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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 06:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
See, this is why it sucks to follow an evil god. You think you're getting a sweet deal, power, wealth, whatever- then either they decide they don't need/want you any more, or that your death would serve some great purpose they have going on behind the scenes, and BAM! You're suddenly stuck in an afterlife where you get tortured by random demons/devils for eternity, and you wonder where you went wrong.....
If you're clever and choose your words carefully, and have something to bargain beyond your own soul, there is a sweet deal waiting for you- to become a devil yourself, and to have the opportunity rise to levels of power others merely dream of.
It is a risk, and it is a path full of suffering. But true power doesn't come without sacrifice. It doesn't come without the will to endure. And after all, what's a few thousand years of torture to a devil, anyway? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 06:20:24
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Suicide is a god-killer...and thus very often (though not always) a no-no in all religions. By god-killer I mean this:
If all the worshipers of a god die off...who teaches and preaches about the god? Not living a life as an example of what a god teaches in of itself probably sends you to the Wall of the Faithless. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 06:23:59
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I'm not sure how the gods in the Realms view suicide, but as I said, gods like the Seldarine encourage you to live life to the fullest.
@CoA: to a devil, perhaps, but what a few thousands years of torture to a human/elf/dwarf, etc, and if you didn't have something other than your soul to bargain with? Simply put, what if you fail? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Jergals Spare Scythe
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 07:17:06
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Hello all, I'd venerate Jergal chiefly, of course. Eternity as an archlich monk/wizard honing my art? Sign me up!
Mask next, not to honor his thievery aspect, but for his dominion over shadow and as an alternative to Tymora for luck.
Finally Hoar, who's sense of justice is poetic, but doesn't always hew to the letter of the law. Let the punishment fit the crime. |
"Seek to bring order to the chaos of life, for in death there is finality and a fixedness of state. Be ready for death for it is at hand and uncompromising."
Excerpt from Jergal's Dogma, Faiths and Pantheons, page 99 |
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 08:10:42
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| Ao - If I have to do the God thing I want one with a shelf life that is greater than milk. |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 08:13:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm not sure how the gods in the Realms view suicide, but as I said, gods like the Seldarine encourage you to live life to the fullest.
@CoA: to a devil, perhaps, but what a few thousands years of torture to a human/elf/dwarf, etc, and if you didn't have something other than your soul to bargain with? Simply put, what if you fail?
So you're saying one should only reach for their goals when success is guaranteed?
It's a risk, as are all things worth reaching for. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 11:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
See, this is why it sucks to follow an evil god. You think you're getting a sweet deal, power, wealth, whatever- then either they decide they don't need/want you any more, or that your death would serve some great purpose they have going on behind the scenes, and BAM! You're suddenly stuck in an afterlife where you get tortured by random demons/devils for eternity, and you wonder where you went wrong.....
If you're clever and choose your words carefully, and have something to bargain beyond your own soul, there is a sweet deal waiting for you- to become a devil yourself, and to have the opportunity rise to levels of power others merely dream of.
It is a risk, and it is a path full of suffering. But true power doesn't come without sacrifice. It doesn't come without the will to endure. And after all, what's a few thousand years of torture to a devil, anyway?
The problem is that devil worshippers often start off as lemures, who might be promoted to higher rank devils (if they don't end up destroyed) after a large amount of time and a good does of pain and bowing their heads to their superior devil (the only one who can authorize the promotion). And even then, any kind of identity or personality they developed would be destroyed by the (extremely painful) Ceremony of Promotion (with only the memories of the enemies and ''job'' experiences being allowed to stay), because this is what Baator does: stomping the individual under the weight of hierarchy and law.
So, even setting aside the physical and mental pain endured and the sacrifices required to maintain the status, petitioners wouldn't exactly be enjoying their life, as nothing of their original self would be left and any attempt to rebuild an identity would be crushed by the reset that the Ceremony of Promotion brings. Basically, they'd have no identity but the one that their devil form imposes them (unless they managed to get to the top, where they wouldn't have to engage in any promotion and would have time to build up their personality. Still, what they were in life would be utterly lost). Furthermore, all of this means that -uber power or not- once you die as devil worshipper, you die forever: whatever you become is just something that originated from the 'energy'(?) of your soul, not actually yourself.
Then, is it really worth to suffer and lose oneself only to get 'powah' (especially considering that good/neutral outsiders can be very powerful as well)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2013 11:17:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 12:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Dennis- death is inevitable, even if you never "intend" it to happen, someday, somewhere, somehow- it WILL.... Food for thought. There's no such thing as TRUE immortality.
That's why the genre is called fantasy--anything is possible, even true immortality.
Tsk tsk! Stop pretending, we all know you'll be a devoted follower of Shar. You and all your shade buddies.
=)
Haven't you read the memo? I'm personally helping Telamont kill their (as Brennus aptly put it) "bitch goddess." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 13:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Dennis- death is inevitable, even if you never "intend" it to happen, someday, somewhere, somehow- it WILL.... Food for thought. There's no such thing as TRUE immortality.
That's why the genre is called fantasy--anything is possible, even true immortality.
Tsk tsk! Stop pretending, we all know you'll be a devoted follower of Shar. You and all your shade buddies.
=)
Haven't you read the memo? I'm personally helping Telamont kill their (as Brennus aptly put it) "bitch goddess."
In the name of Mask I will gladly help out with that. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 13:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
Tsk tsk! Stop pretending, we all know you'll be a devoted follower of Shar. You and all your shade buddies.
=)
Haven't you read the memo? I'm personally helping Telamont kill their (as Brennus aptly put it) "bitch goddess."
In the name of Mask I will gladly help out with that.
Your help is most welcome. We accept all the help we can get. But mind you, be prepared for some grueling work. We're not just killing her, we're obliterating her that she would have no hope of getting back--ever.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 15:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Suicide is a god-killer...and thus very often (though not always) a no-no in all religions. By god-killer I mean this:
. Suicide would be an act of worship to some deities like Shar. It would spread feelings of hopelessness and lost. You don't need someone to be your patron deity for them to receive worship. Fear or reverence or simply using aspects of their portfolio works. How many people choose Beshaba or Talos as their patron? How many temples do they have? Yet they are more powerful than gods like waukeen or lliira who seem to have temples everywhere. Also if total in Planescape countsdead worshipers create petitioners. A suicide cult of Shar or Talos would spread theirworship or be a very large act of worship. Ear of destruction or loss would be spread. Those who died would be seen as martyrs. Reverence for saints and martyrs is huge.. especially if the god's goal is destruction or entropy |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 15:53:14
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Tempus, Brandobaris, or Tymora; More likely Tymora, the Die don't Lie.
What does happen to all of those faithful spirits and souls once their patron diety dies? Are they poured back into Fugue Plane and await the next sorting of the other gods, which they may have also honored during their life (like property), or do they become another brick in the Wall as has been stated? Are they utterly destroyed with their final plane and become only a shattered fragment of their Patron Diety? Just curious about that. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 17:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Suicide is a god-killer...and thus very often (though not always) a no-no in all religions. By god-killer I mean this:
If all the worshipers of a god die off...who teaches and preaches about the god? Not living a life as an example of what a god teaches in of itself probably sends you to the Wall of the Faithless.
I think the opinion of suicide will vary depending on the deity. Deities such as Helm and Torm? They'll probably be pissed off, as you'd be abandoning whatever duties you're supposed to handle in life. Same with Bane and maybe most other Lawful deities.
On the other hand, let's assume that you worship Torm or Helm, and you've been charged with defending a secret (say part of a true name of a powerful devil). You have been captured by a group of wizards (let's say the Twisted Rune), who intend to torture you and use magic to extract the secret from your mind so that they can call the devil and control it via it's true name. I would argue that it would be your RELIGIOUS DUTY to fall upon your sword before they get that information. In this case, you're a martyr, someone who has preformed the ultimate act of duty - someone that deserves to be elevated before the other faithful, someone who deserves to be honored and emulated.
On the reverse side of things you encounter chaotic deities, especially chaotic good deities such as Lliira and Sharess. Their entire world view is oriented toward maximizing your happiness, pleasure, and joy. They are actively encouraging you to avoid suffering and pain.
So, let's say you're a slave of the Drow with no hope of escape. Unless you find pleasure and joy in serving and pleasing the Drow, you're pretty much screwed. The only logical conclusion is to check out as soon as you can so that you can go on to collect your otherworldly rewards.
I mean, just take a moment to think about it. The entire perception and view of the world is different from the one we'd normally hold. In the eyes of a devoted follower of Sharess or Lliira, life is a temporary thing, meant to be enjoyed and savored, but ultimately relinquished for greater rewards in the afterlife. The purpose of living would be to maximize the joy, pleasure, and happiness of others as well as yourself. (In other words, you'd actively be discouraged against pleasures that benefit you alone, especially those pleasures that may cause suffering and pain to others.) The more joy, pleasure, and happiness you can bring to yourself and others during life the greater your rewards will be in the afterlife.
So, basically, life is just a game where you're trying to score as many points as possible so that you'll be able to cash those points in when you die. The better you make the world by furthering the aims of Sharess and Lliira, the better your afterlife is going to be... so it's not a suicide cult.
However, if you're a poor peasant who has no hope for the future, where your life is drudgery day in and day out? If you're life is only going to be filled with misery and suffering? Then checking out early and cashing in those points is a perfectly logical thing to do.
So, let's say you're a worshiper of Lliira living under the tyrannical rule of a priest of Bane. It makes perfect sense to cause a rebellion, in an attempt to overthrow the Banite. Why fear death? Those that who worship Lliira and die in the battle are the lucky ones! Not only are they going to a better place, they've died martyr's for the cause of freedom, which means they've just racked up major rewards in the afterlife. It's just like the follower of Torm who falls on his sword to prevent the true name of a devil from falling into the hands of the Twisted Rune.
Life, death, and suicide are all a matter of the perspective of the deity, their faithful, and the situation. |
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 18:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
Tsk tsk! Stop pretending, we all know you'll be a devoted follower of Shar. You and all your shade buddies.
=)
Haven't you read the memo? I'm personally helping Telamont kill their (as Brennus aptly put it) "bitch goddess."
In the name of Mask I will gladly help out with that.
Your help is most welcome. We accept all the help we can get. But mind you, be prepared for some grueling work. We're not just killing her, we're obliterating her that she would have no hope of getting back--ever.
As a follower of Selune I won't need any convincing to help. |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 18:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Suicide is a god-killer...and thus very often (though not always) a no-no in all religions. By god-killer I mean this:
If all the worshipers of a god die off...who teaches and preaches about the god? Not living a life as an example of what a god teaches in of itself probably sends you to the Wall of the Faithless.
I'll quote myself because for some reason I don't think people got what I was saying:
"...and thus very often (though not always) a no-no in all religions."
Peasants are not going to commit suicide in droves just because they are worshipers of a "happy" god.
Samurai are a good example, to simply commit suicide is cowardice; BUT, to do so after losing honor is to restore your honor. Samurai should not fear death; but they should not seek it because it would dishonor their memory and (more importantly) the honor of their family and lord.
Veneration of a deity is not going to involve dying just to get to heaven. Not even Shar or Talos are going to support this notion. Death is easy for the human condition to quantify and move past for most healthy minded folks. Turning a family member into a near fiend bent on the end of the world is better.
On an interesting side note, there was a time in the past when early Christians started offing themselves to get to heaven faster...and the church then made the edict that Suicide is a Sin. You can't gain tithe and hands in the harvest if all the farmers are dead!
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 01:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
Tempus, Brandobaris, or Tymora; More likely Tymora, the Die don't Lie.
What does happen to all of those faithful spirits and souls once their patron diety dies? Are they poured back into Fugue Plane and await the next sorting of the other gods, which they may have also honored during their life (like property), or do they become another brick in the Wall as has been stated? Are they utterly destroyed with their final plane and become only a shattered fragment of their Patron Diety? Just curious about that.
That is a very good question, and one I've wondered myself. In some cases, another deity will stop the dead deity's realm from being destroyed, and take the souls of their followers, such as Corellon did with Eilistraee's realm and her followers, or, to back up, like when Vhaeraun merged with Eilistraee.
Or, if a deity dies but shares a a realm with other deities, that realm would be spared. Celestia, for example, was home to Tyr as well as Torm (among others), so it was not destroyed when Tyr died.
But in the cases where this doesn't happen...I don't know.
@CoA: no, I am not saying you should only go for your goals if success is guaranteed. Of course you should strive for your goals, and of course there is risk, but this is your soul we are talking about. Failure means eternal suffering. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 13:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm really surprised by some people's answers. For me, the decision was all about the afterlife. If you're going to be stuck in an afterlife for a really long time (eternity?), then you best hope that it's a good one.
Well, as I mentioned above, if you don't intend to die, then it's not going to be a problem. That's what magic, exercise, and beer are for!
This actually misses the point! Dying and going to Brightwater is an IMPROVEMENT over living! Life is filled with suffering, pain, loss, and so many other horrible things.
Why would I let myself be stuck in just one place and keep doing the same things over and over again when the whole Realmspace and beyond are easily within my reach and I could do almost anything that I want without worrying that I'd be offending some stupid divine entity?
quote:
Most likely, if we really existed in the Realms, virtually all of us would be poor peasants slaving away on a farm somewhere. Farm work is hard. It sucks. So, I'm going to be the smart peasant.
The Realms is a great place and profuse with near-limitless possibilies, and all you want to be is a peasant? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 14:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Why would I let myself be stuck in just one place and keep doing the same things over and over again when the whole Realmspace and beyond are easily within my reach and I could do almost anything that I want without worrying that I'd be offending some stupid divine entity?
I think you're right when it comes to most of the deities. Frankly, I think being made part of the wall and facing complete non-existence is preferable to most of the afterlives offered. Most of them, to one degree or another, has you living eternally under the thumb of one of the deities. No thank you.
The exception to this rule is Brightwater, and particularly either Sharess or Lliira. Since their love of freedom and individuality is part of what they are, it's not the same. It's less about serving them than serving yourself. Being forced to become a mindless lickspittle is the antithesis of freedom, and would undermine your happiness and joy (or at least my own). By their very nature they could not do this to me, as it would cause me suffering, and their very nature would compel them to remedy that.
In fact, I'm not even certain that they would restrict me to Brightwater. What if I wanted to journey to, say the Gates of the Moon? Would they restrict me, and if they restricted me and it undermined my happiness and joy... could they continue to restrict me? Obviously, I'd have to return to Brightwater, but that isn't really an issue.
This is exactly why I choose Brightwater. As far as I'm concerned, it's just like living on Toril if you cut out all the bits that sucked, and then made life amazingly awesome. No pain, no suffering, no negative consequences, and total freedom. It's a legit utopia without the oppressive suck that would be required for it to work in the mortal world.
I think you're making a lot of assumptions that just wouldn't be true if we actually existed in the Realms. For example, you're making the assumption that we'd easily be able to become beings of power. That's not necessarily true, at least not for most of us. And even if it were true you aren't born with it. You have to rise to power, and on the way up you make enemies and rivals.
Even if everything went perfectly, the more powerful you become the more likely you are to attract the attention of the gods. Just because you don't worship them doesn't prevent them from meddling in your affairs. You can't really escape them in the Realms.
Sure, if you gave me the power of Larloch and the Srinshee combined, and I knew I could challenge greater deities themselves and win easily... and that no one could ever challenge me, and I could do whatever I wanted. Then yeah, living might be preferable to dying. The likelihood of me achieving that? Virtually impossible. The likelihood of me being ganked by someone in my pursuit of such lofty goals? Virtually 100% certain.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
The Realms is a great place and profuse with near-limitless possibilies, and all you want to be is a peasant?
Of course not. That's a horrible fate worse than death itself. However, statistically speaking the overwhelming majority of the Realms are peasant farmers. If we were to be born in the Realms instead of the real world, chances are that would be our lot in life. It would be pure drudgery from sunup till sundown, from childhood till we're too old to continue and die.
That is what makes checking out early to get into Brightwater an obviously attractive option. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 18:09:45
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| Actually, only the evil aligned deities have realms you wouldn't really want to be in, and even some of those, such as Mask and Vhaeraun, are not that bad. The afterlives offered by good or neutral deities sound pretty pleasant to me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 18:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Your help [vs Shar] is most welcome. We accept all the help we can get. But mind you, be prepared for some grueling work. We're not just killing her, we're obliterating her that she would have no hope of getting back--ever.
Obliterating the goddess of oblivion seems like a no-win proposal, like fighting against the god of war or killing the god of murder. True, in some ways it seems especially fitting and sort of theologically apropos ... yet on the face of things it also seems a pointlessly self-defeating paradox. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 18:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, only the evil aligned deities have realms you wouldn't really want to be in, and even some of those, such as Mask and Vhaeraun, are not that bad. The afterlives offered by good or neutral deities sound pretty pleasant to me.
I don't disagree that there are degrees of better and worse afterlives, and of course generally speaking a good aligned deities afterlife is always going to be better than an evil aligned deities afterlife.
From the perspective of someone in the Realms, culture would play a large role in what they consider better or worse afterlives. For example, I think the afterlife offered by Tempus and the other deities of Warrior's Rest would be horrific. You're forced to fight endless battles against each other, where you die again and again, only to be raised to fight for the team that slayed you. It's like living in an endless never ending arena death match. I'd rather be placed in the wall, and face oblivion; but to someone born and raised in a warrior heavy culture - such as the North - this might seem like an awesome afterlife.
Then imagine serving Helm or Torm; and spending your afterlife guarding something. You're a guardsman in life, and now guess what? In death Helm or Torm wants you to stand guard here at this tower, and watch this gate to another plane... forever.
Alternatively, welcome to the House of Nature. You get to prance around in an unspoiled forest, roaming around with wild animals... forever. Sure, it might be pretty and peaceful. But this is forever we're talking about.
I mean, don't get me wrong. A lot of the afterlives offered would probably seem awesome from a cultural prospective. However, from a real world perspective - when you actually take the time to think about it - they suck. Most of the reasons they suck is because eternity is a really long time.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 18:58:59
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quote:
What does happen to all of those faithful spirits and souls once their patron diety dies? Are they poured back into Fugue Plane and await the next sorting of the other gods, which they may have also honored during their life (like property), or do they become another brick in the Wall as has been stated? Are they utterly destroyed with their final plane and become only a shattered fragment of their Patron Diety? Just curious about that.
Ive answered this question by assuming the following (my cosmology differs from that of the Realms, and even from the 'great wheel' model for that matter):
My homebrew assumes that every deity, even newly ascended ones, are given dominion over a plane. The newly ascended gods get a rather small (finite and small to be exact) one that they can expand as the centuries pass and their power grows. Although some newly arisen gods choose to remain in the Prime while they actively recruit followers (they WILL eventually depart though). Now...my other assumption is that the pantheon itself has a plane held in common by all of them (what I refer to as a Pantheonic Plane).
So, using the Greek gods as an example...Olympus is a plane held in common by the entire pantheon, complete with abodes and followers of each deity, but each god also has a private demesne held separate from Olympus. So the souls of a fallen god go the the pantheonic plane and reside there, assuming that another deity doesn't lay claim to them (and only a reasonable claim is acceptable).
Oops, I forgot to mention who my patron deity is...I WANT it to be Mystra but it would Helm methinks. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 05 Mar 2013 19:02:15 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 19:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Actually, only the evil aligned deities have realms you wouldn't really want to be in, and even some of those, such as Mask and Vhaeraun, are not that bad. The afterlives offered by good or neutral deities sound pretty pleasant to me.
I don't disagree that there are degrees of better and worse afterlives, and of course generally speaking a good aligned deities afterlife is always going to be better than an evil aligned deities afterlife.
From the perspective of someone in the Realms, culture would play a large role in what they consider better or worse afterlives. For example, I think the afterlife offered by Tempus and the other deities of Warrior's Rest would be horrific. You're forced to fight endless battles against each other, where you die again and again, only to be raised to fight for the team that slayed you. It's like living in an endless never ending arena death match. I'd rather be placed in the wall, and face oblivion; but to someone born and raised in a warrior heavy culture - such as the North - this might seem like an awesome afterlife.
Then imagine serving Helm or Torm; and spending your afterlife guarding something. You're a guardsman in life, and now guess what? In death Helm or Torm wants you to stand guard here at this tower, and watch this gate to another plane... forever.
Alternatively, welcome to the House of Nature. You get to prance around in an unspoiled forest, roaming around with wild animals... forever. Sure, it might be pretty and peaceful. But this is forever we're talking about.
I mean, don't get me wrong. A lot of the afterlives offered would probably seem awesome from a cultural prospective. However, from a real world perspective - when you actually take the time to think about it - they suck. Most of the reasons they suck is because eternity is a really long time.
Point taken, and culture does have something to do with it, but that's why you are taken in by the deity that best suits you. A scholar isn't going to the Halls of Tempus, and conversely a fighter (especially a Northman), isn't likely to be taken in by Oghma. I see Tempus' realm as kind of like Valhalla, or however you spell it.
And...I don't think you are stuck doing the exact same thing everyday. For example, in Arvandor, yeah you can frolic in the forest until you're heart's content if you wanted, but there other things to do in that realm, too. Same with Celestia or the Green Fields. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 20:38:53
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| My personal patron would very definitely be Oghma or Deneir. I might want to try for an afterlife with Sharess, but I'd probably wind up judged as one of the False if I did. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 22:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
See, this is why it sucks to follow an evil god. You think you're getting a sweet deal, power, wealth, whatever- then either they decide they don't need/want you any more, or that your death would serve some great purpose they have going on behind the scenes, and BAM! You're suddenly stuck in an afterlife where you get tortured by random demons/devils for eternity, and you wonder where you went wrong.....
If you're clever and choose your words carefully, and have something to bargain beyond your own soul, there is a sweet deal waiting for you- to become a devil yourself, and to have the opportunity rise to levels of power others merely dream of.
It is a risk, and it is a path full of suffering. But true power doesn't come without sacrifice. It doesn't come without the will to endure. And after all, what's a few thousand years of torture to a devil, anyway?
The problem is that devil worshippers often start off as lemures, who might be promoted to higher rank devils (if they don't end up destroyed) after a large amount of time and a good does of pain and bowing their heads to their superior devil (the only one who can authorize the promotion). And even then, any kind of identity or personality they developed would be destroyed by the (extremely painful) Ceremony of Promotion (with only the memories of the enemies and ''job'' experiences being allowed to stay), because this is what Baator does: stomping the individual under the weight of hierarchy and law.
So, even setting aside the physical and mental pain endured and the sacrifices required to maintain the status, petitioners wouldn't exactly be enjoying their life, as nothing of their original self would be left and any attempt to rebuild an identity would be crushed by the reset that the Ceremony of Promotion brings. Basically, they'd have no identity but the one that their devil form imposes them (unless they managed to get to the top, where they wouldn't have to engage in any promotion and would have time to build up their personality. Still, what they were in life would be utterly lost). Furthermore, all of this means that -uber power or not- once you die as devil worshipper, you die forever: whatever you become is just something that originated from the 'energy'(?) of your soul, not actually yourself.
Then, is it really worth to suffer and lose oneself only to get 'powah' (especially considering that good/neutral outsiders can be very powerful as well)?
If you're clever and cunning, choose your words properly and make sure you have something to barter with, you won't end up as a lemure. Still be at the lower end of the totem pole, but with a better chance of working your way up. Those who are truly brilliant and powerful in life(say someone who's gotten near or to level twenty, themselves) are almost sure to skyrocket through the ranks and be placed in the higher end. Asmodeus promotes and places based on merit.
Pain is something to be endured. It's a test of will and resolve. And the loss of identity is a sacrifice- power never comes without a price. One's self is simply something that reality imposed on them in the first place. What one becomes at the end of their ascension up the diabolic ranks, that is something they chose and earn for themselves.
Personally, I'd relish the challenge. Matching wit and will against the most cunning manipulators and schemers in the multiverse for eternity and coming out on top? Now that's heaven. Laying around in some idyllic field doing nothing but indulging in the pleasures of the flesh? That'd get really boring, really fast. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 22:40:44
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Meh, if you lose your identity (which basically is the most important thing you have, forged through your choices), you -obviously- are no longer yourself, merely something else that was allowed to use the 'energy' (or whatever it is) of your soul to achieve its goal. As far as what you experience as individual goes, you may as well end up in the Wall.
Honestly, I can only see weakness in giving oneself away as a 'cheap' way to get power (which could be achieved with other methods as well, btw). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Mar 2013 22:42:23 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 22:41:05
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| Are you saying endless pleasure would get boring? If it is both endless...and pleasure...how could that get old? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 22:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, if you lose your identity (which basically is the most important thing you have, forged through your choices), you -obviously- are no longer yourself, merely something else that was allowed to use the 'energy' (or whatever it is) of your soul to achieve its goal. As far as what you experience as individual goes, you may as well end up in the Wall.
Honestly, I can only see weakness in giving oneself away as a 'cheap' way to get power (which could be achieved with other methods as well, btw).
What is "self"? And who decides what value it has? It has no intrinsic value because it does not exist. It is an abstract concept that theologianns and philosophers impose on the rest of us. I decide what my identity's worth, I decide how important it is or isn't. And if I decide that it is worth it to sacrifice everything I am in order to be come so much more, then it's a perfectly valid decision.
And I'd hardly call it easy, or cheap. It's earned over centuries through suffering and pain, with wits and will. It is the truest form of dedication, to resign yourself to such a fate for uncertain reward.
quote:
Are you saying endless pleasure would get boring? If it is both endless...and pleasure...how could that get old?
As for this question, well, I'm going to have to get a little vulgar to answer it, so I apologies ahead of time and will censor myself. But to quote a movie, I forget which one;
"P*ssy's p*ssy. I f**ked a girl two nights ago, I don't even remember what color her t*ts were. "
Pleasure and pain are defined as contrasts. Without one, the other becomes meaningless. An eternity of carnal pleasure is as bland as the wall of the faithless.
In Hell, you have both. Pleasure and pain, together. And you have to earn it, it isn't just laying around with legs spread wide. So you have the struggle, the challenge, and then you have the reward.
And if you somehow get bored with that, well, you don't just sit content in a field with little animals frolicking about marveling about how the ants don't bite and the birds don't crap on you. No, there's an entire multiverse ripe for the taking. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 23:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, if you lose your identity (which basically is the most important thing you have, forged through your choices), you -obviously- are no longer yourself, merely something else that was allowed to use the 'energy' (or whatever it is) of your soul to achieve its goal. As far as what you experience as individual goes, you may as well end up in the Wall.
Honestly, I can only see weakness in giving oneself away as a 'cheap' way to get power (which could be achieved with other methods as well, btw).
What is "self"? And who decides what value it has? It has no intrinsic value because it does not exist. It is an abstract concept that theologianns and philosophers impose on the rest of us. I decide what my identity's worth, I decide how important it is or isn't. And if I decide that it is worth it to sacrifice everything I am in order to be come so much more, then it's a perfectly valid decision.
And I'd hardly call it easy, or cheap. It's earned over centuries through suffering and pain, with wits and will. It is the truest form of dedication, to resign yourself to such a fate for uncertain reward.
Self is the most important thing you have because if you lose it, you will lose everything (being something else -or nothing at all, if you get obliterated- which is getting what you used to have).
What I mean is this: why would you care about how much power you have if you are -simply put- dead. It is no longer you who's ''enjoying'' the results of your suffering, head-bowing and sacrifices. It is some entity -or the plane itself- that is using your 'husk' to achieve its goal. You don't have any control over that, being basically gone.
I find it a bit hard to explain, so I apologize if I wasn't clear enough. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Mar 2013 23:11:25 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2013 : 23:14:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Meh, if you lose your identity (which basically is the most important thing you have, forged through your choices), you -obviously- are no longer yourself, merely something else that was allowed to use the 'energy' (or whatever it is) of your soul to achieve its goal. As far as what you experience as individual goes, you may as well end up in the Wall.
Honestly, I can only see weakness in giving oneself away as a 'cheap' way to get power (which could be achieved with other methods as well, btw).
What is "self"? And who decides what value it has? It has no intrinsic value because it does not exist. It is an abstract concept that theologianns and philosophers impose on the rest of us. I decide what my identity's worth, I decide how important it is or isn't. And if I decide that it is worth it to sacrifice everything I am in order to be come so much more, then it's a perfectly valid decision.
And I'd hardly call it easy, or cheap. It's earned over centuries through suffering and pain, with wits and will. It is the truest form of dedication, to resign yourself to such a fate for uncertain reward.
Self is the most important thing you have because if you lose it, you will lose everything (being something else -or nothing at all if you get obliterated- which is getting what you had).
What I mean is this: why would you care about how much power you have if you are -simply put- dead. It is no longer you who's ''enjoying'' the results of your suffering, head-bowing and sacrifices. It is some entity -or the plane itself- that is using your 'husk' to achieve its goal. You don't have any control over that, being basically gone.
I find it a bit hard to explain, so I apologize if I wasn't clear enough.
I'd rather die knowing that some small part of me will become part of something great, then be condemned to an eternity of frivolous pursuits.
I look to the good aligned afterlifes and I think, these are truly the worst hells I could possibly imagine. I look to Baator and I think "That's heaven." |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Who is your patron deity?
