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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2012 : 20:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all.
At all? The whole Orcus-killed-by-Kiaransalee-and-becomes-undead plot done for Planescape sure looks like it made its way into my copy of Demihuman Deities . . . . |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 20:48:26
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| I agree with Wooly's statement. Krynn's Cataclysm (apparently several of them) had no real impact on the Realms. If there's any real references to apocalyptic Greyhawk events (which I suppose have occurred, in theory) then I completely missed them. Even Planescape's Blood War remains almost entirely unknown in the Realms. Certainly, sometimes powerful entities manage to crossover to the Realms and bring a few of their problems with them, but they really don't generally accomplish anything of significance. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 21:16:36
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The Blood War is something that takes places in the planes - the Prime Material is considered a 'neutral zone'.
That doesn't mean they have to play nice - it just means that fiends can ignore the edicts of their superiors while on the prime, and even work-together for mutual profit (even if that profit is just eating people or sowing destruction). Or, they can just rip each other to pieces like usual...
Just my take on it.
As for the Astral having a sea - I thought the whole plane was a sea - I've always thought that. I think the astral looks however the people traveling upon think its supposed to look, so if you have a boat, you're sailing. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of what you say Mournblade.
Except its Pirates of Darkwater, not Blackwater.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 May 2012 21:17:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 04:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the 2E era, when the Realms was connected to just about all other settings, major events in those settings did not impact the Realms at all.
At all? The whole Orcus-killed-by-Kiaransalee-and-becomes-undead plot done for Planescape sure looks like it made its way into my copy of Demihuman Deities . . . .
Of course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
But that wasn't even my point. Having a mechanism that links settings does not mean that events in one setting impact another. As Ayrik said, the Cataclysm did not affect the Realms
Even if I didn't like Spelljammer, Planescape, and the Great Wheel, I'd still find it a more elegant solution than trying to wrap my brain around how Lolth A is identical to but has no connection to Lolth B, who is identical to but has no connection to Lolth C, who is identical to but has no connection to Lolth D, and so on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 05:15:01
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They are all connected to the Ultra-Lolth!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 09:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertOf course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
Your faith that the next time it would be a figure as marginal to FR as Orcus was to 2e FR is not one I share. For myself, when somebody working on the Greyhawk line six years from now brainstorms the idea, "Hey, let's have Vecna kill Bane and take his stuff!", I'd rather rely on, "Um, wait, that doesn't make any sense" as a defense than, "Um, wouldn't that upset the FR customers?"
How about you? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 12:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertOf course, because Planescape and the Realms were linked. And yet, just because it was mentioned does not mean it had any impact whatsoever, on the Realms.
Your faith that the next time it would be a figure as marginal to FR as Orcus was to 2e FR is not one I share. For myself, when somebody working on the Greyhawk line six years from now brainstorms the idea, "Hey, let's have Vecna kill Bane and take his stuff!", I'd rather rely on, "Um, wait, that doesn't make any sense" as a defense than, "Um, wouldn't that upset the FR customers?"
How about you?
It was all linked for several years without any of that happening. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 15:09:38
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| I'm still pondering the possibilities of Markus' last comment ... ultra-lolth (ultra-lloth?) ... as some kind of daemon/yugoloth exile ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 15:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm still pondering the possibilities of Markus' last comment ... ultra-lolth (ultra-lloth?) ... as some kind of daemon/yugoloth exile ...
Based on the language, I take his argumentation to be that all the goods have world avators, who then form lesser avators, when they want to. If a world avator is slain, like with Lolth in one world, it doesn’t mean that the God Lolth is slain, but that only that the one avator related with the world is slain.
Think of it as a tear system, main Lolth, then
World lolth, then
Lesser avator lolth.
Following this argumnentation, one could only kill Lolth, the overarching lolth, when they go to where she resides on the outer plains, and in so doing kill everyone els in the tear system.
I shall leave this hear for the moment, and not carry it any further.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 16:15:30
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Ah, I was really focussing on a tangent unrelated to Markus' other arguments. Musing upon the possibilities of Lolth originally being an unusually powerful Ultroloth, and based on nothing more than coincidental similarities in wording (Ultra-lloth). Lolth was also named Lloth in older writings, and some confusion about her name existed until Lolth was adopted as standard. I imagine an (exiled?) Arch-Yugoloth who embraced more Chaotic ways, seized the 66th layer of the Abyss, and opportunistically installed herself as goddess over a corrupted race of elves. In some ways this explanation would even offer a lot of answers to problematic alignment questions. And I don't see any real problem with "insectoid" loths adapting more "arachnid" appearance/themes, especially one who turns to (or is reshaped by) Chaos and the Abyss.
Of course I'm not asserting this is the way it is. The entire notion is contraindicated by WotC's canon, the grand Seldarine soap opera, and all those terrible novels written by RAS. It's just an option I personally find more amenable for my version of the Realms, and I think some kind of backstory (or adventure) involving Lloth usurping the power of former-demon-god-of-layer-66 would be very interesting. Maybe it's not incompatible at all - the goddess Lolth might have usurped Lloth in times past, or treacherously betrayed her ex-Seldarine ally, and with or without some revisionist history it's not like she'd announce her greatest deceit to her drow worshippers. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 May 2012 16:35:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 18:15:01
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Thats something I thought of a long time ago - the Ultra-Lloth - but never found a good fit for it, so figured I'd just toss the name out there and let someone else run with it. 
I've already HB-ed Araushnee as a dark-eleven Eladrin, from a time before the elves split-off from them (in Faerie/Tintageer), and she was a noble, and made royalty (the S'Eladrin) by Cor Ellion (then just a wildly popular member of the royal court of Titania).
So the 'loth connection didn't work for me. On the other hand, some uber-power (Lloth) of the Abyss may have absorbed the original Araushnee, which is how she became Lolth (which also resolves the minor continuity glitch of the duel-name created by RAS). Perhaps Zenassu was an ultraloth, or even a minion of an Obyrith Araushnee slew when she got to the Abyss? I now thinking that beastlords - those powers that hold dominion over specific genus of creatures - are all Obyriths, and that she slew that Obyrith/beastlord of arachnids and absorbed its power (thus becoming something akin to an Ultroloth).
Its a bit 'out there', but it works to marry my (and the canon) concepts of her to the Ultoloth thing (if you were so inclined to use it). By the same token, you could say Araushnee didn't really win that conflict at all...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 May 2012 18:17:11 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 05:30:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was all linked for several years without any of that happening.
And if I believed that the same people who were making decisions for FR, Spelljammer, other settings, and the planes for TSR were going to be in charge of the decisions five years from now, that past performance would reassure me. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 20:14:09
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*** Raise Scroll ***
This isn't precisely the thread I was looking for, but since it is connected to the line of reasoning that lead me to a new thought on a meta-cosmology, its as good as any.
So today I was going back to my concept of Ordials - those beings even more ancient (and powerful) then the Primordials. Almost like arch-primordials. I had borrowed Quale's concept of the demiurge and made it female. I need an male aspect for an archtect-like being... a 'builder'. The Demiurge is creativity personified, and represents the arts, but the Builder represents a more sytematic (and useful) approach to creation. This being would be Ao.
However, I still have a wee bit of a problem with the Giant pantheon, which I set way back to the pre-sundering days, and is one of the seven first deific pantheons to come into existence. I've already decided that the dwarven 'High god' is the same as the giantish All-father, Annam.
And then it struck me... I could make Annam Ao. 
The giants were created to help build the world - then an entire near-infinite plane (the Prime Material). What better workers then giants, eh? Then the Godwar happens and the world gets Sundered, and Ao/Annam goes off into his own demi-plane with his folk - one connected to the all the Primes so that he can continue to help build the worlds (now just Crystal spheres - the shattered remains of the 'one world'). This is the plane that the Fey eventually discover and flee to, and it becomes known as the feywild (a name the giants hate, because it was theirs first).
This means that back on Toril, a small bit of the original giantish empire exists as an 'echo'. This would have been the first Ostoria. Then at some point Mystryl 1.0 (or whatever) falls and we get another ToT/Spelllague event - I think this would have happened sometime around the founding of Nethril or perhaps a bit earlier (still working that part out). The usual happens (magical chaos) and lands get swapped around, and a big chunk of Old Ostoria gets transported to Toril (in the Heartvale region). This 'New Ostorio' eventually gets own, separate name - Jhothûn.
This helps explain the conflicts in the giantish lore - they were part of the pre-sundered world, then they were part of the Feywild, and then they were part of Toril (again... sort of). The first races of giants - the Planer Giants - are larger and more powerful then their material descendents (we have two varieties of titans, Fomorians, and cyclops' in canon).
Here's the problem with all of that - whats the deal with Ulutiu? Obviously an archfey - some sort of beastlord I am thinking, going by his physical description in Twilight (in Realms of Infamy). I have to re-work that story to fit the over-cosmology, and it also should have occurred after the giants returned to Toril (so the Great Glacier isn't as old as people think). Also, this means Ao himself should have been exiled from Realmspace for a time, which seems really odd... but it could work for us. I am thinking this is why he did nothing about the Imaskari Godwall... he simply wasn't around then. It could also be why he had to hand the care-taking of the weave over to someone else (Mystryl).
What this line of conjecture does is make Ao more powerful (because now he is multi-spheric), but at the same time less enigmatic because of his human-like faults (he has made mistakes, and I still have to re-work the Ulutiu thing as more of an allegory). And lastly, it de-powers him just a tad, since obviously there are powers greater then him and things he can't control (like why he had to leave Realspace for a time). He is 'The Architect' - the designer of the physical worlds, All-father to the giants (and others), and 'high God' of the dwarves (who is above Moradin... Moradin may just be aspect). Lastly, it means that Abeir isn't really Toril's other half at all, since I have it where all worlds were one before the first Sundering. The Sundering was really two-fold - the shattering of the prime Material (into spheres) and then the exiling of the primordials to Abeir (so Abeir is more of a 'prison plane' - a place where all the 'unwanted junk' of the multiverse gets dumped). I figure this HAS TO BE SO, since the primordials are now loose all over the D&D multiverse, not just on Toril.
I am also leaning toward making Io his 'divine feminine' counterpart - The demiurge. Not sure about that one. I am not really feeling rolling the world serpent thing into creativity and the arts (but maybe... the scaly races seem drawn to the arts).
Anyway, just some more of my crazy thoughts about everything. I have to go out now, but I'll try to work on the Ulutiu angle when I return. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2012 06:30:18 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 21:31:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*** Raise Scroll ***
This isn't precisely the thread I was looking for, but since it is connected to the line of reasoning that lead me to a new thought on a meta-cosmology, its as good as any.
So today I was going back to my concept of Ordials - those beings even more ancient (and powerful) then the Primordials. Almost like arch-primordials. I had borrowed Quale's concept of the demiurge and made it female. I need an male aspect for an archtect-like being... a 'builder'. The Demiurge is creativity personified, and represents the arts, but the Builder represents a more sytematic (and useful) approach to creation. This being would be Ao.
However, I still have a wee bit of a problem with the Giant pantheon, which I set way back to the pre-sundering days, and is one of the seven first deific pantheons to come into existence. I've already decided that the dwarven 'High god' is the same as the giantish All-father, Annam.
And then it struck me... I could make Annam Ao.
The giants were created to help build the world - then an entire near-infinite plane (the Prime Material). What better workers then giants, eh? Then the Godwar happens and the world gets Sundered, and Ao/Annam goes off into his own demi-plane with his folk - one connected to the all the Primes so that he can continue to help build the worlds (now just Crystal spheres - the shattered remains of the 'one world'). This is the plane that the Fey eventually discover and flee to, and it becomes known as the feywild (a name the giants hate, because it was theirs first).
This means that back on Toril, a small bit of the original giantish empire exists as an 'echo'. This would have been the first Ostoria. Then at some point Mystryl 1.0 (or whatever) falls and we get another ToT/Spelllague event - I think this would have happened sometime around the founding of Nethril or perhaps a bit earlier (still working that part out). The usual happens (magical chaos) and lands get swapped around, and a big chunk of Old Ostoria gets transported to Toril (in the Heartvale region). This 'New Ostorio' eventually gets own, separate name - Jhothûn.
This helps explain the conflicts in the giantish lore - they were part of the pre-sundered world, then they were not part of the Feywild, and then they were part of Toril. The first races of giants - the Planer Giants - are larger and more powerful then their material descendents (we have two varieties of titans, Fomorians, and cyclops' in canon).
Here's the problem with all of that - whats the deal with Ulutiu? Obviously an archfey - some sort of beastlord I am thinking, going by his physical description in Twilight (in Realms of Infamy). I have to re-work that story to fit the over-cosmology, and it also should have occurred after the giants returned to Toril (so the Great Glacier isn't as old as people think). Also, this means Ao himself should have been exiled from Realmspace for a time, which seems really odd... but it could work for us. I am thinking this is why he did nothing about the Imaskari Godwall... he simply wasn't around then. It could also be why he had to hand the care-taking of the weave over to someone else (Mystryl).
What this line of conjecture does is make Ao more powerful (because now he is multi-spheric), but at the same time less enigmatic because of his human-like faults (he has made mistakes, and I still have to re-work the Ulutiu thing as more of an allegory). And lastly, it de-powers him just a tad, since obviously there are powers greater then him and things he can't control (like why he had to leave Realspace for a time). He is 'The Architect' - the designer of the physical worlds, All-father to the giants (and others), and 'high God' of the dwarves (who is above Moradin... Moradin may just be aspect). Lastly, it means that Abeir isn't really Toril's other half at all, since I have it where all worlds were one before the first Sundering. The Sundering was really two-fold - the shattering of the prime Material (into spheres) and then the exiling of the primordials to Abeir (so Abeir is more of a 'prison plane' - a place where all the 'unwanted junk' of the multiverse gets dumped). I figure this HAS TO BE SO, since the primordials are now loose all over the D&D multiverse, not just on Toril.
I am also leaning toward making Io his 'divine feminine' counterpart - The demiurge. Not sure about that one. I am not really feeling rolling the world serpent thing into creativity and the arts (but maybe... the scaly races seem drawn to the arts).
Anyway, just some more of my crazy thoughts about everything. I have to go out now, but I'll try to work on the Ulutiu angle when I return.
Add the dragons as the other part of the tool, and you've got the other great builders. And As for where Ao was, part of the time he was ensuring that the plain of madness remained far far away from his creation.
My creation myth has wholes in it, but I think the sea of fallen stars wasn't an accident, but something that was part of the design all along. Of course, I might place creater significance into the world serpent than you do Marcus. I keep having to stop though, because there are information wholes, and places where the logic can't go, because I'm slow to simply create something because I don't want to wreck something that's cannon. At the least I don't wnat to create more contridictions. Well back to many arrows. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 07:03:00
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I had Gaea as the world serpent (who is also now sundered, along with her brother and lover Ymir - the essence of material matter), and Io is male (actually sex-neutral, methinks, but whatever), so I really don't know about that. Io can't be the world serpent.
On the other hand, in some of my earliest musings I referred to the highest order of Ordials as Drækons - and ancient Celstial word for 'being of immense power' - an Uber-primoridal). Those were more like the oriental dragons of mythology (not those D&D Lung dragons, which are mere shadows of the true celestial ones).
So the very first beings - the ones that represented the most primal concepts of the universe - are all 'draconic' (sort of - they think more along the lines of the 'reptilian brain').
Thus Ao, Ymir, Io, Gaea, Kronos, etc can all go by serpent/scaly aliases, since this is along the lines of how they were envisioned initially. Beings of incredible power and cold, calculating intellect. So the whole 'world serpent' thing could just be a confuscation of ancient truths rendered into modern myths.
On the other end of the spectrum - the opposites of the primordials - are the elder evils. Beings that existed before the universe as we know it was created. This would include Cthon and all the other cthulhuesque beings and critters (and the Far Realms is what the universe looked like before God/whatever created the multiverse from that chaos).
As for why Io created the dragons - they were to harness the energies of the maelstrom and mold them into something with structure, just as the giants were to harness the elements and shape the universe from that. They were supposed to work together... until something went wrong. The giants usurped the draconic dominion over the energies and tried to enslave the dragons. Five elements, five energies - each with its corresponding counterpart (although I understand that was another thing 4e screwed up). There were three parts to the first world - the heavens were to be ruled by the Drækons, the earth the giants, and the Underworld the Tanar (elemental beings, which we sometimes call Dgen, or 'genies'). Somehow a taint seeped into the world, and the giants and dragons went to war, and many of the Tanar were corrupted (became demons - Tanar-ri - literally 'corrupted elementals').
But now I am moving away from Giants, Dragons, Annam, and Ao and into fiendology, which is a whole 'nother huge subject. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2012 07:19:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 18:09:58
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Having a day to think about this, I think I am stretching things too far to make it work. Annam is just not ambivalent enough to be Ao.
Plus it gives way too much power to the Giantish/Dwarvish Overgod. Annam can remain 'The architect' in my customized cosmology, but Ao needs to be 'The Caretaker'. Someone who creates needs passion, but someone who administrates needs to be impartial.
So Annam remains more of a lower-tier Ordial (Prime-Ordial), and Ao remains an intermediate-level Overpower (simply an Ordial).
So we have Prime Ordials and Prime Evils. 
EDIT: On the other hand, I almost forgot that the Four dragon Kings (celestial dragons of oriental mythology) are all named Ao. In my HB cosmology I need five celestial dragon rulers for the five energies, so I just happen to need a fifth one (for sonic energy, which is the corresponding energy to life, or 'wood'). Thus, 'Ao' may just be a title and not a name (like 'the God'), and our FR Ao could be the missing fifth element (energy, actually). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2012 18:23:35 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 18:29:28
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| It's a brilliant idea, that Annam is Ao. I never liked that the Realmspace is ruled by one untouchable power, too monotheistic for me. In my cosmology that fix is perfect. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 07:05:10
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| I like the Astral Sea/Elemental Chaos model and intend to keep it in my game should it be changed back to the wheel/tree. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 17:51:56
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Yeah, parts of it are pretty good, and I've reconciled most of the disparate lore.
I've been using a lot of numerology for my cosmology as well - everything revolving around trinities, and the mystical significance of five and six. I've also developed a trinity of life to explain away a lot of the Undead stuff - each person is composed of an Animus (the motive force derived from the material plane), the Spirit (the consciousness, which comes from the astral), and the Soul (the immortal, 'moral fiber' of a being that comes from the aether). It's the Body, Mind, & sou thing interpreted into D&D, and when anyone (or two) pieces are missing you get an undead. Each also corresponds to a different part of the mind - Your spirit is your conscious mind, your soul your subconscious, and your animus the reptilian brain.
I am also still trying to work out where each piece is 'stored' - it not how it normally works. The Body will probably be the heart, but the spirit is the shadow and the soul is one's reflection (hence why vampires do not cast reflections). Strangely, its really the animus I am having the most problems with - in order to make zombie (trope) lore work the animus should be in the brain stem. The spirit-in-shadow thing is a bit awkward, but it works; Its the 'free spirit' within everyone - the part that doesn't think, it just reacts to stimulus and seeks pleasure. Thus, it works for both fey-types and all the 'ebil shadow' lore we have (because the Shadow of a person is the easiest part to corrupt). Normally the 'dream state' helps fulfill all the subconscious fantasies, else they would manifest in the real world (so a serial killer becomes what it is because something is stealing its dreams).
A bit convoluted, but it all works for me. now I just have to see if it works on a game table. Thats just one example of how I managed to get 'the trinity' into my mythos. Three 'worlds' originally, then three dimensions (the main three planes), and then three states of existence - everything is built off of that. It wasn't just the True World that was shattered/sundered, it was the very essence of mortals. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2012 17:57:07 |
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5e Cosmology
