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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 01:11:13
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There is also quite a difference between stories like Homer's Odyssey and, say, Pools of Twilight.
I found Tymora's Luck to be a fine little tale, even though it was primarily just a godly soap opera romance. Even the two post-Avatar Cyric books were entertaining. Bane's involvement with Szass Tam was engaging, although I feel certain other events in Undead ruined an otherwise fine trilogy. And everybody knows about the famously excellent alley scene. These gods seem to be motivated by love, strength, magic, knowledge ... the sorts of things which might motivate lowly little humans. This makes them into interesting characters instead of into nebulously incomprehensible omni-beings.
Novels involving gods stealing each others' power and blasting the cosmos apart for petty and arbitrary (or contrived) reasons are universally disappointing. Mystra's portfolio seems to include "Herald of new editions". Mephistopheles initially seemed to have such abundant potential yet just puttered off with a certain je ne sais quoi that's unappealing and dull. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 04:25:11
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| In mythology, the gods act very "human" sometimes, and the gods in the Realms are the same way. The only difference is, their arguments have huge consequences, but I think the involvement of the gods adds enrichment. It's a fantasy setting, after all. I wouldn't want a god to come down in every story, no, and I'm sick of them dying over and over, but I like them in the Realms. I agree that uber characters always saving the day can get tedious, but I think there could be a balance between god-driven novels (if you will), and ones about ordinary people. That would satisfy me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 05:23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
...but I think the involvement of the gods adds enrichment.
At times it cheapens the characters' exploits by offering or being a panacea. When you're a god and too powerful, you could solve any problem, do almost anything without anyone trying to stop you. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 05:43:39
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That's true. Maybe "involvement" was the wrong word for me to use in that sentence. I should have said "presence" or "existence". I'm not saying a deity has to appear in -every- story (that WOULD get old). I don't like it when things are just suddenly solved, either, and I wasn't implying I even want that kind of story. I just like their presence in the Realms, and when they make an appearance, but I don't want "oh, I smite your enemies! things are better now!" No, that's not what I was trying to imply. It got kind of old in RotAW when the Chosen (they aren't gods, but same idea) seemed to be able to solve everything. No offense to Ed of Denning, I liked the series, and I like the Chosen, but there comes a point when a character is too uber. Which is why I think there could be a balance. A mortal should have a limit on how much godly power they can handle. A high level cleric would obviously be able to handle more than a novice, but there should still be a limit. But I like scenes between gods, or a god having a chat with his/her follower(s) (for example). I find that interesting. The occasional god battle is okay--for instance I liked Lady Penitent and Empyrean Odyssey, though I had problems with the endings of both of them--but I would want that to be more rare, especially if the end results are the same (the death of one or more deity).
I know you and disagree (strongly) about the gods, but I hope my explanation is a little clearer now. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 06:44:36
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Indeed classical deities are more "human", with their petty rivalries, idiosyncrasies, and misdeeds. In my opinion that's not what we really see with Faerunian deities. At times we see hints of it, we're told of it, but we don't see it shown. The gods make a half-hearted effort to emulate these human shortcomings when the designers and authors remember, some remember better than others.
Instead, what we do see is gods acting inconsistently or foolishly when the metaplot progresses or it comes time for the edition rollover. They misstep when their histories, portfolios, and prior tendencies shows they would act differently. Their human traits (weaknesses) are not ingrained elements in their personalities, but arise on the whim of publication.
There are exceptions, there have been good portrayals of deities in Realms game lore and fiction, but not all of them hold consistent over the years. They remind me of player characters built to archetype (The Warrior, The Magician, The Dark Lord, etc.) who act appropriately when their players remember what they're playing (the serious sessions) but depart from their type when it's a non-serious session.
I think the problem is despite what we know of the gods; portfolios, histories, ranks, stats, we don't know much about their personalities. Certainly not enough of a character described there for a compelling novel character, but they're used over the years for that exact purpose. We end up with these fuzzy caricatures. My impression of them was always as these shallow portfolio mannequins, portfolios wrapped in thin veneers of human-likeness, but who still go off route and not always according to their portfolio "programming" either. If the setting actually developed this treading into the uncanny valley direction, that would actually be an inspired take on deities, but the Realms doesn't go there as far as I've seen.
I can't shake my own perception of the Faerunian deities as these powerful but bland characters. I know I'm not the only one because I've seen this influence games. I've played in a promising FR game, great character creation with backstories and plot hooks discussed with the DM and the group. Guess what the first enemy encounter for our party of 5th level characters was? A nine-foot (maybe it was 12') tall avatar of Mask. After a couple rounds of doing squat to the avatar (a character or two died or where knocked out), equally large avatars of Azuth and Helm teleported in. They talked, Mask teleports away, and the other gods leave afterwards, raising/reviving the dead PCs. I guess it was all for flavor, but players were left scratching their heads. It was bad. Game fell apart after that. Funny thing is the DM is actually a great DM who I played in a two year long campaign with but set in L5R and none of the pantheo-drama. I may be in the minority, but I feel there is "something the water" with the Realms where some games (whatever small percentage) get caught up in the unfortunate precedent established in the novels or sourcebooks regarding deities due to their prevalence and center-stage status. Faerunian deities also reshape the world to a greater degree than most classical myths, but I guess that holds true for fantasy, the Faerunian gods do it frequently though, or at least seem to. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 07:13:29
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Hmm, I can see your point, though I can think of some novels where the deities were portrayed with definite personalities (at least I thought so), and I found them to be engaging. I think some of the deities have been developed more than others. Maybe it would be better if they stopped stealing each other's portfolios, and just stuck with what they have? Ao might take care of that in the Sundering, I don't know.
I don't think a mortal should battle a deity (though that's happened in a few novels too), but I guess that is up to the DM. I only read the novels, so maybe I have some bias on the role of the gods. I don't necessarily want the deities reshaping the world all the time, either (Mystra's dying more than once, for example). I just like their presence, knowing they're in the Realms.Of course I like stories that are just about mortals, but I like the appearance of a deity sometimes, too. They don't have to take center-stage, at least not throughout the whole novel. I think Elaine Cunningham did an excellent job with this in Evermeet: Island of Elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 10:38:36
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There can be a compromise between deities behaving like idiots and raining apocalypses on Toril for the lulz, and gods being random all-powerful entities who sit there doing nothing all day long. They have their goals and personalities and such traits can be played out in non ridiculous ways -actually adding something to the setting-. If the deities were ever distant, their actions ever unfathomable and so on, their clergy could be replaced with some guilds who have the same goal and basically nothing would change, making pantheons somewhat superfluous.
Godly direct presence should be greatly toned down, random dramas should be taken away and mystery should be restored when it comes to such beings, but not to the point where they lose every appealing trait as NPCs, don't do anything ever, and even their existence is nebulous. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Jan 2013 10:40:13 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2013 : 22:59:45
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| I can agree with that. I like the mystery of the deities, too. As I said, I don't want gods coming down to suddenly smite an NPC's enemies and make everything better. But if they could interact and still be present within the Realms, then I'm not asking for deity-centered stories. I thought the way Kemp used Mask in the Twilight Wars was a good balance. Mask himself appeared a few times, but it was Cale and Riven who were the epicenter of the series. They were the ones dealing with his powers. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 00:00:53
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quote:
Dark Wizard (best Sega Genesis game of all time!)
The gods make a half-hearted effort to emulate these human shortcomings when the designers and authors remember, some remember better than others.
...
Instead, what we do see is gods acting inconsistently or foolishly when the metaplot progresses or it comes time for the edition rollover. They misstep when their histories, portfolios, and prior tendencies shows they would act differently. Their human traits (weaknesses) are not ingrained elements in their personalities, but arise on the whim of publication.
...
There are exceptions, there have been good portrayals of deities in Realms game lore and fiction, but not all of them hold consistent over the years.
The gods are immune to edition changes while the rest of the world (and cosmos) is redefined? There is merit to the idea since the gods are fundamental and eternal monolithic pieces of the setting, and they must indeed remain largely static if they are to retain their own identities while ephemeral things like churches, empires, and civilizations (and sometimes continents) all flutter across the centuries. But they must also be dynamic enough to reshape themselves into contemporary expectations; failing to adapt to new sources of faith would diminish the sustenance and power they can access, anonymity is suicide for a god. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Jan 2013 00:08:53 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 07:26:27
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Referring to their 'human' personalities rather than their divine essence. And not across edition changes, but just between cameo appearances or write-ups. My impression of the Faerunian gods is that they're a muddled mess as a pantheon and as gods individually. I feel any supposed human whimsy is due more to inconsistent novel and game book portrayals rather than any innate characteristic of their personalities. It doesn't seem like the result of a concerted efforts by all participants of the shared world, some perhaps.
The more I think about it, the more it seems the Faerunian gods are generally a rather dour, sterile bunch despite what they're described as, what we're told, not shown. We're told XYZ is the hated enemy of ABC because they oppose all they believe, or are allied with DEF because they're of compatible sentiments. That's nice....
We rarely get a glimpse at the emotional implications of these relationships and beliefs. I noticed how some of the most notable events and relationships (with a lot of associated forum chatter) are family based (Corellon-Araushnee-Eilistraee-Vhaeraun or Selune-Shar-Mystra). There are other relationships often up to discussion, such as the Dark Three, Tyche-Tymora-Besheba, and the Triad, etc. These deal with mortals gaining power, deities splitting, and deities in a hierarchy. So something is happening in mini-pantheons, but as a whole they're a fairly bland bunch. They're like office co-workers aligned in factions but without actual cutthroat politics. They just pretend they have a competitive streak when the executives walk by (authors, designers, fans reading the books) so they can pretend they're busy.
I think this is why the whole Tyr-Helm-Tymora situation rang false to me. Even though we know some of the gods involved had prior relationships, Helm with Murdane, Tymora with was it Baravan?, it was never a big issue for the deities, like Lathander and Chauntea are sort of on-again, off-again, call me maybe friends with benefits. For a relationship to reach levels of intensity to reach deicide, well there was a disconnect compared to what I've seen of the pantheon previous (some exceptions aside). Didn't help that some of the more vital moments to reveal more about the gods were relegated to narration or a timeline blurb, not much room for characterization.
The whole pantheon never seemed like hostile office politics or a rowdy family gathering. It felt casual. Aside from a few components, it feels like a group of strangers put in a locale with a list of who they like and hate and they're just going through the motions according to the lists. "I hate you because you are dark and I am light, and now we must fight."
It also doesn't help that the Faerunian deities are reaching comicbook levels of kitsch with the "I was dead but got better" trope. Which is a problem with using using the gods as characters, novel background MacGuffins, and edition transition agents.
It's been some time since I've read up on the Realms deities, but after spending some time skimming other setting's take on gods, many of them leave a stronger impression on me despite my greater exposure to the Realms.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 07:45:15
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| Like what other settings? I've heard of some, but haven't had any real exposure to them, so I'm honestly curious. What are the deities like in some of the other settings? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2013 : 08:58:31
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If we're talking deities with stronger and more evocative relationships, some of the Golarions deities stand out. The setting is still a hodge-podge, so there is a lot comparable to FR. One of the examples that stuck in my mind is Zon Kuthon, despite being a riff on the Hellraiser/Cthulhu vibe. His antagonistic relationship with his half-sister Shelyn caused him to be how he is now. There is a complex interplay with how he is trying to corrupt her and she is trying to redeem/save/restore him. How she took an intelligent weapon from him in the attempt to help him, but the weapon tried to corrupt her as well, but failed thus far. How by his orders Shelyn herself is off limits to his servants or followers, but her followers and worshipers are not. Is there a part of the old good god still in there, or does he just want to save her so he can torture her himself. What the gods are, what they've done, what they feel is apparent, but there is a layer of complexity behind it, we question if there is a chance for redemption for Zon Kuthon, or if he's just too far gone into the deep dark reaches. I only skimmed the entry, but it did catch my eye and I don't even like the concept of Zon Kuthon that much.
Recently, I followed the drafting of the manuscript for the Midgard setting. Reading the final product, it's what 4E Realms should have done with the Faerunian pantheon. Look at some reviews of the book and you will see lots of praise for their gods and pantheon section, other sections as well. We will see some familiar elements, like gods being known by different names to different regions or peoples. Sounds like the Talos/Gruumsh or Selune/Sehinine situation with the Realms, but it kicks it up several notches.
Midgard pantheons are local (regional) affairs. (I remember when this was a suggestion for 4E on the various Realms forums to help FR streamline the reveal of information.) These pantheons are 5-6 gods max with some minor cults (and dark gods). Once the pantheon goes beyond 5, one must fall so another may rise. Some of the gods are possibly neighboring regional deities in a different guise or a different name. That's what the neighbors say, but to you, their gods are the aspects of your own deities. Or depending on the neighbor, some of their gods are just not worth paying any attention to, or they should be feared as monsters, or crushed as abominations, or bound as slaves to your gods.
What is the head of the pantheon in region is just a regular god in another, or a minor one, or a dark god, or a demon, or equated with a unexpected counterpart. A god may be unheard of in one place, fading in another, or the major divine force of yet another kingdom. Some gods are in contention for who is the true version, some are in a struggle for leadership over their own pantheon. The individual pantheons themselves have a historical path through which one can trace vaguely what pantheon they arose from or what pantheon they subsumed. There are inconsistencies and contradictions left purposely but a pattern reaches throughout the whole. Nothing is clear cut, but there is enough to grasp what the larger whole is. If each deity entry is taken for it's own, there is enough to make you feel your patron deity is the one you should be following. All of this wrapped in a relatively slim word count.
This is not to say these pantheons are "better" or have more depth than the Realms deities. The Realms pantheons have a lot written about them and within that volume of material are many wonderful, complex, interesting ideas. The difference I think is these other settings get to the point right out of the gate in their initial CS or with a fairly brief supplement afterwards. With the Realms I might have to dig through two or three books across two or three editions to find those gems. Meanwhile other representations of the deities may vary from the potential offered in those official game write-ups. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 20 Jan 2013 20:41:55 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:02:09
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Oh, I see. I'll agree that you do have to look in several books and more than one edition to get more info on the deities. This all made me think of something that has been speculated here before. Does a deity ever fully die? I suppose if Ao erased their name from the Tablets of Fate that would...or would they? And if a deity has a different aspect based on region/race, if one aspect fades or dies out, how does that affect the rest of the deity? For example, if Talos died/faded, would Gruumsh remain? I suppose if people stopped worshiping Talos but orcs still revered Gruumsh, then Gruumsh would just no longer be known by the name of Talos. I might have just answered my own question lol, but one could expand on it.
Two deities fight, and one kills the other, but how much can a deity really die? We could go in circles about this, of course, but there it is. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:26:47
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| Planescape: Guide to the Astral Plane goes into great detail about "dead" gods. No, they are immortal and cannot truly irrevocably "die". They become dormant, perhaps even manifest unconscious powers as they dream. But some are so mysterious or anonymous, so long forgotten by worshippers long extinct that they retain no awareness, no memory, no identity ... they even lack enough mind and will to be apathetic, they are perhaps truly beyond salvation. If/when they are somehow revived, it is most likely as an entirely "different" god ... so whether they are dead, reawakened, resurrected, reborn, reincarnated, or recycled is a matter of philosophical perspective. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 06:29:09
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| I haven't read anything on Planescape, but thank you for the info! That sheds some light on my speculation. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
A little off-topic...of the off-topicness...but the scene where Mask talks to Shar at the end is one of my most reread parts in the realms. It was such a good scene.
I thought it was good, too, in an unexpected way.
You made me curious. Where would I find that - so I might reread it myself?
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by LastStand
A little off-topic...of the off-topicness...but the scene where Mask talks to Shar at the end is one of my most reread parts in the realms. It was such a good scene.
I thought it was good, too, in an unexpected way.
You made me curious. Where would I find that - so I might reread it myself?
Ergdusch
Pages 330-333 of Shadowrealm by Paul S. Kemp. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 10:28:38
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Thank you, Dennis, for the fast answer.
On topic:
Just killing gods by sword or magic leaves little story plot left to utilize. Therefore, WotC is well adviced to always leave a "trace" of a dead God - as it might be the case with Mask. It is a great epic plot for Dms to use (as well as for WotC to write (yet another) book or edition with a returned God).
However, killing of Gods is not the only possibility to introduce such epic plot to a campaign setting. E.g. the herecy of Amaunator in 3rd. Ed. or the ploting of Iyachtun Xvim in 2. Ed. as well as the resurrection of Bane afterwards were both great story hooks, IMO. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 21 Jan 2013 10:31:41 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 11:09:27
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You're welcome, Ergdusch. That was relatively fast because I happen to be at my library at home. ;) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 13:22:41
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If I stick a sword (or whatever) into a human being (or elf, or dwarf, etc), I can go into town and for few a few gold get the local priest to bring him back.
Now, if I can do that with something that is pretty much on the low end of the celestial food-chain (a mere mortal), why wouldn't you be able to do it with something much more powerful, be if deity, primordial, or whatever?
If a mortal can be brought back ad-infintum, and gods (otherwise known as 'immortals') can die (permanently?), then isn't that rather the opposite of their definitions?
D&D is stupid.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jan 2013 13:23:30 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 13:44:46
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That's why I oft differentiate it with the concepts of killing versus destroying. You normally kill a (human) mortal, leaving his body behind (which can be used as a reanimated tool by any necromancers), and his soul to go to the afterlife. Hence, said mortal still exists, albeit in a different "form." Now, you don't just "kill" a deity if you wish never to see him again---ever. What you do is you destroy him, you burn out every fiber of his divine essence, and search for and annihilate whatever contingencies he has placed across all the planes of existence. Is that possible? Maybe. Some say Leira is definitely, utterly dead. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:31:24
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| I think resurrecting mortals is much simpler than resurrecting gods. Like the difference between fixing a bicycle and fixing a sports car (in some cases a bicycle vs an F-22 Raptor, 747 airliner, or space shuttle). The fundamentals of the simple construct are part of the complex construct, but the complex construct involves complexities entirely absent in the simple construct, different tools and skills to repair, different capabilities and energies to operate. Even the "entry level" demi-semi-quasi-godling motorcycle is vastly more complex than the mortal bicycle, especially when they break. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:38:21
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Yeah, I thought of that as well. Still, my basic premise - 'mortal' vs 'immortal' still holds.
Nothing should ever be completely 'beyond repair', it just takes a LOT more work to get it up and running again. It some cases, you've replaced so much you can pretty-much say its a new thing - like Mytstryl/Mystra/Midnight - but to a mortal, whats the difference? If it looks like Moander, smells like Moander, and acts like Moander, it might as well just be Moander.
Which begs the question, is it ever really the same god? For that matter, is the mortal you rez ever really the same person? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 14:56:25
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Almost the same, but not quite, specially when the resurrected/reincarnated mortal took in a different form. In every transformation, change always occurs. Which reminds me of [spoiler]Miranda and Nakor from Ray Feist's Riftwar books. They're dead, consumed by demons. But those same demons, when destroyed, had their souls recycled in Hell. Said souls bore the "memories" of their most recent preys (probably the doing of the God of Mischieft, I guess). The new demons "grew," and they became aware of Miranda's and Nakor's memories, which eventually gained dominance over them.[/End of spolier]. So basically, they have the bodies and powers of a demon, and the memories, magecraft, and cleverness of their mortal selves. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2013 : 15:13:57
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Sometimes it's technically possible to repair any broken part, even the fabric of the universe itself. But there always comes a practical point where the costs of repair are greater than the costs of replacement. And sometimes things simply cannot be repaired without external aid, which seems to indicate some things in the universe simply cannot be repaired ... or can only be repaired by external agents (who might always produce something undesirable or unrecognizable).
The "nearly-identical-doppleganger" argument can be extended to all sorts of things in physics, magic, philosophy, religion. Every teleport or planeshift might actually swap two (or many) selves through "parallel" universes. An interesting topic in itself, but I don't see how it's relevent here beyond being a distraction. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Jan 2013 15:17:46 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:00:11
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This makes me think of another thread I started on souls. I believe gods have souls, just as mortals do, and some (myself included) have speculated that souls are energy (I've actually read books on this). If that is true, then can you really destroy a soul, since it is energy? Maybe a "destroyed" god would have his/her energy dispersed throughout the Astral Sea, and because it is so widely spread, the god no longer exists in the fact it no longer has a consciousness. It's "godliness" was destroyed, its energy spread out too thinly. This would apply to mortals, too. In the afterlife, souls take humanoid form (at least in fantasy), and gods will take human forms too, forms mortals can understand, but the core, aren't we all energy, at least to an extent?
And since some "dead" gods are adrift in the Astral Sea, then the Astral Plane is kind of like an afterlife for the gods. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 00:42:23
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That's a tough question. I'm limiting my speculation (mostly) to the gods of the Realms.
Some injuries to a god's essence seem to be permanent - like Tyr's severed hand, or Gruumsh's "missing" eye - they apparently never heal regardless how powerful the god might become, over time they become symbols of the god's identity. Schwarzenegger once said "if it bleeds, we can kill it."
Moander is basically an exalted living cancer, a powerful god of living rot and decay, it's possible that he's insane and evil now but was originally a "normal" nature god who somehow became corrupted. Kanchelsis was apparently once Seldarine (or half-Seldarine) but changed into a dual-natured fiendish deity suffering from eternal vampirism. There's even a few ascended lich-deity sorts. Gods seem largely powerless to "heal" themselves of these (not always beneficial or desirable) afflictions.
Shar is apparently motivated by absolute oblivion. Perhaps she alone understands that gods can never truly die so long as anything and anybody in the cosmos continues to exist. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:06:40
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I don't think Mortal Death and God Death is the same. Gods are embodiments of concepts, demigods a mix of concept and mortal, and concepts can't be destroyed, only repressed.
Its why D&D Gods have a prepesity towards resurrection one way or another. Its just about reforming thier essence.
As for souls, I believe Souls in RL, are pure information/imagination, be I believe everything is ultimately information/imagination, only the form changes.
I also believe the personal soul is an echo of a higher soul which does not dwell in the body, and can have many echoes.
Not really relevant to the topic, but since souls were brought up, I chimed in :D |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:12:27
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Not that its much of canon, but in Neverwinter 2 Mask of the Betrayer(MOTB) the god Myrkul was still alive, barely holding on. His consciousness and intellect were still there, and this was because according to some of character's words, as long as a few kept doubts,fears, and mere memory of him, he would always be "alive" like the embers of a fire.
Of course he did create a spirit eating curse to ensure his memory would not be forgotten though, so this hypothesis is further sealed with the death of Kiaransalee, who was utterly destroyed when the high magic ritual performed erased the memory and name of her from all beings. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Edited by - Xar Zarath on 22 Jan 2013 04:13:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2013 : 04:37:58
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@Ayrik: that's a good point about the gods being "maimed" and staying that way. Hmm...I'll have to think about that one.
@Gyor: interesting that you bring up the personal soul being an echo of a higher soul. In Shinto, the native Japanese religion, they believe each person has four parts to a soul, but I won't go into that here. So maybe gods have echoes of souls too, and if one soul "dies", another takes its place. Maybe as long as there is a "whole" soul, that deity would come back/isn't truly dead. I don't know if that is logical (but I guess logic could only apply so much here).
@Xar Zarath: this goes back to whether a god can truly be destroyed, if souls are indeed energy. Maybe as a goddess she was destroyed because the energy was dispersed too much, so there was not enough to form an "entity", if you will. However, erasing her from the memory of everyone does not necessarily make her cease to exist (of course one could start a whole philosophical debate on existence). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mask is Alive?!?!
