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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 03:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Drizzt had his "period of darkness" in HB trilogy, he doesn't need it again. [...] Drizzt is no longer Drizzt to me, and I'm aware others like the current path he's on, but I do not. I miss the old Drizzt, and I'd still like to know what the prologue and epilogue in the OK, but then again, RAS will probably kill those characters, since he seems to be on a killing spree lately...
[...] Drizzt was a different drow, and he stood for a lot (just like Eilistraee and her followers).
Are you so sure? What time of his life are you referring to, and to which you want him to return?
Yes, he has always been basically good.
But in Homeland, he almost killed that little elf girl. He almost let himself fall for the drow propaganda, and he almost let himself do the unconscionable in the heat of the moment while overcome with the passion of collective bloodlust.
And in The Crystal Shard, when Kessell's monstrous scouts struck the first blows against dwarves of Clan Battlehammer, Drizzt boldly strode out onto the battlefield, eagerly trying to use his racial reputation to intimidate the giants and orcs. When Wulfgar reminded his mentor of the wisdom of strategy and the use of cover, Drizzt rejected that as trivial theory, and deliberately sought out personal vengeance. He didn't wring his hands or write in his journal. He kicked arse, and his little purple eyes glowed with delight for it. (And so did this reader's blue eyes.)
There have been fans amongst us who have asked Bob to bring that Drizzt back.
However, 'twould seem that Bob has decided to go in a different direction. Drizzt is darker now, and a bit less introspective. (He's down to only two diary entries per book, now!) But it's not the same. He's angry. He doesn't do it gleefully. He just does it to mask the pain.
And I'm OK with that. I think it's perfectly understandable, given what he's been through.
It is weird that Wulfgar only really got 2 or 3 books to slum it after his Abyssal ordeal, but Drizzt is getting 4 and counting. Yes, Drizzt has been through hell. But Wulfgar literally went through the Hells!
So again, what exactly is it that you want Drizzt to return to?
quote:
I know this sounds like I'm ridiculing Salvatore, and I don't mean to, because I have great respect for him, but Drizzt just isn't the same to me. I understand people change, and he is likely trying to show that, but personally, it's not one I like.
Hey, like I said, I took up a lot of other fans' war cry on his own boards and called for more The Crystal Shard-style Drizzt. (Remember him skewering that mutton leg with his dagger in the middle of the verbeeg kitchen? And cursing the loss of such a fine meal when that same mutton leg fell to the floor?) Those were the good ol' days!
So I can understand feeling that something's wonky about Drizzt, right now.
But I still empathize and sympathize with Drizzt, even though I don't agree with him. I can understand Bob's decision to go this route with him. I don't hate it, or expect a rapid resolution to it so we can get back to happy-happy fun times.
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I'd like to see him reunited with Guen, and being the sap that I am, I'd like him to be with Catti again. Let Entreri and Dahlia be together. Dahlia's just turned Drizzt into a lusty, bitter drow (though granted he's been bitter since the Spellplague). If/when RAS kills Drizzt, I hope he is reunited with CotH, at least Catti. There was so much build up to their relationship, they were together for two books, and then zap! Catti-brie dies.
Hey, I like all that, too. It warms my cockles.
Bruenor Battlehammer is my favorite character of all time. It sucks what happened. Yeah, it was epic, the way it went down. But I still hated reading that. You know what my first word was when reviewing Gauntlgrym on Bob's site? "Damn!!!" I miss the hell out of my favorite dwarf. And I admit that there's a cheap temptation to get him back through whatever cheat Bob has up his sleeve.
Nevertheless, I don't want to read it if Bob can't make it plausible and fitting, in-world. I don't want a forced return and reunion, if it's obvious.
There should be consequences to things. And bad things should happen even to good people, in the Realms. Yeah, it sucks, but it's reality, and it makes for better drama than a cartoon where everything always manages to work out in the end, because good guys always win. I know that Bob wants Drizzt to be the dashing hero who never crosses the line, and I get why. But I think Drizzt can actually be more heroic by enduring real loss and struggling through it, and getting a bloody nose and a helluva lot of confusion along the way, than he ever could by simply mowing down villains, or merely having his lost family members dropped back in his lap.
That passage in The Ghost King in which Drizzt acknowledges that he had always harbored a bit of arrogance that the Companions would pull through anything, and that he was being laid low by the Spellplague speaks volumes to me. The hard lessons he learned there should not be undone, or even watered down and softened. That was a huge paradigm shift in Drizzt's life! Let it be. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 21:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Euranna
I think there is more to tell in Drizzt's story. I don't think it has gone on too long. He is not a 2D character in my head. I like that he is growing (not how he is growing). I am hoping for a redemption of sorts. For him to realize how much his new "allies" (in the truly drow sense of the word) are opposed to all he has lived his life believing. I like Drizzt to be a goody too shoes. I like my D&D to be good versus evil. Some grey is okay..but I love my heros to be heros and my villains to be villains. I am a traditionalist. 
No, he isn't 2D, and yes, he is growing, and I agree with you on your other points  Gray can be interesting, because it makes for good twists (I also like evil not just for evil's sake), but I like traditional fantasy too. Which is why I think the Drizzt series should have ended with Hunter's Blades, with a few tweaks to make it more of an ending, so maybe one more book, because Wulfgar wanted to rescue Cottie, and there were a few other things that needed to be addressed. I think Drizzt's redemption with Ellifein should have been part of the book instead of just a short story.
@BEAST: I'm referring to pre-Spellplague Drizzt. You make a lot of good points. I can see where you're coming from, and yes, Drizzt has had his "moments". He is drow, after all! People do change, and yes, good things happen to bad people, even in fantasy. I'm not saying bad things shouldn't happen to Drizzt. That would be boring. I like conflict as much as the next person. I put my characters throuh hell all the time. Drizzt has been through some rough times, and they are going to affect him. He -almost- killed Ellifain (sp?), but he saved her life instead. He's fought his whole life against his heritage, and that's one of the things, at least to me, that makes him so iconic. I like drow, and I like the non-Drizzt kind too (Liriel, Jarlaxle, Phaeraun, Valas, etc). But I miss the Icewind Drizzt, the Legacy of the Drow Drizzt. Anything before Ghost King, really. He's not perfect, and I don't want him to be perfect. It is inevitable that he'll change, I just don't like HOW he's changed.
I like Entreri (I used to hate him, but he grew on me in Sellswords, when we really got the chance to see his life), but I do not like Dahlia. Elves are my favorite race, but she is one I do not really care for. What happened to her was terrible, and she has had a brutal life. But it doesn't mean I like her. I don't think Drizzt really loves her, not like he loved Catti-brie. He waited for Catti, not taking another lover (some might speculate that he and Alustriel were together for a time, but I'm not so sure). I don't think he loves Dahlia like he did Catti, but they're lovers anyway. They aren't -in love- though, at least that's not the impression I got.
I'll admit it, I'm an idealist, so that's one of the reasons I'm so disappointed in the way things have gone with the series. Unless things change, it will be hard for me to go back and read the earlier Drizzt books because I know they'll lose their flavor, and he won't be the Drizzt I love. But, since you're practically the encyclopedia of Drizzt knowledge, BEAST (and I mean that as a compliment ) you probably see something I don't. The books have just lost their flavor for me, but I'll still read them in the hopes they'll improve--and because I want to know what happens. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 06:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@BEAST: I'm referring to pre-Spellplague Drizzt.
That's a long span of time, there. Drizzt went through several different phases in his life during that stretch. He changed a lot. I was intrigued to follow along with the changes, as a recognizable, realistic emotional process carried out on the pages of a fantasy fiction tale. But I didn't like all the individual changes. Drizzt's long-running guilt-trips over bringing danger to his friends, and his hand-wringing over the idea of having a relationship with Cat just annoyed me! But still, I could buy the idea why Drizzt would feel those ways, given what had happened to him.
And that's also how I feel about him now. I don't like everything about him, either, but I buy why he is the way he is. He strikes me as a realistic character, even though he is of a fantasy race/species.
Just some speculation here, but maybe your real angst is toward the Spellplague, itself? That's what actually led to these changes in Drizzt. And the fact that WOTC imposed the Plague led to RAS writing these particular changes in Drizzt.
Either way, I don't feel upset with Drizzt, because he's not to blame, and neither is Bob. Drizzt's slumming it with ne'er-do-wells seems to fit, in my mind, so I continue to read along with interest.
quote:
He -almost- killed Ellifain (sp?), but he saved her life instead. He's fought his whole life against his heritage, and that's one of the things, at least to me, that makes him so iconic.
Ah, but there were times when he didn't fight against it quite so adamantly, though, and that's when he was the most interesting, to me.
In Homeland, he nearly killed that elf girl because he didn't even fully realize that he was fighting his heritage, yet. He knew something was off about his race, but he couldn't quite identify it. He wasn't paladin-Drizzt, as he has come to be known in the years since. He was very much a confused drow. And so, during the raid on the surface elves, he wasn't able to fully separate himself from the sick ways of his fellow drow, but got caught up in the moment, and almost let himself do something unspeakable.
And I liked his depiction in The Crystal Shard because he still seemed to have a bit of that drow identity in him. He got pissed off at his enemies, and even at some stupidity in his student Wulfgar, and he found irony during battle and was flippant about some things. He didn't come off as over-analytical or brooding, at that point. He still seemed a bit dangerous and mysterious, making the Ten-Townsmen's fears of him somewhat justified.
But we lost all that, as he mellowed out and went all Zen on us. As he became more of a warrior-poet, he lost most of the edge that he had had in those particular early books.
And even then, I still followed along gladly, because the changes he continued to go through more or less made sense, given his experiences. I didn't bemoan the fact that he had changed from the earlier version which I had liked the most. (Well, at least I didn't bemoan it much!)
quote:
It is inevitable that he'll change, I just don't like HOW he's changed.
[...]
I'll admit it, I'm an idealist, so that's one of the reasons I'm so disappointed in the way things have gone with the series.
There's nothing wrong with having your own personal preference for a beloved character. I certainly would never fault you, for that. In this particular case, Bob has clearly written a lot of Drizzt tales with the dark elf ranger being an overtly heroic, archetypal good guy. And Bob has explained that Drizzt is quintessentially goodly precisely because Bob has tended to hate blurring the lines between good and evil in the past, so he wanted to keep it clear with his main character. Thus, I completely get why you have loved the quasi-paladin role that Drizzt had assumed by 3E.
But I have rarely read the Drizzt stories with a mind toward projecting my personal preferences onto them. I just read what Bob writes, and ask myself whether what is written makes sense, given what Drizzt has been through. It usually does, IMO. And that's good enough, for me.
It's more than that, though. It's that the overall character arc that Drizzt Do'Urden has gone through feels realistic and believable and true, to me. Most of the time, I can easily visualize how a thinking, feeling person could/would react to things the way Drizzt has. That overall process of development in him rings true to me, so that's why I'm still a fan.
(My biggest gripe with Bob, ever, was when he had Bruenor suddenly agree to work with and sign a treaty with Obould in TOK, after all the misery the orc king had just caused in "THBT". This seemed like a cheap shock-value story element to me, because Bob hadn't explained Bruenor's thought process behind the decision. He gave Drizzt's and Alustriel's rationales for peace with Obould, but he failed to give Bruenor's rationale for setting aside vengeance against him. So for several years, I told Bob that the treaty still stuck in my craw, for lack of any better explanation in the text. "Obould must die!" was my battle cry. Bob and other fans tried to console me online by offering possible rationales for Bruenor's decision, but I wanted one in the books. It wasn't until Gauntlgrym's Prologue that I finally got it. But I got it!)
I think it's interesting that many passionate fans of different types of entertainment media feel entitled to demand or vehemently request creators/artists/authors to mold characters to the fans' liking, or to only change the characters this much, but no further. I get attached to my most beloved characters, too, but I just don't feel a sense of entitlement about someone else's creation, I guess. I trust the creator to do his/her own thing. (And remember, this comes from the most die-hard fan and defender of King Bruenor Battlehammer you'll ever meet! Long live the king.  )
(Now, that said, I do want Bob and his editors to work harder at consistency and continuity. But that's more a matter of mechanics and technicalities, than dramatic content. The latter, I fully trust him on.)
quote:
Unless things change, it will be hard for me to go back and read the earlier Drizzt books because I know they'll lose their flavor, and he won't be the Drizzt I love.
That's funny, because it is precisely the earlier collection of books in "The Icewind Dale Trilogy" and "The Dark Elf Trilogy" (and specifically The Crystal Shard and Homeland) that I find myself going back to most often! And that is because those are the books that had the flavor that I love the most.
In fact, if "they" ever make Drizzt movies, I want them to adapt those first six books, and then stop there. Leave off before Drizzt ever gets to his near-paladin phase. Let the fact that he realizes he is letting down his guard and finally finding his way into a loving family be his final reward in the last movie (The Halfling's Gem). We don't need to see his complete character arc from all the other following novels on screen. The character arc in the first six books alone would/should be quite enough for some great movies, I think.
And it is also in the hopes that I could maybe just maybe help out with any such movie efforts some day that I continue to re-read those particular books! 
quote:
But, since you're practically the encyclopedia of Drizzt knowledge, BEAST (and I mean that as a compliment ) you probably see something I don't.
Hey, thanks for that. I don't take it defensively. I try to warrant it!
I'm not so sure that I'm seeing anything that you're not already seeing. Based on your posts here at the Keep, I'd say you seem to be observing the stories pretty darn closely, yourself.
I would just say that I respect a writer's authority and prerogative enough not to presume to tell him/her how to steer the story. I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm dogging you or anybody else. It's just that I feel obligated to be pretty hands-off with a zealous artist about the main thrust of the art. If I had that kind of creative talent, I wouldn't want anybody (including fans) telling me how to do my thing. Instead, I ask myself if what happens in the story makes sense, and if it does, I try to appreciate it because of that, if nothing else. I love the Drizzt Saga because it rings true on the whole, even though a lot of the individual pieces do irk even me, too.
quote:
[...] I do not like Dahlia. Elves are my favorite race, but she is one I do not really care for. What happened to her was terrible, and she has had a brutal life. But it doesn't mean I like her.
Oh, I don't, either. She's messed up in the head! Yes, she was done wrong by Alegni, and apparently a whole lot of other men in her young life. But that still doesn't make it right for her to hate all men, and to willfully ensnare and entrap men at her choosing, only to then punish them for falling into the very trap that she herself laid. She's diabolical, in that way.
But even then, her character rings true, to me. I can totally understand why she does what she does. I don't like it, but I think I can empathize with her about it. And that is why I don't reject "The Neverwinter Saga" and her inclusion within it.
quote:
I don't think Drizzt really loves her, not like he loved Catti-brie. He waited for Catti, not taking another lover (some might speculate that he and Alustriel were together for a time, but I'm not so sure). I don't think he loves Dahlia like he did Catti, but they're lovers anyway. They aren't -in love- though, at least that's not the impression I got.
Oh boy, now you done got me started! I don't remember if it was here or on RAS's boards, but I've lamented the confusion over the words "love", "in love", "lovers", and "in lust" in these recent stories at great length, myself.
Of course Drizzt and Dahlia don't love each other like he and Catti-brie did. Drizzt and Dahlia haven't known each other as long or been through as much together. And Dahlia is just so different from him.
I cringe every time Bob calls them "lovers", because they're certainly not that--not really. I think it's more accurate to call them "sexers", because that more closely describes what they do with each other than "lovers" does.
And furthermore, along those same lines, I think it's more apropos to say that Drizzt is "in lust" with Dahlia than "in love" with her. She's hot, in an exotic way, so it's easy to see why he would have the hots for her. And he's intrigued by the occasional signs of vulnerability that he has seen in her. Those two things motivate him to put up with her endless snarkiness and cattiness.
But I don't see this lasting long-term for him. I don't think Dahlia is really compatible with his deepest principles and moral code. Eventually, the lust and the intrigue are going to wear thin, and he's gonna have to deal with the stark philosophical conflicts. And that should be quite fun to read!
I think this discussion of being in love and loving is actually relevant to us as readers, too. Do we read the Drizzt stories because or as long as Bob tells us what we want to read? Or do we read the stories because we can respect and value what he writes, in its own right? Are we guilty of conditional "love" of the stories? Or can we appreciate their full arc of development and progress, as long as it remains internally consistent and coherent? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Dec 2012 17:13:22 |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 07:17:41
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Well said Beast.
Personally I feel that Daliha and Drizzt could work together if she becomes a bit more mentally stable and more morally sound, which is something we see happening albeit slowly in the books. Their differences shouldn't necessarily drive them apart. Opposites attract after all. But I admit this scenario isn't all that likely.
Also as for Drizzt being a semi paladin in the earlier books, we have to remember that by drow standards he was just in his late teens and weren't we all a bit idealistic and arrogantly sure of yourself and your beliefs back then.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 07:19:35
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| Wow the previous post really makes me sounds like an old man. ( I am not though. Really!) |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 20:03:38
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I did see yesterday that RAS (via Facebook) is almost done with writing this book (so obviously any ideas what it might be about are premature since RAS was not sure himself what the characters wanted to say until he wrote it).
He also said it was a roller coaster for him. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 02:17:52
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@BEAST: I didn't want to go through and quote everything, so I just started a new post 
This conversation is making me think. The pre-Spellplague books does span a great length of time, and Drizzt changes. But...I didn't mind those changes as much. I didn't mind his darker moments. I like angsty characters. It's important to have your characters grow. I was introduced to the Drizzt books in high school, and I fell in love with him (I am a girl, after all ). It's why I feel so strongly about what happens. I've read many other Realms books since Drizzt (though since coming on here I've realized just how many I HAVEN'T read!), and frankly, I'm invested in what happens in the world, and that includes Drizzt.
I guess I feel his changes are too...drawn out. Not like he's taking too long to go through them, but that there are too many of them. It's hard to explain hehe. I don't expect or want Drizzt to be pregnant, and if he doesn't change at all he'd be flat and boring. And the death of his friends was a terrible shock--in part likely because of how it happened. If Cat had died of old age, he might not have taken it so hard. But she was taken from him, so I can understand his bitterness. It's just all his struggles to fight his heritage, while not completely moot, seem to have gone out the window. He's struggled before, but he's gotten past them. I'm hoping he does this time, too.
And yes, I am angry at the Spellplague. I will admit that now. I was not happy about it. The prologue and epilogue of the OK were a bit...jarring. I knew about the Spellplague before I read the book, and I got the impression that Salvatore was feeling pressured to include it somehow in his latest book. I'd actually like to know the results of that prologue. I liked Hralien and Tos'un.
I'm not trying to dictate what RAS does (and a lot of people seem to like the way Drizzt is now, anyway), but I think, if a person is unhappy about the direction of the books, it shows they care about the outcome, which means they're invested in the story and characters. If readers have a strong opinion about the direction of the story, it shows they are connected to it enough that the results affect them in one way for another. In the end, it's true that they're just stories, but I DO care about what happens because the Realms are a part of my life. I'm a bookworm, after all
Haha, "sexers". That's a new one. The term "lovers" is used loosely to describe people who are sleeping together, whether they actually love each other or not. I agree that Drizzt lusts after her--which is another development I don't like about his character. He didn't used to be as lusty. I understand he's trying to move on, it just bothers me how he's choosing to do it, hehe.
And I've brought this before, and I suppose in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal, but it stuck out to (this goes with the whole being a hopeless romantic thing again). In Drizzt's first journal entry in Neverwinter, he mentions how he is trying to move on, and that elves rarely mate for life, because in a hundred years or so, it'd make an anchor. Personally, I disagree with this. Elves don't fall in love as easily, because they are longer lived, and they may have dalliances before committing to a relationship, because they WILL be spending the rest of their long lives together. But elves DO mate for life. It's not like two elves are going to be in a relationship for a hundred years and then call it off. Elven couples will sometimes part ways for a time to go on separate adventures on something, but they do return to each other, and the return is made all the sweeter. Honestly, I believe if Catti had been an elf (and hadn't been offed by the Spellplague), she and Drizzt would have mated for life.
I could be wrong, but I think when Innovondil (sp?) first told Drizzt what it meant to be an elf, while there was the whole "live the life in shorter spans", I think it meant "hakuna matata". Don't worry about the future. Part of what kept Catti and Drizzt a part was because Drizzt would (if all went well), outlive her, because she was human. It did not mean, be in a relationship for X amount of time and then move on. That, at least, was not the impression I got. It was just a small sentence in Neverwinter, but it stuck out to me. They DO mate for life. I've read it in other Realms books.
I will still read the books, I still love Drizzt, which is why I complain hehe. I care about what happens. As an aspiring writer myself, I don't want people to dictate to me what should happen with my characters, but I'd like them to care about what happens (it shows I did my job ) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 03:03:42
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I think Drizzt is looking for and trying to see something in Dahlia that isn't there. He wants to believe she's a good person from a bad place that he can set right, and wants to believe they have the potential for the level of the relationship he and Catti had. Though really what I think he wants is Catti and is just using Dahlia for comfort, even if he has himself convinced otherwise. I had a friend who split up with his wife and tried to rush every relationship he was in afterwards because he wanted to get right back to the level he had been at with his wife after seven years with women he had known for two months. I think something similar is going on in Drizzt's mind with Dahlia.
The fact that he doesn't know she's a serial killer, rapist, and (attempted) child murderer probably factors into that. Really, he doesn't know anything about her other than that she used to be affiliated with Thay, which I think he probably equates with his past in Menzoberranzan. The fact that she hasn't told him about her past trauma and the fact that he hasn't figured it out for himself speaks volumes about how shallow their relationship really is. Then again, he does come from a culture where rape is not only allowed, it's socially expected, but that just loops back around as he somehow(I suspect due to a benign brain tumor) recognized that as wrong despite having no cultural context to do so, and has spent enough time above ground to recognize PTSD when he sees it. Artemis(who, admittedly, has more insight into the subject) figures it out after knowing the woman for all of five minutes, so I go back to my point of Drizzt seeing what he wants to seen when it comes to Dahlia, not what's there.
As for elves mating for life, I'd expect that to be the ideal situation in their culture, not the reality of it, for every reason why marriage and monogamy fail in real life. Even if it were the case, Drizzt isn't an elf. He's a drow, and they decidedly do not mate for life, they mate for however long their current partner entertains them or however long it is advantageous to do so. Dahlia is an elf, but she's not a particularly moral example of one. Even then, she grew up in Thay, a primarily human culture that is likewise not exactly a bastion of virtues. You put these two together and you are not going to get anything resembling a stable relationship.
At any rate I think the writing's on the wall for the Drizzt/Dahlia ship. Charon's Claw was half Drizzt realizing it wasn't going to work and half Dahlia falling for Artemis. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 03:26:56
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@CoA: I think you hit that right on. Drizzt wants to lead Dahlia to salvation and a life of good, and she could care less.
He just needs to get Guen back and stop playing like Dahlia is doing anything more than using him. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 04:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think Drizzt is looking for and trying to see something in Dahlia that isn't there. He wants to believe she's a good person from a bad place that he can set right, and wants to believe they have the potential for the level of the relationship he and Catti had. Though really what I think he wants is Catti and is just using Dahlia for comfort, even if he has himself convinced otherwise. I had a friend who split up with his wife and tried to rush every relationship he was in afterwards because he wanted to get right back to the level he had been at with his wife after seven years with women he had known for two months. I think something similar is going on in Drizzt's mind with Dahlia.
The fact that he doesn't know she's a serial killer, rapist, and (attempted) child murderer probably factors into that. Really, he doesn't know anything about her other than that she used to be affiliated with Thay, which I think he probably equates with his past in Menzoberranzan. The fact that she hasn't told him about her past trauma and the fact that he hasn't figured it out for himself speaks volumes about how shallow their relationship really is. Then again, he does come from a culture where rape is not only allowed, it's socially expected, but that just loops back around as he somehow(I suspect due to a benign brain tumor) recognized that as wrong despite having no cultural context to do so, and has spent enough time above ground to recognize PTSD when he sees it. Artemis(who, admittedly, has more insight into the subject) figures it out after knowing the woman for all of five minutes, so I go back to my point of Drizzt seeing what he wants to seen when it comes to Dahlia, not what's there.
As for elves mating for life, I'd expect that to be the ideal situation in their culture, not the reality of it, for every reason why marriage and monogamy fail in real life. Even if it were the case, Drizzt isn't an elf. He's a drow, and they decidedly do not mate for life, they mate for however long their current partner entertains them or however long it is advantageous to do so. Dahlia is an elf, but she's not a particularly moral example of one. Even then, she grew up in Thay, a primarily human culture that is likewise not exactly a bastion of virtues. You put these two together and you are not going to get anything resembling a stable relationship.
At any rate I think the writing's on the wall for the Drizzt/Dahlia ship. Charon's Claw was half Drizzt realizing it wasn't going to work and half Dahlia falling for Artemis.
Well, not all humans mate for life either. They can be flighty too (as it sounds like your friend was). It's true that Drizzt isn't an elf, but he has tried to live as one (until recently). I agree that Dahlia isn't a prime example of elves. They are my favorite race, but there are ones I don't like, and Dahlia is one of them. I don't want her and Entreri together either, because I like Entreri more than I do Dahlia, but maybe they are a better match for each other than she and Drizzt. He's probably curious about her, but I highly doubt he loves her.
Elves do not take love lightly, but they love strongly and deeply when it's right. They may have more than one partner before they find "the one" for lack of a better term, but they value it when they do. Does it happen all the time? No, but neither do all humans. Not every elf mates for life, but it isn't rare like Drizzt implied. I truly believe that if Catti-brie was an elf and hadn't been zapped by the Spellplague, they would have been together for life.
Then again, this IS coming from a hopeless romantic I don't really want to be in a relationship myself (I like being single), but I like it for my OCs and those I read about. For the most part, anyway. But based on other elven books I've read, they do mate for life. Maybe not with their first, or even fourth partner, but when they know it's meant to be, they will commit (this is however why they have 20 year betrothals, to make sure it IS the right one).
I want Guen back! Must Drizzt lose everything? Seriously! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:02:50
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Well, we know Drizzt is getting Guen back as she was in the Orc King prologue which takes place after Charon's Claw. Notably, Dahlia was not in said prologue, mostly because her character hadn't been thought up yet, but it does kind of write RAS into a corner where he can't have Drizzt and Dahlia together by the time that prologue comes around.
Honestly I think this relationship will be good for Drizzt in the sense that it's terrible for him and he needs to learn from it. My personal feelings on romance, love, and relationships aside(I'm against marriage, pro monogamy when love is involved, and pro responsible casual sex when it isn't), Drizzt needs to go through this to appreciate what made him and Catti such a strong couple to begin with.
I wonder if Drizzt won't end up like Gibbs from the tv show NCIS; guy was married four times, divorced three- first wife was murdered. Reason the other relationships didn't work was because he never got over the first, and he never got over the first because that was the one he actually got right. That was the soul mate and she was taken away from him.
As for Artemis and Dahlia, if nothing else they have more chemistry than Dahlia and Drizzt ever had. And they aren't far off in terms of morality, compared to Drizzt, who's more rigid than most paladins in that regard. Sometimes opposites attract. Sometimes they don't. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:10:34
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That prologue does give me some hope (though I do wonder if RAS even know about the Neverwinter saga when writing OK), and I'd like to see that prologue and epilogue addressed. It felt out of place in that book, but still.
Wait...I'm confused. You're against marriage if there is love involved? But that is a good point about Drizzt and Catti. He needs to learn why he ISN'T a good match for Dahlia.
Yeah sometimes opposites attract, and sometimes they don't, like with Drizzt and Dahlia. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:18:24
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I'm against marriage, period. I support monogamy when love's involved, but I have a laundry list of issues with the institution of marriage that I've written full essays on. I won't get into it here, though.
And no, RAS didn't know about the Neverwinter saga that far in advance. He would admit in an interview around the time Gauntlgrym came out that he had originally planned on killing off Dahlia towards the end of that book but chose to keep her around after he started writing her. He admitted in the same interview that he had no idea what the third book of the trilogy(before they added another to it) would be like.
Still, I don't see him outright ignoring it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:27:05
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I'm not against marriage (though some people are a bad match), but it's why I was using the word mate--and Drizzt used it too--because some elves are partners for life but don't always "tie the knot" so to speak.
I hope he doesn't completely ignore it. I wonder how he was planning to address it before the Neverwinter saga came out. Honestly, I didn't enjoy Gauntlgrym that much (it's saving grace was Jarlaxle, Valas, and the fact that Bruenor ended up in that realm with the others, though he probably would have been happy going to Moradin too), but I know other people enjoyed it, so *shrugs* |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2012 : 05:56:51
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I didn't care much for Jarlaxle in Gauntlgrym; mainly he served the purpose of making Dahlia look good by having her outsmart him a few times.
Honestly I think that was my biggest problem with the book, everyone existed to make Dahlia look good except Dahlia.
God I hated her in that book.
That being said, my dislike of her isn't why I'm against the Drizzt/Dahlia ship. I don't particularly like Drizzt, either. I just don't think these two make a convincing couple.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This conversation is making me think. The pre-Spellplague books does span a great length of time, and Drizzt changes. But...I didn't mind those changes as much. [...]
I guess I feel his changes are too...drawn out. Not like he's taking too long to go through them, but that there are too many of them. It's hard to explain hehe.
You certainly don't have to like the particular changes that an author chooses to put his characters through. Like I said, I don't like everything that has happened to Drizzt or everything that he has done about the changes bin his life, myself.
But I do accept those changes, as Bob's choice. This is the direction that he has chosen to go in with his most beloved character, and I accept that. I don't have to like it, but I accept it. And I choose to embrace those changes, as believable ways for the character to respond to his life changes.
I don't sit around griping about them, because I cannot change them, and I don't even particularly want to, right now (not like I wanted to change the whole Obould situation!). I enjoy the overall tale, regardless of some of the individual elements along the way, and I entrust Bob to guide us through the mess to a brighter day. I don't call on him to rush it because it's unpleasant right now. I just walk beside him, and hang on for the ride.
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I'm not trying to dictate what RAS does (and a lot of people seem to like the way Drizzt is now, anyway), but I think, if a person is unhappy about the direction of the books, it shows they care about the outcome, which means they're invested in the story and characters. If readers have a strong opinion about the direction of the story, it shows they are connected to it enough that the results affect them in one way for another.
Yes, caring about the characters enough to give feedback is very important.
But it irks me a little for readers to call on authors to hurry up with the yucky stuff and get to the good stuff because the readers would rather focus on that. The yuck stuff is a process. Maybe the author wants to explore that a little bit more, first, and wallow around in it, before moving forward to the good stuff. And I respect that, as his prerogative as the writer. He's not obligated to me and my sense of "good stuff".
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I agree that Drizzt lusts after her--which is another development I don't like about his character. He didn't used to be as lusty.
Quite the contrary--he used to be almost prudish, in his views on sex, desire, and carnal pleasure. Drizzt came off as a child, like some sort of archetypal Boy Scout, in that regard. And it was annoying.
quote:
I understand he's trying to move on, it just bothers me how he's choosing to do it, hehe.
Now, I have to disagree with the idea of him trying to move on.
Rather, I think he's just covering up. He's just masking the pain, by diving in to massive, overwhelming, visceral, sensual experiences. He's self-medicating, with the crazed fighting, and the crazed f***ing.
I think this is because, as COA said, Drizzt is still hung up on Cat, so he's not ready to really move on.
He can't focus on her, because it hurts too much; and he can't move on, because he's still too attached to her. So all he can do is just bury his feelings about Cat beneath some other, more pressing, more immediate feelings.
Dahlia is not exactly a rebound fling, but a substitute one. She's a placeholder, and as loud and ostentatious of one as possible, to help Drizzt take his mind off of the hurt of losing Cat.
But that kind of "fix" can only be a fleeting, temporary one.
This is stupid on Drizzt's part, of course. But it reveals a change in his character. He isn't responding to his life problems in a logical or reasonable manner, or even in an altruistic or noble one. He's being selfish, and irrational--almost cowardly. In going forward with vixen Dahlia, he's actually retreating from his morals, principles, lifetime mission statement, etc.
Quasi-paladin Drizzt Do'Urden hurts that much.
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And I've brought this before, and I suppose in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal, but it stuck out to (this goes with the whole being a hopeless romantic thing again). In Drizzt's first journal entry in Neverwinter, he mentions how he is trying to move on, and that elves rarely mate for life, because in a hundred years or so, it'd make an anchor. Personally, I disagree with this. Elves don't fall in love as easily, because they are longer lived, and they may have dalliances before committing to a relationship, because they WILL be spending the rest of their long lives together. But elves DO mate for life. It's not like two elves are going to be in a relationship for a hundred years and then call it off. Elven couples will sometimes part ways for a time to go on separate adventures on something, but they do return to each other, and the return is made all the sweeter. Honestly, I believe if Catti had been an elf (and hadn't been offed by the Spellplague), she and Drizzt would have mated for life.
I don't know what Bob was thinking when he wrote that, there.  
But how about this?
Recall that Drizzt also said in his diary entries that he is finally ready to move on beyond the Companions.
I don't believe him.
I think he was using his journal to try to psyche himself up into believing that that stuff was true, but it's not really working. He even admitted in one diary entry that it was a lie!
So it's possible that Drizzt is trying to rationalize slumming with Dahlia by dismissing the idea of lifetime monogamy/monoamory, couched in pseudo-lore about the elves, or misquoted or misapplied passages from the elf Innovindil. Maybe he's feeling guilty about indulging himself with this sexpot, so subconsciously he has to make it "right" by dismissing the underlying ideals which make him feel guilty about it.
Isn't Drizzt basically saying, "But the cool kids don't do it"?
It's pretty bad when a person has to resort to that sort of thing to continue to justify staying with someone else!
I find myself doing the same thing, regarding my day job. Whenever I find myself running late to work, an evil little voice inside my head tries to rationalize it by thinking to myself, "I don't really even care that I'm late, because I don't even like this job anyway, because they don't treat me with the kind of respect and dignity that I deserve; it suits them right that I'm late; no wonder other associates are late, so often." In the end, this is just me trying to feel better about doing something that I know I shouldn't have done.
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I could be wrong, but I think when Innovondil (sp?) first told Drizzt what it meant to be an elf, while there was the whole "live the life in shorter spans", I think it meant "hakuna matata". Don't worry about the future. Part of what kept Catti and Drizzt a part was because Drizzt would (if all went well), outlive her, because she was human. It did not mean, be in a relationship for X amount of time and then move on. That, at least, was not the impression I got.
While Innovindil was saying those words, she was coming onto Drizzt, too, so that body language was probably a little distracting to Boy Scout Drizzt. You'll have to forgive him if he missed her true point, a little! 
But I would actually agree with you about what her real point probably was. Innovindil was saying that it's OK when your committed relationships come to an end because of death, such as when partnering with a shorter-lived race.
She was not saying to avoid committed relationships. She was not saying to have idle flings.
So Drizzt is misremembering, or misapplying her comments, in this Neverwinter diary entry.
And I think I've offered a pretty plausible reason why.
(All the while, I fully admit that I don't know what Bob's real intentions were when he wrote that passage.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Then again, this IS coming from a hopeless romantic
Yay! 
quote:
I don't really want to be in a relationship myself (I like being single)[...]
Boo! Darn!
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Well, we know Drizzt is getting Guen back as she was in the Orc King prologue which takes place after Charon's Claw. Notably, Dahlia was not in said prologue, mostly because her character hadn't been thought up yet, but it does kind of write RAS into a corner where he can't have Drizzt and Dahlia together by the time that prologue comes around.
Drizzt also wielded both Icingdeath and Twinkle in the TOK Prologue, as well, instead of this mysterious drow scimitar of Tiago Baenre's in CC. Does this mean that Drizzt does not end up replacing either of his familiar blades?
The timing of these latest novels, the Neverwinter Tales comic, and the TOK Prologue is all kinda tricky. It'll be interesting to see how well Bob and his editors are able to bring it all together.
quote:
Honestly I think this relationship will be good for Drizzt in the sense that it's terrible for him and he needs to learn from it.
I'm not sure if there is good to be had, by Drizzt, from this relationship or not.
But I think it's good for us readers, just to see Drizzt go through something different.
quote:
I wonder if Drizzt won't end up like Gibbs from the tv show NCIS; guy was married four times, divorced three- first wife was murdered. Reason the other relationships didn't work was because he never got over the first, and he never got over the first because that was the one he actually got right. That was the soul mate and she was taken away from him.
Hopeless romantic that I am, I'm actually OK with that. 'Tis far nobler than the guy who acts like he'll get with anything in a skirt! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm against marriage, period. I support monogamy when love's involved, but I have a laundry list of issues with the institution of marriage that I've written full essays on. I won't get into it here, though.
The word "monogamy" is derived from mono-, for "one or single"; and gamÉô, for "to marry". Monogamy is marriage to one person.
I think you're saying that you're for monoamory, which is "love of one person". Is that right, COA? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:57:39
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quote:
Drizzt also wielded both Icingdeath and Twinkle in the TOK Prologue, as well, instead of this mysterious drow scimitar of Tiago Baenre's in CC. Does this mean that Drizzt does not end up replacing either of his familiar blades?
I actually strongly suspect that Artemis, not Drizzt, will be getting ahold of Tiago's sword. He needs a replacement for the Claw more than Drizzt needs a replacement for Twinkle or Icingdeath. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 19:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I didn't care much for Jarlaxle in Gauntlgrym; mainly he served the purpose of making Dahlia look good by having her outsmart him a few times.
Honestly I think that was my biggest problem with the book, everyone existed to make Dahlia look good except Dahlia.
God I hated her in that book.
I didn't think anyone made her look good. She's hot and she is a good fighter.
But she came off as a pompous, arrogant, bluffing little tramp, to me. She's young, and oversteps her bounds far too often. To smart-ass King Bruenor, like she did?! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 20:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm against marriage, period. I support monogamy when love's involved, but I have a laundry list of issues with the institution of marriage that I've written full essays on. I won't get into it here, though.
The word "monogamy" is derived from mono-, for "one or single"; and gamÉô, for "to marry". Monogamy is marriage to one person.
I think you're saying that you're for monoamory, which is "love of one person". Is that right, COA?
There we go. Thank you for correcting that terminology.
Essentially what I believe is that marriage as a social institution is unnecessary. To me, the ideal relationship requires nothing more than the bond between two people. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2012 : 20:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I didn't care much for Jarlaxle in Gauntlgrym; mainly he served the purpose of making Dahlia look good by having her outsmart him a few times.
Honestly I think that was my biggest problem with the book, everyone existed to make Dahlia look good except Dahlia.
God I hated her in that book.
I didn't think anyone made her look good. She's hot and she is a good fighter.
But she came off as a pompous, arrogant, bluffing little tramp, to me. She's young, and oversteps her bounds far too often. To smart-ass King Bruenor, like she did?!
I never said they succeeded in making her look good. That's just what RAS was going for, I suspect. It's called Shilling the Wesley and the Worf Effect; you either have other characters talk up one character to get the idea that said character is cool(Athrogate more or less admitting that Dahlia's a superior fighter than him and that he thinks she could beat Drizzt, for instance), or you have a character fail at something the other character succeeds at(Jarlaxle being outwitted by Dahlia). |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 02:39:50
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Quite the contrary--he used to be almost prudish, in his views on sex, desire, and carnal pleasure. Drizzt came off as a child, like some sort of archetypal Boy Scout, in that regard. And it was annoying.
Actually, I liked him that way. He was holding for the person he loved. That appealed to me, and I actually found his “prudishness” towards sex endearing.
quote:
Now, I have to disagree with the idea of him trying to move on.
Rather, I think he's just covering up. He's just masking the pain, by diving in to massive, overwhelming, visceral, sensual experiences. He's self-medicating, with the crazed fighting, and the crazed f***ing.
I think this is because, as COA said, Drizzt is still hung up on Cat, so he's not ready to really move on.
He can't focus on her, because it hurts too much; and he can't move on, because he's still too attached to her. So all he can do is just bury his feelings about Cat beneath some other, more pressing, more immediate feelings.
Dahlia is not exactly a rebound fling, but a substitute one. She's a placeholder, and as loud and ostentatious of one as possible, to help Drizzt take his mind off of the hurt of losing Cat.
But that kind of "fix" can only be a fleeting, temporary one.
This is stupid on Drizzt's part, of course. But it reveals a change in his character. He isn't responding to his life problems in a logical or reasonable manner, or even in an altruistic or noble one. He's being selfish, and irrational--almost cowardly. In going forward with vixen Dahlia, he's actually retreating from his morals, principles, lifetime mission statement, etc.
Quasi-paladin Drizzt Do'Urden hurts that much.
Hmm, that’s a good point. I hadn’t really thought of that, but it makes sense. In Neverwinter, he hinted that he was trying to move on, but you could be right. Maybe he’s afraid to have another relationship like the one he had with Cat, because he is afraid to go through that pain again, despite what he says.
quote:
I don't know what Bob was thinking when he wrote that, there.
But how about this?
Recall that Drizzt also said in his diary entries that he is finally ready to move on beyond the Companions.
I don't believe him.I think he was using his journal to try to psyche himself up into believing that that stuff was true, but it's not really working. He even admitted in one diary entry that it was a lie!
So it's possible that Drizzt is trying to rationalize slumming with Dahlia by dismissing the idea of lifetime monogamy/monoamory, couched in pseudo-lore about the elves, or misquoted or misapplied passages from the elf Innovindil. Maybe he's feeling guilty about indulging himself with this sexpot, so subconsciously he has to make it "right" by dismissing the underlying ideals which make him feel guilty about it.
Isn't Drizzt basically saying, "But the cool kids don't do it"?
It's pretty bad when a person has to resort to that sort of thing to continue to justify staying with someone else!
Again, that’s a good point. He could have taken it out of context because he was trying to justify his actions, and “selecting” what he wanted to pull out of that conversation with Innovondil (even incorrectly), to explain his current direction.
quote:
While Innovindil was saying those words, she was coming onto Drizzt, too, so that body language was probably a little distracting to Boy Scout Drizzt. You'll have to forgive him if he missed her true point, a little!
Haha! Possibly, and that was shallow on her part. She had just lost Tarethial, and Drizzt thought he had lost Catti.
quote:
But I would actually agree with you about what her real point probably was. Innovindil was saying that it's OK when your committed relationships come to an end because of death, such as when partnering with a shorter-lived race.
She was not saying to avoid committed relationships. She was not saying to have idle flings.
So Drizzt is misremembering, or misapplying her comments, in this Neverwinter diary entry
Exactly! If a partner dies, it’s okay to move on (after grieving). I remember Innovindil telling Drizzt in her first relationship with a human, when that human died , it was awhile before she could love again. Her next relationship was also with a human, and he died too, but not before they had “three wonderful decades together”.
Death is completely different from “elves rarely mate for life, because the relationship would prove and anchor after a hundred years or so”. Perhaps one of the reasons Drizzt is taking Innovindil’s statement out of context because he was robbed of Catti so suddenly, as opposed to seeing her die of old age—which, while still painful, might have been easier for him to accept.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 03:58:27
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| I personally hope Drizzt makes it in, kicks the crap out of whomever is holding Guen, gets her back (Maybe with Jaraxle's help..that is up his ally) and parts ways with Artemis and Dahlia. We do know he is going to head back towards Icewind Dale. Back home. What better place to heal and come to terms with the events in one's life? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 04:04:54
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| I'd have to agree with that. I think he should focus on getting his kitty back now, and I'd like to see Jarlaxle again. I don't mind Entreri, but...I don't really care what happens to Dahlia. Well, okay, that's not entirely true, and a bit harsh. I want her to be happy, but I honestly don't like her. I wouldn't shed any tears over her death, but neither will I insist she die. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 12:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Quite the contrary--he used to be almost prudish, in his views on sex, desire, and carnal pleasure. Drizzt came off as a child, like some sort of archetypal Boy Scout, in that regard. And it was annoying.
Actually, I liked him that way. He was holding for the person he loved. That appealed to me, and I actually found his “prudishness” towards sex endearing.
You know, Drizzt having that attitude always annoyed me to no end because I honestly can't fathom how he developed it. He's in a society that teaches that sex is for the sole purposes of power and pleasure; where he got the concept of equating it with love is simply beyond me(which is why I go with the brain tumor theory).
As for Guen, I'm hoping it's resolved in a relatively non-violent fashion. I like the trend of Drizzt being confronted with problems he can't solve with his swords(Obould, Luskan, the Ghost King) and him having to deal or compromise to get her back lends to the theme of him questioning his black and white view on the world. Does saving his friend mean more to him than the rather vain act of upholding some arbitrary morals? I'd like to see the question explored further. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 17:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
(which is why I go with the brain tumor theory).
I can see it now: some lame-brain trying to pitch a Drizzt movie to Hollywood would describe it as "Blade meets Phenomenon".  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 19:37:53
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Only instead of special powers, it makes him a prude.
Something tells me that sales pitch would fail. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 20:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Only instead of special powers, it makes him a prude.
Something tells me that sales pitch would fail.
Studio Exec: "Well, thanks for that lively presentation. It really is such a novel idea!"
*Leads Drizzt hack out of room. Picks up intercom phone.*
Studio Exec: "Ah, yeah, Sally, we're gonna pass on the retarded elf with the brain tumor."
Drizzt Hack: "Hey, I heard that! <It's not a toomah>!" |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 08 Dec 2012 12:38:56 |
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