| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:08:04
|
| -How viable is that number, realistically looking at things? If there are 300,000 troops, you also figure there is a semi-sizable number of women, children, and the elderly as well. Say that makes a total of 500,000 living on the steppes. Add to that their aversion to magic, and nomadic lifestyles (numerous, numerous horses to graze, etc.), is that a remotely feasible number, looking at things critically instead of, "Eh, it's a fantasy world, it doesn't need to make sense" (as seen in that Cormyr lineage thread, for example)? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Mar 2012 20:14:03 |
 |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 20:48:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-How viable is that number, realistically looking at things? If there are 300,000 troops, you also figure there is a semi-sizable number of women, children, and the elderly as well. Say that makes a total of 500,000 living on the steppes. Add to that their aversion to magic, and nomadic lifestyles (numerous, numerous horses to graze, etc.), is that a remotely feasible number, looking at things critically instead of, "Eh, it's a fantasy world, it doesn't need to make sense" (as seen in that Cormyr lineage thread, for example)?
Well, for 300,000 warriors, assuming that the population is relatively stable, you need far more than 200,000 women and children.
As noted earlier, a plausible number for that many would be 1,500,000 steppe nomads in total. 1,000,000 is the absolute minimum it could have been, but that would have been pushing plausibility.
On the other hand, given that the territory that the nomads can range over is approximately 1,500,000 square miles, this puts their population density somewhere between the absolute lowest for hunter-gatherers and 1/4th of modern Mongolia.
Given that modern Mongolia is, on average, worse land* than the Endless Wastes and that herders usually live in more dense communities than hunter-gatherers, it wouldn't be implausible to double that population and still remain within the bounds of the perfectly reasonable.
On the other hand, that's how many could live there in relative comfort without adopting any new technology or methods. The reason for the low number of only 1,500,000 before Yamun Khahan's wars would be found in the endemic warfare and raiding of the tribes, which not only kills the participating men, but leaves many women and children without providers and many smaller ordus without animals to sustain life.
So the people of the Taangan were depopulated before the wars and are going to be worse off when Hubadai comes home from them. Which is why it makes perfect sense that he'd want to change their way of life for something less harsh and unforgiving.
*The elevation and the fact that it's completely landlocked, much further away from open water than the Hordelands of Faerun, mean that the best land of Mongolia is about equal to the normal steppeland, but areas such as the Great Amber Steppes and strips close to mountains and even the coast of the Yal Tengri (cold, but moderated by the sea) are more livable. Also, there is no evidence that the climatic extremes on the Hordelands are as severe as in Mongolia, which is one of the primary reasons it's almost impossible to survive there. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2012 : 12:34:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The size of the steppes and surrounding environs is a lot larger than I've always given them credit for (though, they are presented as on the large side on maps, mind you).
The supercontinent of Faerun, Kara-Tur and Zakhara is large. Toril is 12% bigger than Earth and this supercontinent is at least 60-70% of the landmass on Toril.
I eyeball it as being larger than Eurasia and North Africa combined.
I always get a laugh out of estimates like the population of Faerun being 70 million. Considering the evidence of widespread urbanisation, high yield of developed farmland, a degree of economic specialisation on a national level that in our world post-dated mercantilism and as a corollary of this, the obvious cosmopolitan trade network** that links all human communities of Faerun in the 1300s DR, any attempt to apply medieval economics to the Realms falls flat.
Since the medieval world remained the medieval world only as long as capital accumulation apart from real estate was difficult, extensive trade with on that scale and efficiency shoots any resemblence to a medieval society down in tatters. There are independent cities whose subsidence needs are met almost entirely with imported foodstuffs from regions that specialise in food production with magical assistance, and as a result, food is manufactured extremely efficiently. As anyone will note who cares to compare the cost of food staples with the cost of metal** or any kind of skilled labour.
Fortunately, Ed doesn't seem to be aiming to portray a medieval society, featuring as he does the social struggle between merchants and aristocratic landowners as a theme in many works. The Realms seems quite deliberately to exist at a level of technology achieved with fairly integrated magic and, thus, is entirely its own and not precisely analoguous to any Earth society. But if we were to assign the setting to a 'tech level' based on economic factors and the consequent societal processes, it wouldn't be far wrong to peg it close to the 19th century.
This also means that the surface of Faerun alone could support at minimum 300 million people (with a theoretical carrying capacity at their current technology levels of far more than that), with Shou Lung and Hu' Lung probably supporting even more. The Underdark appears to be a huge ecosystem with no equivalents on Earth, so I won't speculate about that.
Why aren't all these people listed in products? Well, no supplement I've read claims to count all the people who live on land not claimed by any organised nation, and, in any event, the 70 million claim is derived from adding together the listed population for only the major powers, even when such populations might well include only full 'citizens' that are counted in a census, not any foreign traders, adventurers, caravan guards and suchlike, nor, perhaps, slaves, foreign labourers or even, in the most extreme cases, anyone not owning land.
Most importantly, the 'uncivilised' races are many, many times more numerous than the 'civilised' ones. Even though a lot of the orcs and goblins that occasionally gather in hordes and fall upon civilised lands will for the most part counted in the 'Underdark' ecosystem, living as many of them seem to do in caves and warrens, no doubt such creatures also hunt and scavenge on the surface, using up a lot of the 'spare' carrying capacity.
At best tangentially related, but I thought of it and it has to do with recent events on the steppes, I very much dislike when authors who don't know the Realms well try to transplant 'medieval' stories there wholesale. It doesn't work very well. As an example, it jarred me a lot to hear the lords of Cormyr's cities pledge hundreds and thousands of 'their' troops to the King's cause against the Tuigan, ostensibly in lieu of their own service in his armies.
Cormyr isn't a feudal monarchy. Nobles aren't allowed private armies. Even if they were, the lords of the cities of Cormyr are not representatives of its hereditary noble classes, they are appointed officials of the King and command Purple Dragons sworn to and paid by the Crown.
The appropriate analogy for Cormyr's noble families is not the barons of feudal England, the most powerful of whom might have incomes and field armies larger than the Kings, but rather the aristocracy of a centralised monarchy like Tudor England, where nobles have certain rights and a lot of prestige, but are not a 'state-within-the-state' allowed to field armies that do not answer to the King.
On the other hand, I can easily believe, and in fact, would argue for were it not already present, that societies that are not part of the extensive network of trade which enables efficient economic specialisation are effectively at a much lower 'tech level'. Individuals there might be able to obtain technological artifacts made by the most advanced craftsmen, but the economy of these places will still be driven by much more 'medieval' and even 'Migrations period' factors.
And in those cases, we get 'primitive' societies like the Tuigan existing next to far richer and more 'advanced' societies.*** This also means that their population density will be only a fraction of the more efficient food-production societies or those who can afford to trade with them, but when your territory is huge, even sparse people add up.
This also neatly explains how 200,000 Tuigan in their first huge battle rode roughshod over a Shou regular army of 300,000 and noble armies of almost that much, but 100,000 Tuigan (of which many must have been veterans) were slaughtered by 30,000 Allegiance troops. The Shou army is out-of-date and neglected, while the soldiers of the Allegiance had access to such technological**** force multipliers as solid metal plates being cheap enough to equip a lot of them with light and strong body armour, as well as having a coordinated group of mages providing intelligence, command & control, battlespace shaping and precision strike capability.
*Using sailing technology which had reached late 16th century equivalents on Earth by ca 1300 DR and continues advancement at that pace, to judge by such advanced proto-types as Deudermont's Sea Sprite and the Osprey in Ravens Bluff, both 19th century clippers, the absolute pinnacle of sailing ship design. Shipbuilding in the Realms, whether deliberately or accidentally by certain designers and authors, has been canonically established as being lightyears ahead of anything in the medieval world.
**Itself far cheaper in the Realms than historical Earth, due to the greater ease of mining when magic is available, as well as the possibility of bringing the more valuable metals from other planes. Pretty much the only thing that is expensive in the Realms are labour costs, which is pretty normal for a world where the utilisation of resources and production methods are made efficient by magic and by regional specialisation. What has the most impact on the final price of finished product is the same thing that usually affects cost the most in our world. How valuable is the time of the people who have to prepare it for you?
***Incidentally, unless Shou Lung greatly improves trade routes, both internally and to the rest of the world, as well as moving away from their assumption of automatic cultural and technological superiority, they'll fall ever further behind Faerun. Any advantage that Shou Lung previously held has been made up and surpassed and Shou Lung needs to start building fleets and trading extensively with Zakhara, as well as circumnavigating it and trading with Chult, Amn, Calimshan and the Shining South.
****In the Realms, magic is technology. It's less democratic than technology usable by everyone, but that only limits its spread, it doesn't alter the fact that it has precisely the same effects on economics and warfare as having higher technology does. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 02:29:02
|
Caliph Abu Bakr
I had always gone by the description given for him in the Horde Boxed Set, as a lackluster son of a great father, with a much higher opinion of his military skill than his successes warranted.
On the other hand, the fact that he was statted as an 11th level Fighter implied, at least, that he was lackluster in comparison to his great father and inspired generals like those of Yamun Khahan, not, perhaps, in comparison with all national leaders. Add to that the fact that he was only 28 years of age, but had already managed to cleanly and competently remove what appears to have been his father's Regent*, Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib, and Abu Bakr begins to seem like at least marginally competent.
If the Caliph was not an innate genius or natural athlete, he seemed at least to have learned a great deal of skill at arms from his father and fine teachers and while he had some fatal misconceptions about warfare and managed to gut a fine army by not keeping it adequately insulated from politics, he seemed to have a solid grasp on the art of survival and preservation of his own power base.
I had previously marvelled at how Caliph Abu Bakr came through what seemed a very unfavourable situation smelling like roses and with his own power and the sovereignity of his nation both apparently secure. Now, I note that not only did the ca 12 years since his appearance in the Horde materials and the Empires trilogy have him crawl out from under Tuigan suzerainty and into a bright new era, he also apparently gained five levels as a Fighter in the meantime. He is now a 16th level Fighter, which is in the region of the level of Hubadai and his father Yamun Khahan before him.
Now in his early forties, Caliph Abu Bakr, while perhaps no more of an athlete or brilliant scholar, must be accounted as one of the highest level warriors in all the lands between Faerun and Kara-Tur. I suppose a lot of explanations can be advanced for how he rates such a high Fighter level, but the one I think I prefer myself is that in a reign characterised by a series of indolent miscalculations that land him in terrible danger and slyly inspired maneuvering that gets him out of it, he's learned from his mistakes and never made the same one twice.
I'm convinced that Hubadai Khahan was, in 1363 DR, truly determined to gain the trust of his neighbours instead of attempting to conquer them. I base this mostly on the idea that if he had wanted to conquer Semphar and Khazari again in that time, it would not only have been well within his means, but also politically to his benefit. The only reason not to do it would have been ideological, i.e. a desire to be more like a just, beloved king such as Azoun IV than a feared conqueror.
If he was so determined, I think that Caliph Abu Bakr was able to promise a trade allegiance and favourable exchange rates on certain acricultural necessities and gain in return a promise form Hubadai to defend Semphar in the event of an attack by nomads who reject Yaimunnahar, as well as an undertaking by Hubadai Khahan to regularly patrol the dangerous area for caravans between Khazari and Semphar.
Most importantly, I think that the Caliph was able to get Hubadai Khahan to formalise what had been the fact for several years now, that the 2,000 Tuigan left in Semphar would become a part of Semphar's military and train up several changs of mailed Semphari horse archer cavalry.
In fact, I believe that Caliph Abu Bakr started to rebuild the Semphari military as soon as the major part of the Tuigan garrison had left his lands. The threat from Solon would be such an obvious reason to do so that even the most autocratic and stiff-necked Tuigan noyan left in charge could not object. As satrap of Yamun Khahan, the Caliph was after all responsible for maintaining the integrity of this part of the Khaganate.
The authority of the Caliph under the Tuigan was, of course, severely curtailed when the old Regent, Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib, who had ruled in his name until forcibly removed by the Abu Bakr long after he came of age. I imagine that immediately upon starting the rumours about the Tuigan having forced him into all his unpopular decisions, the Caliph took care to include inflammatory references to the perfidity of that inveterate servant of the Tuigan, Ali al-Mutasib. By 1361 DR at the latest, he would have been in a position to make a very plausible claim to the commander of the remaining garrison that in order for him to be able to hold Semphar as a satrap in trust for any heir of Yamun Khahan, it was necessary to remove Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib.
Of course, that worthy was by all accounts a seasoned plotter and intriguer himself and he would have seen the writing on the wall well before. Well aware that he lacked enough royal blood to risk having the people choose between him and the Caliph, as well as knowing well enough that by publicly siding with the Tuigan he had squandered almost all goodwill he ever had in Semphari politics, the Atabeg would have been faced with having to look to some foreign land for sanctuary.
With Hubadai lost since the Second Battle of the Golden Way, no amount of rumours of his survival or his planned return to the steppes to claim his inheritance would have been likely to convince al-Mutasib to place all his eggs in a hypothetical baseket. If he was not in direct contact with Hubadai, he would look elsewhere for his safe haven. If Hubadai travelled alone in Faerun, his concubines would have been left with whomever had command of the Yunichaar that once belonged to Yamun Khahan. There al-Mutasib could find his daughter, Dura. On the other hand, he could hardly expect to pry her from the hands of ten thousand slave-warrior fanatics by himself and it is not likely he would expect much hope for advancement in a travelling harem guarded by an army of slaves.
No, I would expect Atabeg Ali al-Mutasib to try a variation on an old trick. Last time he tried to use the Tuigan to help him get back the power he wanted, now he tries to get the Mulhorandi to do the same. He'll go to Skuld. He might travel to Thay first, seeking news of Hubadai, but he'll end up in Skuld, trying to convince the Pharoah to retake Semphar and make him governor in the Pharoah's name.
Meanwhile, Caliph Abu Bakr, now free of the baleful influence of his uncle**, would have campaigned with the Tuigan noyan left in charge of Semphar against bands of undead out of Solon***. Recruiting among those veterans who still lived and had not been conscripted for the Tuigan Grand Army, he would have taken care to choose a new crop of officers of a birth humble or provincial enough to be awed by the Caliphate and prepared to regard him as near-divine. From the fact that he is still alive in five levels higher, I conclude that he proved able to learn and learn well from the Tuigan noyan who must have done much of the real generaling at first.
Given a decade of friendly relationship with Yaimunnahar after Hubadai came back, I imagine that Caliph Abu Bakr is busily trying to rebuild Semphari fortunes. While trade with Shou Lung is still only a trickle, Abu Bakr was no doubt able to earn back much of the tribute he paid into Tuigan coffers by selling Hubadai everything he needed to found a modern realm on the Taan. While Yaimunnahar still exports little of value to 'civilised' folk, Semphari traders are no doubt able to make a small profit from commerce with the fledgling realm.
Lack of monetary reserves would be the primary obstacle in the way of rebuilding the Semphari military. I imagine that as Semphari mail and good steel weapons would sell at a premium to Yaimunnahar, it would be hard to re-equip the military at the same time. No doubt Caliph Abu Bakr has subtly encouraged his two thousand Tuigan to spend part of what Hubadai pays them to garb themselves in glittering mail, even magical mail for the more cosmopolititan among them.
As for his re-emerging local army, I expect that so far, it is small and lightly equipped, with the exception of any armaments that were successfully hidden during the occupation. But to make up for this, what cavalry the Semphari now have is trained to the standard of the Tuigan garrison, as well as being educated in the theory of combined arms and high strategy.
Caliph Abu Bakr no doubt has had ample opportunity to repent of his treatment of the mages in his old military and would try his best to entice them back. As an added bonus, they require no equipment from national armories.
Sappers and siege engineers would pay for themselves, in being hired out to his ever-useful allies, the Tuigan, in building Kourmira.
The infantry is probably the weakest. There is no reason to expect them to be better trained than before the war and the lack of money for heavy armour would hurt them more than the cavalry, because they can't adopt harassing tactics like light horse archers can. Still, you can't defend fortresses or take and hold ground without infantry, so they are necessary. Also, Caliph Abu Bakr has, in my opinion, learned his lesson about the necessity for joint operations and smooth cooperation between branches of the military.
He's probably still searching for good instructors for his infantry, as well as trying to raise enough money to equip a few good niqoms with good mail. Nothing like a well-armoured professional military.
In the long term, Semphar looks good to have a strong army and solid (if self-interested) government. As soon as Yaimunnahar starts to export something of real value or the Silk Road starts to bring wealth from Shou Lung again, about five years of tidy revenue ought to be enough to finish rebuilding the Semphari military. And Caliph Abu Bakr, if perhaps not the son that al-Hamid, the Lion of Semphar, would have wanted, is definitely no longer a 'lackluster son' of a greater sire. He is his own thing and if it is not a glamorous and admirable role, it is still more than many other national leaders can say.
*And unwilling to give up his power.
**By courtesy, at least, and I suspect that he may well be a maternal uncle. It would account for the elaborate means of comfortable exile instead of a simple execution. Refusal to step down as Regent is indubitably treason and warrants execution in almost any jurisdiction. There has to be some reason for allowing the sentence to be commuted to a benign form of home confinement.
***While Raja Ambuchar Devayam didn't seem to invade Semphar in force, I can't imagine that he was all that concerned with whether any bands of ravening ghouls happened to pop over the borders between duties. If nothing else, I imagine that he would have been quite happy to release self-replicating undead in all directions if it would interfere with the ability or willingness of any power to come to the rescue of Ra-Khati, Katakoro, Shou Lung and Khazari. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 11 Mar 2012 02:30:28 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 17:25:53
|
The volcanic eruption of Solon
Despite Brian R. James' kind explanation, I find the mystery of the volcanic eruption in 1360 DR as inexplicable as ever.
It is noted in the list of events for the year before the invasion of Ra-Khati by Tan Chin and his undead legions.
A careful reading of the trilogy of adventures these entries are based, on, however, features a volcanic eruption only as the consequence of adventurers destroying Tan Chin's phylactery and thus exiling him from the Realms.
Even if we were to concede the GHotR sequence of events in 1360 DR as being scrambled and that the eruption was actually meant to post-date the invasion, that still leaves Tan Chin 'alive' and very active for two years after the eruption that was supposedly caused by his defeat.
Tan Chin was clearly not defeated in 1360 DR, or he wouldn't have been able to defeat Ra-Khati, Katakoro settlemets, the western provinces of Shou-Lung and Khazari in the years after that.
Also, the adventure trilogy clearly takes place in 1359 DR, not 1360 DR. Events in it coincide with the 1359 DR Tuigan invasion of Khazari and the 1359 DR Tuigan campaign against Shou Lung. The battle between the Solonese undead and the defenders of Ra-Khati can be dated as taking place very shortly after Eleint 9, 1359 DR, when Yamun Khahan's army left Shou Lung through Khazari. In fact, the outcome, in the adventure, depends on the speed with which the characters manage to accomplish their tasks and whether they manage to meet the Tuigan at Alashan on Eleint 12-13 and lead a force of Hubadai's men to the aid of Ra-Khati.
The distance is about a four day's ride, at the killing pace set by Hubadai and the Tuigan arrive only after the battle is well in train.
There is simply no way that this battle took place in 1360 DR, as by then Hubadai, Yamun Khahan, Batu Min Ho and Chanar Ong Kho, all important figures in the adventure, were already in Rashemen. In fact, they were in Thay only fifty days after these events.
On the other hand, if no adventurers defeated Tan Chin, he would have spent 1360 DR finishing his conquest of Ra-Khati and the Katakoro plateu. That's true enough. As long as no one suggests that he did not raise his armies until that year.
|
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:27:39
|
Correct - I had similar discussion with Brian, and he told me he decided that the adventurers were 'unsuccessful' (thus invalidating three very good modules, which is why designers never before went the 'failed attempt' route before).
So if they failed, Tan-Chin can then later invade Guge (he never invaded Shou-Lung... Guge has never been part of Shou-Lung... no-one wants Guge, ts considered 'cursed'). However, if the adventurers failed, the volcanic eruption should not have happened 9as you have pointed out).
While I was still working on this stuff, I resolved it by saying Tan-Chin (Abuchar Devayam) replaced one of the 4 artifacts in the pocket-dimensions with a fake (he is a very clever planer, after all). He did this in the event of the adventurer's success, in order to fool Chih Shih (which worked). When the adventurers thought they succeeded (destroying all 4 artifacts), a contingency-effect created by Tan-Chin set-off the 'eruption' (which was mostly just illusion to cover his trickery) - the actual damage was very localized (just the area the PCs were in), and fairly easy to repair once things settled down.
Tan Chin 'jumped' into one of the adventurers when they thought him destroyed, and he made his escape along with the party. In a pyro-technic display, he teleports his former body (Ambuchar) to his secret hide-away in the Jhorat Citadel (to remain in stasi until eeded).
This allows for several things - it appeared Tan Chin was defeated (thus keeping the integrity/playability of the modules intact), and they witnessed an eruption (as described in the GHotR). Tan Chin really survived to invade Guge (and was defeated yet-again... but also not permanently... why waste a good McGuffin?). An adventurer was 'possessed' by tan Chin - a DM can use this if he wants, or simply say that Tan-Chin vacates at the first opportunity (leaving the PC very bewildered). It also leaves one of the Black artifacts of Imaskar in-play, which DMs can also use, or not (and is also left undetailed, so the DM can choose which he wants to leave).
It also allows the PCs to keep the Stone Scepter of Shih in-play. Because Tan-Chin was not truly defeated, the Stone Scepter would remain in its normal form (and not become the Cursed Berserker -2 as specified in the adventure). However, one can assume in most cases it will be discarded by the aPCs as Shihg had instructed: In that case, tit could still be enclosed in the rock in that chamber in Solon (I wouldn't have Tan-Chin recover it.. unless it was part of a new adventure), or, it could have been destroyed by the molten lava (I said the localized stuff would be real), but since Tan-Chin wasn't defeated, it re-forms elsewhere in The Realms (since artifacts cannot be destroyed permanently unless specific conditions are met... and those weren't if you go with my explanation).
So that should explain-away the inconsistencies, and provide at least three new plot-devices for DMs to use (the Stone Scepter can even reappear in Waterdeep, etc, which is a great way to launch a new string of eastern adventures).
I just want to know why Hubadai didn't come to Bhrokiti's rescue... or did he? 
EDIT:
As for the inconsistencies in time/travel, other 'fixes' were applied to the GhotR, and I would simply say all of the events (of the modules) happened when they were supposed to have happened, in 1359 DR.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 18:35:27 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:42:18
|
I was working on a 'corrected' version of the K-T timeline (merging it with the Horde material, Imaskari stuff, Raumathar & Narfel, the Utter East, Zakhara, etc), but then the GhotR came-out and Brian just kinda... I don't know... did what he thought was best?
I would just consider any of the later dating (in regards to the East) in that tome to be an "estimate by Faerunian scholars" of the events that transpired. All of the modules had to have occurred during the first novel in the series (Horselords). Unfortunately, the novel covering that exact same period of time in that same region does not mention any of those events (pretty poor planning, on TSR's part).
EDIT:
Just re-read your other post - the events of the modules take place BEFORE the events of the invasion of Shou-Lung (in the first novel, when he captured Semphar). It begins with Hubadai looking for an alternate route (which is weird, considering his dad was already working his way through Khazari around that time). As the modules progress (the 2nd & 3rd ones), Yamun Kahan has invaded Shou-Lung - it was during that time period that the 2nd & 3rd modules take place, before he turned around and decided to attack Rashemen (his re-crossing the steppes is never covered by any novels - it just occurs between novels)
Ergo, the ending of the modules occurs right around the time he has finished in Shou and re-enters the Steppes.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 19:16:06 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:51:45
|
To clarify, I'm not objecting to the idea that the adventurers failed. Reading over the adventures, in order to succeed, a very specific string of coincidences and heroic acts had to come together. A tiny misstep anywhere would spell failure.
What I principally found odd was that the first reference to the events of the adventures was the last thing that happened, chronologically.
On the other hand, maintaining the integrity of the published adventures as well as the reference in GHotR is possible.
We simply assume that the reference to Tan Chin assembling an army of undead and invading Ra-Khati in 1360 DR refers to his third attempt to invade that kingdom.
The army he raised in 1359 DR failed to cross the chain bridge because of the actions of some unnamed adventurers and Hubadai Orlak with his two tumen of Tuigan warriors.
Those unnamed adventurers then parted in friendship with the Tuigan, who rode to Thay and into history, and planned an expedition into Solon to destroy the evil lich for once and all. After much hardship, they believed that they had succeeded. At the turning of the year between 1359-1360 DR, they caused the eruption noted in GhotR and made it out again alive.
Exiunt omnes, pursued by a bear.
However, Tan Chin was not permanently destroyed, just worried about the Stone Scepter of Shih and unwillng to test his powers against it quite yet. Once he was sure that the adventurers carrying that damnable item were safely away, he intstructed his undead legions to rise again and marched on Ra-Khati once again.
Easy conquest, on to the Katakoro plateu to take the remnants of Guge and various ruins of Imaskar and Anok-Imaskar. Wintering there to loot ancient ruins. In the next spring, onwards into Shou Lung, sacking, burning and killing all sent against them and 'recruiting' them into his armies. At the end of the campaigning season of 1361 DR, seizing Khazari to plunder its store of Anok-Imaskari artifacts that Tan Chin alone now knew how to find.
The adventurers with the Stone Scepter presumably heard about this all and were not amused. Tan Chin, meanwhile, probably had all the new magic he thought he'd need to counter the Stone Scepter of Shih.
At some point in 1362 DR, things come to a head and the final conflict occurs under Skarou in Khazari, in ancient catacombs. That's not all that far away from where Thakos would have been located, so it's not an implausible location for a necropolis where artificers had chambers prepared for eternal rest, accomplished with arcane magic to escape the tyranny of gods who presumed to judge mortals, of course.
Tan Chin comes off second best in that conflict. Of course, it is entirely up to the DM how permanent his defeat is or how the unnamed heroes emerge from it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 18:56:29
|
Brian already told me he assumed the adventurers did fail when he wrote that (which I found as strange as you are finding it).
I edited my above post - I didn't quite understand what you were getting at the first time I read it.
The events of the modules mostly took place during the second novel, while Yamun was busy in Shou. They start immeditaely following his defeat of Semphar (1st novel) and just as he is looking for a 'back door' into Shou Lung (which makes you wonder why he bothered with the Dragonwall at all). They end just as Shou Lung is defeated, and he turns his attentions to the West (the long period between novels 2 & 3). Since the adventures take place during the entire shou-campaign, I would say they had more then ample time to do everything they did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 18:58:00 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:00:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All of the modules had to have occurred during the first novel in the series (Horselords). Unfortunately, the novel covering that exact same period of time in that same region does not mention any of those events (pretty poor planning, on TSR's part).
While Hubadai's first meeting with the unnamed adventurers does occur during Horselords, it is not especially strange that it is not mentioned by Koja of Khazari. After all, he doesn't meet Hubadai until after the events of that novel and thus would have no way of hearing his story.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just re-read your other post - the events of the modules take place BEFORE the events of the invasion of Shou-Lung (in the first novel, when he captured Semphar). It begins with Hubadai looking for an alternate route (which is weird, considering his dad was already working his way through Khazari around that time).
The Tuigan army in the first and second modules is the army with which Hubadai took Semphar and which he is bringing to his father. He had orders to go through the Katakoro Shan and fall on Khazari from the less protected east side, in case that the Tuigan proved unable to press through the fortresses of the passes in the west.
Had Khazari not surrendered after the first battle, Hubadai would have been able to savage their defensive posture. It was a masterful stroke of strategy and shows that both father and son were strategists, not just full-steam-ahead-and-damn-the-consequences warlords.
Not having a contingency plan for anything less than perfect success is a bad idea in military strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As the modules progress 9the 2nd & 3rd ones), Yamun Kahan has invaded Shou-Lung - it was during that time period that the 2nd & 3rd modules take place, before he turned around and decided to attack Rashemen (his re-crossing the steppes is never covered by any novels - it just occurs between novels)
Ergo, the ending of the modules occurs right around the time he has finished in Shou and re-enters the Steppes.
Just so. In late Eleint 1359 DR. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:07:18
|
As for why Hubadai didn't come back, that is easy to answer.
In 1361 DR, he is probably in Cormyr. In 1362 DR, he was most likely in Waterdeep.
In either case, anything he hears about events in Ra-Khati is months or years old, confused and distorted. It's easy to assume that it refers to what had already come to pass and continue to believe that Tan Chin is no longer a threat.
Add to that, why would Bhrokiti be in danger? If she and Hubadai believed Ra-Khati safe after the Tuigan broke the Solonese at the ruins of Khushk and the unnamed adventurers were headed to Solon to destroy the lich's phylactery, she would have ridden with him to the West.
After the Golden Way, it is not implausible at all that she travelled Faerun with him, in a kind of extended honeymoon.
Of course, what she thinks of his existing concubines, particularly Dura al-Mustasib, mother to two strong sons of his, not to mention his courtship of Cormyrean noblewomen, is an open question.
Hubadai Khahan may have been a peaceful leader largely because his hardest battles are fought in the yurt.  |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:17:40
|
Obviously, he gives good yurt. 
BTW, Bhrokiti is the Deathknight Sceptenar Vasabhakti (pg.19, Open grave), so I don't think she was with Hubadai.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 19:23:50 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:31:40
|
This also sheds some light on Hubadai's personality. In the beginning of 1359 DR, he is a gifted teenage son simultaneously obsessed with earning his father's approval and so headstrong and impetuous that other khans find it easy to argue that he should not be left in sole command for the Semphar invasion.
He's not cruel, but he comes from a harsh culture. He's listed as Chaotic Neutral and he has a Wisdom score that's mediocre at best (10) compared to older khans (12).
In conquering Semphar, he demonstrates what can only be called staggering genius for a boy in sole command for the first time. He uses three seperated armies with consummate strategic brilliance, coordinates logistics with so much perfection that a complex supply chain never even becomes an issue and defeats a numerically superior force defending a series of advanced fortifications with losses that can only be called miniscule.
Even more impressively, he shows political acumen in turning Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib's ambitions to his advantage and in taking his daughter into his yurt and siring sons on her, he made sure that his role in Semphari politics could one day be something other than merely 'foreign conqueror'.
It is when he falls in love with Bhrokiti that he begins to move away from the precepts of his harsh culture. Growing up moves him from Chaotic to Lawful*, but it is Bhrokiti's influence that makes him receptive to King Azoun IV positive example rather than becoming an embittered avenger of his father, whom he previously idolised.
The modules also revealed a softer side of Yamun Khahan. In D&D simplistic alignment system, it might indeed be right to call him Lawful Evil, but that didn't change the fact that he was a loving father to Hubadai. He just took great care never to acknowledge such an 'embarrassing' sentiment in public, and, thus, unfortunately never really allowed Hubadai to know this.
To a great extent, this was probably because he was afraid that if he showed his fierce pride in and love for the son of his First Empress and his heir-to-be, he would spoil the boy, ruining what he loved in him.
*Nearly all Tuigan adults are Lawful, signifying that the customs and law of the tribes are considered paramount, even if these laws are very different from the laws of Faerun. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:41:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, Bhrokiti is the Deathknight Sceptenar Vasabhakti (pg.19, Open grave), so I don't think she was with Hubadai.
Even if she's the Sceptenar Vasabhakti in 1479, that doesn't mean that she wasn't with Hubadai in 1360-1363 DR.
After all, she was a 2nd level Wu-Jen without Wu-jen powers in 1360 DR. She can't have been one of the four heroes who destroyed Tan Chin, those would have been heroes of an epic scale. We're talking wielders of the Godslayer of Hit Points and shooters of Arrows of Slaying like the ones they used to kill Zeus.
She might have been with them, of course. Consider that the story of the 'four heroes'/'four Sceptenars'/'four-parted soul' is something known to pretty much everyone (it's a DC 15 roll to know). It's much more likely to be rather more complex in reality.
In any case, the corruption of the Sceptenars appears to have been a slow process. As the daughter of the spiritual leader of the land, it is possible that the corruption of the land affected her, even if she was far away.
Hubadai and Bhrokiti might have tried to destroy the undead legions on former Ra-Khati after they got back. They might even have financed and backed the resistance movement at first, only acting themselves when they discovered the existence of the other Sceptenars and that Bhrokhiti was fated to share their fate when she died. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 19:54:37
|
I was thinking along the same lines myself. That she lead the rebellion (Hantumah Resistance sidebar), and was eventually forced to confront him directly. The text makes it seem like this happened swiftly after Raja Thirayam's invasion, but it could have been a decade or more later that the 'final battle' occurred.
If that is the case, then Hubadai may have been one of the other 'Great Heroes' that confronted him (Bhrokiti could have been gaining in power during that time). I would say the other two heroes were the only two survivors of the first conflict - the one at the end of the modules (I note that Brian also mentions the Stone Scepter, which means Tan-Chin wasn't defeated at all, as I have already surmised).
The Stone Scepter - by it's nature - should NOT turn into a cursed item until after Tan-Chin's final defeat (and destruction). So long as the artifact retains its original purpose and powers, Tan-Chin must still be active on the Prime material plane somewhere.
I forgot about the 'soul-splitting' thingy - I will have to think on that more. I like it... just not sure how to spin it.
EDIT: At that point, Tan-Chin must have established himself as an Exarch (because he now has the equivalent of 'avatars'). Not sure, though... even demi-powers only get one avatar... perhaps he can only take full control of one at a time? (the rest of the time he is just seeing through their eyes, making sure they don't betray him).
On the other hand, I am thinking that Meilan may be a spirit currently possessing Bhrokiti... I once pegged her a succubus (she appears in quite a bit of K-T lore), but now I think she was an Alu-Fiend, at best (summoned by the Black Panther to help ruin the first empire - details of that is in Ronin Challenge). Ergo, and Alu-Fiend could still die a 'mortals death', and have a ghost 9as ssen in the Black Courser module). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 20:06:43 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:19:44
|
Given prior lore on death knights, I would think that in order for Bhrokiti to become one, she would need to become a powerful knight first.
So I'd put her corruption and fall long after the rise of Kourmira and temples to the Red Knight there. While she learned to ride with the Tuigan in 1359 DR onwards, she only turned her full energies to learning the arts of war from the priesthood of the Red Knight once she learned the full story of what had happened to Ra-Khati and her family.
Hubadai would have been able to prevent her from any rash acts by appealing to her motherly duties to their children*, but when she's in her forties, her children will be old enough so that this does not work any more.
As for the heroes who confronted Tan Chin... I wonder. Do they have to be the same ones as those who were tricked under Solon or are two years such a long time in adventuring time that it is likely that they had either succeeded in growing rich and thus retired, or succumbed to some other ill-considered adventure?
I am tempted to include at least some familiar names from the Hordelands among them. After all, the rulers of Ra-Khati and Khazari both had stakes in the outcome and both were the sort to feel a duty to their people. And one was a divine caster of epic power while the other was at least a mid-level Samurai with enough wealth to equip himself in the raiments of God-Kings.
Even if four heroes faced him in the final battle, that doesn't mean that there weren't six to eight heroes who went down there in the first place. Just saying...
My initial scenario for the death of 'Prince' Jadaran Khan doesn't work, because the Solonese invaded Khazari from the east, not the west, but I'm still tempted to make some use of concepts for it. I still think that Jadaran died in Khazari, fighting the Raja Ambucher Devayam, even if it turned out slightly differently than I originally thought.
I can't actually find any canon that says that Khazari ever recovered from the Solonese occupation. In fact, the booming trade over the Golden Way, despite the many tribes of Taangan who did not accept Yaimunnahar and thus will continue to raid caravans on it, argues rather persuasively that the shorter and more convenient route through Khazari is either even more dangerous or simply completely closed.
*Naturally they had children. In 1373 DR, Hubadai may not have made an umambigious choice of 'First Empress', still holding out hope for a Cormyrean bride, but he has plenty of potential heirs. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 20:45:21
|
I would think she stayed in Ra-Khati, and then in Guge (the new kingdom of Hantumah), as she fought a defensive retreat (over the years). I don't think she would have had any time to play mommy to anyone. Her 'knightly' skills could possibly be attributed to short time learning horse-warfare at Hubadai's side, before the invasion of her homeland (and those skills, along with her Wujen abilites, would have increased as she fought a more and more desperate war).
I think a fanfic piece is in order. I have to 'go dark' for a week (probably starting later today) - that will give me loads of time where I have nothing to do (no cable/internet for at least a week).
I'm picturing something both epic and tragic, with Hubadai coming to her aid toward the end, only to be defeated by her side (they die holding hands). There's a really good story in there.
Hantumah seems to have been built upon the ashes of ancient Anok-Imaskar (same territories). I can definitely use that.
Then Tan-Chin can go over to Thay and start slapping-around Szass-Tam for being the wanna-be newb that he is (along with Shoon VII, Larloch, Iouluam, Aumvor, Lady Saharel, etc, etc.. - all of them need to slap that upstart around). Sorry.. went off-topic there... I really do hate Szass-Tam; I used to just dislike him, but this new 'Plateau of Leng' thing just makes me nuts. Bad-enough he was a mere stripling compared to those others, but now he's going all 'pin-head' on us.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2012 20:47:01 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 21:14:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would think she stayed in Ra-Khati, and then in Guge (the new kingdom of Hantumah), as she fought a defensive retreat (over the years). I don't think she would have had any time to play mommy to anyone. Her 'knightly' skills could possibly be attributed to short time learning horse-warfare at Hubadai's side, before the invasion of her homeland (and those skills, along with her Wujen abilites, would have increased as she fought a more and more desperate war).
At what point would she have seperated from Hubadai and why?
Unless the unnamed adventurers took some rather strong steps to prevent it, she would have stayed by his side throughout his ride through Ra-Khati* and the long, hard campaign in Shou Lung.
When she desired to return to Ra-Khati, it was only to gain her father's consent for marriage to Hubadai. And she accepted Hubadai's plan of obtaining such consent with the implicit threat posed by him riding there to ask with four tumen of warriors.
As long as the threat to Ra-Khati was (seemingly) averted by Hubadai and the unnamed adventurers on the Great Chain Bridge, why would she have desired to stay any longer in a country she is mentioned as disliking? She had no desire to be the ruler of Ra-Khati and was looking for any way out of it. Once she had that way, not to mention the apparent favour of Yamun Khahan as well as Hubadai's love, why would she stay behind?
After half a year with Hubadai, she was a good Tuigan wife in the third adventure. She was proud that he was riding to war and was giving the Khahan advice on how best to conquer more lands and rule them well. She was never going to be accepted by the Ra-Khatians as a spiritual leader. She was about as spiritual as the average go-go dancer!
*In fact, if the adventurers were to have failed in a particular piece of diplomacy, she is mentioned as accepting the sacking of Sakhoi by Hubadai without blaming him. She only asks that he spares the survivors, which he does happily by taking them along as slaves. In the campaign against Shou Lung, of course, they would all have died apart from those able to flee and find something to eat in the scorched lands left by Batu Min Ho.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think a fanfic piece is in order. I have to 'go dark' for a week (probably starting later today) - that will give me loads of time where I have nothing to do (no cable/internet for at least a week).
I'm picturing something both epic and tragic, with Hubadai coming to her aid toward the end, only to be defeated by her side (they die holding hands). There's a really good story in there.
I agree that there is a good story in there, yes.
I do think that the story needs to include Khazari as well, accounting for 'Prince' Jadaran's fate . Also, the Invisible Tigers need to appear and contribute to the defeat of the Raja of Solon.
Incorporating Dura al-Mustasib and her wily father, Atabeg Ali al-Mustasib, would be a nice bonus.
Personally, I wouldn't write such a story until I had settled to my satisfaction how all loose ends stand at the beginning of the story. I'm getting there, but unfortunately, I'm in the process of the Icelandic version of a Bar-exam for the next two weeks, taking a total of five exams (the first of which starts in 12 hours and 47 minutes and is scheduled to run for 24 hours).
So I would not feel able to devote more than a passing thought to it until the end of March.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hantumah seems to have been built upon the ashes of ancient Anok-Imaskar (same territories). I can definitely use that.
Well, it seems quite a bit smaller. But the desire is there.
We know that it incorporates former Ra-Khati and either parts or the whole of the Katakoro plateu. Whether or not Khazari, in part or whole, is under undead rule is unclear. Similarly, how much of Shou Lung is subjugated or at least threathened is left somewhat ambigious.
If we take the geographic description in Open Grave literally, I'd say that only Ra-Khati and the Katakoro are included.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then Tan-Chin can go over to Thay and start slapping-around Szass-Tam for being the wanna-be newb that he is (along with Shoon VII, Larloch, Iouluam, Aumvor, Lady Saharel, etc, etc.. - all of them need to slap that upstart around). Sorry.. went off-topic there... I really do hate Szass-Tam; I used to just dislike him, but this new 'Plateau of Leng' thing just makes me nuts. Bad-enough he was a mere stripling compared to those others, but now he's going all 'pin-head' on us.
I'm actually leaning toward the 1362 DR defeat having been final to the extent that he's not Tan Chin any longer. His consciousness was shattered and while he may have been able to infect and take over others, this doesn't mean that his personality will ever be whole again or that these four are capable of rational or sane thought. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 22:57:27
|
1373 DR, the State of the Ruins, Solon after the Raja
I have established to my satisfaction that Raja Ambuchar Devayam controlled Solon at least since ca 1300 DR and that he went to war against Ra-Khati a total of three times in that period. First was the war at the turning of the century, the one where Khuskh was destroyed. Second was the time he seized the chance during Yamun Khahan's campaigns to threathen Ra-Khati, but suffered a defeat to Hubadai Orlok at the Great Chain Bridge in Eleint of 1359 DR. The third was his invasion of Ra-Khati early in 1360 DR, when he successfully brushed aside meager resistance and his undead horde poured into the Katakoro plateu.
The final goal of Raja Ambuchar Devayam/Tan Chin appears to have been the conquest of the former lands of Anok-Imaskar, including a lot of modern Shou Lung. As a result, Solon, probably picked fairly bare of powerful Imaskari magic by the lich, was now pretty much useless to him. So did he just leave it empty for anyone to occupy?
He may have. But in my campaign, he did not. It was mentioned that among his armies there were human priests, rakhasha, oni and others who were not among the living dead. Since he once had an army of Durpari dissidents, it seems that he once had people with goals different to his under his command. Of course, he could merely have tricked all these people and monsters into helping him.
But a good villain is one with the ability to forge a team out of individuals with different, but compatible goals and to maximise the synergistic benefits from horizontal intergration. In other words, a good villain is happy to cooperate with other villains who want to bring their own particular brand of tyranny to markets where he does not intend to compete.
As such, I believe that he enlisted some powerful rakhasha, not to mention heretical wizards and clerics from the Shining Lands, as well as some oni and perhaps even undead from the Raurin and Semphar, and promised them that in return for their help in defeating the kingdoms of the Katakoro Shan, they would be free to rule the former lands of Solon once he was once more Emperor of Anok-Imaskar. Of course, they would owe him ultimate fealty, but he'd not be a troublesome overlord, as he didn't really care much for Semphar or anything to the south of it.
While I don't see any reason for him to weaken his own forces before his war in Shou Lung, I also think that taking self-willed creatures who don't want to be there with him would have been counterproductive. Rakhasha lords, evil priests, undead evil priests, evil wizards and liches, etc., if these beings were focused on ruling a revitalised Solon and not on a war against Shou Lung, they would provide Tan Chin with a more valuable service in preventing any threat to him from the West than in being dragged unwillingly with his armies into Shou Lung.
Which is why I imagine that if Caliph Abu Bakr carries out his intention of sending someone to explore the ruins of Solon in 1374 DR, he will be rather amazed to discover a thriving city ruled by monsters and undead, busily building strength* for a future campaign of terror against their neighbours.
Oh, and while power over Solon would be shared in accordance with complex and paranoid agreements with failsafes and guarantees worked out over a century or so, that still wouldn't be enough to prevent the ruling nobility of monsters and undead from double-crossing one another in various complex ways not mentioned in the exhaustively detailed magical agreements by which they are all bound.
I expect that many of the undead that made the area between Khazari and Semphar hazardous in the last decade actually came from there and not former Ra-Khati, as the Taangan and Semphari previously believed. After all, Solon had been covered by a volcanic eruption! There couldn't still be activity there, it must be hordes of undead on the former territories.
I find the idea of trade between the undead realm on the Katakoro and the undead/human/monster realm of Solon fascinating. Zombies and skeletons don't eat, but ghouls do. New undead are created by magical power, which is something that can be harvested and traded with the appropriate means.
Captured sentients are always valuable, being useful for sacrifices that release magical energies. The Solonese live in lands where most of the Imaskari artifacts easily found have been discovered by Tan Chin, but the Katakoro undead probably have less magical lore and scholarship in the decades after Tan Chin's fall. They might welcome insights from the former Durpari dissidents who are now either obscenely old humans or newly made intelligent undead, as well as powerful priests of terrible deities or wizards of blasphemous studies.
*While among the rulers would be fairly powerful mages, priests and rakhasha lords, none of them had the kind of uber-duber-Imaskari artificier powers that enabled Tan Chin to create thousands of undead per day. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Mysteries of Solon and Semphar recent events
