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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 12:04:59
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Yeah who wants to watch a movie about prudish elves with terminal brain cancer anyway. 
Though it might win a few awards. |
Edited by - Thauranil on 08 Dec 2012 12:33:11 |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2012 : 18:35:19
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| Thauranil, I'd take that over a 90-minute music video for the latest screamo band. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 04:17:34
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| So wait...Drizzt has a brain tumor because he was prudish towards sex? I know you guys are being humorous, but... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 07:12:43
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It was more "Drizzt is prudish towards sex because he has a brain tumor".
It's something of an inside joke, I suppose. A few friends of mine used to joke around about why Drizzt was the one good drow, having a sense of morality and developing behavior that would be completely contrary to what he was being taught with no real, logical explanation for how some of these ideas came into his head. The only thing we could think of was that he had a likely benign brain tumor that affected his personality.
I come down more on the nurture side of the nature verses nurture debate- not completely, as I think there's a point where we can look at the world around us and make educated decisions on whether or not what we were taught growing up was right or wrong- but reading the dark elf trilogy, Drizzt behavior makes no sense to me, especially his attitude towards sex. The fact that even from a young age he correlated sex with love baffled me. That isn't innate or instinctive, that is learned behavior. If he developed feelings for someone after sleeping with them, that'd be one thing, but to have that preconception all on his own would have to have been taught to him.
And who would teach him that? His sisters would teach him sex was for the benefit of drow females and that he existed to please them if and when they so desired. His brother would tell him sex was only for pleasure. The only conceivable option is Zak, but even then, Zak was carrying on an affair with Malice that was completely devoid of love and only for the pleasure, so that seems rather hypocritical to me.
Granted, I'd probably like Drizzt a lot less if he were as casual about sex as, say, Dahlia is, but the fact that he developed such a prudish attitude in a highly hedonistic society seems rather illogical to me. Of course, the actual reason was because early D&D was fairly black and white'; "goodly" societies possessed morals that were considered good by real world standards, evil societies possessed morals that were completely backwards. Bob wanted Drizzt to be good, so he gave him "good" morals without really explaining how he developed those morals in a society that would be hell bent on stamping them out.
As much as I joke about Drizzt having a brain tumor, I actually think he has some sort of learning disability where he has trouble picking up on social norms intuitively, to where the only reason he's "good" is because he just couldn't "get" drow society. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 10:47:36
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It is true that, logically, Drizzt would have been exposed to sex and taught that it was a way to gain power and such, so his behavior was strange for a drow, but maybe that was the point, since Drizzt was so "special", especially in early D&D? As for nature vs nurture, I believe it is a combination thereof. I think we have "core" selves, so to speak, but we are also certainly shaped by events and circumstances in our lives. But a child can be raised by good, law-abiding parents and still get in trouble and end up in jail. And on the flip side, a child can come from a drug-addled family and sill grow up into a decent person. But that's beside the point.
I personally liked that he waited for love, but it would also have made sense if, say, he was casual about it while living among drow, but once he left that society his attitudes towards it changed. I think that could have been explained better.
Anyway, I'm glad he's not as casual about it as Dahlia...though he's kind of casual about it WITH Dahlia. I swear, if those two aren't fighting monsters, they're having sex--at least until Entreri showed up. (Drizzt says making love but I don't think he loves her. There is even one point where he wonders if it is lovemaking or recreation). But then again, his whole relationship with her irks me, so I guess I'm biased. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 20:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
Thauranil, I'd take that over a 90-minute music video for the latest screamo band.
The problem there is that my hypothetical "Drizzt hack" would probably want to use the latest screamo band album as the soundtrack for said movie about a brain cancer-riddled, prudish elf.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2012 : 23:43:39
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Maybe it boils down to me being a child of a different era, but to me it would have been a more powerful story if Drizzt actually acted like a drow and gradually grew to realize why it was wrong ultimately culminating in his defection instead of being born with his brain wired to a morality completely alien to the world around him.
And of course Drizzt doesn't love Dahlia. He wants to think he does, if only to justify sleeping with her to himself. I don't know if he can really grasp the concept of sleeping with someone without love being involved as it applies to him. He gets that it happens, that other people do it, but he holds himself to such a standard that he thinks love has to be involved whenever he's participating. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 00:52:21
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I think we have enough redeemed drow. That is what made Drizzt unique. He was born not evil. I like that. I believe that was part of his initial charm to the world at large. He was unique.
I like evil characters that are redeemed, and evil characters that are not redeemed.
But, we all like the kind of characters we like.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 03:51:55
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I like that he was different from a start, despite his environment, but I can also see it working where he starts out "drow", if you will, and then seeing it as wrong as he evolved.
Well, I myself love should be involved, I like that Drizzt is the same way. But I think part of my problem is I just don't like Dahlia. Yeah what happened to her was terrible, but it doesn't make me like her. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 04:00:34
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| I think Zak being Drizzt's father explains why he was "different"...there's clearly a strain of drow gene going around Menzo that has a bit of goody goody about it. We haven't heard about all the drow who died by their own family for acting like Drizzt did before their tales could be told. Could be many more of them who weren't saved by Zak or someone like him. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2012 : 22:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Maybe it boils down to me being a child of a different era, but to me it would have been a more powerful story if Drizzt actually acted like a drow and gradually grew to realize why it was wrong ultimately culminating in his defection instead of being born with his brain wired to a morality completely alien to the world around him.
I'm not sure if he was born with it. The first mention of sex that I can recall in Drizzt's life was at his own graduation. He was ~31 years old at that point, and while that's still very young for an elf, it still constitutes sufficient time for him to have learned a moral code.
Drizzt was born different from most drow in terms of him not taking to the matriarchy's insistence upon male submissiveness. He was just too curious and assertive of a male to embrace their teachings all that earnestly, and kept forgetting (or consciously rebelling against) it.
Maybe Zak took advantage of that rebellious streak in his pupil/son and decided to take advantage of it by encouraging Drizzt to rebel even further by taking on a different moral code, as well?
But I don't know if that's even possible, though: to consciously take on an entirely alien moral code just to defy someone else's?
In the RW, some children of staunch conservatives go hyper-liberal, and some children of strongly religious parents embrace militant atheism, in part, out of defiance and rebellion to what they felt were overly strict upbringings. Especially early on in the children's young adult years, it's really difficult to determine to what degree the radical transformation is a sincere ideological, psychical shift, and to what degree it's just an act of petty rebellion.
quote:
I don't know if he can really grasp the concept of sleeping with someone without love being involved as it applies to him. He gets that it happens, that other people do it, but he holds himself to such a standard that he thinks love has to be involved whenever he's participating.
I'm pretty much the same way. I just don't/won't go there, unless there's more to it than the physical act, itself.
Bah, silly romantic idealists, right?! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 00:42:18
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I don't think Drizzt gets all of his moral compass from Zak. I don't remember seeing reading anything that makes Zak a goody goody, more good than the average drow, but not as good as Drizzt is/had been (his compass is a little spinny like Capt Sparrow's at the moment). I believe he might have been encourage to explore his independence when he learns that his son is more akin to his views that anyone else. Perhaps Zak would have been more goody if he had the support of someone like himself? Who knows. I believe Zak supported Drizzt and enabled him to become the Drizzt that was able to leave his home and survive because he knew that a better world was out there.
As far as Drizzt's desire for an emotional connection for intimacy versus just a romp in the hay: I think it is because he craves the actual intimacy, not just the physical sensation. Which is noble, and Drizzt has always been very noble (until the compass when wibble wobbly). Until his world was torn asunder, he has always been very noble and honorable. Even now, he is trying to rationalize how his life is moving and find a noble cause in it (weakly I think).
Now Artemis...he is a romp in the hay kinda guy (though he too had an emotional attachment once....) |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 05:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Maybe it boils down to me being a child of a different era, but to me it would have been a more powerful story if Drizzt actually acted like a drow and gradually grew to realize why it was wrong ultimately culminating in his defection instead of being born with his brain wired to a morality completely alien to the world around him.
I'm not sure if he was born with it. The first mention of sex that I can recall in Drizzt's life was at his own graduation. He was ~31 years old at that point, and while that's still very young for an elf, it still constitutes sufficient time for him to have learned a moral code.
Drizzt was born different from most drow in terms of him not taking to the matriarchy's insistence upon male submissiveness. He was just too curious and assertive of a male to embrace their teachings all that earnestly, and kept forgetting (or consciously rebelling against) it.
Maybe Zak took advantage of that rebellious streak in his pupil/son and decided to take advantage of it by encouraging Drizzt to rebel even further by taking on a different moral code, as well?
But I don't know if that's even possible, though: to consciously take on an entirely alien moral code just to defy someone else's?
In the RW, some children of staunch conservatives go hyper-liberal, and some children of strongly religious parents embrace militant atheism, in part, out of defiance and rebellion to what they felt were overly strict upbringings. Especially early on in the children's young adult years, it's really difficult to determine to what degree the radical transformation is a sincere ideological, psychical shift, and to what degree it's just an act of petty rebellion.
I wasn't just talking about him being born with his views on sex so much as his views on morality in general. I get that he gets some of that from Zak and Zak's teachings, but it still never seemed enough to justify the person Drizzt turned into. I'm sure Zak wanted to raise his son not necessarily to rebel, but to resist the strict matriarchy, but at the same time to exist and survive in it. I've never gotten the impression that Zak thought his son running away was an option, so he'd want him to be able to survive in drow society, and yet in the Dark Elf Trilogy(and I'm going off memory here) Drizzt seemed completely oblivious to his own culture's social norms. He didn't read like a cultural rebel, he read like someone with traditional human values transplanted into this horrific world and being completely shocked and baffled by what was going on around him.
The problem with the nature vs nurture/rebel child analogies in Drizzt situation is that when that child that's raised in the ultra-conservative family switches to hyper-liberalism, it's because they've been exposed to hyper-liberalism though media or experience, and either found it to be a refreshing change or a convenient way to stick it to their parents. Drizzt went in the completely opposite direction of drow society without being exposed to anything but drow society. He had Zak, that was about it, and Zak certainly wasn't teaching him to be a paladin.
quote:
I don't know if he can really grasp the concept of sleeping with someone without love being involved as it applies to him. He gets that it happens, that other people do it, but he holds himself to such a standard that he thinks love has to be involved whenever he's participating.
I'm pretty much the same way. I just don't/won't go there, unless there's more to it than the physical act, itself.
Bah, silly romantic idealists, right?!
[/quote]
I guess I'm the odd one out here; I personally view sex as an act between two people for mutual pleasure. It can be an expression of love, and is excellent when it is, but there's nothing inherently wrong with sex without love so long as it's between two consenting adults done in a healthy, responsible manner. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 06:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I don't think Drizzt gets all of his moral compass from Zak. I don't remember seeing reading anything that makes Zak a goody goody, more good than the average drow, but not as good as Drizzt is/had been (his compass is a little spinny like Capt Sparrow's at the moment). I believe he might have been encourage to explore his independence when he learns that his son is more akin to his views that anyone else. Perhaps Zak would have been more goody if he had the support of someone like himself? Who knows. I believe Zak supported Drizzt and enabled him to become the Drizzt that was able to leave his home and survive because he knew that a better world was out there.
I'm not trying to say that Zak's own personal morals rubbed off onto Drizzt.
Zak was very morally compromised. He knew Menzo was wrong, but for some reason, he felt trapped by it, so then he decided that doing the bidding of the matron mother could actually be justified and rationalized. He felt he had a moral duty to kill on a large scale. He was like a serial killer with a social cause.
What I'm saying is that Zak seems to have taught morals to Drizzt that Zak, himself, may not have fully believed and lived, himself. Zak probably did this to give Drizzt a better chance that he ever had, himself.
Recall the scene wherein House Do'Urden joins the other Houses to watch another House get exterminated by the Academy. Zak was chattering away with Drizzt during the proceedings, but when Malice and Briza told them to shut up, Zak smacked Drizzt over the head and blamed it all on him. This kinda reads as sophomoric silliness. But it also could be indicative that Zak held Drizzt to a higher standard than he did, himself.
The irony is that by supporting Drizzt's moral growth, Zak tragically pushed his son away. By encouraging Drizzt's strength in conviction, he inspired Drizzt to leave even him. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 06:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I get that he gets some of that from Zak and Zak's teachings, but it still never seemed enough to justify the person Drizzt turned into.
What if Zak were a bit hypocritical, and effectively ended up teaching his son to be even more moral than him? He could've facilitated Drizzt's own moral reasoning, while knowing full well that he would never live up to those same ideals, himself.
And Drizzt has remembered him fondly, naively, ever since.
quote:
I'm sure Zak wanted to raise his son not necessarily to rebel, but to resist the strict matriarchy, but at the same time to exist and survive in it. I've never gotten the impression that Zak thought his son running away was an option, so he'd want him to be able to survive in drow society,
Aye, that was Zak's intention. He taught morals to Drizzt in order to give him a foundation or rationale from which to resist the matriarchy from within drow society. He never thought that he, himself, would be able to escape Menzo, so he couldn't fathom Drizzt doing it either.
But apparently, he taught morals to Drizzt too well. His teachings had some sort of cascade-effect, chain reaction, and kept growing, and growing . . .  
quote:
and yet in the Dark Elf Trilogy(and I'm going off memory here) Drizzt seemed completely oblivious to his own culture's social norms. He didn't read like a cultural rebel, he read like someone with traditional human values transplanted into this horrific world and being completely shocked and baffled by what was going on around him.
Yeah, and part of that could be attributed to plain ol' bad writing. All too often, writers (of movies, especially) bring the audience into a strange new world by having them watch a young person of that world or recently hired employee of an organization plunge into a new fictional environment, and learn the ropes. The protagonist is deliberately portrayed like a fish out of water, precisely as the moviemakers think the audience members would be, if they were suddently transported into the fictional world. But usually, the moviemakers dumb the protagonist down far too much, in order to create artificial conflict and drama. (Recall how Avatar pulled out a lame excuse to drop a non-scientist Marine right into the middle of an extremely ambitious, highly complicated military scientific project.)
In order to maximize the fish-out-of-water experience for the audience, I guess Bob deliberately made Drizzt as atypical as possible, as well.
quote:
The problem with the nature vs nurture/rebel child analogies in Drizzt situation is that when that child that's raised in the ultra-conservative family switches to hyper-liberalism, it's because they've been exposed to hyper-liberalism though media or experience, and either found it to be a refreshing change or a convenient way to stick it to their parents. Drizzt went in the completely opposite direction of drow society without being exposed to anything but drow society. He had Zak, that was about it, and Zak certainly wasn't teaching him to be a paladin.
I don't think we really know what Zak taught Drizzt, exactly. We're told that they shared the same values, but we don't to what extent each believed and lived those values.
My guess is that Zak taught Drizzt to be a better man than he himself ever was, and then it backfired on Zak when Drizzt wanted to fly the coop.
Drizzt effectively had a closeted gay Log Cabin Republican uncle open his eyes to a way of rebelling against the system from the inside.  But Drizzt just decided to change parties, altogether!
quote:
I guess I'm the odd one out here; I personally view sex as an act between two people for mutual pleasure. It can be an expression of love, and is excellent when it is, but there's nothing inherently wrong with sex without love so long as it's between two consenting adults done in a healthy, responsible manner.
Oh, I agree with you that there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
I was just saying that, like Drizzt of old, I won't go there, myself. I hold myself to that higher standard, for lack of a better turn of phrase.
However, as I also mentioned before, Drizzt used to take it to an extreme level, in which he seemed to view desire and passion with disdain. He didn't show any sort of lightheartedness about the subject at all, as if sex were inherently evil or something.
That's like crappy pop-psychology-based slasher-movie fare. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 13 Dec 2012 06:46:35 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 07:40:43
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quote:
Yeah, and part of that could be attributed to plain ol' bad writing. All too often, writers (of movies, especially) bring the audience into a strange new world by having them watch a young person of that world or recently hired employee of an organization plunge into a new fictional environment, and learn the ropes. The protagonist is deliberately portrayed like a fish out of water, precisely as the moviemakers think the audience members would be, if they were suddently transported into the fictional world. But usually, the moviemakers dumb the protagonist down far too much, in order to create artificial conflict and drama. (Recall how Avatar pulled out a lame excuse to drop a non-scientist Marine right into the middle of an extremely ambitious, highly complicated military scientific project.)
In order to maximize the fish-out-of-water experience for the audience, I guess Bob deliberately made Drizzt as atypical as possible, as well.
There's nothing wrong with having an audience surrogate, it is one of the better ways to easy the unfamiliar into this alien world you're writing about. People who were intimately familiar with drow culture from being D&D fans may not have needed it, but people who were picking up the books as their first entry into D&D/Realms fiction would.
The problem is that you cannot have the audience surrogate be native to this strange world you've made because it stretches believablilty. It makes Drizzt look like an idiot to have lived so long in this culture and learned so little about it.
I don't have a problem with atypical characters. I don't have a problem with Drizzt as a concept or good drow in general, so long as it's done well and in a believable fashion. I don't like Drizzt because I don't believe Drizzt.
I think part of the problem is that Bob has, in his mind, a very clear definition of what is good, what is evil, and what does and doesn't qualify as a hero, and he's chosen Drizzt to embody what he believes is a true hero. The only thing wrong with that is that he chose to make Drizzt a drow and chose to have him grow up in drow society. If he were a drow raised by elves, or something, that'd have been fine. But you don't get to grow up in drow society and live up to the ideals that RA Salvatore considers to be hero material. You don't get to walk through that muck and mire and come out squeaky clean.
quote:
I don't think we really know what Zak taught Drizzt, exactly. We're told that they shared the same values, but we don't to what extent each believed and lived those values.
My guess is that Zak taught Drizzt to be a better man than he himself ever was, and then it backfired on Zak when Drizzt wanted to fly the coop.
Drizzt effectively had a closeted gay Log Cabin Republican uncle open his eyes to a way of rebelling against the system from the inside. But Drizzt just decided to change parties, altogether!
It's true we don't know exactly what Zak taught Drizzt; you can't put ten years worth of interaction to paper and expect people to have time to read it. What I'd infer from Zak's personality and his apparent intentions with Drizzt would be that he'd try to impart him with a certain level of savvy-ness so that he could resist the matron's influence while still surviving under it; of course, Drizzt's personality completely conflicts with that inference as savvy is one word that doesn't define Drizzt at all. Even in Charon's Claw, it's Artemis who talks them out of trouble with the drow; Drizzt honestly has no idea how to act around his own people.
If I were to compare Drizzt to any other character in fiction, it would probably be Temprence Brennan from the TV show Bones; Temprence is a genius, but she has social disorders that prevent her from grasping the social norms of american society. She's able to learn other society's norms and cultures perfectly because she learns them formally, where as she'd be expected to pick up the nuances of her own culture intuitively.
Where this breaks down is how they react towards their respective native societies. Where as Temprence dismisses social norms when deemed illogical, Drizzt's problems with his society are, for the most part, moral. Personally I don't believe we're born with hardwired moral preconceptions; reactions are different. I'd believe it more if Drizzt did bad things and instinctively felt bad about them afterwards, but I don't buy Drizzt realizing something is wrong before he does it without someone teaching him he should feel that way.
Tying that last point in to Drizzt's views on sex again, I'm going to bring up the scene from Homeland where he had his first sexual close encounter. A (stoned out of her mind) newly graduated priestess makes advances on him, and he runs away to hide in another room. His sister follows, figures he just wants some privacy, comes onto him, he rebukes her as well(this point I'm less skeptical about as she's the one who raised him and imprinting has real science behind it). Shocked, she informs him that he literally does not have the right to refuse a priestess of Lolth and could be put to death for doing so- why he hadn't already been told this at some point in his 31ish years of life is beyond me, but ok. His rebuttle is that he can't have sex with her because he "cares nothing for her!"
That line right there is what I've been talking about this whole time. Whatever one's personal views on sex and love and how they relate to each other are, I refuse to believe that someone independently and spontaneously develops the concept of sex equaling love without being taught that.
If he had had sex with the priestess, developed feelings for her, and been spurned when he learned she felt nothing for him, that'd be something. If he had sex with the priestess and felt a dissatisfied emptiness, as if there should be something more to it than the shallow, hedonistic act he had partaken in, that'd be something.
But this idea, that you should only have sex with someone you care about, this preconception, is rooted so firmly in Drizzt that it overrides any sense of self preservation and very nearly costs him his life. There is no explanation for where he would have developed this belief. No one he knew, no one he had ever met would have taught him this.
I think part of what annoys me about it is that not only does Drizzt present this inexplicable ideal, but he isn't forced to compromise it. It's as though the only reason he has it is so he can be shown defying another aspect of drow society and living to tell about it. I don't know if that's true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 12:09:36
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You make a good point Chosen of Asomendus, especially about the orgy scene that you described. It makes even less sense when we consider the fact that Drizzt was in his early teens, by drow standards , at that time and had grown up in a society in which sexual mores were extremely relaxed.
However a possible explanation is that he was merely instinctively rebelling against a society he despised and doing so by behaving in the most extreme manner possible in Menzobarranzan , by being a complete and utter goody two shoes.
Also it is hinted often in the novels that he is the Chosen of some God or Goddess so perhaps divine influence also has some role to play. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 20:22:59
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| Okay, that is definitely something I don't remember o.O he's the Chosen of a god? *blink* Mielikki perhaps, even though at the time he didn't even know about her? Hmm... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 20:49:58
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Fans have speculated that he's Mielikki's chosen for years now as a way of explaining away his amazing luck and combat prowess. Personally I don't buy it as I've never thought of him as a particularly good follower of hers; nothing he's ever done has been in her name or to further her goals. For the most part it's been for either his own self interest or the good of his immediate friends, not the greater good of the world, and when it has been for the greater good, it's been in the interests of civilization, where as Mielikki is a goddess of the wilds.
Assuming it's true, though, I find the idea of him being born as such, or chosen before he left drow society, utterly absurd, but what're you gonna do.
There is another theory that he might actually be a chosen of Lolth due to speculation by that drow priestess in the Hunter's Blades trilogy who's name I can't remember about how he spreads chaos wherever he goes. Again, it's never been confirmed and having a god's favor isn't the same as being a god's chosen(though this would nicely explain how he was able to fight on equal terms with a chosen of Gruumsh).
Again, though, while I can see Lolth doing that to screw with her own people(it is her favorite hobby, after all), I don't see her making him a prude; Lolth's a hedonist at heart. If she were influencing Drizzt, he'd be a complete slut. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 23:16:03
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I don't think Drizzt is Chosen of anyone. He is an awesome ranger (even Artemis will defer to him in the wilds). He just happens to roll a lot of nat 20's (until recently that is, but I think that is because of his mental state).
If I remember the orgy scene at his graduation, I believe he was disgusted by the whole spectacle. The summoning of demons for sex by the priestesses, the heavy mild altering incense, etc. And he did have a decent sense of focus and disliked the way the incense was making him feel. That revulsion of the whole thing would preclude him to reject any advances given his morality already in place.
And then to be ridiculed? If he was weak willed, he might have caved, but instead he became more resilient on the matter. He is very stubborn.
But besides that, I know some men that have this idea and learned it from no where specific. Some people are just romantic like that.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2012 : 23:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I don't think Drizzt is Chosen of anyone. He is an awesome ranger (even Artemis will defer to him in the wilds). He just happens to roll a lot of nat 20's (until recently that is, but I think that is because of his mental state).
If I remember the orgy scene at his graduation, I believe he was disgusted by the whole spectacle. The summoning of demons for sex by the priestesses, the heavy mild altering incense, etc. And he did have a decent sense of focus and disliked the way the incense was making him feel. That revulsion of the whole thing would preclude him to reject any advances given his morality already in place.
And then to be ridiculed? If he was weak willed, he might have caved, but instead he became more resilient on the matter. He is very stubborn.
But besides that, I know some men that have this idea and learned it from no where specific. Some people are just romantic like that.
And if he had blamed it all on revulsion with the goings on around him and feeling ill due to the intoxicating nature of the incense, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that's not what he specifically pointed out as his reason for refusal.
And I'll concede it's possible for people to come to this idea on their own, there still has to be outside influence. Maybe not specific influence, like a teacher or a parent or a religious leader telling them, but a cultural influence. We live in a culture where a vast variety of ideas are thrown out in the open with easy access through various media. All but the most sheltered and isolated children have experience with the world outside of their families and are able to formulate their own ideas based off of that.
Drizzt grew up in a world that was designed to brainwash him into being a terrible person. The concept of sex equaling love simply would not have been present in drow society. It's not something he would have read about, not something he would have overheard, it's not something they have a word for in their language. It's not something he would have picked up from cultural osmosis because it's not something that exists in his culture.
And there's an easy fix for this; give Drizzt a little more worldliness. Have him experience, even at a glimpse, cultures outside of the drow so he has something to contrast them against. Because without that foil, everything around him should simply be seen as normal. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 02:04:45
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I think everyone is overlooking one simple explaination for his moral compass- it was indeed Zak, who even (to himself, at least) asked the question "Menzoberranzan, what hell are you?" He knew darn well the kind of world he lived in, and he did it with eyes wide open. In ten years of training, he most certainly could have imparted those same ideals to Drizzt. And there IS precedent for Drizzt equating sex with love- again, from Zak. He is stated as having once cared for Malice during their previous partnership while he was House Patron. When she dismissed him, he still had feelings for her, and even when she sacrificed him, she seemed to have second thoughts, or at least regretted the loss of a pleasing lover. So clearly, they had a relationship that while not "normal" was as close to it as drow ever get. Drizzt obviously picked up on this, or perhaps Zak taught him this during their training sessions. At the very least, they must have discussed it.
There is also the little matter of the story about the dagger that he retrieved- then lost again- and Drizzt himself ended up "finding" and unknowingly handing over to Lolth herself! I believe this is where the idea of him being in her favor comes from, ultimately. When the priestess hinted at it, the seeds were already there in that short story. So there is clearly some precedent for it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 05:18:43
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Bah! I had a long response typed up, but my 'puter erased all of my comments and returned everything back to the original quotes from COA. I'm too tired to re-type it, tonight.
But for now, I think Zak was the source for all of Drizzt's ethics, even though Zak chose to compromise his own personal ethics and to live within House Do'Urden and traditional drow culture.
It's odd that Drizzt was allowed to get away with his heretical code of honor throughout his 10 years in the Academy. Having two older siblings on the faculty could only protect him so much, and for long.
So it seems that he would've had to have had some sort of extraordinary additional protective forces on his side. We can chuck that up as plot armor. Or we can rumor about him being blessed or chosen, to help explain it. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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piratebbbb
Acolyte
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 05:18:44
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| New member here, thought I'd throw my two cents in despite not being as well-read or thorough in explaining my own ideas. But maybe Zak imparted his ideals onto Drizzt. Maybe Drizzt was simply born more sensitive to the emotional content of life. However, I personally agree with a few other drow renegades that Drizzt is favored by Lolth. What better way to cause mass chaos in a civilization than to place a drow with non-drow ways and bless him with some of the greatest swordplay skills in the mortal realms? Everywhere he goes chaos follows. The drow have been consistently looking to expand Lolth's domain to the surface.. Hasn't Drizzt brought chaos to the surface. Getting back to the current point. Drizzt's views on sex and love are so far from the culture he grew up in that it had to come from an outside source. Zak didn't fully understand what he felt for Malice (basing this off of something I read in the forums referring to the drow not having a word for love or something similar), and it's very difficult to impart a feeling to someone if you don't even know what the feeling really is. So I'm suggesting, similar to what is referenced in the books, that Lolth/Lloth has an interest in Drizzt's existence, and is even now contributing to the chaos he inevitably produces (his current love life and how conflicted he is about literally everything near or about him). |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 05:49:29
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Welcome to the Keep :)
Ah, man, if Lolth favors Drizzt that just adds a whole new level--one I'm not sure I like, though I can see the reasoning behind it. Him being the chosen of a god isn't out of the realm of possibility, and considering the gods are one of my favorite attributes of the Realms, I'm not against the idea...unless it's Lolth! And, as I've pointed out several times before (though I had completely forgotten about it until someone pointed it out to me), Zak's spirit is in a good place, as he informed Drizzt (COA I know you don't like that fact, but bear with me lol), and I bring it up because in spite of some of his actions, in the end Zak was redeemed and his spirit wasn't compromised, so Lolth "skipped" him and choose his son, if Drizzt is indeed favored by her. On the other, you have the Eilistraeen's, who are good--granted a lot of them were converts, but there are those who were born into the faith. But you could argue that they are good because they were raised under the teachings of a benevolent goddess. Maybe Eilistraee chose Drizzt--that would be a jab at her mother haha! It's unlikely, but hey.
Zak naturally had some influence on Drizzt, and I agree with BEAST in that Zak was compromising himself and his ethics for the sake of Drizzt. He couldn't be what he wanted to be--for whatever reason--but he wanted his son to be that way. This is far beyond the realm of, well, the Realms, but it's like in Toni Morrison's book Beloved; Sethe was humiliated and defiled, but she was determined not to have that happen to her children. Zak, I believe, viewed himself as a coward and trapped in drow society, but he wanted his son to be what he couldn't be. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 05:50:07
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Welcome to the Keep :)
Ah, man, if Lolth favors Drizzt that just adds a whole new level--one I'm not sure I like, though I can see the reasoning behind it. Him being the chosen of a god isn't out of the realm of possibility, and considering the gods are one of my favorite attributes of the Realms, I'm not against the idea...unless it's Lolth! And, as I've pointed out several times before (though I had completely forgotten about it until someone pointed it out to me), Zak's spirit is in a good place, as he informed Drizzt (COA I know you don't like that fact, but bear with me lol), and I bring it up because in spite of some of his actions, in the end Zak was redeemed and his spirit wasn't compromised, so Lolth "skipped" him and choose his son, if Drizzt is indeed favored by her. On the other, you have the Eilistraeen's, who are good--granted a lot of them were converts, but there are those who were born into the faith. But you could argue that they are good because they were raised under the teachings of a benevolent goddess. Maybe Eilistraee chose Drizzt--that would be a jab at her mother haha! It's unlikely, but hey.
Zak naturally had some influence on Drizzt, and I agree with BEAST in that Zak was compromising himself and his ethics for the sake of Drizzt. He couldn't be what he wanted to be--for whatever reason--but he wanted his son to be that way. This is far beyond the realm of, well, the Realms, but it's like in Toni Morrison's book Beloved; Sethe was humiliated and defiled, but she was determined not to have that happen to her children. Zak, I believe, viewed himself as a coward and trapped in drow society, but he wanted his son to be what he couldn't be. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 07:22:49
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You know, I hope when 5e rolls around they finally let RAS write some of the prequel stuff he wants to do, like the Jarlaxle/Zak story everyone's been clamoring for for years.
And I would like to see him work in the story of how Zak and Malice got together and how he developed feelings for her. I would like to see him try to make that a convincing, believable story.
Because on paper, Twilight is more believable than that.
And romantic or not, Zak teaching his son the "only have sex with a woman if you care for her" strikes me as wildly irresponsible; he's essentially signing the kid's death warrant in drow society. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
Edited by - Chosen of Asmodeus on 14 Dec 2012 07:34:13 |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 14:12:03
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I am intrigue by Artemis Entreri being just shade of grey (dark) and the same goes with Drzzt.
In truth I may not like Dahlia much but she did bring much needed attention to the Thay.
I would like to see is Drzzt running into goodly Drow just see how he reacts but somehow a Drow being prude unless raised by another group is a bit farfetched. Lloth does not value virgins in the Drow society. The Drow society is not only group is like this in their views on sex. Why is Drzzt is the exception to societal norm in Drow. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2012 : 23:44:35
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| Jarlaxle was brought up in Menzo too, and he's not such a bad egg. Well, relatively. I think there are probably more drow like Drizzt, Zak and Jarlaxle, but they don't survive long enough to make any stories known about them. |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2012 : 00:55:47
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| I actually like Jarlaxle more than Drzzt. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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