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EltonJ
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2012 : 15:53:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, the difference (in my eyes) between the Tree and Eberron's cosmology is that folks on Toril only think their versions are separate and unique, because of perception.
I made this point before: In my mind, if a Torillian and a Oerthan (GH) were traveling together in the planes, the Oerthan would think it really strange that the Torillian needed to keep going back to the prime to get to the next plane - something he himself would not have to do. Since perception = reality in a fantasy setting (based upon the rules of illusions), as far as the Torillian is concerned it would hit an actual physical 'wall' if they tried to cross a planer boundary with their buddies from other spheres.
On the other hand - I am not sure what would happen if the GH (or other) people could knock their friend out and drag him across the boundary - would his own belief still prevent him from crossing even while unconscious? I personally don't think they could - he would be stuck on the other side no matter how hard they tried to pull; this is one of those 'cosmic mandates' that is governed by your home plane (and the rules put in place by it's Overgod).
Eberron, on the other hand, definitely has separate planes, but I think these are just like worlds within a crystal sphere (a closed sphere like Athas). The sphere itself should be immeasurably large - even far bigger then Realmspace - to account for immense plane-planets rotating within it.
The only (known) sphere I think should be bigger then Eberron is Earthspace - it is possible, just read the Chronicles of Amber. 
And I now have to wonder who is the Overgod of Eberspace. 
Anyhow, I am agreeing with Rich Baker here, in spirit, but also with Keith Baker (The Fabulous Baker Boys!), in that I think it should be possible to travel to the corresponding Great Wheel planes from those plane-worlds, but the ways should be both difficult to navigate and well-hidden. KB only points to Xoriat (which definitely should have connections, since the Far Realms exist outside of any universe), but I think there should be others as well.
It seems to me there is a pattern here - Spheres without proper deities tend to be closed-off from the Great Wheel cosmology and Spelljamming; one has to wonder if it there is some correlation.
Earthspace is a Crystal Dodecahedron. And, yes it's big. Scientists have found 3 other Earths with the exact same geography as ours. :) I wonder if Crystal Sphere isn't the right way to describe it. What if they were all dodecahedrons instead?
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 15:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, the difference (in my eyes) between the Tree and Eberron's cosmology is that folks on Toril only think their versions are separate and unique, because of perception.
I made this point before: In my mind, if a Torillian and a Oerthan (GH) were traveling together in the planes, the Oerthan would think it really strange that the Torillian needed to keep going back to the prime to get to the next plane - something he himself would not have to do. Since perception = reality in a fantasy setting (based upon the rules of illusions), as far as the Torillian is concerned it would hit an actual physical 'wall' if they tried to cross a planer boundary with their buddies from other spheres.
Yes and no. The fact that he saw his body doing it, might be enough to destroy his perception and allow him to do it. After all an illusion only works if the person isn’t aware that it is as such. There are plenty of cases in the novels where an illusion stops working the moment, that the person see’s it as such. Your also confusing a perceived response of behavior to reality, as apposed to reality. People once thought that the ocen ended only a few hundred miles after the coast of England, and smajor sea voyages weren’t undertaken tht way. The person in your case could go back the prime plain, simply because he thinks he has to, not because of any illusion magic, which is simply just a telepathic suggestion upon perception, compelling him to do so. There’s another factor your argument doesn’t consider, and would counter the if/then argumentation on which it hangs. It’s called logical argumentation. If his friend says, no you don’t have to go back to the prime material plain, watch, and goes right through, it might be enough to persuage the individual. You could take it a step further, if this all based on perception, then by supplying a fine enough argument for the wheel, then it wouldn’t matter for the friend that thought he had to go to the prime material plain. There’s only one problem with your argument that goes above all that, there’s no link between illusion magic and the plains in your argument. You require us to take the leap that what is holding the plains together is the same stuff as illusion magic, and that it’s the mind of believers perceiving in it that holds it all toether. There is no link for this in your argument, thus while this entire thing works well in purely secondary lines, or as an argument from a supisition. It remains just that, it doesn’t have the logical grounding of proof based arguments. In short, you need to re-work if it is to hold logically.
On the other hand - I am not sure what would happen if the GH (or other) people could Eberron, on the other hand, definitely has separate planes, but I think these are just like worlds within a crystal sphere (a closed sphere like Athas). The sphere itself should be immeasurably large - even far bigger then Realmspace - to account for immense plane-planets rotating within it.
The only (known) sphere I think should be bigger then Eberron is Earthspace - it is possible, just read the Chronicles of Amber.
And I now have to wonder who is the Overgod of Eberspace.
He was originally called Marthious according to the Wardens. He’s the one that set everything in motion.
Anyhow, I am agreeing with Rich Baker here, in spirit, but also with Keith Baker (The Fabulous Baker Boys!), in that I think it should be possible to travel to the corresponding Great Wheel planes from those plane-worlds, but the ways should be both difficult to navigate and well-hidden. KB only points to Xoriat (which definitely should have connections, since the Far Realms exist outside of any universe), but I think there should be others as well.
It seems to me there is a pattern here - Spheres without proper deities tend to be closed-off from the Great Wheel cosmology and Spelljamming; one has to wonder if it there is some correlation.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:20:45
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quote:
The Sage
And, also, Keith Baker has stated that travel between EBERRON and either the Realms or Earth can happen, based on the fact that the Plane of Xoriat has "possible" connections to the Far Realm of the Core D&D Cosmology, and the "chaos" of undefined higher dimensions in real-world physical terms.
Provided a traveller can "safely use" such methods of access, then travel between these individual worlds is possible.
Once again, the Far Realms serves as the panacea of the planes! This sort of hints that the Far Realms on the perimeter of one D&D universe are also connected to the perimeter of another D&D universe ... the blind dogma of contrived symmetry might be satisfied with the notion that the "center" of the cosmos is not some middly point like Sigil, but instead seen when two D&D universes are tangentially connected around an axis like a figure-eight (infinity?) ... or three or more (many) D&D universes connected around a symmetry seen as a triquetra, layered calyx, or any sort of complex "flower petal" topology.
Although I'll admit that I was initially thinking only of Eberron-Realms connections being made (in canon) in a very tenuous manner, through an intermediary (demi-)plane like Ravenloft. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 17:50:35
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So the Far Realms is more like a dimension - a vast medium in-which 'float' the universes.
So universes themselves are almost like unimaginably huge Crystal Spheres.
Now, if we imagine that each Galaxy is a universe unto itself (with its own rules, etc), then we can use that scene at the end of Men In Black, where the titanic alien is using the galaxy to play a game of marbles. 
And then we hear, "Pale Knight, come to dinner! And don't forget you have a play-date later with the LoP"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 18:08:53
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D&D doesn't use marbles. It uses dice. The gygaxoverse would be composed of 20-sided rolling icosahedrons.
Some of those incomprehensible places beyond the Far Realms might be structured around 100-sided "Zocchihedron" geometries which nightmarishly roll forward forever.
More seriously, I expect that the Far Realms (since it exists "on the map") must have some properties which can be observed and described. It is probably comprised of "layers", and I would think only the "border" regions have been explored while the "deep" regions remain undiscovered, unknown, unexplored, unconfirmed, or simply unsurvivable. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 May 2012 18:13:15 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 19:02:30
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| Or relms of utter madness, where traveling to would utterly destroy anyone upoon entering. Hmm, sounds like some place familar. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 01:55:20
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I may have found evidence that should provide, for me at least, a way for the argument go be swung one way or the other. You may remember that in a previous post I said that the tree and the wheel were each in of themselves equally logical. That remains the case, but I have recently discovered something that makes one more credible, if and only if, what is, actually describes an actual cosmological event.
In the Glass prisen, the main character tells the half orc a story about a ship, a selling vessel as it is described, that could pass across the plains. As part of the tale, the ship sets forth from it’s home plain, to limbo, where the builder of the vessel collects some of the waters of that plain and returns from where he came.
Now, if we hold to this, then the cosmology of the plains is similar to that of the Qu’shu style religions of east asia, and several others of the middle east. If this is so, then the universe is spheroid consisting of spheres that spin about the central axis. The spheres are held within the greater sphere by the ether or great ocen, which vessels can sail upon and travel from one plain to another. I believe that this is the cosmology that the original universe for FR and most of D& D was based around. I think to remain continuous it would be wise to remain with this system.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 05:42:13
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Sounds a lot like the 4e Cosmology (from what I've been told - I haven't really studied 4e's lore all that well).
Which sounds like my 'bubbles' cosmology - that the entire multiverse is like bubbles in a vast sea, a sea without end, so the bubbles have no 'up' to travel to, but rather, just bob-around. Sometimes the 'drift' would be completely random, but other times bubbles are caught-up in the currents of the great cosmic ocean.
That still works with the Great wheel (and the Tree, I suppose): The Gate towns are actual gates - the Outlands isn't a real 'hub' - its just a place nearly all the planes are connected to through these towns. The only constant would be the Outlands and Sigil, with everything else just swirling around in the primordial sea. The cosmology would appear different on paper, but mechanically, it all works out the same. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2012 05:43:11 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 08:47:29
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I hope they return to the Great Wheel (unless they think of something better - which the current cosmology is not...) with all the worlds connected (Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Dragon Lance, the Forgotten realms, Eberron, The Order of the Stick world, home brew worlds...etc. )
The Great Tree (are we talking about Yggdrasil (sp?) ), Spelljammer, and Sigil could all be presented as options.
I prefer the Planescape setting over all others (including the realms :O )
Maybe more inner planes like Elemental Planes of Wood, Metal, etc. to reflect other views of the universe than four elements. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 09:27:05
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| Stickworld and SnarfQuest are connected, too? |
[/Ayrik] |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 14:00:29
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| If Stickworld is the magical land of Elan and Nale then yes. Snarfquest was awesome, too. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Stickworld and SnarfQuest are connected, too?
Of course.
As are Narnia, The Land, Westeros, Middle-Earth, Hyborea, Newhon, etc, etc...
If the X-Men can meet the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise (in a crossover), then anyone can meet anyone.
Heck, Scooby-Doo used to hangout with Batman. Come to think of it, Batman also met Archie and Predator - Batman is a Planeswalker!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2012 18:10:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 18:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Stickworld and SnarfQuest are connected, too?
Of course.
As are Narnia, The Land, Westeros, Middle-Earth, Hyborea, Newhon, etc, etc...
If the X-Men can meet the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise (in a crossover), then anyone can meet anyone.
Heck, Scooby-Doo used to hangout with Batman. Come to think of it, Batman also met Archie and Predator - Batman is a Planeswalker!
I'd not consider a one-shot crossover as a canon event, unless it's later referenced in regular canon.
I'd also not have every single world connected to every other, though I'd not have an issue with world A connecting to world B, which has a connection to world C, and so on. Otherwise, it's going to get ridiculous -- with the number of homebrew worlds out there, you'd wind up with a continent of nothing but portals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:12:46
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I would technically consider any crossover a repeatable "proof of concept" precedent.
However I suppose it's a judgement call and everybody draws their line somewhere. For me, Realms characters subjected to D&D game rules are different from superpowered mutants who wander through comic book frames - not everyone may agree, but that still wouldn't invalidate opinions.
I agree that infinite portals leading to infinite destinations could get a little crowdy. However, the idea seems to work out alright in Sigil, although it's true that the presence, operation, and destinations of these portals seem to be controlled by a divine entity (even if such control is often random, whimsical, or flat-out sadistic). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 May 2012 19:15:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:26:55
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@Wooly - Agreed.
It should work like it did in The Chronicles of Amber. You could not get from any one plane to any other - you had to travel through many other realities first.
If you haven't read the series, it worked like this: You would have to move to a world that was very similar, with a few changes, and then do it again, rinse and repeat, until enough 'changes' were made where you were at a completely different world (your destination). In fact, this ability was one the ways of gauging an Amberite's power - the fewer in-between planes you needed to access, the better you were at it. Large changes from world to world were harder to visualize, which is what made it more difficult (but faster).
Very similar to how hyperspatial jumps work - shorter jumps are safer, but slower.
So, to move from the world of Star Trek to the world of the Smurfs, you'd probably have to move through dozens - if not hundreds - of worlds. Mind you, the D&D Earth* isn't all that different from other D&D worlds, so it shouldn't be all that hard to reach.
*My assumption here is that the 'modern' D&D Earth is the future of the one portrayed in the Gothic Earth Gazeteer. This would also be the Earth of Gamma World and Boot Hill (and all sorts of TV/Movie/book tropes should exist, like clandestine groups with hidden agendas, and non-humans living amongst us in secret).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2012 19:28:55 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 20:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It should work like it did in The Chronicles of Amber. You could not get from any one plane to any other - you had to travel through many other realities first.
-Using this concept, how would that work if you throw out the notion of any kind of "planar geography" like I do, and rationalize different planes as simply different 'frequencies'? That one can't simply go from frequency 1 to frequency 3 without first switching over to frequency 2 and 'establishing' oneself there first? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 01:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not consider a one-shot crossover as a canon event, unless it's later referenced in regular canon.
That's a rather difficult position to maintain, though, especially in comic book universes.
I know from my own long-time experiences with both DC and Marvel, and many of the independent publishers, that some writers will go into a inter-publisher crossover event with the intent of making it canon in one universe or another later. But as is always the case with "open worlds" and the powerful oversights of Editor-in-Chiefs and Chief-Creative-Officers, they largely have the final say as to what can be considered canon and what can't. Thus, inter-publisher crossover story-lines that might build toward canon, can sometimes be washed away by the high-ups, because they feel it's not appropriate to make such material canon.
The upcoming Spider-Men crossover from Marvel -- which teams classic Spidey with his Ultimate counterpart is a fine example. There's rumours from the writers that this will be a canon in-universe Marvel event, while others suggest that it will simply be a dream-threat concocted by Spidey's old villain, Mysterio. Which leaves the door wide open on the subject of whether this event will be considered canon in either side of the Marvel Universe. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 03:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not consider a one-shot crossover as a canon event, unless it's later referenced in regular canon.
That's a rather difficult position to maintain, though, especially in comic book universes.
I know from my own long-time experiences with both DC and Marvel, and many of the independent publishers, that some writers will go into a inter-publisher crossover event with the intent of making it canon in one universe or another later. But as is always the case with "open worlds" and the powerful oversights of Editor-in-Chiefs and Chief-Creative-Officers, they largely have the final say as to what can be considered canon and what can't. Thus, inter-publisher crossover story-lines that might build toward canon, can sometimes be washed away by the high-ups, because they feel it's not appropriate to make such material canon.
The upcoming Spider-Men crossover from Marvel -- which teams classic Spidey with his Ultimate counterpart is a fine example. There's rumours from the writers that this will be a canon in-universe Marvel event, while others suggest that it will simply be a dream-threat concocted by Spidey's old villain, Mysterio. Which leaves the door wide open on the subject of whether this event will be considered canon in either side of the Marvel Universe.
Well, intra-company stuff is one thing. I was speaking of inter-company stuff. For example, I'd not consider it canon that Grunge met Archie, unless it was later referred to as a canon event, in either title (and then only canon for that title). Ditto for when the Punisher dropped in on Riverdale. And so on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 04:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not consider a one-shot crossover as a canon event, unless it's later referenced in regular canon.
That's a rather difficult position to maintain, though, especially in comic book universes.
I know from my own long-time experiences with both DC and Marvel, and many of the independent publishers, that some writers will go into a inter-publisher crossover event with the intent of making it canon in one universe or another later. But as is always the case with "open worlds" and the powerful oversights of Editor-in-Chiefs and Chief-Creative-Officers, they largely have the final say as to what can be considered canon and what can't. Thus, inter-publisher crossover story-lines that might build toward canon, can sometimes be washed away by the high-ups, because they feel it's not appropriate to make such material canon.
The upcoming Spider-Men crossover from Marvel -- which teams classic Spidey with his Ultimate counterpart is a fine example. There's rumours from the writers that this will be a canon in-universe Marvel event, while others suggest that it will simply be a dream-threat concocted by Spidey's old villain, Mysterio. Which leaves the door wide open on the subject of whether this event will be considered canon in either side of the Marvel Universe.
Well, intra-company stuff is one thing. I was speaking of inter-company stuff. For example, I'd not consider it canon that Grunge met Archie, unless it was later referred to as a canon event, in either title (and then only canon for that title). Ditto for when the Punisher dropped in on Riverdale. And so on.
I'm talking about intra-company stuff as well. Like the classic Amalgam universe which merged some of DC and Marvels' most popular characters into the one universe. There has been one or two brief references over the years -- especially in Marvels' many multiversal references -- which hint at this alternate Earth still existing somewhere.
And there's been speculation, too, that this Amalgam universe still exists as one of the "52" universes in the DCU. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 17:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It should work like it did in The Chronicles of Amber. You could not get from any one plane to any other - you had to travel through many other realities first.
-Using this concept, how would that work if you throw out the notion of any kind of "planar geography" like I do, and rationalize different planes as simply different 'frequencies'? That one can't simply go from frequency 1 to frequency 3 without first switching over to frequency 2 and 'establishing' oneself there first?
To answer this question I shall use an analogy, which will help, but will not be perfect, because all anaologies are never perfect. When bats wish to extend the length of their echo location, they can't simply jump across frequencies. they have to slowly adjust from one to the other. Why? Because, they are trying to obtain a frequency set that's ideal for bouncing off the object in question and returning to them to creat a comprehendible schema in their brain.
Now, let's return to what I've said about plains for a moment, holding what I believe to be true. The spheres, within the greater sphere still have a single point of reference where they are attached to. this point of reference, foci, or axis, is the central beem that serves as the relational point for all the greater plains. If the model as stated in my previous post holds. One cannot simply travel to one point to another point in the verse to another point in the verse, as somce points in the verse would in fact lie in between. I can further elebarate if necesary. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 18:57:51
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| Interactions between worlds have been hugely downplayed in the sources while the god-abode outer planes -- a matter of mystery and uncertainty to all, as Ed has repeated -- were unduly dwelt over and made to seem more certain than they are. A full description of how the Realms multiverse seems to work would include both these sides; we're lacking so much information about the world-links that I don't know how it would go, or quite what is and isn't contingent rules-artefact material. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 19:56:49
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| Agreed, information is indeed lacking. I took my first assumption as stated in a previous post, from the glass prison, as well as what I know of the older cosmology and it's relations to near and far eastern cosmology. My entire argumentation hinges upon these points. I shall admit that I am rather partle to this conception of the verse, of the beam, for a whole host of reasons. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 21:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
To answer this question I shall use an analogy, which will help, but will not be perfect, because all anaologies are never perfect. When bats wish to extend the length of their echo location, they can't simply jump across frequencies. they have to slowly adjust from one to the other.
-Works for me. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2012 : 18:53:30
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I'd just say its like dialing a radio...
If you know the 'station' you want (familiarity with your destination is even covered in the D&D books), you can dial right to it (Elminster has presets!). But if you are just 'browsing' and trying to find something along the lines of what you want (a blue rose, for instance), you would have to slowly 'dial' your way through the frequencies to find it. Coincidentally enough, Gunpowder does not work in Amber (just like in FR), so one Amberite had to spend a lot of time searching various realities until he found a variant that did (until he did, it was thought to be impossible... but nothing should be impossible in an infinite multiverse).
So jumping to specific locations in not impossible (in fact, I read an Omni magazine article back in the 70's that said much the same about artificial wormholes), but knowledge of the destination before hand is key, and if your data is incomplete, you can ere greatly (and some worlds are anathema to life itself, so its a dangerous game to play). This is why the 'slow but steady' approach is considered the best by cautious planeswalkers. You have to physically BE in these worlds for a few moments (or longer), and some worlds could kill you in a heartbeat.
Suppose you are looking for that blue rose, and it turns out its located in Hell, or the Abyss - wouldn't that suck? You'd find it, but you may not live to enjoy it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 18:53:57 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 09:56:10
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I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 15:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by see
I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity.
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all. I don't think that's something to be concerned about. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
I don't particularly care what cosomology FR has, as long as it isn't shared with another setting. Bad enough to have RSEs; having Orcus die (again) for some other setting shouldn't have any repercussions for the Realms. And yes, this means the duplication of every D&D world that has Orcus and an Abyss having its own Orcus in its own Abyss, whether that seems lame to you or not.
If WotC was owned and controlled by a single individual like, say, Steve Jackson Games, I would trust a, "Well, we're older and wiser now, and aren't going to muck with the joint cosmology in ways that affect individual settings." But it isn't; it has all sorts of personnel turnover and profit pressure. Hasbro-owned WotC is no more able to make a precommitment to that than DC Comics is able to precommit to avoiding another multi-title crossover event that will throw wrenches into any specific title's ongoing continuity.
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all. I don't think that's something to be concerned about.
I provide a decent enough analysis of this system in my entry for the Code of Conduct -- Section D.1. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:44:28
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This is why I pasted my own concept of Archtypes (derived from the early planer/god books in D&D, concerning non-human deities) over the model of the Great Wheel.
Every deity lives somewhere in the Outer Planes (non-deities live in the inner planes... usually), but those deities in the Outer Planes are really the archtypes. For some worlds, it simply ends there (this is how it works for Demi-humans on most - but not all - worlds).
Then there is the local cosmology, which is like a local neighborhood. This is (normally) set-up and governed by an Overgod. Most worlds have these (but once again, there are numerous exceptions - GH being the most well-known). This means that "what happens on Toril stays on Toril" (or Krynn, Mystara, Aebrynis, Vegas, etc)
When a deity (archtype) gains a presence on a world, it sends a single uber-avatar (greater Manifestation) to that local cosmology to govern its affairs there. This Manifestation is like a combination governor and clone, and is self-aware and only remotely connected to the original. But like a clone, it will eventually gain quirks and other personality traits over time, and start to differ from the original. A lot of these changes are brought-about by mortal belief, because mortal Faith alters the cosmology (and gods) to fit those beliefs (which is why divinity is a double-edged sword). If a deity dies on a certain world, that just means its manifestation is vanquished; if the deity was part of an archtype, then it has a chance to respawn (but normally only if mortals were unaware of the deicide - mortal belief itself would prevent the return).
This is also what makes it so dangerous for worlds to rely on the default cosmology (some say the True cosmology...): local cosmologies act as a buffer, and things in the Great Wheel remain much more 'constant' then they do in the local cosmic neighborhoods. When a being like Vecna tries to make changes to their status in a world without a local cosmology, it affects the entire multiverse, which is a VERY bad thing (and Io - the presumed overgod of Greyspace - is an uncaring reptile).
However, under normal conditions, there are enough worlds that do not have local cosmologies and just use the wheel (along with most demi-humans) to help stabilize it - one world's belief's changing cannot alter the cosmos all by itself - it would take a majority of the worlds using the default (Great Wheel) cosmology to believe those exact same things, and that is nearly impossible (which is what makes the Great Wheel so damn stable, despite the ability of mortals to alter the reality within the outer planes).
Inner planes are stable regardless - mortal belief has no effect on them. Only a major cross-world, multiversal event could alter its structure (as happened recently), because primordials are NOT deities, and mortal belief has no power over their domains.
I am unfamiliar with 4e cosmology, so forgive me if I am repeating what is currently canon (or disagreeing with it). I think the Elemental Maelstrom IS the natural condition of the universe, and the separated (Inner) planes were the result of the godswar and the imprisonment of most primordials. As we know from our RW science, certain energies and chemicals react violently when thrown together - their power increase exponentially. I think the primordials were all separated in Inner, Quasi-, and Para-elemental planes to keep these beings apart, and deny them much of their combined power. This restructuring (and partial imprisonment) would have to have been the work of extremely powerful (cosmic) beings, like overgods and higher - all working together.
That means the Inner planes were all artificial (to the natural universe), and Somehow this once invulnerable structure was made fragile, and was shattered when Mystra fell. This is why I think we don't know the whole story - I think what happened on Toril (and within Realmspace's cosmology) didn't do all these things by itself - there are too many fail-safes in-place. I think this was a well-coordinated plan, enacted on a myriad of levels (and worlds), that all came together.
Since we don't know what was behind it all - who were the real players and who were just pawns - then we don't even know if the outcome was the one they wanted... obviously it wasn't Shar's. In fact, there may have been so many uber-baddies from various worlds involved that they may have all been disappointed, as each tried to back-stab the others and steal the ultimate power for themselves.
On the other hand, Asmodeus seems satisfied with the results. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 May 2012 16:50:05 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 17:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I’m no fan of returning the Great Wheel to the Realms, but for those that are would a sort of blending of the Great Wheel and the Great Tree work?
For example, you could say that the Realms are part of the Great Wheel, it’s just that the names for certain of the planes are different in the Realms then in places like Krynn or other worlds.
Something like that?
That is ALWAYS what I have done. Every deities domain can be reached by the great wheel, but only the planar travellers and deities know that. Though Bane lives on the Barons of Doom and Despair, THAT is part of Acheron of the great wheel.
I was doing this before I played in the realms in middle school when I used all the viking and greek gods. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 17:13:15
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I would like a return to the Great Wheel but I would like to see the 4e elememts of Feywild kept. I always played with a faerie realm being parallel.
The Elemental Chaos is a good idea as well. If they kept the great wheel and made all the elemental planes merge I am OK with that, but I really Dislike the Abyss being part of it.
By far the WORST thing 4e did cosmology wise was the Astral Sea. I guess it worked to shoehorn Spelljammer, but I found the actual ocean part of it to be jarring. It was an excuse to play Pirates of Blackwater with D&D. Please just bring the Astral back as it was. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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5e Cosmology
