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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 06:06:20
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Semphar and Yaimmunnahar
In 1359 DR, Caliph Abu Bakr of Semphar surrendered to Hubadai's second, a general left to invest the Madinat. Abu Bakr sworse fealty to Yamun Khahan and was allowed to rule Semphar as satrap of the Khahan. This 'mercy' had one purpose, to allow Abu Bakr to tax his immensely wealthy people at a ruinous rate and turn most of the profits over to his suzerain. In this, he was assisted by a garrison of 5,000 Tuigan warriors, to enforce his increasingly unpopular edicts among his own people. More than half of these warriors later (1360 DR) left Semphar and joined the Tuigan advance to the West, but the remaining 2,000 still backed the Caliph's authority.
Insurrection was brewing, however, and it was not clear that this small garrison could contain Semphari resentment. The taxes may have been lowered, in any event, their gathering was less aggressive in the absence of enough Tuigan warriors to form warbands large enough to safely send into the lands of the provincial nobility and independent-minded tribal leaders. Caliph Abu Bakr, no fool and no stranger to intrigue, started a whispering campaign that his unpopular actions had all been forced by the Tuigan, under great duress.
No more is heard about Semphar for several real-world years and more or less twelve years in Realmstime. In 1372 DR, we are informed by the FRCS, Caliph Abu Bakr rules in Semphar and the nation is 'completely sovereign'. Evidently, Caliph Abu Bakr is no longer dependent on Tuigan approval for any of his actions. This is further strengthened when he is presented in LEoF as dreaming of establishing his own empire and seeking artifacts of lost Solon to 'defend his kingdom from the armies of Skuld'. The only threat he can see to his dream of a Semphari empire is Mulhorand, apparently, and there is no mention of him having any fear of Yaimmunnahar.
So, then, what happened between 1360 and 1372 DR that left the discredited and hated Abu Bakr as sole Caliph once more in Semphar, beholden to no foreign oppressor?
Where did the 2,000 Tuigan that were left in Semphar go? Were they massacred? Did they 'go native' and now form a loyal part of the Caliph's new army? Did they leave peacably?
Why did Hubadai Khahan, self-proclaimed heir to Yamun Khahan, not insist that Abu Bakr's oath of fealty to the Great Khan bound him to Yaimmunnahar after the fall of Yamun? Even if the treacherous Caliph could not care less for the empty wind of words, why did Hubadai, commander of tens of thousands of fierce warriors even at the lowest ebb of his fortunes immediately after the defeat in Thesk, not send an army to retake Semphar?*
It is very unlikely that the necessary rebuilding of a local military capability could proceed fast enough to match the pre-war strength in the time it would take the Tuigan to ride there, so it would be even easier than before. And they only needed 50,000 warriors before, achieving an easy victory which netted them an immensely rich prize. Hubadai's ambition was for a strong Tuigan nation. Why would he not want Semphar as the treasure chest and trading hub of that nation?
Did the unwillingness of Hubadai to enforce his claim over Semphar have anything to do with the threat of Solon? Did Ambuchar Devayam in his short-lived campaign of conquest from 1360-1362 DR control an army of undead** so large that even engaged in war with Ra-Khati and various independent settlements within the Katakoro, even when he was engaged against the hundreds of thousands of the Shou Lung empire, the spectre of his wrath still intimidated the mighty Khahan enough to make him afraid to send a military force within a few hundred miles of him?
Because if he did, there are going to be some pretty exciting things in the area around Solon. Anything intelligent and ambitious among the Rajah's armies is going to claim the area around ruined Solon. But from the LEoF, maybe all that excitement is already done with and Solon is once more a quiet ruin. If so, how did that happen? Was there no fall-out from such a powerful conquering army losing its commander? If there was fallout, on whom did it fall? Semphar? Ulgarth?
Even if Solon was the reason that the Tuigan did not react when Caliph Abu Bakr started to ignore their dictates and behave as he pleased***, why did Yaimmunnahar not conquer Semphar in 1363 DR or later, whenever the fallout over Solon had subsided enough?
It seems to me that Hubadai must have acceded gracefully to the Caliph's desire for independence and that he has somehow managed to convince Abu Bakr, who has every reason to fear the new nation of Yaimmunnahar is a threat to his country, that he means them no harm. How did he do this? Does he really mean them no harm?**** Why does he want an independent Semphar?
So, what are the modern relations between Semphar and its erstwhile suzerain in Yaimmunnahar? Are they allied? Trading partners? Neutral? Mutually ignoring the existence of each other like people who got drunk at the office Christmas party and made out in the copy room?
*If 5,000 Tuigan were enough to be considered able to hold it against native resentment (and 2,000 at least not considered an automatic suicide and abdication of authority), it follows that the 25,000+ man Semphari military described in The Horde Campaign had been substantially destroyed in the initial invasion (though it seems that less than a third of it was actually killed) or that it had been disbanded and disarmed to a great degree after the Tuigan occupation.
**And possibly other things. Constructs? His Durpari dissidents from 50+ years ago (and more likely, their descendants)? People of Solon who had lived there when he conquered it? Hill and mountain tribes of former Solonese territory recruited to his banner, with stories of their Imperial past? Oni, ogre magi, hobgoblins? Orcs from the Dustwall? Goblins? What could possibly have been enough force for Hubadai to fear that if he took Semphar, Solon could challenge his armies on the open plains of that country and pose such a threat to him that it was not worth the risk to take such a rich country?
***And possibly massacred their garrison, if only to placate his furious people and conciliate his more patriotic noble rivals.
****I can't imagine Abu Bakr being naive enough to ignore Yaimmunnahar completely as a threat without Hubadai giving some pretty strong assurances. If Abu Bakr fears distant Mulhorand, fully engaged in a quagmire of a war far to the west, more than neighbouring Yaimmunnahar, full of Tuigan clamouring for loot, glory and war, it is because he is certain that Hubadai will never invade Semphar. So either he's a world-class naive idiot (which doesn't seem to fit with the canny instinct for survival and political maneuvering he's shown in the past) or he has good reasons to be so sure.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2012 : 06:07:45
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Yrkhetep and the Armies of the Great Khan
At some point close to 1357 DR and for a period of at least three years, the coastal areas of Chondath and Turmish were subject to extensive manipulation of various groups of monsters and people and fought several battles. The most important of these was an invasion that came from the 'eastern wastelands', through 'Unther' and when it arrived in Chondath, still had some 2,500 people led by a Khan (arcanaloth in disguise). This army was apparently recruited from Wa or Kozakura, the Plain of Horses or the Hordelands and some apparently from the jungles of Tu'Lung.
While it might theoretically have crossed areas of Unther that today mostly belong to the Shaar and thus avoided battles with its armies*, how did it get to Unther without fighting some or all of Khazari, Semphar, the Tuigan, Murghom and Mulhorand?
I'm guessing a gate from the times of Imaskar or Anok-Imaskar that led from some south-western jungly part of Shou/Tu' Lung once ruled from Tempat Larang to the Raurin or Plains of Purple Dust. I don't know why the Anok-Imaskari would want such a gate and I don't think Imaskar itself ever penetrated this far south into Kara-Tur, but it just has to be something like that. Impossible that this army should have crossed all those countries during a time while tensions are high and not had to fight them.
On the other hand, this begs the question of what connection, if any, there is/was between Yrkhetep and Tan Chin. Tan Chin was ruling Solon at this time and Solon is in the 'wastes to the east' from Unther. Did Tan Chin allow this army passage through some portal known (or created by) him? Did Tan Chin manipulate Yrkhetep for some purpose of his own, possibly to make sure that no western forces would come to the aid of Ra-Khati and places further east?
*Or it could have happened at some point after Unther more or less fell apart in the Time of Troubles. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 08:42:25
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Solon and Semphar
In 1360, the Semphari city of Solon in the Raurin desert was buried under magma.
According to the trilogy of adventures for the Hordelands, though, not only is there a city of Solon in 1360 DR, but it has been ruled by Ambuchar Devayam since at least 50 years before, since that was the time it warred with Ra-Khati last. And Ambucher Devayam is not subject to the Caliph of Semphar at any point in time.
Were there two cities called Solon, one Semphari founded on the other side of the mountain range and one the ancient ruins of Imaskar ruled by the necromancer lich? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:06:04
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-Are you aware of the brainstorming done in the Utter East Campaign Setting + Map? If not: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19848754/Utter_East_Campaign__MAP!!!?pg=1
-Off hand, I don't know how much is tossed around in that thread that may be relevant here, since it's so large, but it is worth combing through with a semi-fine toothed comb- it is chock full of a lot of good ideas, hypothesizes, and information on various aspects of the Hordelands and surrounding environs.
-Anyway, in terms of where the Tuigan who were occupying the nation, we already know that when Yamun Khan died, many of the Tuigan that were under his banner went off in their own separate directions. He was the glue that kept them all together. While Yaimmunnahar was indeed established after his death, I think it is safe to say that (A) Hubadai was not the man/leader his father was and (B) the dissatisfaction/sentiment/whatever that caused many Tuigan to split and go back to their traditional tribal, territorial ways might have been present in many other Tuigan, including those who, for however long, considered themselves as part of Yaimmunnahar. It probably is the most reasonable conclusion that between those years, enough groups who flew the banner of Yaimmunnahar first, and their own clan second decided that occupying Semphar (as well as Khazari, and other formerly independent nation-states) did nothing to advance their own desires, the glory of their clans, the will of their gods, whatever, and decided to return to their former ways as nomads on the steppe. This would weaken their power to stay in control, and would allow Semphar to eventually gain back their independence. It could have been done through force, with the people of Semphar rising up and engaging their occupiers. It could have been done perhaps with Hubadai simply reading the writing on the wall, and ceding the territory back to the Sempharans in exchange for peace, knowing that any kind of conflict- and, it probably would have been semi-guerrilla- would not have been in the best interest of his fledgling kingdom. Since Mulhorand is involved, perhaps the Sempharans made a proverbial deal with the devil- Mulhorandi interference helped Semphar throw off the shackles that the Tuigan had placed on them, but at the cost of something, which the independent-once-more Semphar fears, hence their dislike/fear of Skuld. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 28 Feb 2012 19:18:19 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 19:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Are you aware of the brainstorming done in the Utter East Campaign Setting + Map? If not: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19848754/Utter_East_Campaign__MAP!!!?pg=1
I have read it, yes. The signal-to-noise ratio in terms of canon was pretty small, though.
I have no problem making up things on my own. My interest lies in establishing exactly everything that is known in canon that might have any impact on the issue. When I've done that, I can create what I like to fill any lacunae.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Off hand, I don't know how much is tossed around in that thread that may be relevant here, since it's so large, but it is worth combing through with a semi-fine toothed comb- it is chock full of a lot of good ideas, hypothesizes, and information on various aspects of the Hordelands and surrounding environs.
I've asked Markustay to summarise any conclusions reached in it, but haven't had a response in that scroll yet. I'd like to know if there is anything I'm missing in terms of canon. I've incorporated GHotR, LEoF, 2e Shining South, 3e Shining South, The Horde, The Horde Campaign, Kara-Tur Campaign Setting, Ochimo, Ronin Challenge and the basic Al-Qaedim book, but I'm afraid that there are nuggets of lore I've missed that would change my interpretations.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Anyway, in terms of where the Tuigan who were occupying the nation, we already know that when Yamun Khan died, many of the Tuigan that were under his banner went off in their own separate directions. He was the glue that kept them all together. While Yaimmunnahar was indeed established after his death, I think it is safe to say that (A) Hubadai was not the man/leader his father was and (B) the dissatisfaction/sentiment/whatever that caused many Tuigan to split and go back to their traditional tribal, territorial ways might have been present in many other Tuigan, including those who, for however long, considered themselves as part of Yaimmunnahar. It probably is the most reasonable conclusion that between those years, enough groups who flew the banner of Yaimmunnahar first, and their own clan second decided that occupying Semphar (as well as Khazari, and other formerly independent nation-states) did nothing to advance their own desires, the glory of their clans, the will of their gods, whatever, and decided to return to their former ways as nomads on the steppe. This would weaken their power to stay in control, and would allow Semphar to eventually gain back their independence. It could have been done through force, with the people of Semphar rising up and engaging their occupiers. It could have been done perhaps with Hubadai simply reading the writing on the wall, and ceding the territory back to the Sempharans in exchange for peace, knowing that any kind of conflict- and, it probably would have been semi-guerrilla- would not have been in the best interest of his fledgling kingdom. Since Mulhorand is involved, perhaps the Sempharans made a proverbial deal with the devil- Mulhorandi interference helped Semphar throw off the shackles that the Tuigan had placed on them, but at the cost of something, which the independent-once-more Semphar fears, hence their dislike/fear of Skuld.
Perhaps. On the other hand, I'm concerned that a large part of Hubadai's current political weakness is the fact that he has not allowed any of his followers to earn wealth and glory in a military campaign.
Taking Semphar would have strengthened his position vis a vis those who were not prepared to support him, not weakened it. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 20:30:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I've asked Markustay to summarise any conclusions reached in it, but haven't had a response in that scroll yet. I'd like to know if there is anything I'm missing in terms of canon. I've incorporated GHotR, LEoF, 2e Shining South, 3e Shining South, The Horde, The Horde Campaign, Kara-Tur Campaign Setting, Ochimo, Ronin Challenge and the basic Al-Qaedim book, but I'm afraid that there are nuggets of lore I've missed that would change my interpretations.
-There's also the 3e's Unapproachable East, and 2e's Old Empires, the novel Faces of Deception, and the Blood & Magic video game, of which most canon-relevant information is summed up by BadCatMan in said thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Perhaps. On the other hand, I'm concerned that a large part of Hubadai's current political weakness is the fact that he has not allowed any of his followers to earn wealth and glory in a military campaign.
Taking Semphar would have strengthened his position vis a vis those who were not prepared to support him, not weakened it.
-Very true. Nothing's better for morale- especially among the Tuigan- than some good ol' violence and conquest. In my own imagining of things, Khazari reestablished their independence through similar methods of guile, guerrilla violence, and alliances with other powers in the region. Perhaps, if Semphar was being belligerent in such a manner, the reason why soldiers were never sent to put them back in line was because, elsewhere across the territories that encompassed the Tuigan kingdom, similar events were already taking place, and Hubadai did not want to stretch his limited forces too thin. Perhaps Hubadai, through whatever means, had intelligence about Tan Chin and the undead army that would ravage or was already ravaging Solon, depending on the exact point of time, and decided that, at that point in time, retaining control of the area was not in the kingdom's best interest at that point. Ceding the territory and withdrawing his Tuigan troops should the undead menace make it's way north probably would be a better tactical decision than digging in, having those 2,000+/- Tuigan invariably killed, and being that much weaker should the undead menace make it's way north. If that did happen, he could theoretically call on other tribes in the region to come to his aid, citing tribal alliances, a common enemy, and whatever else, but there's no guarantee that they'd respond- especially after most "independent" tribes left after Yamun died, anyway, and presumably wouldn't be too interested in forming yet another super Tuigan horde so soon afterwards, regardless of the possible threats. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2012 : 21:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-There's also the 3e's Unapproachable East, and 2e's Old Empires, the novel Faces of Deception, and the Blood & Magic video game, of which most canon-relevant information is summed up by BadCatMan in said thread.
While I forgot to mention it above, I have all of the above except Blood & Magic. But I've read BadCatMan's summaries.
I also have Desert of Desolation and naturally the three Hordelands adventures. Dragon #349 and the Web Enhancement. "Through a Glass, Darkly" from Realms of Mystery (I think it was).
Could there be a hint of anything in another product? Anything about Solon or Semphar at all? Any mention, no matter how small, of the Utter East?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Very true. Nothing's better for morale- especially among the Tuigan- than some good ol' violence and conquest. In my own imagining of things, Khazari reestablished their independence through similar methods of guile, guerrilla violence, and alliances with other powers in the region.
Didn't Solon conquer Khazari shortly after the Taangan did, razing most of it?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Perhaps, if Semphar was being belligerent in such a manner, the reason why soldiers were never sent to put them back in line was because, elsewhere across the territories that encompassed the Tuigan kingdom, similar events were already taking place, and Hubadai did not want to stretch his limited forces too thin.
Where else?
He only controls empty steppes. He apparently relinquished all the territory outside of the Great Amber Steppes and thus holds no occupied territory at all. Solon spending its whole strength to reduce Shou Lung removed the only two threats he could conceivably face. Apart, that is, from other Taangan, disappointed and angry over his pacifistic actions.
Hubadai's most important security concern is that he has tens of thousands of willing warriors and no war. This is a grave danger to his rule and him personally.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Perhaps Hubadai, through whatever means, had intelligence about Tan Chin and the undead army that would ravage or was already ravaging Solon, depending on the exact point of time, and decided that, at that point in time, retaining control of the area was not in the kingdom's best interest at that point. Ceding the territory and withdrawing his Tuigan troops should the undead menace make it's way north probably would be a better tactical decision than digging in, having those 2,000+/- Tuigan invariably killed, and being that much weaker should the undead menace make it's way north.
But 2,000 men is an insignificant force in strategic terms for him. His father commanded 300,000. Of those, maybe 100,000 fell in the war.
The men who rode back with him were 30,000. He'd have been able to collect garrisons as well as troops dispatched for other duties. Sure, not everyone would accept his dream of Yaimmunahar, but that doesn't mean that many of them would refuse the chance of looting Semphar again, if the chance were offered.
The 10,000 elite troops who form his personal Yunichaar could probably have conquered defeated Semphar alone. Then there's his personal kashik, inherited from his father. If anyone was loyal, it would be those men. Even if we assume 67% casualties in the Battle of the Golden Way, that still leaves some 3,000 of them. Add to that the Hoeken and a fair bit of the Tuigan, who would be bound by Taangan law to follow him as khan even if he were not accepted as Khahan of all the Taangan.
Hubadai could call on 30,000+ men without ever raising the issue of whether he was his father's legitimate successor as Khahan. And as it turns out, the Naican, Oighur and Commani tribes do accept him, even without the promise of loot and follow him to a destination antithetical to the past culture of the Taangan. These tribes numbered in the tens of thousands before the war (Tuigan, Naican, Oighur and Commani together could send at least 150,000 warriors away for years), so even with 30%+ losses, they'll be formidable.
Hubadai may have lacked political capital when he came back to the steppes. He did certainly not lack warriors. His army might have been only a third of his father's, but it would still have been larger than the total number of men needed to take both Khazari and Semphar while both nations were at full strength before the war.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
If that did happen, he could theoretically call on other tribes in the region to come to his aid, citing tribal alliances, a common enemy, and whatever else, but there's no guarantee that they'd respond- especially after most "independent" tribes left after Yamun died, anyway, and presumably wouldn't be too interested in forming yet another super Tuigan horde so soon afterwards, regardless of the possible threats.
Actually, according to the article in Dragon, most of those who don't support Hubadai are interested in forming another Horde. They merely lack leadership.
If Hubadai would have taken Semphar in 1363 DR, the year he established Yaimmunnahar and after the undead army had crossed into Shou Lung and Tan Chin was destroyed, he'd have provided his new kingdom with immense assets and a stable source of revenue while simultaneously silencing his most vocal critics and being able to reward loyal followers with land and titles. It would have been economically and politically sound.
And I can't see how Semphar would have been able to resist it if 2,000 Tuigan were enough to contain it three years before. Re-building a disbanded military takes time and ready cash. The Tuigan could have left with most of the cash they found and Semphar wouldn't have had any revenues while Tan Chin was burning everything and salting the ground where their main trade routes happened to be.
No, if Semphar is independent and secure, it's because Hubadai wanted it that way, not because he couldn't take it for political or military reasons.
A possibility is that Hubadai has grown into a different man through his experiences. He might have adopted more than building styles and social organisation. Maybe his conversion to the Red Knight includes a sense of honour more in tune with that of Cormyrean knights than Taangan steppe raiders. Maybe he no longer believes that might makes right and anything that you can seize is yours by right. Maybe the worst fears of his political opponents are true and he has truly been corrupted by Western influences and wants to make the Tuigan into 'civilised' men who don't raid their neighbours.
Abu Bakr has rather less honour than sense, but it could be that he accurately read Hubadai and believes that he is sincere in his conversion. That would explain why he feels secure from him. Maybe Hubadai gave his solemn word never to threathen his lands again and even promised to bring his personal troops to fight on the side of Semphar if other tribesmen ever attacked it. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 01:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Solon and Semphar
In 1360, the Semphari city of Solon in the Raurin desert was buried under magma.
According to the trilogy of adventures for the Hordelands, though, not only is there a city of Solon in 1360 DR, but it has been ruled by Ambuchar Devayam since at least 50 years before, since that was the time it warred with Ra-Khati last. And Ambucher Devayam is not subject to the Caliph of Semphar at any point in time.
Were there two cities called Solon, one Semphari founded on the other side of the mountain range and one the ancient ruins of Imaskar ruled by the necromancer lich?
The two references refer to the same city. The volcanic eruption is a result of those adventures IIRC. The "Semphari" statement is more of a geographical designation than a political one. "Raurin" city would probably be more appropriate. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 29 Feb 2012 01:18:53 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 01:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While I forgot to mention it above, I have all of the above except Blood & Magic. But I've read BadCatMan's summaries.
I also have Desert of Desolation and naturally the three Hordelands adventures. Dragon #349 and the Web Enhancement. "Through a Glass, Darkly" from Realms of Mystery (I think it was).
Could there be a hint of anything in another product? Anything about Solon or Semphar at all? Any mention, no matter how small, of the Utter East?
-DRAGON Magazine 163 has "A Hoard For the Horde", which has new monsters for the region. DRAGON Magazine 243 has "Holy Swords of the Realms", which has a weapon forged in the Hordelands. The sword article seemingly would be slightly more useful, but neither would seem to be particularly injected with historical lessons, based on their titles and content. DRAGON Annual #4 has the "Speaking in Tongues" article, but based on the discussion about in in a different thread, I presume you have that- not that it has all that much outside of the language trees.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Didn't Solon conquer Khazari shortly after the Taangan did, razing most of it?
-Looking at my historical timeline of Khazari, the Suren conquered it in 80 DR. Before that, by 150 DR at the latest, the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung had already turned Khazari, along with other local nation-states (including Solon) into vassal states. Nothing else I can find about any other occupations until centuries later with the Tuigan Horde. Kara-Turan history is very disjointed because of the way historical references are thrown around with no rhyme or reason- what source had Khazari being conquered and razed by Solon?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Where else?
He only controls empty steppes. He apparently relinquished all the territory outside of the Great Amber Steppes and thus holds no occupied territory at all. Solon spending its whole strength to reduce Shou Lung removed the only two threats he could conceivably face. Apart, that is, from other Taangan, disappointed and angry over his pacifistic actions.
Hubadai's most important security concern is that he has tens of thousands of willing warriors and no war. This is a grave danger to his rule and him personally.
-In 1,359 DR the Tuigan Horde conquered Khazari, and Jadaran Khahan was installed as governor. Nothing is ever written on Khazari again, but presumably it is incorporated into Yaimmunahar because nothing says it ever becomes independent again. Where did you find mentions of Hubadai relinquishing all of his holdings outside of the steppes themselves? Scanning DRAGON 349, I saw nothing.
-Regardless, there are various other outside nations that have presented threats enough to the fledgling Tuigan kingdom. After the Horde had broken, Tuigan bandits were raiding merchants heading to and from Thesk. This would certainly raise the ire of Thesk, the Zhentarim, and Shou Lung, all of whom could mount offensives against the Tuigan that, at the least, would give Hubadai cause for concern. Break them? Likely not, given the state that Zhentish Thesk and Shou Lung were in at the turn of the decade (1,360 DR). But, give them concern enough to move troops and garrisons around is all we need.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
But 2,000 men is an insignificant force in strategic terms for him. His father commanded 300,000. Of those, maybe 100,000 fell in the war.
The men who rode back with him were 30,000. He'd have been able to collect garrisons as well as troops dispatched for other duties. Sure, not everyone would accept his dream of Yaimmunahar, but that doesn't mean that many of them would refuse the chance of looting Semphar again, if the chance were offered.
The 10,000 elite troops who form his personal Yunichaar could probably have conquered defeated Semphar alone. Then there's his personal kashik, inherited from his father. If anyone was loyal, it would be those men. Even if we assume 67% casualties in the Battle of the Golden Way, that still leaves some 3,000 of them. Add to that the Hoeken and a fair bit of the Tuigan, who would be bound by Taangan law to follow him as khan even if he were not accepted as Khahan of all the Taangan.
Hubadai could call on 30,000+ men without ever raising the issue of whether he was his father's legitimate successor as Khahan. And as it turns out, the Naican, Oighur and Commani tribes do accept him, even without the promise of loot and follow him to a destination antithetical to the past culture of the Taangan. These tribes numbered in the tens of thousands before the war (Tuigan, Naican, Oighur and Commani together could send at least 150,000 warriors away for years), so even with 30%+ losses, they'll be formidable.
Hubadai may have lacked political capital when he came back to the steppes. He did certainly not lack warriors. His army might have been only a third of his father's, but it would still have been larger than the total number of men needed to take both Khazari and Semphar while both nations were at full strength before the war.
Actually, according to the article in Dragon, most of those who don't support Hubadai are interested in forming another Horde. They merely lack leadership.
If Hubadai would have taken Semphar in 1363 DR, the year he established Yaimmunnahar and after the undead army had crossed into Shou Lung and Tan Chin was destroyed, he'd have provided his new kingdom with immense assets and a stable source of revenue while simultaneously silencing his most vocal critics and being able to reward loyal followers with land and titles. It would have been economically and politically sound.
And I can't see how Semphar would have been able to resist it if 2,000 Tuigan were enough to contain it three years before. Re-building a disbanded military takes time and ready cash. The Tuigan could have left with most of the cash they found and Semphar wouldn't have had any revenues while Tan Chin was burning everything and salting the ground where their main trade routes happened to be.
No, if Semphar is independent and secure, it's because Hubadai wanted it that way, not because he couldn't take it for political or military reasons.
A possibility is that Hubadai has grown into a different man through his experiences. He might have adopted more than building styles and social organisation. Maybe his conversion to the Red Knight includes a sense of honour more in tune with that of Cormyrean knights than Taangan steppe raiders. Maybe he no longer believes that might makes right and anything that you can seize is yours by right. Maybe the worst fears of his political opponents are true and he has truly been corrupted by Western influences and wants to make the Tuigan into 'civilised' men who don't raid their neighbours.
Abu Bakr has rather less honour than sense, but it could be that he accurately read Hubadai and believes that he is sincere in his conversion. That would explain why he feels secure from him. Maybe Hubadai gave his solemn word never to threathen his lands again and even promised to bring his personal troops to fight on the side of Semphar if other tribesmen ever attacked it.
-I often forget the sheer scale that the Tuigan Horde had to work with. In that context, 2,000 is indeed a fairly insignificant number. When Tan Chin rose, he had an army of 10,000 zombies. So, if 2,000 soldiers were left behind in 1,360 DR, Tan Chin's undead army of 10,000 in 1,361 DR would have presumably been the superior fighting force, and have slaughtered those soldiers. That raises the question about why they never reoccupied the area, since Tan Chin was eventually defeated by adventurers, and a weakened Solon ripe for the pickings by Hubadai's much larger overall army. With their general aversion to magic, perhaps it was believed that the area was cursed- especially after something as inauspicious as the volcanic eruption in Solon. This would explain why, after the fact, when the undead army was no more, the Tuigan never moved back in to continue occupying the area, and how the Caliph regained control. Your hypothesis regarding the Red Knight, and the impact that her dogma might have on Hubadai, and Yaimmunnahar as a whole, is an interesting hypothesis. The hypothesis about "being civilized" also seems very plausible. Moving back in to reconquer the area could be considered a very bold move, in relation to geopolitics, and perhaps even an act of provocation towards Thesk maybe, making Hubadai hesitant to move.
-At the end of the day, a lot of conjecture and hypothesizes, but ones that are grounded in plausibility. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 29 Feb 2012 01:23:03 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 08:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Looking at my historical timeline of Khazari, the Suren conquered it in 80 DR. Before that, by 150 DR at the latest, the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung had already turned Khazari, along with other local nation-states (including Solon) into vassal states. Nothing else I can find about any other occupations until centuries later with the Tuigan Horde. Kara-Turan history is very disjointed because of the way historical references are thrown around with no rhyme or reason- what source had Khazari being conquered and razed by Solon?
Oooh, what historical timeline of Khazari?
I've been looking for precise dates for some of these events. I think 80 DR is a bit late for the conquest*, but it's in the right neighbourhood.
Oh, and the source I have for the conquest of Khazari is GHotR p. 146. Just a year after the Tuigan conquer it, Ambuchar Devayam and his army from Solon arrive.
*The Horde states that after the conquest, the Suren became disunited again and after that, the Shou Lung defeated them in battle. Since that defeat was in 80 DR, I had thought that it would have taken at least a few years for the political unity that they show at the beginning of their round of conquest to fracture sufficiently for it to be worth mentioning that the empire of the Suren fragmented and the tribes battled among themselves. On the other hand, if a canon source says that the conquest was in 80 DR, then The Horde is evidently refering to the political fragmentation as post-dating the disastrous battle and perhaps resulting from it.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-In 1,359 DR the Tuigan Horde conquered Khazari, and Jadaran Khahan was installed as governor. Nothing is ever written on Khazari again, but presumably it is incorporated into Yaimmunahar because nothing says it ever becomes independent again. Where did you find mentions of Hubadai relinquishing all of his holdings outside of the steppes themselves? Scanning DRAGON 349, I saw nothing.
Well, Yamun Khahan conquered in Shou Lung, Semphar and Khazari. He suffered defeat in Rashemen and the Red Wizards prefered diplomacy after experiencing the skill of Batu Min Ho. In Thesk, he was defeated.
The Tuigan retain no land in Thesk, Rashemen or Thay. In the course of the trilogy of books on their campaigns, they left Shou Lung. Semphar, as noted above, is clearly sovereign once more. And Khazari was conquered by Solon.
It is theoretically possible that Hubadai has reconquered Khazari on the behalf of Yaimmunnahar, but the article in Dragon makes no mention of such conquest and it would be strange indeed for him to conquer poor Khazari and not rich Semphar, when it would seem that Khazari would be the harder nut to crack (terrain is mountainous, not flat).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Regardless, there are various other outside nations that have presented threats enough to the fledgling Tuigan kingdom. After the Horde had broken, Tuigan bandits were raiding merchants heading to and from Thesk. This would certainly raise the ire of Thesk, the Zhentarim, and Shou Lung, all of whom could mount offensives against the Tuigan that, at the least, would give Hubadai cause for concern. Break them? Likely not, given the state that Zhentish Thesk and Shou Lung were in at the turn of the decade (1,360 DR). But, give them concern enough to move troops and garrisons around is all we need.
Shou Lung was involved in a destructive war against Solon, which Solon was winning.
Thesk not only did not have a military of a size to threathen even a minor khan, but they were seperated from the steppes by miles and miles of miles and bloody miles.
No army without the mobility to bring the horsemen to battle poses much threat to the Tuigan. It doesn't really matter if they 'take' hundreds of miles of flooded wasteland. As soon as they are far inside the steppes, raid their supply lines and watch them starve. No, Thesk is no threat, no matter what they do.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I often forget the sheer scale that the Tuigan Horde had to work with. In that context, 2,000 is indeed a fairly insignificant number. When Tan Chin rose, he had an army of 10,000 zombies. So, if 2,000 soldiers were left behind in 1,360 DR, Tan Chin's undead army of 10,000 in 1,361 DR would have presumably been the superior fighting force, and have slaughtered those soldiers.
I'm not saying that the 2,000 men ought to have challenged the army of Solon. But Solon is seperated from Semphar by impassable mountains and desert. And these undead marched further away, into Ra-Khati, Khazari and Shou Lung.
While they remained, no doubt, something a prudent commander would keep in mind, there was no military necessity to flee from them while they were engaged in another war hundreds and even thousands miles of way over some of the hardest terrain on Toril.
Assuming every Tuigan has four horses, as is standard practice, they can outride marching undead. So even if they never meant to fight them, they could have held Semphar until Solon showed any inclination to march on it (which they didn't).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
That raises the question about why they never reoccupied the area, since Tan Chin was eventually defeated by adventurers, and a weakened Solon ripe for the pickings by Hubadai's much larger overall army. With their general aversion to magic, perhaps it was believed that the area was cursed- especially after something as inauspicious as the volcanic eruption in Solon. This would explain why, after the fact, when the undead army was no more, the Tuigan never moved back in to continue occupying the area, and how the Caliph regained control.
I can absolutely understand the Tuigan deciding that Solon and its environs are cursed and to be avoided.
But Semphar is, as noted earlier, seperated from Solon by natural terrain. You can avoid cursed Solon quite effectively by living on the lush banks for the Gbor Nor, far away and with the Howling Gap as an easily defended natural fortress between you.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Your hypothesis regarding the Red Knight, and the impact that her dogma might have on Hubadai, and Yaimmunnahar as a whole, is an interesting hypothesis. The hypothesis about "being civilized" also seems very plausible. Moving back in to reconquer the area could be considered a very bold move, in relation to geopolitics, and perhaps even an act of provocation towards Thesk maybe, making Hubadai hesitant to move.
-At the end of the day, a lot of conjecture and hypothesizes, but ones that are grounded in plausibility.
I'm coming to the conclusion that it has to be a new ideal of honour for Hubadai. He's taking a political risk, not acting in the traditional Tuigan style and in a strategic sense, his moves make no sense.
I think he wants to make the Tuigan into a realm of 'civilised', honourable men whose neighbours respect them instead of fear them. He wants to be a king like Azoun, not a conqueror like his father. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 11:29:28
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The Honour of Hubadai Khahan
The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that Hubadai Khahan is truly committed to change the fabric of Tuigan/Taangan society and that the foundation of his motivation lie not in ambition or realpolitik, but in a newfound sense of honour which differs profoundly from the values he was raised with.
Consider, not only has Yamun Khahan founded a 'civilised' city and encouraged his people to take up acriculture, as well as apparently made no threathening moves toward his neighbours, almost all of whom are vulnerable and ripe for conquest, he has also forbidden all Tuigan warriors from raiding at all.
There is no possible benefit to be gained from forbidding the Tuigan from raiding. It is a foundation of their culture, their economics and even their courtship rituals. In the absence of raiding, young warriors will have no opportunity of gaining wealth, personal advancement or a favourable marriage.
Acriculture could generate a surplus of food, enabling the Khahan to rule more people and for more of his people to pursue other professions, like bureaucrats, wizards, knights, scholars and inventors. From a certain point of view, this increases the power of the Khahan.* By the same token, allowing trade through his lands in exchange for a modest tax will provide a source of revenue and maintaining civil relations with neighbours will increase trade revenue.
On the other hand, none of these benefits are dependent on Hubadai forbidding raiding. They rely on him controlling it, allowing warriors to raid those who do not pay him tribute while ensuring that those who do are safe. Indeed, by not taking Semphar and Khazari, Hubadai all but ensures that the East-West trade will bypass his new lands in favour of the Shou Lung-Khazari-Semphar-Murghom and from thence to the Shining Lands, Mulhorand and Thay.
No, his aversion to raiding as well as his stopping of the slave-taking that the Yunichaar custom requires are not measures that increase his power. They are, instead, insults to Tuigan culture that provide powerful and persuasive talking points for any potential rivals. To take an analogy from psychiatric treatment, if you are trying to help someone through a debilitating heroin addiction, you don't try to get him to stop smoking at the same time. By the same token, if you are trying to get a nomadic people to settle and build a lasting kingdom, you don't ask them to abandon all their other traditional ways at the same time.
What I think is that Hubadai, at the time of the Battle of the Golden Way a relatively young and impressionable man raised to believe that victory in a contest of arms was indicative of nobility of spirit and greatness of soul, came to idolise King Azoun IV, the killer of his father and bane of his army.
If you've seen Gangs of New York, maybe you remember how Bill the Butcher regarded Priest Vallon? He was the only man who defeated him, the man who took his eye and the man Bill would finally kill in the most memorable battle of his career. Every year after that, Bill would celebrate his defeat of Priest Vallon and his Dead Rabbits.
This celebration, however, came more and more to resemble an expression of respect and even love, in memoriam of Priest Vallon. In defeating his greatest enemy, Bill had lost so much of himself that he must have wondered what purpose there was in going on. All men disappointed him because they did not have the strength of character of himself... and of Priest Vallon.
The two men were not alike in all ways. Priest Vallon was a champion of the disenfranchised and Bill fought for a parochial, bigoted cause, that of an older group of immigrants over a newer one. Priest Vallon was loved, Bill was feared. But they were alike in their courage, in their willpower and in their adherence to a code of honour archaic long before their time.
Because Bill defeated Priest Vallon, his cause won out. It seems that Bill never seriously considered changing his ways, perhaps because to do so would have been an admission of defeat. But consider what would have happened if Priest Vallon had won. By the barbaric code of Bill the Butcher, so very like the code of the Tuigan, victory justifies the victor. By the court of swords, his values have been proven superior.
But as Bill the Butcher came to realise as his victory turned to ashes in the long, lonely years afterwards, he was not the kind of man to whom wordly goals matter enough to provide a reason for living. His 'people' were ascendant, his declared goals accomplished. But the kindred spirit of Priest Vallon, the fierce joy he felt in opposing and being opposed by an enemy worthy of his steel, were things that mattered infinitely more to him.
Even though Bill recognised in himself cruelty and callousness that Priest Vallon abhorred, he still sincerely admired the honour of his defeated enemy. Perhaps he even wished that things might have turned out differently, that he would have had a chance to become a man that Priest Vallon could have honestly admired in return.
Hubadai Khahan had the choice of admitting defeat or trying to falsify history. Neither he nor his father were ever deceitful or cowardly, so he did not choose to live in the fiction that he had retreated by choice.
Nor did he attempt to justify the defeat of the Tuigan by claiming that the Allegiance fought dishonounarably. He recognised that their pikemen, their archers, their knights and their wizards were all warriors in the Tuigan sense and they shared the risks of battle, despite using methods and weapons that were unfamiliar to the Tuigan. Hubadai accepted that a numerically inferior force of Faerunians had defeated his father's best efforts and the hardened army of the Tuigan Horde, and they had done this in honourable battle.
Yamun Khahan was everything that the Taangan people considered admirable. He was fierce, courageous, strong-willed, self-assured and skilled in battle. But he was probably not a doting parent or someone that his sons knew as a man, instead of a conqueror. I imagine that Hubadai found in the legend of Azoun IV, a king truly beloved of his people, something which he never knew he had been missing. He travelled to Cormyr, learned about its culture and, most of all, learned about King Azoun IV and the Obarskyrs. He named his capital in honour of this land and tries to emulate their ways.
In Hubadai's mind, the qualities of his illustrious father have been combined with the character of King Azoun IV. In a sense, he has two fathers, the one who sired him and whom he tried to emulate in his younger days and the father of his adulthood, his hero and idol. In a sense, I imagine that his grief when King Azoun IV died was greater than when his first father was killed. Yet the manner of Azoun's death must have intensified Hubadai's attachment to his legend. He died covered in even more glory than he lived, winning his last victory and defending his people.
The way I see it, Hubadai makes his decisions by, consciously or subconsciously, wondering what Azoun would do. He is, I believe, not fully aware of the Western King having supplanted Yamun Khahan so completely, but instead attributes to his biological father many of the qualities of honourable knighthood that he sees in Azoun, even when this is not strictly accurate. Memories are fickle things and it is easy to interpret distant memories in a new light.
Hubadai has come to see rulership not as a reward to be won, but as a duty to his people. His sense of self is now bound up not in his ferocity and ability to inspire terror, but in serving his people. He is autocratic and high-handed, yes, but he truly sees himself as the defender of the Tuigan and as the man to lead them into a new era of nobility and honour.
In many ways, Yamun Khahan had in his personality aspects that make his son's conversion, in retrospect, less surprising. Yamun could be generous and he was not cruel. He enjoyed killing his enemies and thus demonstrating that he was the better man, but he took no joy in tormenting the weak and the defeated. He took what others were not strong enough to hold, because it was the moral code he was raised with, but who can tell what he would have grown into in other circumstances?
Hubadai is still a hard man and a determined one. He has a deep conviction that his way is the right way and in achieving his goals, he is not encumbered with mercy or hesitation. But while he and his real father are alike in never questioning the rigid codes that they live by (in D&D terms, LN), the substance of those codes differs. Yamun Khahan's code was that of the barbarian conqueror. Hubadai Khahan's code is that of the his erstwhile enemy, the King whose worth lies in what he does for his people, not what his people to for him.
In many ways, this demonstrates the limits of the alignment system of D&D. An essentially uncaring servant of an unfair and tyranical regime might be LN. So might a particularly stern servant of the code of Tyr or Helm. And a barbarian conqueror like Yamun Khahan. Or someone who would sacrifice anything, himself most of all, to defend the weak and serve the people, whether they realise that they are being served or not (Khelben Arunsun, Vangerdahast and, in my theory, Hubadai Khahan). The label of 'LN' does little to inform the DM what the character will be like in play, predict whether he'll oppose the PCs or help them or even distinguish a despicable moral coward from a courageous and honourable hero.
The Future of Taangan
I see a lot of adventuring potential in this. If Hubadai is essentially a noble and admirable man who truly desires peace on the steppes, he faces a lot of opposition and challenges. If I accept the above as explanation for his lack of aggressive moves in the time since the Battle of the Golden Way, it makes sense to assume that the reason Caliph Abu Bakr feels more afraid of the armies of Skuld than the hordes of tribesmen on the steppes who so recently conquered his land is that Hubadai Khahan has given him his word of honour that if any of the tribes attack Semphar, he himself, with the army of Yaimmunnahar, will arrive to defend it with the Semphari.
The realm of Yaimmunnahar is said to have '100,000 people'. Well, actually, the steppes are said to have a 100,000 Tuigan, in the Dragon Magazine article. In light of the 2e numbers of ca 300,000 warriors under Yamun Khahan, I find this somewhat strange. For a people to be able to field 300,000 warriors, in the normal course of events, it implies a population of mothers and children enough to ensure at least a nominal rate of reproduction.
Even if we assume that women are only as many as the men, that there are very few old, sick or crippled people (neither warriors, children or fertile women) who are allowed to remain alive and that women do not outnumber the men, we are still left with a population of about a million people. If the endemic warfare of Taangan life is anything to go by, however, women probably substantially outnumber the men, with many widows or unmarried women and/or noyans habitually taking more than one wife or informally keeping concubines. I'd find 300,000 warriors corresponding to a total population of 1,500,000 more plausible (this is still a society with a degree of militarisation almost unmatched in history).
Not to mention that for Yaimmunnahar in specific, a realm controlling only a part of 100,000 people cannot have a military of the size implied in the Dragon article. If only one elite section numbers 10,000 and the surviving warriors of the Tuigan, Naican, Commani and Oighur follow Hubadai Khahan, this suggests that the total number of warriors is well over 30,000, at the very least. Indeed, unless these tribes have been reduced to total insignifance by some other catastrophe than the campaigns of Yamun Khahan, they are likely to be able to field a 100,000 or more men.
But going only from the minimum of 30,000 warriors, the number of 100,000 must refer to something other than the total number of the Tuigan. After all, only about 1/3 of the warriors of the steppes chose to follow Hubadai Khahan. Surely not every person in Yaimmunnahar is a warrior. If they are, it will not be a long-lasting kingdom, with no mothers or children.
I'll take the '100,000' to refer to the number of warriors under Hubadai Khahan. I might read it as the number of people in Yaimmunnahar instead, but that would imply either that only 7-10% of the Taangan live in Yaimmunnahar (meaning that it would quickly fall) or that some grand catastrophe had taken place on the steppes which killed off 4/5 of the people there. And that's a bit steep for something which isn't even mentioned in any canon source.
No, I'll believe that around half of the people of the steppes live under Hubadai Khahan. This includes all the minor tribes who would otherwise be prey to stronger and more numerous ones and those left orphaned or without means of support by the wars, all of whom seek relief from Hubadai Khahan without contributing (as yet) much to his power base. In other words, those that other tribes would have cast out to die on the steppes have found refuge in Yaimmunnahar, largely because unlike the herds, it doesn't move around. Also, in my view, because Hubadai tries to feed them and to provide them with new opportunities.
In the 13 years from the end of the war to 1373 DR, the date of my campaign, everyone in the age cohort born by the time Yamun Khahan began his campaign of conquests has grown up. The boys are old enough to be warriors or at least to ride with them to battle and take care of the remounts, taking their place in the ordus when older men fall. The girls are old enough to marry, to have children of their own and, for those born on Yaimmunnahar, to take up careers in the new fields Hubadai is introducing.
But whereas Hubadai is trying to teach his boys and girls to be farmers, labourers, administrators, scholars, wizards and a host of other things; the tribes who reject his 'civilised' ways live in the ancient ways of the Taangan. Every boy of their cohorts becomes a warrior.
Hubadai's realm has begun acriculture and the building of infrastructure. The cost, however, is that he is barely managing to replace those of his veteran warriors who retire, die or settle down into farming with the best of the young boys. His army still numbers an impressive 100,000, but it is not growing very fast.
The 100,000+ warriors who rejected Yaimmunnahar have been joined by 200,000+ new warriors, untried and untested, but eager to earn their way in the world in the ancient way of the Taangan. Some of the veterans are old and grey, but none of them have settled to the plow or quill. While the numbers of people are about equal, in the numbers of warriors, the 'wild' tribes already have a substantial advantage and because so many of Yaimmunnhar's people are needed for other tasks than the way of horse, bow and lance, this advantage will keep growing.
Yet no rival for Hubadai's preeminence has his stature or his clarity of vision. Some want to take advantage of the weakness of Shou Lung and raid its northern provinces as in the days of old. Others want to retake Khazari and to snatch again the plum of Semphar. Others, no doubt, want to raze Yaimmunnhar and set Hubadai Khahan's head on a spike.
I imagine that few are fools enough to want to try their strength again to the west, largely because the lands of Rashemen and upland Thay are harsh and relatively poor** and they are defended out of all proportion to their wealth. Thesk, meanwhile, is a barren wilderness no more valuable than their own millions of square miles of steppes, with no wealth until they reach the coasts. And on the coasts, even without any opposition, they would end their invasion, because they have no navy.
Hubadai Khahan still controls by far the largest single group of warriors on the steppes and his army is well-organised and under the command of veteran generals. No one is strong enough to challenge him, yet. But nor does Hubadai have any realistic way to prevent the eastern and northern tribes from raiding into Shou Lung as that land reels from Solon's invasion. Soon enough, his lack of response to those raids will tempt the strongest among them to want to retake Khazari and Semphar. As any tribes but the Dalats*** would have to cross his lands to do so, that would be a declaration of war, the Tuigan confederation with the Naican, Commani and Oighur against whichever of the Khassidi, Zamogedi, Fankiung or the Quirish first dare.
The Zamogedi and Quirish are ancient allies and kin. They will likely act in concert. If they could put aside their differences with the Fankiung, the joint armies would outnumber Yaimmunnahar 's military handily and Yaimmunnar would still have to defend its fixed borders from any of the tribes who had not yet declared.
Yaimmunnahar might find that the noble experiment of Hubadai Khahan could not survive. Not, that is, without the 'civilised' nations he wishes to join realising their choice between a strong and honourable neighbour under Hubadai Khahan or the possibility of a new conqueror arising from among the victorious tribes, one perhaps entirely without even the rough and bloody nobility of Yamun Khahan. What fun it could be for PCs to try to arrange for a new Crusade, this time to fight on the side of the son of the man the last one was directed against!
*Though Hubadai will be extremely disappointed when he finds out that the incredible quality of the steppefolk as light cavalry and horse archers is not an inborn gift, but the result of their way of life demanding that by the time they reach adulthood, they will have spent years in the saddle. Because there are only so many hours in the day, a man who makes his living from farming a plot of land instead of herding animals a horse, will discover that instead of cavalry skills resulting from his daily chores, they will have to be learned in his spare time. Historically, the only people who were able to learn all the skill-set required to make a mounted archer were either mounted herdsmen or professional warriors who did nothing but train and fight. Farmers who are part-time warriors never had enough time to learn to fight in that way.
**Thay's wealth is concentrated in cities, far indeed from any viable invasion route from the east.
***Given their traditional opposition to the tribes that now make up Hubadai Khahan's supporters as well as their position as the nearest tribe to the treathened lands of Khazari and Semphar, I'm guessing that in order for there to be peace on Yaimmunnahar's borders, this tribe must be so reduced in power as to constitute merely an irritant, not a genuine threat of conquest. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2012 : 21:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Looking at my historical timeline of Khazari, the Suren conquered it in 80 DR. Before that, by 150 DR at the latest, the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung had already turned Khazari, along with other local nation-states (including Solon) into vassal states. Nothing else I can find about any other occupations until centuries later with the Tuigan Horde. Kara-Turan history is very disjointed because of the way historical references are thrown around with no rhyme or reason- what source had Khazari being conquered and razed by Solon?
Oooh, what historical timeline of Khazari?
 I second this question... and request, of course.  In fact, anything you have or can direct me towards in the way of timelines for lands east of the Dragonsword Mountains and Sunrise Mountains is welcome. I know Markustay had a lot of collected historical material on Kara-Tur, but I also know that if it isn't on the Internet somewhere, it's gone now. 
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Your hypothesis regarding the Red Knight, and the impact that her dogma might have on Hubadai, and Yaimmunnahar as a whole, is an interesting hypothesis. The hypothesis about "being civilized" also seems very plausible. Moving back in to reconquer the area could be considered a very bold move, in relation to geopolitics, and perhaps even an act of provocation towards Thesk maybe, making Hubadai hesitant to move.
-At the end of the day, a lot of conjecture and hypothesizes, but ones that are grounded in plausibility.
I'm coming to the conclusion that it has to be a new ideal of honour for Hubadai. He's taking a political risk, not acting in the traditional Tuigan style and in a strategic sense, his moves make no sense.
I think he wants to make the Tuigan into a realm of 'civilised', honourable men whose neighbours respect them instead of fear them. He wants to be a king like Azoun, not a conqueror like his father.
I like this theory, and it fits with what little I know (off the top of my head) of the Tuigan culture; learn from your defeats, and if an enemy has some lessons to teach, learn them well, because having to learn them more than once is expensive. (Or something along those lines; I'm processing lore through a massive sinus headache right now, and I still don't have my K-T, Hordelands, or anything else pre-3E anywhere near me apart from a couple of 1E PDFs bought or downloaded from wizards.com before they were pulled off the Net.) |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 04:48:31
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I had a long post here listing 5 other relevant sources, including one with a decent amount of Solon lore.
However, I have decided that you should experience the sheer joy of 3 years of research like I had done.
Good Hunting.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 05:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had a long post here listing 5 other relevant sources, including one with a decent amount of Solon lore.
However, I have decided that you should experience the sheer joy of 3 years of research like I had done.
Good Hunting.
One of the primary uses for the invention of language and then later, that of writing, is that later scholars may build upon the work of those who precede them.
It has contributed to the vast increase in the sum of human knowledge over the past 50,000 years, transforming us from clever apes into people (hopefully) capable of adapting our environs to us rather than continually race to adapt to them or perish.
It can also contribute to a greater understanding of Realmslore and stimulate interesting discussion thereof. Share your sources, please, along with any interpretation that you have of their material.
I have Mahasatra and Malatra campaign settings and while both are useful for the undetailed southern portion of Kara-Tur, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is any direct lore in them transferable to Solon.
The trilogy of adventures set in the Hordelands; Storm Rider, Black Courser and Blood Charge do contain a lot of Solon lore, as such things go, but have already been mentioned in this thread.
Frankly, I can't think where else to find any lore, unless, by some happy accident, some Dragon Magazine article with an opaque title includes something. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 17:22:51
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-It's just a timeline that I wrote that collected dates and mentions from other sources.
-Also, I am not fully sure if it does, but I vaguely recall Weapons of Legacy having a weapon relevant to the Hordelands, related to Tan Chin. If you have that book, thumb through it to verify or not. If you don't, let me know, and I can go dig it out. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2012 : 18:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It's just a timeline that I wrote that collected dates and mentions from other sources.
Ah.
Can I see it? Unless it's huge, you could just copy-paste it as a post in this scroll, but if not, can you e-mail it to me or post a link to an online hosting of it?
Unless the dating of the conquest of Khazari by the Suren is supported by other evidence than the text in The Horde, I'll continue to prefer a slightly earlier date, with 80 DR marking their defeat inside Shou Lung after a pause to their rapid conquest of several years, apparently caused either by dynastic struggles or a leadership challenge.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Also, I am not fully sure if it does, but I vaguely recall Weapons of Legacy having a weapon relevant to the Hordelands, related to Tan Chin. If you have that book, thumb through it to verify or not. If you don't, let me know, and I can go dig it out.
A tedious search turned up nothing but generic D&D lore, mostly aimed at the default setting.
I think that the odds are good that the Stone Scepter of Shih might indeed have been written up for 3.x. If so, though, I don't know where.
Would love to get my hands on anything that mentions the mysterious Once and Future Emperor of the Jade Throne, Raja of Solon and the Kodeshirakta, Supreme Potentate of the True Imaskar Empire. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 02:55:01
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-Sure; It's in the form of a narrative. I had a timeline at one point, but I don't know where it is anymore. Either I erased it when I finished the narrative, or it's saved in a different MS Word file that isn't the three other Kara-Tur/Hordelands nations that I did the same for. In a way, that is more poetic, given that the Khazari people themselves are storytellers.
-Any gaps you notice have more information in canon than presented, feel free to fill them in; I used AGHotR, the Hordelands and Kara-Tur Campaign Setting books, the Hordelands related adventures, Horselords, and the mentioned Utter East discussion thread as my sources, but as you yourself know, bits of information can be found in places you don't necessarily expect
quote:
Khazari valleys history dates back nearly two thousand years ago. During the very beginning of the Li Dynasty of Shou Lung, warriors and magicians loyal to the former emperor, the deceased Emperor Nung Fu, left the powerful nation for points west. These explorers, starting in -1,029 DR upon the emperor's death, began seizing control of the land from the Koryaz Mountains to the Rusj River, including the mountains of Khazari. The Kalmyk people, who arose from the Hagga Shan Mountains, would wage war on the expanding Shou, eventually driving them from the area and back into the Chukei Plateau. Sensing the weakness of Shou Lung, the people of the Khazari Valley declared their independence and right to self-determination, formally creating the nation of Khazari. For hundreds of years, the rulers of Shou Lung had more important matters to attend to, discuss and solve than minor Khazari declaring her independence from Shou Lung, and gaining sovereignty over the Khazari Valley and the northern Katakoro Shan Mountains.
Khazari would not stay independent forever, however. In 225 DR, the first Emperor Chin of the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung came to power. By 150 DR, Shou Lung had defeated the Copper Demon of Tros, which had been a thorn in their side, and had turned the nations of Khazari, Solon, Semphar into vassal states. These nations continued having leaders that were locally elected, and continued to make and enforce their own laws, but they needed to regularly send the emperor of Shou Lung tribute.
In 80 DR, the Suren would conquer much of the Hordelands, including Khazari and Ra-Khati. Shou Lung, having decided that sending resources to free Khazari and Ra-Khati would not be worth it, allowed both nations to be seized. The Suren would not hold Khazari for very long, however, as their own internal bickering caused both Khazari and Ra-Khati to free themselves, and once again establish themselves as independent nations.
The people of Khazari would ensure their independence by investing heavily in the trade road that had begun to pass through their nation. This would pay off, as the Silk Road would soon become Khazaris main source of income.
In 1,359 DR, Yamun Khahan led his vast army east, where he conquered both Khazari and Semphar, before being stalled at the Dragonwall of Shou Lung. The Battle of Manass was the pivotal battle in the Tuigan conquering Khazari. Prince Ogandi, having seen what the Tuigan were capable of, surrendered, to avoid any more needless bloodshed of his people. Jadaran Khahan, one of the sons of Yamun Khahan, was installed as the governor of Khazari. When Yamun Khahan died in 1,360 DR, the control that the Tuigan had over Khazari began to wane, as Yamun was the glue that kept the Tuigan together, despite their many varying tribal alliances, feuds, and interests.
In 1,361 DR, the Demilich Tan Chin led an invasion of Khazari from his center of operations in Solon. By the end of the year, Tan Chin had successfully conquered Khazari with his army of Undead. The Tuigan ruling over Khazari fought to defend the valley nation, as did the natives, but both were defeated by the Lich and his thousands of undead. Tan Chin would be killed in 1,362 DR, however, in the catacombs beneath Skarou, slain by the mystical Stone Scepter of Shih. Because the Khazari had learned their lesson from the invasion of the Tuigan, they did not wall themselves in their cities to defend themselves from the undead menace. Instead, they employed a variety of tactics, including guerrilla warfare, falling into the Katakoro Shan Mountains.
After Tan Chin and his army was defeated, the Tuigan were slow to return to lording over Khazari. Yaļmmunahar, the Tuigan kingdom, did not send enough soldiers to ensure their control of Khazari, despite their insistence that the territory did indeed belong to the Tuigan. Prince Ogandi, quickly declared Khazaris independence once more, in 1,364 DR, when he was convinced that the Tuigan neither had the political will or the desire to commit troops to control Khazari, especially in the aftermath of Tan Chin's destabilizing march across the Hordelands, and the geopolitical consequences that founding Yaļmmunahar would have on the Tuigan themselves, as well as the region. He has restored much of the countrys government to what it was before the Tuigan invasion almost fifteen years before, being quick to reward his religious benefactors and political friends, much to the dismay of many of his countrymen.*
*My own addition. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 12:57:09
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You'll be glad to know that I too postulate Khazari as independent under Prince Ogandi.
On the other hand, I've embroidered the event a bit. You see, 'Prince' Jadaran didn't use that specific title by accident. It is not a native Taangan/Tuigan term, though they may use it (as a loanword from Khazari) when talking between different tribes.
The Khan and the Prince
One of Yamun Khahan's wives* had the blood of the royal house of Khazari. Through her, 'Prince' Jadaran asserted his claim to rule that land. The claim was nonsense, of course, being based on a descent through a young female child of a non-ruling brother to Prince Ogandi's father and 'Prince' Jadaran neither spoke Khazari nor knew anything of his 'native' land. On the other hand, he seems to have regarded his stewardship of the land as a matter of honour, after his father vested him with it.
When the undead horde of Solon attacked the land, 'Prince' Jadaran sent for aid from the Tuigan, but the armies of Yamun Khahan were scattered and lost, the western garrisons still unsure of the succession and without a strong leader took months to organise an ordu to send and the eastern parts under Tömke sent no help at all. The 'Prince' also called on the nobles of Khazari to bring their men and fight under his banner. He gave dispositions that previous (all-but-unenforcable for anyone who desired to circumvent them) limitations on the forces of each noble were suspended.
Prince Ogandi brought not only his royal guard and what few 'national' forces Khazari has, but also a militia of irregular volunteers from monasteries and mountain tribesmen. Perhaps a third of the nobles in the land joined him, with the rest sending various excuses for the time their mobilisation was taking or simply claiming that after the invasion, their poverty did not allow the keeping of warriors.
In total, five thousand Tuigan** were joined with five thousand regulars of Khazari and the royal guard, 20,000 knights and their support and retainers, as well as almost five thousand 'wild men' of the hills and three thousand monks and holy warriors. Regulars of the Khazari defended the border fortresses, joined by retinue archers, dismounted men-at-arms and detachments of the monastery forces.
The cavalry was divided into several quick response forces, in order to relieve any siege and smash the invading force. Three were composed of Khazari knights, each under a high lord of that land. One was the mighty hammer of 'Prince' Jadaran Khan himself, that he would lead to trample any foe into the dust.
Prince Ogandi himself led the royal guards at Alashan, infantry and cavalry both. With their addition to the garrison, the great fortress was packed to capacity, but no long siege would be necessary, as the massed knights and steppe warriors would trample the enemy army long before it could invest the strongpoint.
The wily warriors of the mountain tribes, in truth as much bandits as they were militia, covered every footpath in the Katakoro Shan so that they might spy any enemy from afar so that none might surprise the forces of Khazari. And nor did the Solonese hordes arrive undetected. But surprise them it did.
The main body of the army, marching in perfect step, was row after row of scale-clad warriors with colourful cloth headdresses, contingents among them armed variously with steel bows and long, clumsy-looking doubled-edged broadswords of impossible heft, thigh-long petrified bamboo shields, spears and gauntlet-swords of fearsome aspect or maces, battle-axes and triangular punching-daggers. To their rear ambled great elephants in single file, more than fifty of them, with howdahs filled with mailed archers while at the head of the army rode a host of scale-cuirassed and mailed riders on great stallions caparisoned with mail of their own, girded with their heavy broadswords, their maces and their glittering lances.
Yet it was not the richness of the battle-dress or evident discipline and perfect organisation of the foe which checked the defenders of Khazari. Nor was it even that they had managed to bring elephants and heavy cavalry up paths that light horses struggled to walk. And the numbers, while formidable, were less than half of the warriors that Khazari could whelm.***
No, it was the fact that every man and animal moved with the characteristic single-minded purpose of those whose living distractions have left them behind, sunken eyes glowed with evil light, the visible flesh of the great horses and immense elephants was dried and mummified by frost and the bones of men visible through their martial attire.
Between the disciplined body of the main force and the uncanny ranks of unliving cavalry there marched a ragged group of figures emitting the unmistakable stench of fresher rotting flesh. These were armed with a variety of weapons and loped, staggered or dragged themselves instead of marching in step, but then, they were not the shades of soldiers, they were once peaceful people of Ra-Khati, distant kin and co-religionists to the Khazari.
Broad ogreish figures almost twice as tall as a man, some with horns, some with grotesque faces and others with gleaming skin of unnatural hues, served as the officers of this dark horde, joined by every manner of legendary beast and demon the Khazari tribesmen could think to describe.
The early warning of the tribesmen allowed 'Prince' Jadaran to take up position near Alashan before the enemy host reached the natural camping site on the Silk Road some miles off the fortifications. It was already evening and he expected to see the enemy halt and light fires for the night and was planning next day's battle. But 'Prince' Jadaran, for all his experience in warfare and his gift for command, did not understand the nature of his foe.
Neither halting nor slowing for the night, the undead horde kept marching forward as nightfall gathered them in her dark embrace. Before they were even in range of the most-powerful of Chuangzi Nu bolt-launchers, it was as if the darkness around them came alive. Blood-curdling screams and otherwordly whispers echoed through the pass. A storm of darkness and shapeless horror descended upon the ramparts of the furthest tower of Alashan.
As the Solonese got closer, their archers started nocking and loosing in a rhythm as inexorable as their march. For every ten paces, they would loose one shaft, and the darkness did not prevent their burning red eyes from finding their marks with unerring precision. This caused the other infantry to outpace the archers, but no files collided, no ranks lost their cohesion. The archers slowed and the spearmen slowed with them, but those armed for the shock of close contact continued on toward the walls. Limping and loping ahead of them were the damned of Ra-Khati led by terrible oni.
The ghastly shock cavalry and the massive undead elephants moved to occupy the highest part of level ground in their side of the narrow vale, from where they were in a position to counter any charge down the sloping ground from whence the Khazari must come if they meant to relieve their fortress city.
The archers of Alashan now rained shafts of fire on their foes and threw burning carcasses of tow and incendiaries down from their walls to light up the darkness. 'Prince' Jadaran was aghast that his pleasant contemplation of overwhelming advantage in a mid-morning battle would not come to pass, but he fatalistically accepted his situation and revised his plan. Let the Solonese reach the walls, start enveloping them in any attempt to find a way up or through, and then flow through the heavier, but less nimble and numerous cavalry of the enemy to charge the infantry from the rear. A risk, but one he felt justified in taking once Angbang Idemalla could support him.
Break the enemy momentum and even tireless troops must need to regroup and reposition, if only for their commander to come up with a new plan. In the morning, the Manass cavalry column under young Yaramban Srong al-Mulk would arrive after riding hard overland through the harsh lands the west of the Katakoro Shan and that would place the Solonese between his forces, trapped in the narrow vale.
The Khan Who Would be Prince saw in his mind how the great walls of Alashan must serve to spread them out enough so that he might inflict great slaughter on them and in the morning, how he would destroy them all under the approving gaze and protective might of Teylas of the Sky and Thunder.
Through the flickering fires under the walls of Alashan, he could see that the disciplined ranks of the armoured infantry shock troops had halted just short of the walls. On the flanks, the archer took up position and continued their lethal rain and the spearmen made up the rear of their formation. In front of these automaton soldiers, the ragged mass of the forsaken advanced without pause or thought, joined by the more purposeful strides of the powerful oni. From so far away, Jadaran Khan could not see what happened next, but those who survived Alashan shall remember it until the day of their deaths.
The very wall where some of them stood flickered, pulsated and underwent some strange process. While it was as gray and massive as before, the soldiers who stood on it swore that they felt it move, but not as if the earth shaked, but as if the wall itself drew a breath of air. Where it had been hard and unyielding, it was now somehow slightly soft and warm, as the great flank of the elephant is to the touch. Yet it drew no more than this one amazing breath, for that deep rumble of life slowly became a forlorn sigh and then a wet, horrible death rattle. The wall sagged and then it began to rot, as if days and weeks were passing for every heartbeat.
While what had been the wall stretching from one tower to the next in front of the Solonese oozed pus and slowly sagged, the oni started hacking into it with their long swordstaves. Behind them came the forsaken Ra-Khati, but not to hack or stab, but to tear gibbets of flesh to consume.
Brave Khazari archers shook off their horror as their Prince Ogandi himself ascended a tower to exhort them with a shout of "Zanda! Zanda Khazari!" and they filled the sky with arrows, but human eyes could hardly discern the difference between shadows, flame and ragged shapes. Even those shafts that found their targets caused them no pain, no bleeding nor shock. While the spark of life is fragile, the human body is surprisingly resilient.
The moment for Jadadan Khan's charge was not yet ripe. The Solonese still formed a block, not the spread-out line he had hoped for. Yet if they managed to breach the walls, how would the defenders of Alashan fare against an equal number of foes with such discipline, martial raiments and fearsome demons in their ranks? Not well, Jadaran Khan suspected. Courage was no substitute for dark powers and demonic strength.
The Khan's mind was made up when he saw the Elder Shan Lung banner of Angbang Idumalla finally appear to his rear. Sending a rider to give directions to his Khazari knights, the Khan formed his ordu into battle array. They charged in silence, bows held high and no trace of fear on their stern sun-bronzed visages.
The undead cavalry did not number more than one for every five of the Khan's own men and the Dalat understood the need to harass them with arrows, but avoid clashes with them in the process of flowing through their ranks and reaching the infantry. Yet there more empty saddles among his force and tumbled horses left behind when Jadaran Khan had ridden through them than he ever lost in taking Khazari with his great father. In minutes, one in four of his men had been wounded or slain and the cavalry of the enemy was reforming in his rear, apparently none the worse for the encounter.
But the sacrifice had bought him the tactical position he sought, the opportunity to charge the main force of the Solonese. He could take them in the rear and on the flanks, a dream position for cavalry. He might wish their formation was less dense and that their spearmen did not make up the ranks closest to his ordu, but only a fool plans only for incompetent enemies.
The heirs to the Western myrmidar tradition immortalised by Strategor Matick at Humaithira in the lands of Lost Netheril, men such as the elite of the Zhentilar legions and the finest of Chessentan mercenaries like to claim that as long as disciplined infantry stand their ground, no cavalry in the world can break a strong formation of spearmen.
Yet all men must know that for an empty boast. What kind of man could stand his ground when his world has shrunk down to him and the man on either side of him and bearing down on them are thousands of thundering hooves, tons of horse and man and leather and iron and burnished steel? Only a man who dreamt of death, who lived with it as his boon companion, could stand his ground then. No, infantry always broke when the cavalry charged, as long as the cavalry commander chose his moment right. And Jadaran Khan knew himself to be as astute as any man living when choosing that moment.
There are those, even among those who have faced them in battle, who say that the nomads of the steppes may be fierce warriors, but they are ignorant of military drill. Such a one should have been privileged to witness from the celestial abode of Teylas the Sky the intricate maneuvering of the horselords that day. For what is the daily existence of herding the sheep and the horses, hunting the antilope or the wolf, but a constant exercise in the drill of maintaining distance and direction, relation and speeed? Not only their work, but their play in the form of raiding and the kökböru game of capturing the goat's carcass was a constant training for equine drill.
The nomads might not respond all at once to some mystical command of an unseen master, but the wheeling maneuvres of their minghan and jaguns, merging and splitting while dancing around the formation of their enemies and raining their arrows on them, was nevertheless guided by the will of Jadaran Khan and always the central mass of the ordu was poised to rip through any opening created by the close-range barrage of nomad arrows. While the first ranks of the Ra-Khati forsaken started to push their way through the putrid remains of the Alashan wall, Jadaran Khan awaited his moment.
The Solonese outnumbered the steppe warriors, but the number of archers on each side was about equal. The invaders were forced to abandon their suppression of the towers of Alashan to turn their steel bows on the threat to their rear. While the scale-clad archers were skilled, the unpredictable maneuvering of the nomads threw off their aim. As Khazari archers on the ramparts suddenly had uninterrupted freedom for their shots and could be joined by militia throwing rocks, the fell ranks of the invading army took a battering.
Solonese scale armour could stop most arrows, but the warriors of Jadaran Khan were no ordinary bowmen. His men were the cream of the Dalat ordu, trained to riding by the rocky ground of their homeland, where missteps are fatal, to the bow by the red sheep of the highest ledges, and formed to war by their beloved Khan, a warrior legend since his sixteenth year, now more than ten years in the past, the finest archer and rider on all the steppes. The arrows of the ordu sought and found unarmoured gaps with astonishing regularity; the face, the neck, the arms, the legs, the hinges of cuirass and thigh plate, the side gap of cuirass.
Yet wounds that would drop even the strongest man caused these creatures no distress. Archers would ply their bow with arrows sticking out of their abdomen and face and even more eerily, the spearmen would maintain their pose of absolute stillness with long arrows jutting from their bodies, their very indifference somehow conveying malevolence. Some of the cadaverous warriors of Solon did fall, overwhelmed with arrows, but it usually took five or more arrows to accompish this feat.
Worst of all, their formation did not stagger when one of them was brought down and the inhuman ranks did not waver or start to retreat. No apprehension of pain or loss impinged on their automaton obedience nor did outraged self-preservation instinct drive them to seek shelter or escape. Even with the difficulty of bringing one down, Jaradan Khan's men were having the best of the exchange, but not without cost and in the meantime, the elephants and cavalry of Solon had reformed and started advancing toward their position.
The gangrel creatures that were all that remained of Ra-Khati citizens had consumed most of the rotting wall section and now flooded into the fortress city. Behind them advanced the heavy shock infantry and many oni, but even if Solon left merely the archers and spearmen outside, they would still match and even outnumber the Dalat ordu and the dark soldiers showed no sign of losing their cohesiveness or revealing any weakness in their ranks.
His sharp eyes scanning for the banner of Angbang Idumalla, if not in desperation, at least in eager anticipation, Jadaran Khan finally saw the tardy Khazari making their way over the roughest terrain nearest the fortress, half leading, half riding their horses. Not the route he would have chosen, but enough to draw off the attention of the enemy cavalry. If the Khazari were caught by heavier cavalry without room to maneuever, it would be unfortunate, but it might also teach Angbang Idumalla to to pay more attention to the operational plan of his sworn Prince, who also happened to be infinitely his superior in the field of cavalry tactics.
Jadarat Khan had an opportunity to abandon his plan then, to leave Alashan to its fate, turn on the cavalry and elephants and, outnumbering them 8 to 1 when joined with the Angbang Idumella's Khazari knights, inflict upon them a terrible defeat. The loss of Alashan and its garrison would be serious, but survivable, and in order to truly take Khazari, the undead troops of Solon must again march from its ramparts and into the sloping hills and valleys of central Khazari.
The trade of 10,000 Khazari footsloggers for the whole cavalry of Solon might even work out in Jadarat Khan's favour on that battlefield, as he'd be able to mass all his available cavalry, including, perhaps, Tuigan reinforcements, against a solely infantry force on level ground. Yet Jadarat Khan knew that war is not a matter only of battles, fresh horses, arrows, charqui and powdered kumiss. He might be 'Prince' Jadarat by conquest and oath, but within the walls of Alashan was Prince Ogandi, of the royal house of Khazari by sacred blood and spiritual tradition. Would the Khazari fight for the man who left him to die, or worse, be captured by the invader?
There was also the matter of infantry that no cavalry could break. Imperpetuable, uncaring, mechanical. Invincible infantry. Such a thing was impossible. Couldn't be. Mustn't be. What worth is the khanate of a fierce ordu, the blood-oath of andas whose honour is steel and whose courage is fire, or even the ultimate accolade of a place in firetales so central no name taboo could erase it while the amber grass grew, if these must be enjoyed in a world where the finest horselords of Dalat ordu could not break a formation of infantry in equal battle?
Jadarat Khan did not pray for strength or protection from Teylas and he did not commit his soul into the keeping of The Lord of Sky. He had always shown Teylas the respect and honour he was due as god and lord and only the weak asked for other than they had earned. By his actions would he earn victory or honourable death and no one, not even Teylas, could say that Jadarat Khan had ever come to him with sores of the feet and dust of the ground to ask for his boon.
Seizing on a minute opening provided by two Solonese corpse-warriors in the front-line collapsing simultaneously and a knot of bodies momentarily hindering the rank from closing, Jadarat Khan spurred his horse and dropped a third foe with an arrow in the eye. His andas and subordinate commanders recognised his mood and his desire with almost prescient clarity, the result of a decade of close association and near-constant raiding or warfare. The drums beat their wild tattoo as the closest minghans followed their Khan into the side of the Solonese formation and the rest of the Dalat ordu concentrated their fire on several places on the other two sides of the column of Solon before charging home themselves.
There are none so fearless as the dead. The Solonese did not break. The Solonese did not scatter. But the Solonese were slashed, cleaved, hammered, trampled, pierced and destroyed in droves. Neither of the other minghans succeeded in opening another gap in the Solonese line and there the Dalat charge met spears, shields and a withering close range archery barrage. But Jadarat Khan had pierced the line of spearmen with the hard core of his private yunichaar and those of his noyans he had elevated for courage and ferocity rather than their blood, wisdom, or cunning.
After these perfect killers came the most eager of the Dalat horselords, men old in war if not years and who would stand tall and proud among any warriors in the Realms. Had they faced men of living flesh and coursing blood, they would have killed them all in their thousands in the time it takes a raptor to take a hare. Even though their sabers opened dry throats, their lances transfixed still hearts and empty lungs and their axes split skulls whose contents were nothing but an evil red glow, they did fearful carnage and left behind them a trail of shattered foes.
They also left their beloved mares, andas closer than family and their lifeblood. Jadarat Khan rode through the ranks of Solon with the bulk of his ordu, but when he emerged on the other side, he now commanded only enough men to make two full minghans. Three of every five who had ridden with him into the vale of Alashan were dead or so wounded that they could not ride, which was worse. But though he had left a broad streak of trampled foes through the enemy formation, the shattered column had already started trying to reform. Incredibly, enough Solonese remained so that they might even outnumber the remaining steppe warriors and among these were some of the more fearsome oni.
In the meantime, the streets of Alashan were crowded with ravening forsaken and the disciplined shock infantry whose oni-led controlled fury broke Khazari counterattacks and attempts to block the enemy advance. Shadows released by the storm of hungry darkness hunted Khazari in the streets.
Jadarat Khan saw that the gates of Alashan had opened on the east side of the fortress city, away from the breach. Some of Angbang Idumalla's cavalry was pouring through, into the city, but others were holding the path to the gate. To Jadarat Khan's incisive mind, sharpened by the clarity of battle, their intentions were clear. Those on the outside were securing their route of retreat, the ones inside the city had not come there to prevent its fall, they had come to bring out Prince Ogandi. Perhaps it was all that they could hope to do, for the situation insdide was so confused and the terror of the defenders so acute that there was no hope to turn the tide on the narrow streets.
Relieved of the threat of Angbang Idumalla's cavalry charging them from the flank, the Solonese heavy horse and elephants had already managed to cut off the retreat of the Dalat ordu back into Khazari. Even so, Jadarat knew that he could punch through with heavy losses. He also knew that nothing prevented him from taking his Dalat ordu out of the vale, out of Khazari and to their tribal lands in the northwest. The Solonese meant to slaughter him or drive him away from their conquest, it appeared that they were indifferent which he chose.
The Khan took in the situation with a quick turn of his exhausted and bleeding mare. Judging the distance of the enemy cavalry and the speed of their inexorable advance, he turned to the warriors of his yunichaar. "Slaves of my sword, bearers of my quiver, servants of my mare; I renounce my right of conquest and capture. Your Bridle is Held by the Khan no more."
Not one of them was unwounded and most kept in their saddle only by pride and long habit. Their faces and mother tongues were those of many ordu and tribes, even nations and races. Yet their voices sounded as one, West or East or Taangan, human, orc, hobgoblin or gnoll: "Our blood is your blood, our breath is your breath, by your will we kill, live or die. Uran Dalat Khan!"
Addressing all of his men, from grizzled Arslan-Batu, his anda from birth and noyan-yar of the Dalat down to the youngest of his warriors, Jaradan Khan said in a low, but carrying voice: "I release you from words of iron, hold you free of oaths of blood and absolve you of all fealty. By the Sky Above and the Earth Below, you are free of me while I am Bound to you."
The surviving noyans of the Dalat looked at their chief and all the andas of Jadaran Khan gathered around him. No word of discussion was spoken, no question was asked. If most of them looked often to the east and the trotting line of Solonese cavalry, calculation in their eyes, it is because they were warriors and commanders, whose situational awareness is second to none. If some of them glanced to the broad mouth of the vale in the west and thought of the fires, yurts and wives of Dalat Ashiyana, it would be natural.
Raising high his gory blade and forcing his wounded left to heft his long-handled battle ax, Jadaran Khan, lord of a fell ordu and the son of the Khanan who needed no name or other title in the firetales as long as the Kora Shan stand, raised his voice to echo through the vale and reach Teylas and perhaps the Khahan riding to hunt the endless sky by his side: "Uran Dalat! Uran Khazari! Dalat Khazari!"
If the words of the alien battle cry felt strange in their throats, it did not impede their volume. The Dalat Khazari, free men all and unsworn, filled the vale with the echoes of their full-throated uran and then followed their chief where he led, drowning pain, exhaustion and fear by ever louder shouts of their new uran. Gradually, the competing clamour of cries convalesced into a single chant: "Dalat Khazari! Noyan-Prince! Uran Noyan-Prince!"
The column of Solonese spearmen and archers had not managed to reform fully, but with the stoicism of the living dead, those remaining formed smaller knots of dense ranks and received the charge of the Dalat Khazari. Jaradan Noyan-Prince slew Arbeg Demchogjin, a great a horned lord of the oni who towered over even the tallest rider and fought with a great black sword of dark flame. Then he went among the undying ones reaping their cursed bodies as if he rode with Teylas. Not to be outdone, Arslan-Batu buried his long lance in the immense gut of the demon Ölu Durga.
Prince Ogabandi had directed the defences of Alashan, as much as was possible. The shocking breach and the speed of their advance, however, had cut him off from the majority of his soldiers and before he could reach the fortified palace to organise the last defence, he was caught by a wave of gibbering forsaken hungry for the flesh of the living. His royal guard fought them off, again and again, while retreating toward the palace, but they finally found their way there blocked by a leering oni with mis-shapen bat-wings and a troop of winged demons.
Fighting now alongside his royal guard, with the cool skill of dedicated practise and diligent attention to his duties, Prince Ogandi Tsipiang calmly noted the arrival of disciplined and heavily armoured infantry, dead for longer than the hungry forsaken and with none of their passionate hatred and lust for marrow, but more dangerous to a tight formation of courageous and skilled royal guards nonetheless.
Prince Ogandi was the scion of a house of warlords of old, but he was not by nature a warrior. Yet he reflected, as he felt the slowing of his reflexes and the cold of his blood that told him that the wound under his cuirass was both deep and serious, that if his ancient kingdom and his fractious people were lost, he was content to die by the side of the best and most loyal men in the realm, whose lives they were throwing away in cheerful sacrifice if it might prolong his royal life and the rule of House Zanda by only moments longer.
Prince Ogandi was aware that he still went through the mechanical motions of parry, sidestep and even the occasional riposte, but he had lost track of why. Along with only a few royal guards he was partially sheltered by the bodies of allies and the remains of foes, but the sea of the dead was closing in over them.
Shouts and drumbeats reached him as if down into a deep abyss of water. No, no drumbeats, hoofbeats. He felt himself hauled off the ground and tried to slash, but his limbs no longer responded to his thoughts. He must have passed out, because he knew nothing until he noticed that he was being removed through the eastern gate of Alashan. He tried to cry out that he didn't want to leave, that death with his loyal men was the best he could hope for now, but no one replied. Perhaps he never spoke at all or perhaps no one could hear him in the thunder of hooves, the din of battle and the horror of the sack.
The face of the Prince turned to the floor of the vale. There a great battle had raged and a colum of Solonese had been torn into forlorn knots of dead warriors vainly trying to reform some battle line. Those still moving were greatly outnumbered by the destroyed. Yet the Tuigan had clearly suffered worse, for out of the great ordu that had ridden into the vale there was only a small group of ragged horsemen, many two to a mare, struggling to avoid being overrun by the mass of Solonese cavalry that surrounded them on all sides.
Yet incredibly, Prince Ogandi could see that their leader still had wits and presence of mind. As the rhythm of the battle suddenly presented a chance, Prince Ogandi noticed it not until the Tuigan khan had already made use of it. With the fiercest and most aggressive of his surviving men, he managed to punch through a thin line and reach a group of mighty riders in suits of blood-red copper and on mounts of shadow and hellfire. His long-handled axe he left embedded in the join of helm and armour and the lance that held the demonic standard he seized from the stiffening hand.
Moving his sword to his weak left hand, this Tuigan khan with his few remaining men rode at a great unliving elephant and threw his captured lance at a dimly-glowing red eye. As the Tuigan passed the great beast, it crumbled to the ground, crushing Solonese cavalry and infantry who continued their chase without a thought to avoid it.
Scattered groups of cavalry, each of which outnumbered the small band of Tuigan many times over, still hunted them all over the vale, but there was a chance, at least, a glimmer of a chance, that a determined ride for the mouth of the vale might win through.
The distance and darkness was too great for Prince Ogandi to see anything clearly. He knew later that only imagination could have produced the clarity with which he thought he saw the Tuigan khan look toward the column of Khazari bearing the person of the Prince of the House of Zanda. They had already ascended the hill which led to the secret ways which Angbang Idemalla no doubt intented to use to make pursuit difficult.
The khan was Jadaran Khan, the man who called himself Prince and claimed to rule Khazari, by right of blood and faith the fief of House Zanda and its scion Prince Ogandi Tsipiang. His face was drenched with blood that still flowed freely from a gash that bisected it and one eye was either out entirely or else so covered in gore it could not open.
Yet Prince Ogandi thought he saw a fierce look of contempt on his war-weathered face as he lifted his notched sword in sardonic salute to the departing Khazari. He even thought he heard an echoing shout of "Dalat Khazari!" and a ragged chorus of "Noyan-Prince" before the tiny band of nomads turned away from any hope of ever reaching the mouth of the vale to charge into the largest of the remaining groups of Solonese infantry with their swords held high.
*His third chronologically, coming after his match with his 'First Empress', daughter of Abatai the Commmani and his marriage of duty and custom to his father's widow, Eke Bayalun, was the Princess Chichek, daughter of Yeke-Noyan (Buqagelgei) of the Dalat and an aunt of Prince Ogandi. The winsome Princess Chichek died under what could not, in fairness, be called mysterious circumstances shortly after Yamun took his new wife with him to share winter quarters with Eke Bayalun in the fifth year of their marriage, but not before having given birth to a pair of children, Radnatani and Jadaran.
**Well, actually mostly Jadaran's own Dalats.
***Though, obviously, concentrating all of the force above at any one spot would be difficult. Yet Alashan alone held almost ten thousand men and the reserve cavalry forces which might reasonably be expected to arrive in short order, the ones under Jadaran Khan and Angbang (Governor) Idemalla, respectively, numbered around 5,000 men each. With this force alone, they would outnumber the foe almost 2 to 1 already and given that this could be no feint, most of the other two reserve forces could be sent up to support them, swelling their numbers by at least six thousand more within a day. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 02 Mar 2012 12:58:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 14:45:19
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The Wages of Sin and the Rewards of Virtue
After the crushing defeat at Alanshan, the defence of the rest of Khazari was a forlorn hope. Before the cavalry of Angbang Idumalla and Yaramban Srong al Mulk could even finish regrouping at Manass, the undead horde was on the move again, more numerous than ever before. The Khazari fled or hid if they could, those who couldn't mostly died and rose again as monstrosities in the armies of Solon.
Fortunately for Khazari, the mysterious Raja of Solon did not linger in their realm. He secured the road through it and then marched his bolstered armies against Shou Lung. Even knowing of the fell power of the Raja, Prince Ogandi was shocked at such audacity. With an army less than one fifth of the Tuigan horde, a mysterious potentate of a fallen state threathened the oldest and most powerful empire in the world.
Those he left behind to guard his new acquisition of Khazari were mostly those unliving corpses whose physical condition made them unsuited for sustained marching. Those without legs or with broken, twisted torsos, or the frail remnants of too many reanimations. In command were oni whose cruelty and sadism greatly exceeded their cunning as administrators or military officers.
The noble retinues of Khazari's landowner knights and aristocracy, still formidable despite the two conquests of their native land in as many years, had little trouble with sweeping them away as soon as the Raja had left with his army. Prince Ogandi was left to pick up the pieces of Khazari, again. But if the last invasion had promised to redress the power balance between Prince and nobility, allowing him to win back some of the authority gradually eroded from the House of Zanda, this one had left him in a weaker position than ever before, with the majority of his royal guard and most of his loyal supporters dead at Alashan. The nobles, meanwhile, were as powerful as they ever were.
The strength of the noble contingents was the result of what Prince Ogandi would not have hesitated to call commendable and prudent statesmanship on the part of their commanders in earlier days, as they did not allow themselves to be committed to uncertain causes without any means of egress or an alternate plan. Now he wondered what Jadaran Khan would call such conduct and remembered with a pang the vivid moment when he imaginined the look of contempt on the horselord's harsh face and heard him shout: "Dalat Khazari!"
The high nobles who wielded most of the true power of Khazari, Angbangs of the Five Cities and the largest landowners of the realm, rejoiced in reports from around the world. The power of Yamun Khahan was broken and no new conqueror of the Tuigan appeared to trouble their land. Solon and Shou Lung were at each other's throats, leaving neither free to menace the independence or safety of Khazari. Long under the shadow of the proud and paternalistic Empire of Shou Lung, many of the Khazari nobles took delight in hearing how the mighty armies of that civilisation were brought low time after time by the Solonese armies.
When Prince Ogandi heard that the commander of the Solonese cavalry and the architect of their stunning victories against the Shou Lung was the Arkhagan Pai-Taangan, an invincible death knight, he wept bitter tears. Later on, as the Raja of Solon had disappared and most of his armies disintergrated into chaos and hunger for the living, Prince Ogandi left his ceremonial position in greatest secrecy and undertook with a few loyal companions a pilgrimage to the mysterious Invisible Tigers.
With the aid of those holy immortals and through great sacrifice and travail, Prince Ogandi finally tracked down the Arkhagan, still leading a small band of horrifically twisted Tuigan warriors on bony horses and evading all attempts of the Shou Lung to hunt him down, carrying out an eternal war with no purpose or goal.
By the purity of the Invisible Tigers, Prince Ogandi granted the outlander conqueror who would be Prince of his land release from his evil curse, for his soul to go were it would. For the man who had died for a Khazari he neither knew nor had cause to love, when its rightful Prince could not, the scion of House Zanda could do no less.
Coming back to a realm outwardly unaware of his absence but with an aristocracy close to panic as they frantically searched for the lost symbol in whose name they ruled, Prince Ogandi faced a furious council of nobles determined to usurp his power, but cloaking their actions with the most respectful and patriotic motives. With all of his old political skill and a new-found dignity, he acceded to some of their demands by legitimising the council that in fact governed Khazari, but he refused to publicly proclaim his own position completely ceremonial by his own choice or submit to being guarded by any other than his own chosen men.
When Hubadai Khahan proclaimed the new realm of Yaimmunnahar and expressed a wish to live on terms of friendship and allegiance with his neighbours, even ones who might technically have been considered rebelling provinces of his father's empire, the aristocracy was relieved. They were also determined to have nothing to do with the hated Tuigans, whose autocratic attempts to reduce their power in favour of Prince Ogandi they well remembered. They had no graceful way to deny Hubadai Khahan an audience with their Prince, formally and outwardly still ruler of the land and the man at whose pleasure the council sat.
Prince Obadandi approached the audience with trepidation and doubts. With all of his political experience and personal acumen, he attempted to read the intentions of Hubadai Khahan, brother to Jadaran Khan, son of Yamun Khahan, and the man whose vagaries of mood might make the difference between Khazari prosperity and freedom and the complete subjugation of its people and culture.
Yet Prince Ogandi could obtain no certainty of whether Hubadai Khahan was sincere, whether he was truly a Tuigan who had renounced the right of conquest and was willing to acknowledge as rights that which the weak could not defend by themselves, or if he was a conqueror of diabolical cunning and deceit.
Without quite believing it himself, Prince Obandi did something he had not done for as long as he remembered. He abandoned calculation and the pursuit of political advantage and spoke to Hubadai Khahan simply and without artifice, a confession and baring of his soul, from one man to another. The battle, the vision of Prince Ogandi and the astonishing battle cry of the Dalat, the death of the last of the Dalat and their Khan, brother to Hubadai Khahan, the calculated caution and cowardice of the Khazari nobles, the horror of the final fate for those who died at Alashan and finally the end of Jadaran Khan.
Hubadai did not once interrupt the extraordinary tale of the Khazari Prince. His stern bronze face, darker and graver of feature than his brother's, though they were almost the same age, and the glittering dark bird of prey eyes that they shared allowed no hint of his reaction to show.
Prince Obandi did not so much finish as he eventually succumbed to the hush of the private audience chamber; having poured out not only his story, but a rambling, incoherent attempt to explain his motives and emotions, pouring out his innermost secret self in the shyly determined, oddly solitary and supremely awkward way possessed only by people whose bodyguard of lies and half-truths have become an invisible cage seperating them from all others.
A long silence reigned. Hubadai Khahan broke it with a surprisingly gentle voice. "We will speak his name no more. It is taboo in all the lands between Teylas and Etugan, from the frozen waters to jungle, mountains and lands of the farmers. His firetales will speak of Noyan-Prince, of the House Dalat Khazari, your brother as much as mine."
And so it passed that while the council that governs Khazari still hopes that Yaimmunnahar will be swallowed by a hungry chasm or somehow arrange to disappear from existence in other ways, the Prince Obandi Tsipiang of House Zanda is in strictest secrecy anda to Hubadai Khahan of Yaimmunnahar, his brother in blood and spirit. And all over the Taangan, nomads of the steppe, no matter whom they follow or fight against, tell the firetale of Noyan-Prince, Prince of Khazari, Bane of Ayahkrus Azi Turuk, Slayer of Arbeg Demochogjin, Reaper of the Dead, the Fell Horselord, Invincible Warlord, Terror of Shou Lung, the Unconquered, Victor over the Devourer and the Wolf who Runs with Teylas. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 02 Mar 2012 14:50:41 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 15:29:08
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Solon History:
3e Dragon Magic, Wyrmbane Helm entry, pg.104
But you'll just choose to ignore it, since its not an 'official FR source'. Your definition of 'canon' seems to vary on whether you like it or not. The other sources I have for K-T/Horde/Tan-Chin lore are also all 'core' products, which is why I didn't think you'd bother to accept them.
But it is proof of past Draconic activities in the regions of Semphar and Mulhorand (tying it to 4e a little better).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2012 15:29:38 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 16:02:06
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I do not recall having stated that nothing that appears in a product without the Forgotten Realms logo can ever be canon.
On the other hand, I admit that I am much less likely to notice Realmslore when it is in core D&D material or when pointed out, less likely to have such books if they are 3.5e. I think I can borrow this one, though.
What I do not consider canon without confirmation in another source are generic adventure seeds, items or other nuggets that are listed along with suggestions or ideas on how to incorporate them into a number of D&D worlds. In that case, the suggested way to tie it into Realmslore can be mined for ideas or might even be later canonised, but divergent canon is not obligated to be interpreted with it in mind and nor does not necessarily bind future design or creative work if a better idea comes along.
Thanks, by the way. And I'd love to be pointed to the other sources, as I don't have them to flip through and will have to drop in on a neighbour and ask to look at specific ones. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 02 Mar 2012 16:03:12 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 18:42:54
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2e Book of Artifacts.
Acorn of Wo Mai - George Krashos and I have worked-out how the Copper Demon is actually an entrapped archfiend, in a special armor/construct similar to a Helmed Horror, created by the Raumathari and based on ancient Imaskari designs. On my own (IMG), I have determined that the Fiend Lord is actually Ma Yuan, killer of the gods (tying it to someone else's homebrew recorded here at the keep - Ma Yuan was very active in the East during the ToT, and I wanted to establish that he had a past in FR). I have also connected him to the downfall of Tsharoon (brief entry in the FR timeline in Dragon #228, regarding a fallen kingdom in the once-fertile Quoya).
All-Knowing Eye of Yasmin Sira - Zakharan history
Blackjammer's Cutlass is tied to the Tears of Selune, but is technically a Realmspace/SJ artifact, and contains no real history.
Coin of Jisan - Zakharan History
Death Rock - although not mentioned in its entry, it is referenced in the K-T material, so it is from the Realms. No useful history, though.
Hammer of Gesen - directly linked to the Hordelands and the Great Khans.
Herald of Mei Lung - This tome is referenced in the K-T/Tabot material. Mei Lung is very important to the history of K-T.
Iron Bow of Gesen - directly linked to the Hordelands and the Great Khans.
Ivory Chain of Pao - K-T history, revolving around the Black Leopard Cult.
Monocle of Bagthalos - Interesting FR history (Helm) in the Lands of Intrigue but nothing Realms-shaking, and nothing pertinent to your avenues of interest.
Regalia of Might - technically Planescape/Great Wheel, but a very interesting read about the Godswar, which ties into FR indirectly (and perhaps directly, given some of the 4e material).
Scepter of the Sorceror Kings - Netherese history. The word 'Sorcere' comes from the east, and has been linked to the Imaskari as well. Because there is nearly no other instances of the Netheres Archmages being called 'Sorcerers', I have linked this item to the Thaeravel survivors and knowledge gleaned from those people by the Netherese. I have also established (purely homebrew) that there was a little-know (by the Imaskari) Artificer Enclave in the area first settled by Hilathir and his retinue. A little convoluted, but it establishes and early Imaskari presence in the Stonelands/Goblin Marches region, which fixes a few other continuity glitches (for instance, the name 'Sorcerer Kings' was used in the Land of Alabaster Towers, and is a hold-over from Imaskari culture).
Seal of Jafar A-Samal - Zakharan history, and fairly important to the history of Al-Qadim.
Throne of the Gods - like the Regalia of Might (above), it is more of a Planescape entry, but is therefor indirectly linked to the Realms (you'll note a lot of my cosmological musing are based upon the wider D&D universe, and not just FR).
The 4e source Open Grave has some quasi-canon/Apocryphal about Tan Chin - you can tell its about him and Ra-Khati, but the names have been slightly altered to make it more generic/core. See the Hantumah info starting on pg.18.
Brian James, the author of that bit, says it was written that way so as to enable us to ignore it if we wish to. I have included a version of it in my own 'History of the Taan', but I spun it a bit differently because he seems to have completely left-out Hubadai's involvement with Princess Bhrokiti (an interesting storyline that was unfortunately never expounded upon in future lore). I didn't ignore Brian's contribution, just used it as a very bare-bones base for my own stuff (its easy enough to fudge things in a magical world, especially if you used the 'uncertain 3rd person' approach).
I could have sworn there was one more* - I may have been thinking about my own connections between Sahu and the Utter East (Sahu being canon from tCboN, but the Utter East being a hodgepodge of very disconnected lore from several sources, some quasi-canonical).
You can also find a good timeline of the Shou dynasties on the K-T map that came with the boxed set (like I keep saying, lore is often hidden in very strange places). That helped me a lot with my K-T timeline (which includes MANY entries taken directly from the sources, which were never included in any version of the GHotR).
K-T history often disagrees with itself - each section is written as if it is from that region, which means different regions would spin events differently (especially if they were at war). This is easily rectified by the wonderful 'inaccurate history' McGuffin built into the setting (Shou emperors modifying the official histories to make Shou-Lung and themselves look better).
*I just recalled - names for the Suren and Kalmyk leaders and some brief history can be found in the Horselords novel. I have listed these elsewhere on this site - I no longer have those sources. I remember I had to switch-around some of my musings, because one of those leaders is specifically referred to as a 'man', and I have it where the Kalmyk were a Gnoll(-led) people. It still worked for the other group, however, and it was a simple fix (the Kalmyk were lead by the Copper Demon up to a point, and after its defeat, the Suren split-off from the main group; that is the point in which it is very easy to say the human Kalmyk abandoned the demon-lead gnoll Kalymk (or vice-verse... I forget now). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2012 18:43:44 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 19:08:13
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-The way Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms was written makes me want to punch people. I don't particularly like that it was written from a first-person point of view, as that can make dating things and establishing the historicity of events problematic, but that is what it is. The damn book can't even present multiple chapters in the same manner- use the same damn subheadings and subchapters for every nation. Don't give us four pages about culture in Shou Lung, and then three paragraphs about culture in Wa.
-And, of course, the information about religions.  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2012 : 19:24:56
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Bad for the FR historian/fan/buff, but great for the DM/designer who does need to 'fudge things'.
In a setting where people can literally 'turn back time', teleport, take the form of others, etc, etc... is it that hard to find ways around all the gaffs? We even have at least two canon instances where extremely powerful magic made entire portions of 'history' get obliterated (forgotten about by witnesses, AND even expunged from physical records!)
And thats only in the figurative sense; we have another one - The Sundering - where millenia literally got 'erased' and re-written.
This is why I maintain FR is THE most fixable setting ever created - the tools are built right into the lore. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2012 19:25:30 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 01:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Acorn of Wo Mai - George Krashos and I have worked-out how the Copper Demon is actually an entrapped archfiend, in a special armor/construct similar to a Helmed Horror, created by the Raumathari and based on ancient Imaskari designs.
Very good. Sounds similar to how I imagined him. Is there any information about what Tros is and how it became the appelation of our beloved Copper Demon?
Without any further data, the most likely sources of the name are, in rough order of probability in my mind:
a) Most plausible to me is that Tros is the first region/city/other geographic area where the Copper Demon started his conquest in -248 DR. It would thus be within the dominion of the Suren, that is, south of the Kora Shan and most likely in the eastern part of the Endless Wastes, but possibly in the Katakoro Shan somewhere. It is even theoretically possible that it was in west or north-west Shou Lung. The reason this is most plausible to me is that the people (Suren, Shou or Katakorans) who 'named' the fiend were obviously not familiar enough with his origins for them to do anything but call him by his external appearance and it is thus unlikely that they even knew where he came from before he arrived in the lands that would become his dominions.
b) That before the Copper Demon reached the stage of supplanting human rulers, subjugating human populations and exercising authority (almost certainly through the remains of previous political structures) in a manner recognisable to humans, though cruel and predatory, he rampaged and killed indiscriminately, or, at most, functioned as a warlord at the head of human, humanoid and monstrous raiders who did not settle down to govern. Tros would then be the first large settlement destroyed in an orgy of violence that eventually grew into conquest. Tros would thus be somewhere south and east of Raumathari lands, but probably not as far east or south as the lands that he grew to rule.
c) That Tros is the name of the area, mountain, tomb or other landmark where the Copper Demon was trapped and from whence he escaped. This would have been somewhere within the Raumathari sphere of influence, though not necessarily anywhere within their direct dominions. Most likely area seems to be any of the mountain ranges near Winterkeep, i.e. Glittering Spires and others to the north and the Kora Shan to the south and east.
d) That Tros is the Raumathari landmark or city where the archfiend was originally bound into his copper armour. This could be anywhere within Raumathari lands.
e) That Tros is the Raumathari conjuror credited with binding and/or controlling the archfiend.
Etymologically, the word does not sound Shou at all and is not all that like the Tuiganic languages of the modern steppes.* On the other hand, a mostly flat land inhabited by mobile horse-nomads would need something really strange going on if it did not experience periodic waves of conquest backward and forward, which suggests that cultures linguistically and genetically far removed from the modern Tuigan have at various times dominated that same geographic area.
So merely because speakers of languages derived in one way or another from one language of ancient Imaskar now dominate the steppes doesn't mean that peoples who retained their own languages from pre-Imaskari days or just other Imaskari subject peoples whose languages derive from another language spoken in the Empire and whose subsequent evolution was divergent couldn't have done so earlier and left names like 'Tros'.
*In modern terms, it cannot possibly be Sino-Tibetan in origin and the combination of 't' and 'r' into one phoneme is atypical for Proto-Mongolic or any languages hypothetically related to it in an Altaic language family. To us, it must suggest Indo-European or related origin. This suggests Raumviri, Raumathari or any predecessors that might have left descendants still naming places on the steppes ca 1500-2000 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On my own (IMG), I have determined that the Fiend Lord is actually Ma Yuan, killer of the gods (tying it to someone else's homebrew recorded here at the keep - Ma Yuan was very active in the East during the ToT, and I wanted to establish that he had a past in FR).
Why don't I remember anything about Ma Yuan? Ma' Yuan is a province of Shou Lung, but a god-killing demon of that name draws a complete blank from me.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have also connected him to the downfall of Tsharoon (brief entry in the FR timeline in Dragon #228, regarding a fallen kingdom in the once-fertile Quoya).
That's a timeline from ca 220s DR during which Tsharoon still stood, isn't it? Cool!
So, what, Quoya wasn't there? Or was it just smaller? How did it become a desert?
*Well, climatically, it should be a desert anyway without any magical explanation. Maybe Tsaroon was built by using magic to irrigate the desert and when its wizards died by dragonclaw and breath, the Quoya slowly claimed back its lands.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Scepter of the Sorceror Kings - Netherese history. The word 'Sorcere' comes from the east, and has been linked to the Imaskari as well.
From whence comes that bit of Realms-etymology? I've been wondering what workers of battle spells who did not design or craft magical items were called in Imaskar. Surely there were those, even among that upper echelon of Imaskari who could use magic whose talents lay less in theory and design than in warfare, perhaps with less magical ability, but more tactical acumen, aggression, situational awareness and physical courage.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because there is nearly no other instances of the Netheres Archmages being called 'Sorcerers', I have linked this item to the Thaeravel survivors and knowledge gleaned from those people by the Netherese. I have also established (purely homebrew) that there was a little-know (by the Imaskari) Artificer Enclave in the area first settled by Hilathir and his retinue.
Thaeravel falls in -3,392 DR while Hilather is described as a 'young prodigy' when he first emerges in lore at some point after -3,234 DR (the fortress where he entraps Madryoch wasn't founded until then).
While I have no doubt that powerful arcanists engaged in various thaumaturgical shenanigans to extend their god-given three-score and ten years, I still think that it would be strange for a text written by GHotR's omniscient narrator to refer to a 170-year-old man staving off death by the power of his magic as 'young'. So I think that Hilather was probably not born until after the fall of Thaeravel.
On the other hand, the Scepter is clearly based on Imaskari principles and I would even go so far as to say that it is Imaskari in concept and in magical tradition. Unfortunately, the Book of Artifacts has what sounds very much like an episode from Imaskari history happen in Netheril.
And there is no mention of dozens monstrously powerful divine minions attacking Netheril in the history of that civilisation in Arcane Age, an omission that must rate as somewhat momentous. Surely angelic attacks repulsed by god-slaying artifacts in struggles that shake the world itself are worth mentioning?
My prefered fix would be to have Glaeros Lhaerimm and his fellow sorceror-kings be isolated from the rest of Netheril and to be steeped in Imaskari lore and philosophy. Given that tBoA has Lhaerimm suggested as responsible for the spread of the Aunaroch desert, I'd make him and his fellow Sorceror-Kings members of a renegade faction of the Ba'aetith, hidden in their stronghold of antediluvian magic and lore beneath what would become Aunaroch.
This renegade faction would believe that the deities were nothing but beings who had acquired the secrets of the multiverse by their magical prowess and resolved to end their dominion (with the unspoken addendum that the Sorceror-Kings would then be in their place, more or less).
I imagine that by this time, most of these renegades would be latter-day additions, not original Creator Race members. Probably mostly Imaskari, who had been contacted by the few 'surviving' sarrukh and batrachi sorcerors when they had noticed a magic-user of particular power and antipathy to the gods. With the rise of Netheril, some of the Netherse would have been similarily recruited. Glaeros Lhaerimm was the mighiest of these.
As the gods finally brought down the arrogant Sorceror-Kings in their stronghold, they must have done something truly terrible to them. Incidentally, and not at all connected, the name by which the mysterious race of thornback sorcerors below Aunaroch is known today is cognate with that of the crafter of the Scepter. This, of course, means nothing. But it doesn't actually say that the Sorceror-Kings were all human. And the Ba'aetith were a secret society transcending at least three racial emnities between Creator Races. A society which somehow survived the fall of Isstosseffifil to the thornbacks.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You can also find a good timeline of the Shou dynasties on the K-T map that came with the boxed set (like I keep saying, lore is often hidden in very strange places). That helped me a lot with my K-T timeline (which includes MANY entries taken directly from the sources, which were never included in any version of the GHotR).
Gah! Maps fall apart or are lost. Who still has maps from the boxed sets?
Which map ought I be digging for, with only a forlorn hope of success? On the back of the largest one? The one of the Imperial city?
And do you have an early version of your timeline including canon only dates?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*I just recalled - names for the Suren and Kalmyk leaders and some brief history can be found in the Horselords novel. I have listed these elsewhere on this site - I no longer have those sources. I remember I had to switch-around some of my musings, because one of those leaders is specifically referred to as a 'man', and I have it where the Kalmyk were a Gnoll(-led) people. It still worked for the other group, however, and it was a simple fix (the Kalmyk were lead by the Copper Demon up to a point, and after its defeat, the Suren split-off from the main group; that is the point in which it is very easy to say the human Kalmyk abandoned the demon-lead gnoll Kalymk (or vice-verse... I forget now).
Damn, I got those books from the library and I don't remember this part now. And it's not as if I can run out and borrow them again in the middle of the night.
While I understand that you prefer incorporating 'monstrous' humanoids into the history of the Endless Wastes to a greater extent (a direction which I agree with), I don't think that there are any hints in canon that the Kalmyk and Suren were anything but an amalgamation of steppe tribes like the modern Tuigan.
I'm thinking about the origin of the steppe custom of the Yunichaar, though. Given that the modern Tuigan include gnolls, orcs, hobgoblins and ogre-kin, it makes sense that the Kalmyk and Suren might have had legions of nearly any humanoid race you prefer. And real history certainly offers plenty of examples of enslaved or 'alien' warriors who fight for an elite of another 'race' coming to rule empires in the course of events.
We know that both in -150 DR and 80 DR, the Suren were described as 'horse barbarians' by the Raumviri/Raumathari on one hand and the Shou on the other. No mention is made then of them being in any way non-human or demonic.
Of course, the use of the word 'Kalmyk' and 'Suren' is an obvious echo of the real world Kalmyks* and the Oirat**. If they were to be our analogy, the fall of the Imaskari Empire probably led to an initial era of warring tribes, where the ones with the most Imaskari technology and magic displaced the ones with less.
Probably 'Proto-Indo-European-esque' people like the forerunners of Sossrim, Raumviri and Raumathari ended up with most of the northwest steppes. I imagine that the central steppes and even extending at times far into the Plain of Horses to the Arundi River were dominated by a mixed bag of former Imaskari cavalry of all sorts, speakers of languages derived from theirs just like the modern steppe nomads, but possibly ethnically more 'European' in appearance.
A much larger Solon to the north and whatever was in the former Imaskari heartlands between -2488 DR and ca -1500 DR would have made up a region where the nomads dared not go and for the beginning of the period Anok-Imaskar ruled the Katakoro and down south into the Larang valleys, extending some distance to the east into what would become Shou Lung, but not all the way to coast. After its time, most if that area became survivor states of various kinds.
By the time of the fall, Imaskar had actual cavalry, so it follows that some breeds of horses were by then large enough to supports a full-sized man, saddle and war gear. On the other hand, it is by no means certain that the survivors of the fall would have managed to bring a lot of those horses with them. The breeding stock was probably confined to Imaskari keepers, with the Taangan cavalry riding mares or geldings.
I like to think that the first centuries after the fall saw mostly chariot warfare on the Taangan, before the tribes learned to breed the few larger horses brought with them from Imaskar with the wild steppe pony to produce a marginally bigger steppe horse, large enough for cavalry. The pace of raiding and consequent migrations would thus have been slow at first, but then gradually speeded up until steppe warfare had acquired the very mobile character that it would forever retain. So if one tribe was unable to defeat a constantly raiding neighbour, they'd move away over the years. Slow, at first, but faster later.
The 'Tuiganic' peoples, most likely not as favoured under the Imaskari as other groups closer to the ruling wizards in blood and appearance, would have been at a disadvantage in tribal conflicts in the centuries after the fall, lacking the wealth of metal and magic that more trusted peoples were equipped with in their military service for the Empire. This would have caused their retreat over time, generally to the east from whence they originally came. Of course, this is a broad generalisation. A lot of genetically Tuiganic peoples instead joined with the 'Turkic-esque' Taangan tribes, starting (or continuing) the ethnic admixtures that today characterises the steppes.
The Kalmyk would be tribes who regarded themselves as primarily 'Tuiganic', but who remained on the steppes to the west of the Arundi River, protected in part by the Hagga Shan (which would moderate the weather there, making it more survivable than that of the oppen steppes leading up to it). The rise of the Kalmyks would then be the reason for the modern domination of 'Tuiganic' peoples on the steppes.
Damn, my digression grew so long I can hardly remember what it was about when I started. Yes, hobgoblins and gnolls and whatnot. As I said, I'd connect such races with the Kalmyk and Suren as legions of increasingly powerful and politically significant Yunichaar warrior-slaves who then might have founded their own kingdoms as the confederations of horselords fell apart.
*Which means 'those who remained'.
**Meaning 'those in the east', so at least there was a change of direction between real world and Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 05:31:01
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I have always assumed Tros was the capital of Tsharoon - that 'lost city' in the Merket depression (Oasis).
In my own history, the city, and then the entire nation, was stricken with madness (which I attribute to the demon, of course).
Ma Yuan was in the 1e Deities & Demigods, in the Chinese pantheon - he is an archfiend/demi-power that is known as the "Killer of the Gods". He was used in someone else's homebrew here at the keep, regarding the Oriental deities during the ToT. My assumption here is that he was summoned by the Narfeli Demonbinders during the war, and then imprisoned within a special Raumathari Horned Horror (the demonic version of a Helmed Horror), and then turned against his summoners.
In the end, he was too powerful to control, and would usually run amok on the battlefield killing anything that moved, and so they imprisoned him... until he was able to break free when the Great Conflagration occurred (where both his tormentors fell). He went into hiding, taking over and uniting northern tribes of Horselords and influencing the growing decadence in the nation of Tsharoon, until he was ready to strike in -247 (a period of 87 years).
'Sorcere' is from Earth-east, and since Imaskar has much Middle-eastern influence (having interacted with the Egyptians and others) I assume this is the origin of the term in the Realms (Sha'ir is Zakharan for 'Sorcerer'). Also, the Imaskari have been referred to as Sorcerers in early lore (which is why I think Theraeval had some influence from the Imaskari, whether is was through Hilathar or not). There is no canon basis for that supposition - its just a very convenient way to fudge a strange bit of lore (that the Land Of Alabaster Towers has zero known about it, its an easy 'scapegoat' for these odd bits). It is my way of injecting some Imaskari into Netheril indirectly.
There is a quasi-canonical bit of lore regarding the two - that the Imaskari saw a flying enclave in the distance - it was an entry that got cut from the final version of the published GHotR (all it implies is that the two briefly over-lapped, but Imaskar fell while Netheril was still on the rise).
It is my understanding that Quoya was fertile during the time of Tsharoon. Not only did that nation exist there, but there are indications in the Hordelands material. I even assume a waterway between a lake where the Merket depression now stands leading to Gbor Nor, and another that lead down to a another lake at the site of the Imaskari capital of Inupras (connecting various portions of the empire by sea trade).
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts. I'm not able to locate which map the imperial dynasties was on, but I'll keep looking for that. It was on a map I owned physically, and the only K-T source I owned that wasn't a pdf was the box set, and yet, I can't find it on those ATM. It could just be I got a badly scanned pdf (it happens - I bought quite a few of them before WotC stopped Paizo from selling them).
While looking for certain dates, I did find THIS - the stuff on the L-List can usually be taken as canon (most of it came from designers back in the day). You may find it of some use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2012 05:31:55 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 13:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have always assumed Tros was the capital of Tsharoon - that 'lost city' in the Merket depression (Oasis).
Could very well be.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In my own history, the city, and then the entire nation, was stricken with madness (which I attribute to the demon, of course).
Whatever happened to them, Tsaroon was still known and not under desert in 237 DR, according to Dragon #228. So if the Copper Tyrant caused that realm to fall, he would have had to do so almost five centuries after being slain in -240 DR. Which would imply that he returned to the Realms at that time. Do we have any hints in lore that there was a second reign of terror by the Copper Demon in the 3rd century of Dalereckoning?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the end, he was too powerful to control, and would usually run amok on the battlefield killing anything that moved, and so they imprisoned him... until he was able to break free when the Great Conflagration occurred (where both his tormentors fell). He went into hiding, taking over and uniting northern tribes of Horselords and influencing the growing decadence in the nation of Tsharoon, until he was ready to strike in -247 (a period of 87 years).
Note that you're working with negative numbers of years. The date of the Great Conflagration, -160 to -150 DR, is not before the date of the Copper Demon's reign, it is after it.
-247 DR is 247 years before the raising of the Standing Stone.
-160 DR is 160 years before the same event, or in other words, 87 years later.
The Copper Demon has to have escaped well before the fall of Raumathar and Narfell. As I don't view it as a subtle creature, I imagine that its escape was not too long before it enters the written record in -248 DR, but it is, of course, possible that the seizing of the eastern lands of the horse nomands was the result of an intricate plan measured in decades or centuries, and not simply an orgy of blood and conquest taking place in a few years.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Sorcere' is from Earth-east,
It comes from Vulgar Latin, originally through Latin by a root related to 'sorting' which was linked to a divinatory practice of drawing lots. European and Western in origin, I'm afraid.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
and since Imaskar has much Middle-eastern influence (having interacted with the Egyptians and others) I assume this is the origin of the term in the Realms (Sha'ir is Zakharan for 'Sorcerer').
Imaskar doesn't actually show much Middle Eastern influence, apart from having employed slaves from the area in the last age of its history. There are no signs that the Imaskari ever adopted any of the languages or titles of their Mulan slaves.
Also, what we today call the Middle East is mostly shaped by languages and cultures originating in Africa. At the time the Imaskari took slaves there, the languages and cultures that we associate with the Middle East mostly weren't there and for those who were, they were located pretty far from where the Imaskari seem to have raided.
Ancient Egyptian is less related to the real world language that gave us "Sha'ir" than English is to Russian. As for the Untheri, while one of the two languages in the Sprachbund from whence spring the Untheri is considered to belong to the same language family as Arabic, this is deceptive. The relationship is no closer than that between English and Icelandic and in many ways far more distant.
What real-world influences can be spotted in Imaskari language and culture are Central Asian.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, the Imaskari have been referred to as Sorcerers in early lore (which is why I think Theraeval had some influence from the Imaskari, whether is was through Hilathar or not). There is no canon basis for that supposition - its just a very convenient way to fudge a strange bit of lore (that the Land Of Alabaster Towers has zero known about it, its an easy 'scapegoat' for these odd bits). It is my way of injecting some Imaskari into Netheril indirectly.
Pretty much every culture has some equivalent to the term 'sorcerer' and its use in descriptive text aimed at the real-world reader is not as etymologically significant as when it's used in titles that clearly apply within the culture itself.
I'm not saying that Thaeravel might not have had some connection to Imaskar. It might. Just that the fact that both had sorcerers isn't necessarily a clue. I mean, in the Realms, the drow use the word 'Sorcere' and it might just as well be an Ilithyri word.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It is my understanding that Quoya was fertile during the time of Tsharoon. Not only did that nation exist there, but there are indications in the Hordelands material. I even assume a waterway between a lake where the Merket depression now stands leading to Gbor Nor, and another that lead down to a another lake at the site of the Imaskari capital of Inupras (connecting various portions of the empire by sea trade).
The almost continous mountain ranges that lie between Quoya and the nearest ocean (absorbing moisture from the air, creating the forests seen around the mountains), not to mention the sheer distances from other sources of water, pretty much ensures that this will always be a very dry area. Intensive irrigation, magical or otherwise, can make it livable, but there is nothing especially surprising about there being a desert in this location.
In addition, the split of Imaskar into Upper and Lower Kingdoms being where it was indicates that there was probably not a trade highway through there, intergrating the economies of Limia or Semphar with locations in what became the Upper Kingdom. The spread of the plague that caused the Shaartra years also gives a pretty solid indication that the Upper Kingdom must have been fairly seperate from the Lower by natural barriers. The most plausible barrier is the Quoya, perhaps smaller than today, but still there.
You could use it in your own campaigns, of course, but for official lore, it's pretty doubtful.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts. I'm not able to locate which map the imperial dynasties was on, but I'll keep looking for that. It was on a map I owned physically, and the only K-T source I owned that wasn't a pdf was the box set, and yet, I can't find it on those ATM. It could just be I got a badly scanned pdf (it happens - I bought quite a few of them before WotC stopped Paizo from selling them).
I'm trying to find a copy of Horselords, but I'd appreciate it if you come across something.
And I have no words to describe the raging stupidity that would drive a company to make it impossible to buy their products in order to protect the value of their investments in those products. It's like smearing faeces over your sandwich to make sure that no one tries to steal a bite of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
While looking for certain dates, I did find THIS - the stuff on the L-List can usually be taken as canon (most of it came from designers back in the day). You may find it of some use.
Thanks. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 20:23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will try to find the names of those Kalmyk/Suren leaders from the novel - I will have to search my own posts.
You need not exert yourself in that any more, Markus. I've gotten the book and tracked it down.
I'll post it in my other scroll, where it fits. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 08:19:27
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Size of the Tuigan Horde
I guesstimated the number of 'Tuigan' under Yamun Khahan at 300,000. Reading Horselords and Dragonwall, the largest number I've seen him command at one time is between 215,000-260,000, depending on the size of the Semphar garrison at the time that particular report arrives. This excludes any ordus employed in guarding the borders of his lands and those warriors still at home, defending against the remnants of defeated ordus.
Edit: Analysis of the available data puts the total number of warriors under Yamun Khahan at the Dragonwall at 210,000. Added to that number must be 40,000 warriors under Hubadai that did not manage to join with the main force until at Yenching, 10,000 warriors under 'Prince' Jadaran Khan campaigning in Khazari and 5,000 warriors garrisoning Semphar. Excluding any other garrisons and warriors who are needed to provide at least minimal security to each ordu on the steppes, Yamun Khahan therefore commanded fully 265,000 full-time warriors as he rode against the Shou, incorporated into military units and living outside the economy of the steppes.
Even with this many in the field, Yamun Khahan apparently seriously considered that going back to the steppes to raise another army if he lost at the Dragonwall was a viable option. He might have been boasting, but given that the possibility is discussed as part of a private (and rare) admission that he can be defeated, I doubt that he was.
So 300,000 warriors whose khans pledged to Yamun Khanan isn't an unreasonable guess. On the other hand, I can see that I underestimated the losses of the Tuigan.
They actually lost something in the vicinity of 200,000 warriors in the wars. At least 90,000 in Shou Lung, 70,000 at the Golden Way and a lesser number in other battles. On the other hand, even after the Lake of Tears and a winter of Rashemi guerilla warfare, the Tuigan had 25,000 more warriors in the spring than they took into Thay. So a very large draft of replacements between Szass Tam's exact count and the count of the Witches of Rashemen at the beginning of the next campaigning season.
Edit: I underestimated the losses in Shou Lung and overestimated those in Thesk. The Tuigan actually lost 130,000 men in Shou Lung, leaving only 120,000 warriors to ride away from there. Some of the 'lost' might have become casualties, but still lived to reach the steppes again, but I wouldn't bet on them being many. The Shou might have been almost broken on the battlefield and unable to mount effective cavalry pursuit in any case, but their peasant farmers in Mai Yuan would not have been kindly disposed to wounded Tuigan trying to escape.
After losing approximately 8,000 of their number in two small battles against Thay, almost exactly 100,000 Tuigan warriors invaded Rashemen. Given that they picked up new recruits around the Lake of Mists and the Icerim Mountains, it seems that at least 10,000-20,000 of those who made it back home from Shou Lung did not participate in the western war. No doubt these were men who had taken bad wounds but still managed to keep up with the army in Shou as well as those whose families were not likely to survive winter without them.
Some may only have been granted leave, of course, as there was an enormous influx of new troops in the spring, men who must have ridden from the steppes through Thay or Rashemen to enter Thesk with the main army.
In the invasion of Rashemen, the Tuigan lost few men at first. There are no precise numbers given, but their number is given as 100,000 total both before and after the first months of fighting. I'd put it below 5,000 in losses. Over the winter, at least 5,000 Tuigan lost their lives in ambushes and skirmishes, as well as to the elements. Finally, in the battle of Lake Ashane (or the Lake of Tears), the Tuigan lost some 15,000 men, reducing them to a total of just over 60,000*.
However, shortly after that, when spring arrived, the Tuigan had received enough reinforcements to be able to field an army of 100,000 in Thesk while leaving in place the 25,000 warriors assigned to keeping Rashemen too occupied to be able to resist the Thayans or follow the Tuigan horde and fall on their rear as they faced enemies in Thesk.
This means that they received 40,000 new warriors, which, even if we assume that the ones they left on the steppes before invading Thay mostly came back from leave, still demands that close to 30,000 warriors that were previously not used for any of Yamun Khahan's campaigns were called up. Well, 3,000 of them came from Semphar's garrison and so have been counted before, but that leaves 27,000 that either came from stripping other garrisons and reserve forces or were simply the fruits of a new age cohort growing to maturity.
I thought that the Allegiance of the West had chewed up the Tuigan after Yamun Khahan fell, but I note now that the Faerunian forces did not pursue. This means that apart from the 30,000 Tuigan who fell in the first battle, the losses from the second battle were negliable. Yamun fell with 50 of his attendants, not several thousand as I thought I remembered, which suggests that his Kashik was still mostly intact. The main body of the Tuigan horde was not so much defeated on the field in the second battle as it was tricked so that Azoun IV could bring Khahan to single combat.
While a lot of horses might have been crippled by the illusory ground hiding pit trips, it's implausible to assume that the first rank of a cavalry charge against 15,000 men would concentrate more than 15,000 cavalry in front of them, with the rest arriving in successive lines (standard tactics for any successful cavalry force, precisely to avoid getting the whole force tangled up in case of casualties) or trying to flank.
And these 15,000 would not all arrive at the exact same line at the exact same time. Tuigan are great horsemen and many would have been able to swerve or stop. In addition, while a crippled horse and a bad fall might result in death or serious injury for the rider, the skill, experience and agility of the rider are vital variables in how likely this is. All told, even if 4,000-8,000 horses fell into the traps, this wouldn't be likely to cause more than 2,000-4,000 permanent casualties** to the Tuigan, who rode to war with at least two spare horses per man (and who would have extra spares from the previous days casualties).
That should leave ca 65,000-70,000 veterans of the Horde to make their way back, in addition to the ca 25,000 in Rashemen. No doubt the Rashemi force was quick to abandon their siege and ride to the steppes. The Rashemi are unlikely to have interfered with their attempt to leave, being war-weary already and lacking a cavalry force to give credible pursuit at any rate.
On the other hand, analysis of the last chapters of Crusade indicates that the actual strength of the Tuigan who kept ranks and made it back might have been nearer 50,000 warriors. It is not mentioned where the rest went and the inference is that they became casualties in the battle, but given that many Tuigan remained behind in Thesk for years and Rashemen, Thesk and Thay were forced to expend a lot of effort and blood in getting rid of bands of Tuigan raiders, I'm going to assume that 10,000-15,000 Tuigan stayed behind and/or later fell in skirmishes with Rashemi forces and mercenaries hired to open the Golden Way.
This new data indicates that apart from men who became casualties, but somehow made it home by other means than as part of the retreating armies from Shou Lung and Thesk, around 75,000 'Tuigan' came home from Yamun Khahan's foreign wars. That's from some 300,000 who were engaged at various times.
In addition to those would have been some minimal garrisons back home, of whom we know about the 10,000 warriors subduing Khazari lords under 'Prince' Jadaran Khan and the 2,000 Tuigan in Semphār.
Assuming (in the absence of better data) that tribal losses were distributed about evenly and without reference to post-war politics, Hubadai ought to eventually inherit ca 60% of these veterans, based on the list of supporter tribes. Assuming a correlation between loyalty to Yamun's heir and fighting to the death in his last battle (as opposed to e.g. a reverse correlation of the worst affected tribes rejecting any supratribal rule) and/or some opposition even among veterans from those tribes whose Khans support Hubadai, let's say he ends up with around 30,000 veterans.
It is canon, meanwhile, that at least one other son than Hubadai was with the army and survived the battles. Also that Chanar Ong Kho still lived and was gathering strong support among those who had resented the Khahan's rule.
Without any firm evidence, I'll place Tomke in command of three tumen*** in Rashemen. He appears to be Yamun Khahan's eldest son and trusted to operate independently. In addition, the tasks he is assigned supports an interpretation that he is adept at raiding and terrorising the enemy. Given that Yamun Khahan claimed to be holding him in reserve before riding on Khazari and was joined with significant numbers of troops from all directions just before invading Shou Lung, I'll assume he was with the army since the Dragonwall.
It also makes sense that if Yamun Khahan sent for reinforcements from the steppe that one of his sons would have gone and taken command of them. That could have been either Hubadai or Tomke, since 'Prince' Jadaran Khan was never relieved from his duties in Khazari and the only other named son of Yamun Khahan was mentioned only to die. Besides, if Tuigan law is based on Turkic-Mongol law, it seems rather clear that there existed many sons born to concubines who were valued only if they showed promise.
Hubadai, as the only son of a 'Chief Wife'/'First Empress' among them would have been the only lawful heir. 'Prince' Jadaran Khan appears by title and the conversations of other characters about him to have been well-born even if he was not the son of the Khahan's First Empress and he seemed at least theoretically acceptable as Khahan. Tomke, being the eldest but never mentioned as a potential heir or given prestigious (as opposed to difficult) leadership positions, is likely to have been the son of a very low-ranking concubine, perhaps even of embarrassing blood**** .
I'm guessing that Tomke, blood or no blood, was able to retain command over his three tumen while heading home, though he may not have been able to trust them all in battle against another potential heir. On seeing that the remains of the Theskan army were larger than his own force, so even if they fought, his odds were poor, I imagine that Tomke rode to the lands in the east, where he'd been campaigning for some years (and where his origin may lie).
I doubt more than 10,000-15,000 of his men followed him. Tomke was apparently capable, but he lacked the dash and drive of his father or even his younger brothers, as Horselords makes clear. Nevertheless, many have proven endlessly ambitious and tireless haters without having more than a second-rate talent to their name. He could no doubt recruit with some success among the eastern ordus by promising warriors loot from Shou Lung, now without a wall and fighting another enemy after a war that had left them all but supine.
Chanar Ong Kho***** would have claimed the title of Khahan by right of experience, prowess and reputation. Backing him would be a number of Tuigan khans (most likely Chanar's own clan, of which is father Taidju Khan was chief, is one of the Tuigan clans) and the Khassidi, a people he defeated in a campaign fought without Yamun Khahan and whose surrender was made to Chanar and not Yamun.
A lot of Naican might also follow him and a case might even be made that Chanar is Naican. I incline against this view, given that Taidju Khan who is Chanar's father apparently commands his own people and the Naican are mentioned seperately, as being under To'orl. Also, Chanar speaks about fighting 'with the help of the Naican', but calls himself a 'prince of the Tuigan', which I think implies that he considers himself Tuigan and not Naican.
Edit: Thank you, tiny throw-away line in the beginning of The Horde Campaign that onlly makes sense when interpreted along with Yamun's story in Horselords! The Tuigan clan that Taidju Khan led and Chanar has presumably inherited is called the Basymits. He's Basymit Chanar, granted the title 'Ong Kho' by Yamun as he becomes Khahan of the Tuigan in 1335 DR and later becoming Chanar Khan of the Basymit clan on the death of his father. As the last title is somewhat less prestigious than being the Right Hand/Governor-Prince of the Khahan of all the Tuigan, he rarely used it.
In any case, I imagine that he calls himself either Chanar Ong Khahan or just plain Chanar Khahan by now. I like Chanar Ong Khahan, actually, as Ong was used alongside qaghan/khan/etc. in the real world and fits well.
Chanar would no doubt have fought Hubadai some time after the Second Battle of the Golden Way, once he'd made sure of enough khans, but Hubadai leaving would have prevented the decisive battle he wanted. Even so, I am sure that Chanar ended up with at least 25,000-30,000 veterans, since he'd be able to appeal to those of Tomke's army who didn't fancy his leadership and some of the younger men from the ordus of the unaligned khans.
Since it is canon that Hubadai chose the years immediately after his father's death to travel Faerun in secret, but was nevertheless able to successfully declare himself Khahan upon coming home, he must have made some good preparations. I expect he asked the khans of ordus and tribes who indicated a willingness to obey the law and acclaim him heir of Yamun Khahan to go home to their yurts, rebuild and avoid any commitments one way or another toward any other claimants.
His father's Yunichaar, not mentioned in any of the six detailed descriptions of battles given in The Horde Campaign, not to mention never mentioned in the Empires trilogy, is unlikely to have been with the army at all. It makes sense that Yamun Khahan would have had to leave at least some force to guard his wives and young children, not to mention the wealth of Quaraband, while he was at war. And foreign-born slave soldiers of fanatical loyalty sound perfect, because not only are they capable troops, but they don't resent being left out of the chance for glory in the war as much as Tuigan warriors.
I expect that in command of them was someone on whom Hubadai felt he could rely****** and that he asked this paragon of loyalty to take refuge with Quaraband in the lands of loyal khans until he came back. Incredibly, it looks like that succeeded, and neither Chanar 'Khahan' nor any other son of Yamun Khahan was able to get himself acclaimed Khahan in the three years that passed with Hubadai away. Nor did anyone massacre his Yunichaar.
Tomke no doubt expected a trap from Hubadai and dared not believe that he was gone, squandering his chance while he slowly built a power base in the east and raided Shou Lung. But it was a very poor showing from Chanar Ong Kho, whose poor judgment in politics was not supposed to be any reflection on his military instincts. Yamun Khahan rated him as the best of his commanders and maybe even better than himself at battlefield trickery, a 'fox on the battlefield'. We must perchance assume a political miscalculation, i.e. Chanar expected that Hubadai had fled for good and that if he covered himself with enough glory, the Yunichaar and recalcitrant chiefs would join with him.
I'll speculate more in another post about what Chanar might have been doing for these three years.
The numbers above make any surving warriors at home more numerically significant in perspective than I initially believed. It also means that by 1373 DR, both Yaļmmunnahar and the indepenent tribes will have access to a pool of potential warriors far exceeding their veterans of the Horde. I think I'll examine the probable age distribution of the steppes around Yamun Khahan's wars and the subsequent demographics in a seperate post, to find out exactly how things stand some 10-15 years.
*In addition to the 5,000 besieging Citadel Rashemen and the 20,000 dispatched all over Rashemen to forage, to loot and to draw out its armies to respond to threats that had long since ridden away.
**Men so wounded that they could not even be tied into the saddle of their other horse, to make it back home. The total lack of pursuit would have made this feasible for any but the most devastating injuries. Even injuries likely to render a Tuigan warrior hors d' combat for months might not be enough to prevent a tough man from hanging on a saddle if the alternative is capture (and by their code of behaviour, either death or worse).
***By this time, the ideal composition of the Tuigan horde did not represent its true reality. Tumen that had been heavily engaged often went down to as little as five thousand, with any that got smaller than five thousand being combined to bring a new tumen up to strength.
****Foreign nobility or even just 'high-class' concubines from the lands around are not embarrassing, but being descended from a Taangan family sunk low enough to be slaves would be. So would being from a mother who was raped in battle, as opposed to being taken as a prize and married (or given as part of a peace treaty). If the family of the mother had betrayed the Khan, it would also qualify for embarrassing enough to account for why no one ever mentions Tomke as a potential heir.
*****By Tuigan naming patterns, the clan name (counted from a matrilinear ancestor with the status of 'Chief Wife') appears to come first and then a personal name. The clan name is used only on very formal occasions (we don't know if it would also be appropriate for more intimate settings, but it is at any rate not used between friends or colleagues). If any name follows the personal name that is the only name most are known by, it is either a nick-name or a title. Yamun Khahan was thus named Hoekun Yamun, rose to become Yamun Khan and later Yamun Khahan. We know that Chanar is the personal name of Chanar Ong Kho, because he is once refered to as Chanar Khan. This means that Ong Kho is either a nickname or a title. 'Ong' was a title of rulership among real-world Turkic-Mongols, higher than 'Khan', but lower than 'Khagan'. 'Kho' is not likely to be from an Altaic root at all (except in Korean and Japanese, where it might result from Chinese influence), but given the relationship between the languages of Shou Lung and Khazari, for example, equating it with the real-world 'kho' = 'governor' might be viable. In that case, 'Ong Kho' would mean 'Prince and Regent' or something like that, i.e. marking him as the most favored of the Khahan's nobles and commanders, apart from his sons. Alternatively, 'Ong' might come from 'Onggar' or 'right hand' and 'Kho' might refer to 'feet, motion', making Chanar's title approximately 'Roving Right Hand', signifying the trust Yamun once had for him and justifying the fact that he apparently fought whole wars without input from Yamun Khahan in the past.
******Most likely someone of less-than-gentle birth and no glorious reputation, chosen for loyalty rather than tactical acumen. Without the patronage of the Khahan, he would be nothing and he would have no chance at all of becoming Khahan himself, as no one would support him. He may even be a slave himself. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Mar 2012 16:07:53 |
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