (along with their inhabitants) have to be destroyed.
This is why I think Lliira is more of a natural enemy to Asmodeus and the Devils than any demon. She is the complete antithesis of everything Asmodeus stands for - she shares with the demons a desire of individuality, self-determination, and freedom from constraints. However, she lacks their weaknesses - belief in cooperation with others, a genuine desire for the common good, the ability to set aside selfish motivations. This is why the demons cannot defeat Asmodeus, because they are constantly at each others throats. They cannot set aside their own selfish motivations for the common good, nor do they have an innate desire for the common good or cooperation. They believe in freedom, individuality, and self-determination only in so far as they get it for themselves.
Asmodeus and the devils have to dominate through sheer force of will. They cannot appeal to any sense of solidarity because the same innate selfishness that is inborn in the demons also exists in the devils.
The Nine Hells may be a meritocracy, but the Darwinian natural selection that takes place does not grant to the individual at the top true power. It only appears that way to the slaves below. Asmodeus is chained - he's chained to a status quo he can never escape due to his very nature. The rigidity that creates the hierarchy stifles the dynamic and necessary changes necessary to propel the devils forward... it creates only stagnation.
It's a bit like the Sword of Damocles. The devils look up to Asmodeus and believe that he is a being of great power and authority, surrounded by everything they covet and desire. He is everything that they strive to be. Asmodeus, by his very nature, is compelled to play to the role. Yet, if anyone were to switch places with him they'd clearly see the sword that always hangs precariously over his head.
That sword represents every single other devil in existence. Precisely because of the hierarchy, precisely because of its rigidity, and precisely because of their nature they covet all that he holds. Some may scrape and bow, but those who seemingly serve so willingly are the most dangerous to him. Ultimately, all would betray him at a chance to take his place, because they believe in doing so they'd finally be free. No one else to stand over them, to command them, to beat them, to torture them - they call the shots.
Instead, what they find is that the very sword they used to kill Asmodeus now hangs over their head.
So, while it is true that the Nine Hells creates a meritocracy; it is only as good as the virtues it holds in highest regard. Ultimately, the one who has the most merit will be the one who can successfully hold and manage the status quo. There is no freedom for a devil; not even for Asmodeus. Every devil is a slave, and a slave can never wield true power.
Change occurs when Asmodeus wills it, not before, not after. Progress is to be controlled, so that it happens at the most optimal pace- too fast and control will be lost. To slow, and enemies will overtake Baator's advantages. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 09:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
See, the thing is, I believe Asmodeus is going to win, eventually. I believe that the Nine Hells will, in time, conquer the multiverse.
With that in mind, I would prefer to climb the ranks from the inside, learn from the masters, and when we've one, step in and take over.
Or not. Maybe being the #2 to Asmodeus isn't so bad. You don't have the target on your chest, then.
Out of curiosity, what are you going to do once you have ''won'', except going ''buahahaha I'm 'ebil' and 'kewl' cause I conquered the world'' and becoming paranoid over the possibility of your rivals attempting to take your place? Assuming you managed to conquer the Multiverse and manipulate it until it fitted your view (or w/e you want to do), you'd be in the same situation you describe for the people who spend their afterlife in good/neutral planes. Your existence would have no purpose at that point and all the stuff you could do would get boring, really fast. Even in this optimistic scenario, all you'd have accomplished is prolonging the struggle phase of your existence (which for others is their mortal life, where they face challenges etc... as you do) for a loooong time.
This is why I think that it is kinda stupid to live only to gather moar and moar powah, when at the end of the day you are not even able to use it all, and find yourself in the same/worse situation as the ones who chose to simply cut their place in the Multiverse, forge their own way and enjoy their existence (and all of this isn't for free) since the beginning.
About evil and good being forces, that Asmodeus quote was just the typical phrase some BBEG would say to sound 'kewl' IMO. As I see it they're not something arcane or metaphysical, but only words used to define some kind of behaviour. Usually you call ''good'' someone whose goal and/or MO somehow improves the quality of other beings' lives, while you call ''evil'' someone who has no problem hurting other beings in order to achieve what he wants -often something that could be achieved by other means-, or someone whose goal simply is to make people's lives worse for the lulz (because this is the only reason I can find for such a behaviour. I mean, seriously, what do you get if some guy is having troubles somewhere in the Multiverse?). As you see, they're indeed defined each as the contrary of the other, and even the perception of such concepts can change depending on the point of view (in some cases someone who would normally be called evil, wouldn't see him/herself in such light, but he'd think that s(he) is on the right/good side). At the end of the day you have people who work to improve their condition on each ''side'' (barring the idiotic ones who act for 'the ebil' and try to screw other people all day long for the lulz), only with different MO.
Also, you have to consider that Baator, being it among the Outer Planes, actually is the manifestation of certain mortals ideas and behaviour. For this reason your 'big moving force' is nothing more than the by-product of things like tyrants' petty wishes for uber power at the expense of the others, sadistic pleasure in inflicting pain... and so on (same goes for differently 'aligned' planes, ofc). IMO, 'multiversal good' and 'evil' ultimately get down to be this concrete, the result of mortal behaviours that can be reduced to what I said above.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Mar 2013 15:31:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 14:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Your help [vs Shar] is most welcome. We accept all the help we can get. But mind you, be prepared for some grueling work. We're not just killing her, we're obliterating her that she would have no hope of getting back--ever. 
Obliterating the goddess of oblivion seems like a no-win proposal, like fighting against the god of war or killing the god of murder. True, in some ways it seems especially fitting and sort of theologically apropos ... yet on the face of things it also seems a pointlessly self-defeating paradox.
Remember how Cyric acquired the portfolio of Murder? Paradox has nothing to do with it, or so it appears. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 14:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why would I let myself be stuck in just one place and keep doing the same things over and over again when the whole Realmspace and beyond are easily within my reach and I could do almost anything that I want without worrying that I'd be offending some stupid divine entity?
I think you're right when it comes to most of the deities. Frankly, I think being made part of the wall and facing complete non-existence is preferable to most of the afterlives offered. Most of them, to one degree or another, has you living eternally under the thumb of one of the deities. No thank you.
The exception to this rule is Brightwater, and particularly either Sharess or Lliira. Since their love of freedom and individuality is part of what they are, it's not the same. It's less about serving them than serving yourself. Being forced to become a mindless lickspittle is the antithesis of freedom, and would undermine your happiness and joy (or at least my own). By their very nature they could not do this to me, as it would cause me suffering, and their very nature would compel them to remedy that.
There's no exception for me. In the end, it boils down to one thing: your fate depends solely on the fate of your patron. Ever wonder what happens to you should your patron gets killed by Cyric or any other deity who simply thinks she's a nuisance? The probability of gods targeting gods compared to gods meddling with mortals is virtually higher because they think what they would get out of it is higher as well.
Also, the afterlife is far too limited for my taste. You're stuck in your patron's little "kingdom," and if you're lucky, you may visit those of her allies. But how many are there in total, exactly? Too little space for someone who wants to see the bigger picture.
Lastly, and most importantly, in the afterlife, I could never do everything that I want to unless it gets the "approval" of my patron. Sure, a goddess of pleasure would not restrict me from doing things that would please me. But there's a limit to that. If for example, just for the heck of it, I want to blow up a mountain–a huge mountain–would Sharess allow me? Would any god do? I doubt that. True, being an insanely powerful "living" immortal has its limitations too. But they're nothing compared to those when you get stuck in a god's chamberp–er, home.
quote:
Sure, if you gave me the power of Larloch and the Srinshee combined, and I knew I could challenge greater deities themselves and win easily... and that no one could ever challenge me, and I could do whatever I wanted. Then yeah, living might be preferable to dying. The likelihood of me achieving that? Virtually impossible. The likelihood of me being ganked by someone in my pursuit of such lofty goals? Virtually 100% certain.
I have 100% confidence I could pull it off. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Mar 2013 14:44:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 15:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, and most importantly, in the afterlife, I could never do everything that I want to unless it gets the "approval" of my patron. Sure, a goddess of pleasure would not restrict me from doing things that would please me. But there's a limit to that. If for example, just for the heck of it, I want to blow up a mountain–a huge mountain–would Sharess allow me? Would any god do? I doubt that. True, being an insanely powerful "living" immortal has its limitations too. But they're nothing compared to those when you get stuck in a god's chamberp–er, home.
And how is this different from real life? You're not going to blow up a huge mountain without permission from the host government, lots of money for explosives, environmental permits, and more.
Why is it so limiting to think you might not be allowed to do something most people wouldn't want to do anyway, and that you can't do while alive, anyway? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 15:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, and most importantly, in the afterlife, I could never do everything that I want to unless it gets the "approval" of my patron. Sure, a goddess of pleasure would not restrict me from doing things that would please me. But there's a limit to that. If for example, just for the heck of it, I want to blow up a mountain–a huge mountain–would Sharess allow me? Would any god do? I doubt that. True, being an insanely powerful "living" immortal has its limitations too. But they're nothing compared to those when you get stuck in a god's chamberp–er, home.
And how is this different from real life? You're not going to blow up a huge mountain without permission from the host government, lots of money for explosives, environmental permits, and more.
Why is it so limiting to think you might not be allowed to do something most people wouldn't want to do anyway, and that you can't do while alive, anyway?
Because when I'd be in the Realms, I wouldn't just be "most people."
That example probably would need a little bit of explanation. So . . .
In an unpopulated area somewhere in the east lies a lush land, with a gigantic mountain in the very center of it. I want to build an empire there, an empire under my own name. The mountain serves no purpose to me and to the people, monsters, and all sorts of beings I plan to "invite." So I've decided to just blow it up and have some earth elementals clean the mess.
It's just an example, and I could surely think up more that would again emphasize the difference between the limitation in the afterlife and the limitation of the living.
Ultimately, it would all come to this: what you really want to do. If you're a masochist and cares about nothing else, then embrace Loviatar. If you take pleasure at anything (even those deemed stupid and shallow by others and even when you're doing the same thing over and over again), then rejoice in Sharess's bosoms. If you think love is a lie and has no hope whatsoever, then join Shar. If you just want to do do almost everything for as long as possible, then embrace immortality (but not divinity). |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Mar 2013 16:08:12 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 16:34:18
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quote:
Your existence would have no purpose at that point and all the stuff you could do would get boring, really fast. Even in this optimistic scenario, all you'd have accomplished is prolonging the struggle phase of your existence (which for others is their mortal life, where they face challenges etc... as you do) for a loooong time.
I'm honestly getting tired of repeating myself on this point; the struggle is the fun part. That's what I derive pleasure and enjoyment from. I want to prolong the struggle for as long as inhumanly possible.
As for "what do I do after I win", well, aside from the required time sitting on a throne of bones sipping the blood of my enemies out of the skull of one of the good-aligned gods(ebil enough for you?), the obvious answer is "whatever I want." Disregarding the tremendous amount of time it'll take to achieve the victory, once it's obtained the only thing to do is to enjoy it to it's fullest. The best part being that even though the war may be over, the conflict never ends, as you pointed out. There'll always be scheming underlings vying for power, so I'll always have the game to play.
Ultimately that's what I want out of an afterlife- endless conflict and struggle. Only the evil aligned afterlifes(and Warrior's Rest, admittedly) offer that.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 16:35:35
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Not that it makes much difference, but I doubt most gods would give a damn about whether you blow up that mountain. Lliira, for example, will only stop you from doing something if it aimed at the destruction of freedom and joy. Which you won't want to do, anyway, if you're infused with the very essence of whatever makes one cherish those things.
So, yeah, you're bound by the beliefs of your plane, and by extension, that of your gods. But it's not like the gods wouldn't be able to do whatever they please with you when you're a mortal anyway. As I said before, I think the only way to "get out" is to become an overgod (or something similarly removed from the nature of the planes). Being an extremely powerful outsider seems to me like a relatively good path for that goal if you're bent on it, especially an extremely powerful outsider from a chaotic good plane, where the gods and other denizens are least likely to try to stop you. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 06 Mar 2013 16:50:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 16:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Lastly, and most importantly, in the afterlife, I could never do everything that I want to unless it gets the "approval" of my patron. Sure, a goddess of pleasure would not restrict me from doing things that would please me. But there's a limit to that. If for example, just for the heck of it, I want to blow up a mountain–a huge mountain–would Sharess allow me? Would any god do? I doubt that. True, being an insanely powerful "living" immortal has its limitations too. But they're nothing compared to those when you get stuck in a god's chamberp–er, home.
And how is this different from real life? You're not going to blow up a huge mountain without permission from the host government, lots of money for explosives, environmental permits, and more.
Why is it so limiting to think you might not be allowed to do something most people wouldn't want to do anyway, and that you can't do while alive, anyway?
Because when I'd be in the Realms, I wouldn't just be "most people."
That example probably would need a little bit of explanation. So . . .
In an unpopulated area somewhere in the east lies a lush land, with a gigantic mountain in the very center of it. I want to build an empire there, an empire under my own name. The mountain serves no purpose to me and to the people, monsters, and all sorts of beings I plan to "invite." So I've decided to just blow it up and have some earth elementals clean the mess.
It's just an example, and I could surely think up more that would again emphasize the difference between the limitation in the afterlife and the limitation of the living.
What if you're not near this mountain?
And while we're at it, why do you prefer the idea of an eternity of no options at all, and plenty of agony, as opposed to having few limitations and plenty of options? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 22:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, if you lose your identity (which basically is the most important thing you have, forged through your choices), you -obviously- are no longer yourself, merely something else that was allowed to use the 'energy' (or whatever it is) of your soul to achieve its goal. As far as what you experience as individual goes, you may as well end up in the Wall.
Honestly, I can only see weakness in giving oneself away as a 'cheap' way to get power (which could be achieved with other methods as well, btw).
What is "self"? And who decides what value it has? It has no intrinsic value because it does not exist. It is an abstract concept that theologianns and philosophers impose on the rest of us. I decide what my identity's worth, I decide how important it is or isn't. And if I decide that it is worth it to sacrifice everything I am in order to be come so much more, then it's a perfectly valid decision.
And I'd hardly call it easy, or cheap. It's earned over centuries through suffering and pain, with wits and will. It is the truest form of dedication, to resign yourself to such a fate for uncertain reward.
quote:
Are you saying endless pleasure would get boring? If it is both endless...and pleasure...how could that get old?
As for this question, well, I'm going to have to get a little vulgar to answer it, so I apologies ahead of time and will censor myself. But to quote a movie, I forget which one;
"P*ssy's p*ssy. I f**ked a girl two nights ago, I don't even remember what color her t*ts were. "
Pleasure and pain are defined as contrasts. Without one, the other becomes meaningless. An eternity of carnal pleasure is as bland as the wall of the faithless.
In Hell, you have both. Pleasure and pain, together. And you have to earn it, it isn't just laying around with legs spread wide. So you have the struggle, the challenge, and then you have the reward.
And if you somehow get bored with that, well, you don't just sit content in a field with little animals frolicking about marveling about how the ants don't bite and the birds don't crap on you. No, there's an entire multiverse ripe for the taking.
Your idea of pleasure is young.
Pleasure can be watching children play, it can be winning a game of chess against a master, it can be reaching the highest peak of a mountain, it can be finishing a marathon, it can be creating a masterful piece of art...
Pleasure is not simply carnal. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 00:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Your existence would have no purpose at that point and all the stuff you could do would get boring, really fast. Even in this optimistic scenario, all you'd have accomplished is prolonging the struggle phase of your existence (which for others is their mortal life, where they face challenges etc... as you do) for a loooong time.
I'm honestly getting tired of repeating myself on this point; the struggle is the fun part. That's what I derive pleasure and enjoyment from. I want to prolong the struggle for as long as inhumanly possible.
As for "what do I do after I win", well, aside from the required time sitting on a throne of bones sipping the blood of my enemies out of the skull of one of the good-aligned gods(ebil enough for you?), the obvious answer is "whatever I want." Disregarding the tremendous amount of time it'll take to achieve the victory, once it's obtained the only thing to do is to enjoy it to it's fullest. The best part being that even though the war may be over, the conflict never ends, as you pointed out. There'll always be scheming underlings vying for power, so I'll always have the game to play.
Ultimately that's what I want out of an afterlife- endless conflict and struggle. Only the evil aligned afterlifes(and Warrior's Rest, admittedly) offer that.
Oh, I get your point (even tho good afterlives can offer 'endless' struggle as well, as other people pointed out). I misunderstood you in thinking that your issue with good-neutral afterlives was the dullness of what you can do in them ('cause everything will get dull at the end, even doing whatever you want after enjoying your victory, even endless struggle. Repeating the same thing over and over gets boring, and since there is only so much stuff you can do and you have an eternity to do it, existence will get monotonous anyway at some point, no matter where you end up). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 00:36:49
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quote:
Your idea of pleasure is young.
Pleasure can be watching children play, it can be winning a game of chess against a master, it can be reaching the highest peak of a mountain, it can be finishing a marathon, it can be creating a masterful piece of art...
Pleasure is not simply carnal.
Granted, but my overall point still stands- pleasure, on its own, is meaningless. Pleasure exists only with pain to contrast to it. Achievement means nothing without the risk of loss. And the best art is made from suffering- it's created to capture and endure the horrors of the world. ...Well, that sounded considerably angstier than I intended, but I stand by it.
quote:
Oh, I get your point (even tho good afterlives can offer 'endless' struggle as well, as other people pointed out). I misunderstood you in thinking that your issue with good-neutral afterlives was the dullness of what you can do in them ('cause everything will get dull at the end, even doing whatever you want after enjoying your victory, even endless struggle. Repeating the same thing over and over gets boring, and since there is only so much stuff you can do and you have an eternity to do it, existence will get monotonous anyway at some point, no matter where you end up).
What'll come down to is that eventually, I'll be relying on others to provide me with new and interesting challenges as time goes on. I have a certain faith in individuals in that they can always surprise you. Because I won't be struggling against a predictable environment but rather the constantly learning and adapting force that individuals are, I expect the dullness will be delayed indefinitely, or come in short bursts before a new opponent appears with something I haven't seen before. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 00:36:55
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quote:
Mapolq
I think some people are missing a point about Brightwater (and other good-aligned planes). It's not like there's no ambition, competition and risk-taking in Brightwater. Do you think Waukeen would live in a place without ambition, competition and risk-taking? You don't have everything you could possibly want in Brightwater (again, that would a place without economy and trade... and well, it's impossible really - if Brightwater had everything in the multiverse, it would be the multiverse). You just have a whole damn lot, but you can always strive for more. ...
Agreed, insofar as even the outer planes being "impure" examples of their representative alignments. Perhaps only the first "layers" of these planes, the places where once-mortal souls arrive, are less refined than the higher/lower extremes?
I must confess though that one man's paradise is another's hell, even when both have similar "alignments", morals, ethics, and general values. To be surrounded by all those disgusting little drunk-nosed halfling vermin would be sheer torment for me, I wouldn't view it as any sort of paradise unless given a shotgun. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 01:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
What'll come down to is that eventually, I'll be relying on others to provide me with new and interesting challenges as time goes on. I have a certain faith in individuals in that they can always surprise you. Because I won't be struggling against a predictable environment but rather the constantly learning and adapting force that individuals are, I expect the dullness will be delayed indefinitely, or come in short bursts before a new opponent appears with something I haven't seen before.
There's only a limited number of ideas your opponents can come up with. One day, if you survive all of them, dullness will get to you. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 01:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Your idea of pleasure is young.
Pleasure can be watching children play, it can be winning a game of chess against a master, it can be reaching the highest peak of a mountain, it can be finishing a marathon, it can be creating a masterful piece of art...
Pleasure is not simply carnal.
Granted, but my overall point still stands- pleasure, on its own, is meaningless. Pleasure exists only with pain to contrast to it. Achievement means nothing without the risk of loss. And the best art is made from suffering- it's created to capture and endure the horrors of the world. ...Well, that sounded considerably angstier than I intended, but I stand by it.
Duality arguments aren't really valid I'm afraid. Pleasure can exist without an opposite very easily and still exist. Duality argument began as priesthoods tried to explain away why a "good" divine being would allow an "evil" being to exist if the good being only wished good for his creations.
I exist as a human, and I don't have an opposite.
Pleaure is NOT the absence of displeasure. I would be always happy with my children if they were always "good"...I don't have to have them misbehave simply to be pleased when they are good children.
The alignment system in D&D stems from real-world "opposite/duality" arguments...but pleasure is just pleasure and pain is just pain. They are both simply senses of our mind...having gone to "heaven" in D&D we would exist outside of simple notions such as being "bored" at any rate...and besides, being bored is simply not a true emotional state at any rate...apathy is the killer of enjoying life. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2013 : 01:17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Your idea of pleasure is young.
Pleasure can be watching children play, it can be winning a game of chess against a master, it can be reaching the highest peak of a mountain, it can be finishing a marathon, it can be creating a masterful piece of art...
Pleasure is not simply carnal.
Granted, but my overall point still stands- pleasure, on its own, is meaningless. Pleasure exists only with pain to contrast to it. Achievement means nothing without the risk of loss. And the best art is made from suffering- it's created to capture and endure the horrors of the world. ...Well, that sounded considerably angstier than I intended, but I stand by it.
Duality arguments aren't really valid I'm afraid. Pleasure can exist without an opposite very easily and still exist. Duality argument began as priesthoods tried to explain away why a "good" divine being would allow an "evil" being to exist if the good being only wished good for his creations.
I exist as a human, and I don't have an opposite.
Pleaure is NOT the absence of displeasure. I would be always happy with my children if they were always "good"...I don't have to have them misbehave simply to be pleased when they are good children.
The alignment system in D&D stems from real-world "opposite/duality" arguments...but pleasure is just pleasure and pain is just pain. They are both simply senses of our mind...having gone to "heaven" in D&D we would exist outside of simple notions such as being "bored" at any rate...and besides, being bored is simply not a true emotional state at any rate...apathy is the killer of enjoying life.
I strongly disagree. All things are relative, including pleasure and pain.
Lets take you're favorite food. Whatever it is that you've eaten that tastes best. Now, imagine that's all you've ever eaten in your life, never had anything else.
You wouldn't be able to appreciate just how good it is unless you have something to compare it to.
Pleasure and pain exist relative to one another. Without that comparison, they're just sensations. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Who is your patron deity?
