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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 13:50:13
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| Wasn't the wall destroyed with the coming of 4e Realms? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 15:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Wasn't the wall destroyed with the coming of 4e Realms?
If we're referring to the Wall of the Faithless, I'm pretty sure it's still there as is Kelemvore.
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 15:42:06
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Consider yourself on my deathlist  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 16:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Relying on the gods for food, money, luck, etc. would just make one lazy. So no, I won't pray to any, nor have my characters do it.
"All in all, you're just another brick in the Wall..." </Pink Floyd>
That's only a problem for people who die. As my favorite characters don't intend to, we'd have no such problem.
Speak for yourself. My favorite character die all too often.
@all: I don't think this applies to the real world. You can be an athiest in real life, but in the Realms, deities and the afterlife exist (it's a fictional world, I know, but you get the idea). So you could have a patron deity in the Realms and be in atheist irl.
Other than Corellon, I also wouldn't mind being a follower of Lathander/Amanautaur, Eilistraee, or Sehanine (I like Vhaeraun and Mask but their alignment is wrong for me). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 17:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Consider yourself on my deathlist
See, your strife gives me strength! You think you can stop a limitless power such as Cyric by my death? He once wrote on that very deathlist with his mere thought, and in the end he will again.
Oh, Do I have to remind you your patron's already in the dead book...
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 17:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I'd follow Cyric and set him free! He'd smite all your precious petty gods with his broken shackles, and I'd cackle madly alongside him as I see your strife consume you.
AWESOME.
Personally I prefer Tyr.
I would totally like to let loose and try following Bane just to be the cold blooded Tyrant Ive always wanted to be. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 17:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Speak for yourself. My favorite character die all too often.
I would never like a character that dies too often. Even cats only have nine lives. To die more than that, it's too "cockroachy." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 17:44:02
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I'm really surprised by some people's answers. For me, the decision was all about the afterlife. If you're going to be stuck in an afterlife for a really long time (eternity?), then you best hope that it's a good one.
That's why I went with Sharess, because I knew I'd be hanging out in Brightwater. Comparatively speaking, I can't think of any other deity that offers a better deal than this...
The deities who offer a path into Brightwater (Lliira, Sharess, Sune, Tymora, and Waukeen) are all fairly lax and open minded deities. They don't have oppressive dogmas, in fact both Lliira and Sharess go out of their way to focus on doing what brings you joy and happiness. The only thing they really require of you is to also bring joy and happiness to others.
Then, all you really have to do is go off somewhere and die... and you're in. When you die and someone says something like, "Yeah, he's gone to a better place." They ain't lying. I mean, if you're like a peasant or something, sell your soul to Sharess as fast as you can then jump off a cliff. Your lot in the cosmos has just improved exponentially.
Now, I love so many of the deities of the Realms, but most of them offer crappy afterlives. I mean, who really wants to spend their afterlife (eternity?) in the Barrens of Doom and Despair?
Frankly, if you're not ending up in Brightwater (or at least another CG aligned plane), then you're a sucker. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 18:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm really surprised by some people's answers. For me, the decision was all about the afterlife. If you're going to be stuck in an afterlife for a really long time (eternity?), then you best hope that it's a good one.
Well, as I mentioned above, if you don't intend to die, then it's not going to be a problem. That's what magic, exercise, and beer are for! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 18:12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm really surprised by some people's answers. For me, the decision was all about the afterlife. If you're going to be stuck in an afterlife for a really long time (eternity?), then you best hope that it's a good one.
That's why I went with Sharess, because I knew I'd be hanging out in Brightwater. Comparatively speaking, I can't think of any other deity that offers a better deal than this...
The deities who offer a path into Brightwater (Lliira, Sharess, Sune, Tymora, and Waukeen) are all fairly lax and open minded deities. They don't have oppressive dogmas, in fact both Lliira and Sharess go out of their way to focus on doing what brings you joy and happiness. The only thing they really require of you is to also bring joy and happiness to others.
Then, all you really have to do is go off somewhere and die... and you're in. When you die and someone says something like, "Yeah, he's gone to a better place." They ain't lying. I mean, if you're like a peasant or something, sell your soul to Sharess as fast as you can then jump off a cliff. Your lot in the cosmos has just improved exponentially.
Now, I love so many of the deities of the Realms, but most of them offer crappy afterlives. I mean, who really wants to spend their afterlife (eternity?) in the Barrens of Doom and Despair?
Frankly, if you're not ending up in Brightwater (or at least another CG aligned plane), then you're a sucker.
I like this answer. In the end it is all about the place you'll end up. My choice if not Selune would be one of the above. |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 18:20:29
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If I'd walk the realms I'd want to experience it all there, on the beautiful surface of Faerun. The powers Cyric offers allows me to see it all up close and personal while in one of my numerous guises, and allows me the means to control that which is the most powerful force in the multiverse. Fear.
All I need is the power to harness it for my own good, and great power will await me. I care not for anything after my mortal coil is ended. My cause Is so strong I intend to live on and haunt the minds of those that displease Cyric.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 18:39:23
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| You forget that when killing a follower of a god you weaken the god in a way aswell, right? Die you heretic scum! *vanquishes Bladewind with the righteous hate of Bane* |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 19:41:54
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See, this is why it sucks to follow an evil god. You think you're getting a sweet deal, power, wealth, whatever- then either they decide they don't need/want you any more, or that your death would serve some great purpose they have going on behind the scenes, and BAM! You're suddenly stuck in an afterlife where you get tortured by random demons/devils for eternity, and you wonder where you went wrong.....
I say- FORGET THAT! This is why I like Eilistraee, Sharess (good choice, Aldrick!) or some of the other CG/NG deities mentioned above. You die, and you wake up in a place where all you do is eat, drink, dance, be merry, and- other pleasant stuff. Sounds like a winner to me! Who wants to end up as part of a wall of tormented souls, or be whipped, flayed, etc by vicious fiends for eternity?! Not THIS gal, baby! (And Dennis- death is inevitable, even if you never "intend" it to happen, someday, somewhere, somehow- it WILL.... Food for thought. There's no such thing as TRUE immortality.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 20:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Dennis- death is inevitable, even if you never "intend" it to happen, someday, somewhere, somehow- it WILL.... Food for thought. There's no such thing as TRUE immortality.
That's why the genre is called fantasy--anything is possible, even true immortality. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 20:35:23
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| If that's the case, then why do so many "immortal" beings end up dead? I've YET to come across one who was immortal and STAYED that way! Even in fantasy, there are limits. There's always someone looking to take that "invincible" guy down. And eventually, someone WILL succeed. Just sayin'. Even gods can die- just ask Mystra! (Or Bane, or Helm, or Eilistraee, Vaerhaun, etc.....) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3811 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 21:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
If that's the case, then why do so many "immortal" beings end up dead? I've YET to come across one who was immortal and STAYED that way! Even in fantasy, there are limits. There's always someone looking to take that "invincible" guy down. And eventually, someone WILL succeed. Just sayin'. Even gods can die- just ask Mystra! (Or Bane, or Helm, or Eilistraee, Vaerhaun, etc.....)
True. Every character will eventually die if it means a good amount of $$ from novel sales for the company that owns him/her. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Mar 2013 21:04:42 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 21:33:54
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| Yup. For further proof, see what Marvel recently did with Spider-Man.... (And I'm STILL disgusted with them on that one...) not fantasy, per se, but still- this is possibly their biggest character, and yet they killed him off anyway. But I wasn't speaking of novel or "known" characters so much as ANY PC/NPC that anyone plays, reads, uses, etc. They can ALL be killed eventually. To quote one of my all-time fave comic characters, "Death comes for us all..." (This was said to a MAJOR villain right before he fell to his death!) Or to put it another way, "Everyone dies- it's just a question of how, and why." |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 21:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm really surprised by some people's answers. For me, the decision was all about the afterlife. If you're going to be stuck in an afterlife for a really long time (eternity?), then you best hope that it's a good one.
Well, as I mentioned above, if you don't intend to die, then it's not going to be a problem. That's what magic, exercise, and beer are for!
This actually misses the point! Dying and going to Brightwater is an IMPROVEMENT over living! Life is filled with suffering, pain, loss, and so many other horrible things.
Most likely, if we really existed in the Realms, virtually all of us would be poor peasants slaving away on a farm somewhere. Farm work is hard. It sucks. So, I'm going to be the smart peasant.
I'm going to find the nearest festhall, sell my soul to Sharess, screw a dozen hookers, then overdose on drugs. After that, I'm on easy street. 
So, there you are slaving away in an attempt to get immortality, and to get it most likely means you're putting yourself in danger. Every time you get put into danger there is a risk that you die. Even if you live, you most likely did something really evil to get your immortality. This means - this being the Realms - that eventually some adventurer or other is going to show up to gank you and take your stuff. Sure, you might end up living a really long time - maybe even thousands of years - but every day there is always a small chance that somewhere out there someone could show up to gank you. Then you're screwed.
My advice is to hedge your bets, but hey... if you end up in the wall, I'll spend a few days enjoying my endless debauchery in your honor. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 22:21:04
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I repeat my question about Karsus.
Lacking any desire to worship any of the childish Faerūnian deities - "or else" be stuffed into the Wall - I ask if worshipping Karsus, or some other dormant/inactive/expired deity, would suffice? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 01:55:34
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My point exactly. Immortality is NO picnic. Imagine what it's been like for Elminster after so long, and then add THOUSANDS of years to that. What's the POINT? If you did get to live "forever", you'd probably be A: undead; B: spending most of your time/resources simply trying to prolong your life in other ways (potions, etc); or C: making a pact with some kind of fiend in exchange for a "favor" or permanent service; or D: serving some god as a demi-power of some sort, but most likely with a heavy price. None of the above really seems desirable, on closer inspection.
On top of that, there's the very REAL fact that anything you care about is eventually going to be lost to time. Real immortality would be an endless exercise in self-punishment. Just ask El.... (Plus, HOW do you intend to SPEND all that time? I get bored when I have nothing to do just for a few HOURS. I can't even imagine what it would be like trying to fill millenia worth of time with enough things to keep myself occupied....) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 02:41:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I repeat my question about Karsus.
Lacking any desire to worship any of the childish Faerūnian deities - "or else" be stuffed into the Wall - I ask if worshipping Karsus, or some other dormant/inactive/expired deity, would suffice?
I'd say worshipping Karsus, in Kelemvor's eyes, would be akin to worshipping a random rock you found lying in a field, so no, it wouldn't exempt you from the Wall. Worshipping some dormant entity, but with an actual presence and divine essence, like Ulutiu, would. But then, that wouldn't be any different from worshipping any other god, would it? But if you'd be so intent on defying the gods, the good news is that the Wall isn't really too much of a bad deal under Kelemvor. It's a much better one than most evil-aligned planes anyway. Instead of eternal or at least long-drawn torment (until your soul merges with the plane and ceases to exist individually) you get ten days or so stuck in a wall and then your soul dissolves. I'd choose oblivion over torture any day. Of course, you'd still be bound to Kelemvor's whim. Pretty much the only way I can imagine someone could escape the gods meddling with them in the Forgotten Realms would be to become an overdeity.
As for me, I'm much less ambitious than that, so I'd throw my lot with one of the Brightwater girls like Aldrick. Only I'd probably choose Lliira or Waukeen. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 02:58:48
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Do I have to pick one? I think I would much rather be a polytheist (closer to my actual RL spirituality) and honor the Seledrine, Meilikki, Sylvanus, Mystra, Tyr, Torm, Kelemvor, maybe even Moradin.  I am sure I can list more.
The ideas they represent and embody is what would determine if I honor them.
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 04:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
Do I have to pick one? I think I would much rather be a polytheist (closer to my actual RL spirituality) and honor the Seledrine, Meilikki, Sylvanus, Mystra, Tyr, Torm, Kelemvor, maybe even Moradin. I am sure I can list more.
The ideas they represent and embody is what would determine if I honor them.
The problem with that is, who would you be calling to fetch your soul up when you end up in Kelemvore's city?
As I understand it all the souls end up there, and from there they are taken to their respetive deities' plane. The ones that doesn't have a deity get sent to the wall. |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 04:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
Do I have to pick one? I think I would much rather be a polytheist (closer to my actual RL spirituality) and honor the Seledrine, Meilikki, Sylvanus, Mystra, Tyr, Torm, Kelemvor, maybe even Moradin. I am sure I can list more.
The ideas they represent and embody is what would determine if I honor them.
Everyone in the Realms calls on multiple deities, except for priests. The idea is that no matter how many you call on, there is going to be one that's a better match for you than all others, even if it's only a matter of degrees. I could easily go for Lathander, Shaundakul, Selūne, or Lurue -- but I think that my core personality matches Lurue most closely, so she's my choice. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LastStand
Learned Scribe
130 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 04:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And Dennis- death is inevitable, even if you never "intend" it to happen, someday, somewhere, somehow- it WILL.... Food for thought. There's no such thing as TRUE immortality.
That's why the genre is called fantasy--anything is possible, even true immortality.
Tsk tsk! Stop pretending, we all know you'll be a devoted follower of Shar. You and all your shade buddies.
=) |
"Don't. The battlegrounds that you and I have returned from alive are too different."
~ Claymore ch106 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 04:48:14
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I agree with Aldrick and AI. Even in a fantasy setting, the afterlife is where you go when you die, so it better be a good place! Mask and Vhaeraun's realm aren't that bad, as far as evil deities are concerned, but I'd much rather be in Brightwater, the Green Fields, or Arvandor (my choice), is a better option.
@LastStand: yes and no. Some Faerunians do have more than one "patron" deity. When they go to the Fogue Plane, the deity that best fits their ideology comes to claim them (maybe if they have more than one it's whichever claims them first?). The Wall is for those who truly defy the gods, defile a temple, or don't acknowledge them at all. But even those who don't have a "patron" deity will likely be claimed by one who best fits their ethics and ideologies. That, at least, is my understanding. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 06:02:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
My point exactly. Immortality is NO picnic. Imagine what it's been like for Elminster after so long, and then add THOUSANDS of years to that. What's the POINT? If you did get to live "forever", you'd probably be A: undead; B: spending most of your time/resources simply trying to prolong your life in other ways (potions, etc); or C: making a pact with some kind of fiend in exchange for a "favor" or permanent service; or D: serving some god as a demi-power of some sort, but most likely with a heavy price. None of the above really seems desirable, on closer inspection.
On top of that, there's the very REAL fact that anything you care about is eventually going to be lost to time. Real immortality would be an endless exercise in self-punishment. Just ask El.... (Plus, HOW do you intend to SPEND all that time? I get bored when I have nothing to do just for a few HOURS. I can't even imagine what it would be like trying to fill millenia worth of time with enough things to keep myself occupied....)
Yes, all of this plus the fact that achieving immortality is somewhat redundant. After all, once you've traveled to the afterlife you're an immortal spirit. It's not like your life really ends... in fact, arguably it's just beginning.
The main disadvantage of this is that you'll fall under the sway of a deity who will have a great deal of influence over your life... and this is a major problem. However, I already considered that when I selected Brightwater.
With Lliira's influence over Brightwater (and Sharess' influence as well) - oppression isn't an issue. She's anti-tyranny. In fact, rather than serving them, they're kinda serving you because the entire reward is basically based around you having an afterlife of joy and fulfillment. Who has to provide that joy and fulfillment? The goddesses of Brightwater.
I mean, it's like I said. Life on Toril - even for the best and happiest people, sucks. They're going to experience pain, loss, misery, suffering, and a whole butt load of other undesirable things. Going to Brightwater is an improved experience by far.
It really does make logical sense in the Realms - where you know the Gods and their afterlives are real - to pick a god with a good afterlife then commit suicide. The faster you die, the happier and better off you'll be - this is especially true if you're poor and don't really have any real power. There is literally no point in suffering when the rewards of the afterlife are so enticing by comparison.
I mean, just imagine if you drew a really horrible lot in life... like finding yourself a slave to the drow with no realistic hope of escape. It's better just to kill yourself to get to Brightwater ASAP. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 06:14:58
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@Aldrick: I'm glad you see things the way I do on this. I love that the gods and the afterlife in the Realms are real. It makes it fuller, and it means the characters have some place to go when they die. Life is hard on Faerun, no matter your race, but races like elves are typically life-loving, and the Seldarine want them to live it to the fullest. But having a longer life could also mean more pain and trials, so the elves are lucky to have a place like Arvandor to go to.
It also adds a point to their lives, as opposed to it just being "you live, you die and cease to exist, end of story". I mean, plainly, that would suck, especially if your life sucked. "Well, I was a slave my whole, now I cease to exist". Bleh, just bleh. So, yeah, better that there is Arvandor, Brightwater, Celestia, Green Fields, Mielikki's realm (I thin it's the Deepwilds, but I could be wrong), etc. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Who is your patron deity?
