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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I don't have a problem with what they do for the Forgotten Realms...I mean, it wasn't so long ago that many thought the Sun revolved around Earth...and we seemed to have survived the "change" eh?

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This would only a viable argument if the sun did indeed revolve around the Earth, and that suddenly changed without warning or explanation.

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BUT Wooly, the people THOUGHT the Sun revolved around the earth...and that made it "true" didn't it?

Just because someone writes a "theory" of how the planes are, does not mean they actually are that way.

I take the books as only what the sages and scholars of the day consider to be true...not what the actual truth is.

For me, the Great Wheel is the essential "Truth", but from that can be pulled any number of ideas about how things exist. I don't have to fully use things as presented.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Even people thought the sun revolved around the Earth, it did not physically change the nature of the universe when it was determined to be otherwise.

The planar changes from 2E to 3E changed some aspects of planar travel, and that and isolating the Realms from everything else meant that much of the prior lore referring to planar travel -- including deities coming to the Realms from elsewhere -- was now more difficult or canonically impossible. And then 4E did it again.

You can refer to planar theory for a lot of things -- but the changing of a theory should not invalidate known history.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I don't have a problem with what they do for the Forgotten Realms...I mean, it wasn't so long ago that many thought the Sun revolved around Earth...and we seemed to have survived the "change" eh?

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This would only a viable argument if the sun did indeed revolve around the Earth, and that suddenly changed without warning or explanation.

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BUT Wooly, the people THOUGHT the Sun revolved around the earth...and that made it "true" didn't it?

Just because someone writes a "theory" of how the planes are, does not mean they actually are that way.

I take the books as only what the sages and scholars of the day consider to be true...not what the actual truth is.

For me, the Great Wheel is the essential "Truth", but from that can be pulled any number of ideas about how things exist. I don't have to fully use things as presented.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Actually, I think the Wheel is a far more elegant arrangement for planes than the Tree.

That said, I think it could be said that the planes of the Tree are simple levels of or domains on the planes of the Wheel. That's an easy enough way to mesh them, though I dislike the necessity.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree. I know of nothing that says that Eberron, Mystara, or Blackmoor have any connections to anywhere else.

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Originally posted by Shemmy

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree. I know of nothing that says that Eberron, Mystara, or Blackmoor have any connections to anywhere else.

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Off the top of my head there was a shadow elf in 2e's 'Faces of Sigil' that was from Mystara IIRC.

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Markustay

I am sure if Eberron was around in 2e, it would have gotten the same minor nods both Athas and Mystara got in PS material. We can't say it isn't connected because of a lack of mentions, because it wasn't even created then ...

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Originally posted by Markustay

And since Blackmoor exists in some way in both the Mystara and Greyhawk settings, then Blackmoor does indeed have a very tenuous connection to Planescape as well.

Also, Shemmy pointed-out (in another thread) several cosmological features (beings, etc) that PS has in-common with parts of Mystara's cosmology. I know that doesn't prove they are connected (or the same beings), but since they are connected by NPCs, it makes sense that these other things are also one and the same.

I don't mind the Great tree at all - I think of it as a 'local neighborhood'. When Ao changed the rules of worship post-ToT (and made folks slowly forget about him), it makes sense that he actually altered their perceptions of the cosmos to help-along the new co-dependency situation. In other words, if gods now find mortals necessary, then mortals should also find gods are necessary. Knowledge of the Great Wheel lessens mortals awe of deities.

That being said, I still insist the Great Wheel exists, out beyond the Great Tree, and a mortal from the Realms could get there through the Shadowfel (as per canon), but should also be able to find 'back doors' within certain other outer planes (like the Hells, for example). This way, aside from the Plane of Shadow, mortals must pass through godly domains to get anywhere else - before, they didn't have to do that.

So the Tree just becomes a change in perception, which went along with Ao's changing the rules. All spheres should have this option of a 'local cosmology' overlay on the Great Wheel.

Eberron, on the other hand, follows a different pattern - its cosmology is more like a planetary system, so I think it is a physical set of worlds all existing within a single sphere. These other worlds should have gates to the great Wheel planes they are associated with, but are NOT the same as those planes. Travel to these other 'planets' is nearly impossible in Eberron - spelljamming doesn't work in it's sphere* - so traveling beyond them should be unheard of (but still possible). Since it is connected to the Shadowfel, just like any other world, it MUST be part of the same multiverse as all the other D&D worlds - its just a LOT harder to reach then most others.

I am sure if Eberron was around in 2e, it would have gotten the same minor nods both Athas and Mystara got in PS material. We can't say it isn't connected because of a lack of mentions, because it wasn't even created then - that would be like saying Nentir Vale isn't connected to PS or SJ. A lack of proof is not proof to the contrary.


*IIRC, planer-travel is also a lot more difficult in Eberron - you have to wait until there are conjunctions, or some-such. This means that moving beyond the local planes/planets of EB become even more risky, because you have a limited window during which to return. On the other hand, this means any Eberronese that get trapped in the Great Wheel planes would probably eventually find their way to Sigil (if they live), since they can't get home.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Actually, I think the Wheel is a far more elegant arrangement for planes than the Tree.

That said, I think it could be said that the planes of the Tree are simple levels of or domains on the planes of the Wheel. That's an easy enough way to mesh them, though I dislike the necessity.

Why do you prefer the whell over the tree? I am curious to hear someone's argument that knows more of the lore, as they may have bery valid reasons for doing so, beyond those already stated. Assume I know little.

2. Why do you find the idea of a a tree and a wheel distastful? as the formulation would allow for several features and explanations for me that seem resonable at first glance. Figuratively of course (tongue and cheek pun aside).

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Originally posted by Sightless

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Actually, I think the Wheel is a far more elegant arrangement for planes than the Tree.

That said, I think it could be said that the planes of the Tree are simple levels of or domains on the planes of the Wheel. That's an easy enough way to mesh them, though I dislike the necessity.

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Why do you prefer the whell over the tree? I am curious to hear someone's argument that knows more of the lore, as they may have bery valid reasons for doing so, beyond those already stated. Assume I know little.

2. Why do you find the idea of a a tree and a wheel distastful? as the formulation would allow for several features and explanations for me that seem resonable at first glance. Figuratively of course (tongue and cheek pun aside).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Sightless

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Quick question: Asides for not liking it when things are randomly retconned without explanation, does anyone really dislike the Great Tree being the 'official cosmology' over the Great Wheel? If so, why (asides for not liking unexplained retcons)? I've never understood personally. The lore that came with Planescape- locations, organizations, phenomena, individuals, events, and whatever else- was what made it so amazing, in my opinion. Does the theoretical shape of the multiverse being a tree or a wheel really interfere with your enjoyment of these things?

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Actually, I think the Wheel is a far more elegant arrangement for planes than the Tree.

That said, I think it could be said that the planes of the Tree are simple levels of or domains on the planes of the Wheel. That's an easy enough way to mesh them, though I dislike the necessity.

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Why do you prefer the whell over the tree? I am curious to hear someone's argument that knows more of the lore, as they may have bery valid reasons for doing so, beyond those already stated. Assume I know little.

2. Why do you find the idea of a a tree and a wheel distastful? as the formulation would allow for several features and explanations for me that seem resonable at first glance. Figuratively of course (tongue and cheek pun aside).

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I just thought the Wheel was laid out better, and better represented the interplay of the nine alignments.

Alignment is a huge factor on the planes, and the arrangement of the Wheel reflected this. Good relaxes and becomes more neutral, which fades into evil, which slowly moves back into neutrality and then back into good... And law becomes less orderly (neutral) and then looses all order (chaos), then chaos slowly becomes organized (neutral) and that organization increases back into law.

The Wheel reflects how alignments interact with each other, and how a person can gradually progress from one alignment to another. And despite the appellation of Upper Planes and Lower Planes, the Wheel shows that cosmically speaking, all alignments have equal weight.

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Originally posted by Sightless

It follows logically valadily and even seems sound enough, but in either case, tree or wheel a central point most exist. a trunk for the tree, or an axis, or pivit, for the wheel. in the case of your wheel, leaving the tree aside for the moment, what is your axis point? the Material plain?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just thought the Wheel was laid out better, and better represented the interplay of the nine alignments.

Alignment is a huge factor on the planes, and the arrangement of the Wheel reflected this. Good relaxes and becomes more neutral, which fades into evil, which slowly moves back into neutrality and then back into good... And law becomes less orderly (neutral) and then looses all order (chaos), then chaos slowly becomes organized (neutral) and that organization increases back into law.

The Wheel reflects how alignments interact with each other, and how a person can gradually progress from one alignment to another. And despite the appellation of Upper Planes and Lower Planes, the Wheel shows that cosmically speaking, all alignments have equal weight.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Sightless

It follows logically valadily and even seems sound enough, but in either case, tree or wheel a central point most exist. a trunk for the tree, or an axis, or pivit, for the wheel. in the case of your wheel, leaving the tree aside for the moment, what is your axis point? the Material plain?

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In Planescape, the planes of the Wheel are all accessible from the Outlands, which is the plane of true neutrality. In the artwork, that's the layout: the outer planes ringing the Outlands, which is the interior part of the Wheel. And in the center of the Outlands is an impossibly tall spire. Floating above that is a torus -- and inside that torus is Sigil, the City of Doors.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One could, however, make a planar connection to Eberron without much work... Either you could make portal providing a direct path, but still assume different universes (the way I assume that Earth and Toril are in different universes), or you could have one of the planes orbiting Eberron have a connection to a plane on the Wheel.

Actually, now that I think about it, you don't even have to assume different universe for Earth or Eberron... Maybe both are on alternate Primes that are somehow mostly isolated from the planes of the Wheel...

Edit: typo

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Originally posted by Sightless

This is true of perception, and will remain true if we discuss of this in the form of perception only. If however, we move beyond that and begin to discuss on what reality is, that thing that provides sensation that perception attempts to interpret, then that is another thing entirely. If reality dictates that the plain is a tree with each alignment a separate branch equally with the other, perhaps with certain plains being sub branches of the main one, then the reality holds. If reality is that the whole is a great wheel, and the entirety of the of it spins about the pivot, then it will hold. Both are conceptually valid, soundness is all that's left then.

The point here is that reality matters more than perception, for reality in addition to the mind and the senses determines our perceptions of reality. reality has a greater govern over our lives than mere perception does, for it influences perception. What is more we have the power to disregard our perceptions if we believe they are incorrect. If id did not do so, many things that people perceive as reality, which are in fact a part of reality itself, I would not believe in as reality, simply because I do not perceive them. I understand, even if I do not comprehend color, it's nature, its causes, and so on. It is a part of the reality of light refraction and the sensation of that upon color receptors in the eye. I use this over simplification of one of the many, many, many elements I must regard as existence in reality, even if my perception tells me otherwise. This point, is simply to place perception in its proper place is subservient to reality.

I believe the questions of this thread therefore, concern with the prefered reality of the new cosmology and not how it is percieved.

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